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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Jun 24, 2024 5:21 pm

    That means the gov. will have to support the airlines as those new planes won't perform as well (less pax carried &/ not as far) to make enough money for them to stay afloat on their own.
    Perhaps they could buy/lease some C-919s in the meantime?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919#Specifications

    https://youtu.be/axZ7YTZgcHg

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Jun 24, 2024 5:49 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:That means the gov. will have to support the airlines as those new planes won't perform as well (less pax carried &/ not as far) to make enough money for them to stay afloat on their own.
    Perhaps they could buy/lease some C-919s in the meantime?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919#Specifications

    https://youtu.be/axZ7YTZgcHg

    Tsavo, please stop posting misinformation from false sources. We already discussed that the kommersant article was full of mistakes and completely incorrect.

    There may be some weight increase but it does not affect speed or flight level, and for sure it is not of the weight increase amount mentioned by kommersant.

    Simple flying is just posting again the same bs and you are posting it again.

    Western sources (and you) believe that repeating a lie many times makes it reality.

    The number of passengers of the MC-21-310 will be up to 211.
    The one with about 150 passengers will be the shortened MC-21-200 (i.e. more or less equivalent of A319).

    Again there are delays in the import substitution and certification of the airplane, but nothing insormontabile.

    Russia is not going to import C919. It is a western plane, like all of the Brazilian embraers as well.

    China does not produce its internal systems, who come from US, EU or Israel. That means that it is sanctionable.

    Otherwise Russia would have already MC-21 with western systems in service and would not have stopped producing sj-100 until the import substitution os completed.

    Furthermore Russia has never operated the C919 and the same airplane has not a long history in service. Why should Russia spend a lot of money on training pilots and maintenance personnel on a new plane, also helping China fix its childhood diseases instead of concentrating on its own issues?

    If China could break western sanctions anyway, it would  make more sense to get some airbus A320 as stop gap, at least russian airlines and pilots are trained for operating and maintaining them.

    Hopefully by next year russian airlines will start getting MC-21 and Tu-214 so we can stop this kind of discussions.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Jun 24, 2024 6:14 pm

    "there's no smoke w/o a fire", so it's still unclear what & how bad the weight problem is. Competitors & interested parties always exagerate things & talk past each other. Do u have an ironclad proof that it's an absolute lie, with verified specs?
    Recently Russia started to fix the Western engines & buy out leased planes so they can operate abroad; China can get parts for her C-919s & send them to Russia to keep her exported/leased planes flying.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 25, 2024 7:00 am

    That means the gov. will have to support the airlines as those new planes won't perform as well (less pax carried &/ not as far) to make enough money for them to stay afloat on their own.

    The costs to keep current western aircraft flying will be terrible because outsourcing spare parts from third parties always adds costs and time delays that cost more money than carrying around a bit of extra weight.

    These new Russian planes are being rushed into serial production so they will be a little rough around the edges, but most problems can be identified and fixed over time, and the attention and money being put into the Russian airline designers coffers will mean more opportunity for R and D to improve and perfect both design and production... it would not surprise me that with their new generation engines that once the have production ticking over they can take the time to make improvements that will comfortably exceed the performance of western leased aircraft soon enough.

    Even if they don't, western aircraft are no longer and option for them anyway.

    China does not produce its internal systems, who come from US, EU or Israel. That means that it is sanctionable.

    The irony is that given time the west is going to start attacking China with sanctions and China is going to want to buy Russian engines and internal systems until they master engines and internal systems for themselves.

    The EU is putting sanctions and tariffs on Chinese cars, so China is going to respond with their own trade restrictions on things that will hurt the EU in return... this is going to make imports from Russia look even more appealing for Chinese companies and most European car makers are going to get hit with a double whammy because their cheap energy is gone thanks to sanctions on Russia and now sanctions on Chinese parts they use to build their own cars with will get sanctions too no doubt. The ones that suffer the most are European consumers who have to buy overpriced European cars and fly around Russian airspace on international flights adding hours and dollars to their ticket prices.

    "there's no smoke w/o a fire", so it's still unclear what & how bad the weight problem is.

    Anyone who believes that doesn't know how a cigarette works... plus western sources love to blow smoke with no fire because then they can say fire is implied.

    Equally the west likes to jump up and down and claim fog and cloud are smoke...

    Do u have an ironclad proof that it's an absolute lie, with verified specs?

    You bring what you admit to be hostile western propaganda and demand it be refuted with hard proven facts?

    Stacking the cards makes a hollow victory.

    Recently Russia started to fix the Western engines & buy out leased planes so they can operate abroad;

    A stopgap solution because these aircraft have no future in Russia.

    For China it makes more sense to set up support locations around the planet to make purchasing the aircraft more appealing for foreign and international operators.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Jun 25, 2024 7:30 am

    You bring what you admit to be hostile western propaganda and demand it be refuted with hard proven facts?
    is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?
    A stopgap solution because these aircraft have no future in Russia.
    I bet they'll use them for a lot longer than u think, just like all those Antonov planes they still don't (& won't) have anything to replace with anytime soon, & in needed numbers.
    OTH, if they get Chinese planes, those will also be used for a long time.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:34 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    You bring what you admit to be hostile western propaganda and demand it be refuted with hard proven facts?
    is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?
    The article from kommersant contained so much lies and bs that made me vomit.
    They probably read somewhere that Russia wanted also to develop the shortened version of the MC-21 with about 150-160 passengers in one class configuration (similar to the airbus A319) and said instead that the base version of the MC-21 (the MC-21-310) could carry less passenger than a320 and boeing 737. Which is completely false. And in addition Russia has also planned a stretched version which will be a little bit longer than the A321 (and in similar configurations will be able to carry more passengers than the A321, even if probably it will not, because russian airlines offer more leg space than European ones).

    Then the same kommersant journalists read that one of the experimental MC-21 used to certify import substitution made a flight which did not reach typical cruise altitude and speed (probably because they did a short flight and only wanted to check some parameters) and "inferred" that the MC-21 was slower than their counterparts and could not reach typical cruise altitude.

    This is a complete bullshit and would be enough to invalidate every other thing written in that article.

    I am not an expert in kommersant in general, but that article is written by someone who either does not understand anything and /or want to damage the russian aerospace industry credibility.

    And who repeats such lies is just a troll.
    Read this very thread, a few pages ago, and you will see that all of those points have been already properly refuted.

    And the value of the exact overweight mentioned by them is probably just pulled out of their ass.

    Maybe they are not western propaganda in general, but such lies were used and repeated by western propaganda and Ukrainian trolls.
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    A stopgap solution because these aircraft have no future in Russia.
    I bet they'll use them for a lot longer than u think, just like all those Antonov planes they still don't (& won't) have anything to replace with anytime soon, & in needed numbers.
    OTH, if they get Chinese planes, those will also be used for a long time.

    Why on earth should Russia spend money to operate something that has not been used long in China, has no trained pilots and maintenance personnel for it and we do not even know if it suffers from childhood diseases?

    Also they cannot be sold to Russia because their western content. if they could be sold, it would mean there are no sanctions, then a few A320 as a stop gap would be better, since russian airlines, maintenance personnel and pilots are already experienced with them.

    And anyway,  now that the russian civil aeronautical industry has the conditions to regrow, why do you want to cripple it, introducing another rival that could eat market's share?

    The c919 is worse than the MC-21-310 in everything.

    And even if they wanted to do an import substitute version of it (China is not able to, but Russia could help), it will not be ready before the MC-21 will have been already in service  since at least 3 years.
    Did you forget that Russia had to repeat many of the certification tests for the MC-21? Only a part of it were only component tests. Many of them required remaking aircraft tests with all the new systems.

    Anyway, Russian airlines have now enough planes to fly at least until 2030, provided they can properly maintain them.

    Luckily most western aircrafts in the fleet of major russian airlines are still young so they will not be a problem (if they have enough spare parts to support regular maintenance).

    The only thing they need from China is possibly some support getting additional spares for their airbus and boeing, even if Russia is also working into producing their own alternatives for the spares.

    Of course, they cannot yet recover the initial plans of expanding the routes and the number of flights as it was planned before 2020, but that is a matter of time.

    Latest by 2026 Aeroflot and others will start receiving , MC-21-310, SJ-100, Tu-214 (3 person cockpit) , etc. once their production rates reaches a decent level most problems for the narrowbodies in Russia will be just a matter of time

    As far as Antonov Planes that is a matter for the military transport fleet. (Except for the An-24, which is going to replaced by the TVRS-44 Ladoga and by the Il-114).

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:05 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?

    Yes, starting with its ownership.
    I am not even sure if there is anything to comment further, considering that you are a troll.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:13 am

    https://aviation21.ru/v-kazani-zaversheno-texnicheskoe-perevooruzhenie-tryox-cexov-dlya-vypuska-tu-214/

    In Kazan, the technical re-equipment of three workshops for the production of Tu-214 has been completed
    06.24.2024

    At the Kazan Aviation Plant named after S.P. Gorbunov completed the technical re-equipment of the pre-production workshops, mechanical assembly production and flight test base. Completion of the work will ensure an increase in the production of the Tu-214 medium-haul passenger aircraft. This was reported by the United Aircraft Corporation.

    The program for complete import substitution at the enterprise has entered a new stage. For nine facilities, including the modular and final assembly shops, conclusions of compliance and permits for commissioning were received. The heat treatment and coatings production rate is currently 86 percent.

    First Deputy General Director of UAC, Managing Director of Tupolev JSC Konstantin Timofeev said that the comprehensive development program for the aviation industry sets Tupolev the task of increasing serial production of the Tu-214. To do this, it is necessary to expand production capacity as soon as possible. “So far we are on schedule with these indicators, even with some advance on contracting,” said Konstantin Timofeev.

    The general contractor of the work is JSC Kazan Giproniiaviaprom named after B.I. Tikhomirov. As part of the state program for the development of the military-industrial complex, KazGAP is carrying out capital construction projects at ten facilities of the Kazan Aviation Plant worth about 30 billion rubles.

    Earlier it became known that the Tu-214 RA-64509 aircraft was restored to airworthiness and flew to Minsk, where civil aviation plant No. 407 will be painted in the UAC corporate livery. This board will be used as a flying laboratory for testing a number of components and components of systems and on-board equipment under the program of complete import substitution, as well as for the modernization and further development of the Tu-214 platform.

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    Post  kvs Tue Jun 25, 2024 2:12 pm

    Tzavo is acting the typical denier role. Pushing Gish gallop drivel and demanding that people debunk it even though it has been debunked over and over.

    It is much easier to deposit an informational turd than to present valuable information.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 25, 2024 2:16 pm

    It is still progress, as for the time being he used to link irrelevant shit sometimes witch changed titles.
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    Post  Scorpius Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:23 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://simpleflying.com/mc-21-6-tons-heavier/
    This is a lie by Kommersant. The aircraft isn't 6 tons heavier.

    Do you know where they got the "extra weight" from?
    In the first presentations, the maximum take-off weight of the MS-21-300 is 79,250 kilograms.
    Now it has been reported that the maximum take-off weight of the MS-21-310 will be 85,000 kilograms.
    We get exactly the same 5.75 tons that the plane allegedly weighed down.
    In reality, this is just an increase in the maximum take-off weight.
    About a flight altitude of 7 kilometers and a range of no more than 2000 kilometers is complete nonsense
    The Tu-154M flew at an altitude of 11 kilometers, having a lower thrust-to-weight ratio than the MS-21-310. Have the laws of physics and aerodynamics changed since then?

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:03 pm

    ..once their production rates reaches a decent level most problems for the narrowbodies in Russia will be just a matter of time.
    that should be the bottom line! what is the "decent level", & where is the guarantee it'll be reached in time, if ever?
    Over 30 years ago I talked to 1 then Soviet Aeroflot pilot who said that there's shortage of new planes- in the 1980s their production was a lot bigger than ever since.
    Then & now the priority was mil. aircraft; I won't be surprised if they convert some mil. cargo planes to carry passengers. It'll still be more comfortable to spend a few hours in them than in on a train ride lasting days or up to a week. Those traveling to Kamchatka will still need to fly from the Far Eastern railheads.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:55 am

    ..Aeroflot may refuse to operate the Tu-214 due to the fact that the operation of Kazan airliners is more expensive due to logistics costs, the presence of a three-member crew and higher fuel consumption.
    “Of course, an aircraft developed in the 90s will always be more expensive to operate than later developments,” ..
    At the same time, he believes that there is no point in abandoning the production of new Tu-214s, as they could be useful to other airlines with an older fleet of aircraft. “We have many airlines where the aircraft fleet is quite old, and to replace it the Tu-214 will be a good help, which will allow these companies to maintain and increase their share in the air transportation market in our country,” ..In the spring of 2024, the authorities explained the reasons for the delays in the production of MC-21. In Rostec, in particular, they said that the final appearance of the airliner has not yet been formed, in addition, due to the replacement of parts, the weight characteristics of the MS-21 have changed. However, in a global sense, the aircraft manufacturing industry has so far revised its priorities towards combat aviation
    . https://ircity.ru/text/transport/2024/06/26/73753649/
    So, the Tu-214 isn't going to be terribly popular with the major airlines, but may get additional orders by the military.
    As for the MC-21, he said it, so further comments r unnecessary at this point.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:21 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:However, in a global sense, the aircraft manufacturing industry has so far revised its priorities towards combat aviation. https://ircity.ru/text/transport/2024/06/26/73753649/
    So, the Tu-214 isn't going to be terribly popular with the major airlines, but may get additional orders by the military.
    As for the MC-21, he said it, so further comments r unnecessary at this point.
    That is a lie. For example Tupolev used the new building that was meant to build the PAK DA prototype to build the Tu-214. If anything they are assigning quite a lot of resources to building the civilian aircraft.

    I also saw other articles on the site. They doubt the industry's capability to build PD-14 engines at scale. That is baloney. They produce 5x Il-76MD-90A a year. That is a quad engine aircraft. It has as many engines as 10x Tu-214 or MC-21 like aircraft. The same factory which makes the PS-90 makes the PD-14. It uses the same resources.

    As for the Tu-214 vs the MC-21 like I said before I think spending more resources on the Tu-214 is a waste of resources at this point. Tupolev should be making or modernizing more bombers.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 27, 2024 4:19 pm

    is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?

    Owned by an Uzbek worth over 14 billion US dollars... I am sure he is a sweet guy who is nice to everyone he meets and does not get involved in politics...

    I bet they'll use them for a lot longer than u think, just like all those Antonov planes they still don't (& won't) have anything to replace with anytime soon, & in needed numbers.
    OTH, if they get Chinese planes, those will also be used for a long time.

    So you think buying non Russian planes to replace Soviet era planes is a good idea... when the non Russian planes they should buy in your opinion are modernised Soviet era planes.

    that should be the bottom line! what is the "decent level", & where is the guarantee it'll be reached in time, if ever?

    OK, lets pretend it takes them longer to achieve the numbers they want to achieve.

    Buying planes from China wont change that. And the costs of buying a different aircraft type that would need engines and avionics to be developed for it and integrated and tested for flight and then pass all the certificates for it to be allowed to carry passengers commercially means it is not going to be ready for use in time to solve the problems you pretend might occur.

    The fact of the matter is that the Russian aircraft are closer to operational service and serial production than a new plane based on Chinese designed and produced upgrades of Soviet aircraft could be modified and Russianised and tested and cleared for serial production and civilian passenger use could be... by quite a margin, because a lot of negotiations would need to be made in the first place too.

    Then & now the priority was mil. aircraft;

    Actually I would say the opposite is true... the number of Tu-214s and Superjets and MS-21s being built for the civilian airlines between now and 2030 massively outnumbers the number of transport planes the Russians seem to be making for their military.

    Planes like the Ladoga and the Baikal are also being made for civilian use to replace An-24/25/26 types and An-2s respectively, and of course the Il-114 is also being serial produced soon to also replace the 5 ton payload Antonovs and other types... but the real focus seems to be civilian aircraft production.

    ..Aeroflot may refuse to operate the Tu-214 due to the fact that the operation of Kazan airliners is more expensive due to logistics costs, the presence of a three-member crew and higher fuel consumption.

    Sound like a change in leadership is needed at Aeroflot... the costs of operating Tu-214s is very unlikely to be more than the costs of operating western aircraft that are under sanctions.

    Perhaps a law banning Russian airlines from buying or new leases of Airbus or Boeing aircraft or other western types needs to be put in place...

    Of course them refusing these aircraft essentially just frees up more Tupolevs to other airlines and puts more pressure on MS-21 and Superjet production to fill the gaps for Aeroflot.

    So, the Tu-214 isn't going to be terribly popular with the major airlines, but may get additional orders by the military.

    They haven't operated it yet but are making claims it will be no good... sounds like propaganda to me.

    As for the Tu-214 vs the MC-21 like I said before I think spending more resources on the Tu-214 is a waste of resources at this point. Tupolev should be making or modernizing more bombers.

    As a gap filler only I would agree, but I think it has potential to continue production after civilian airlines in Russias needs are met to meet the needs of the Russian military to replace a lot of obsolete types they currently use.

    It also can be converted into the Tu-330.

    The other alternative would be to take the Superjet or MS-21 and use one of these to replace these older military aircraft and develop a 30-35 ton payload cargo plane from their design the way Tupolev was going to do with the Tu-214.

    I would say with modern engines the Tu-214 would be a useful aircraft.

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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 27, 2024 5:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:As a gap filler only I would agree, but I think it has potential to continue production after civilian airlines in Russias needs are met to meet the needs of the Russian military to replace a lot of obsolete types they currently use.

    It also can be converted into the Tu-330.
    The thing is, it made sense to keep the Tu-214 available as a more sanction proof aircraft before the Russification of the MC-21 started. That could be used for government purposes. But now with the Russification of the MC-21 the Tu-214 is totally redundant.

    As for the Tu-330 it is just simply worse than the SSJ-100 on every commercial metric. You might argue about the better rough field performance because the engines are higher. But the Russian government has been investing in upgrading all the airports. So this issue will become moot eventually.

    The Tu-330 also suffers from the same issue as the SSJ-100 in that it uses an engine not made in Russia. It would also need the PD-8 engine just the same.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:41 pm

    So you think buying non Russian planes to replace Soviet era planes is a good idea... when the non Russian planes they should buy in your opinion are modernised Soviet era planes.
    the Il-476/96-400M & An-124-100 r all deeply modernized Soviet era planes too.
    OK, lets pretend it takes them longer to achieve the numbers they want to achieve.
    which means they won't have enough Russian made planes to meet the demand in the meantime.
    Buying planes from China wont change that. And the costs of buying a different aircraft type that would need engines and avionics to be developed for it and integrated and tested for flight and then pass all the certificates for it to be allowed to carry passengers commercially means it is not going to be ready for use in time to solve the problems you pretend might occur.
    it may not be as hard as u expect; it's always better to have alternatives in case other planes not ready.
    The fact of the matter is that the Russian aircraft are closer to operational service and serial production..
    they may be "moved to the right" again & again, as up to now, with no end in sight.
    Actually I would say the opposite is true... the number of Tu-214s and Superjets and MS-21s being built for the civilian airlines between now and 2030 massively outnumbers the number of transport planes the Russians seem to be making for their military.
    that's the plan which may not be realized, as with many other of their plans in the past.
    Sound like a change in leadership is needed at Aeroflot... the costs of operating Tu-214s is very unlikely to be more than the costs of operating western aircraft that are under sanctions.
    too bad they won't need ur advice...
    they mastering/ed engine repairs, substitution of parts, & buying many (if not all) of the seized planes that r not under sanctions anymore. Any sanctions can be bypassed by some1 with a strong will & $.
    Perhaps a law banning Russian airlines from buying or new leases of Airbus or Boeing aircraft or other western types needs to be put in place...
    that will kill many airlines & add wear & tear on the rest of them.
    Of course them refusing these aircraft essentially just frees up more Tupolevs to other airlines and puts more pressure on MS-21 and Superjet production to fill the gaps for Aeroflot.
    and it'll give more reasons to keep operating their Western planes in the meantime, before the smoke clears.
    They haven't operated it yet but are making claims it will be no good... sounds like propaganda to me.
    they do/did operate some Soviet era Tu-204; the Tu-214 has more range & is an improved model.
    They could also revive the Tu-334 & develop a famaly of them,  if they don't want to buy the ARJ-21 that has cargo versions capable of hauling 10T.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:01 pm

    You can forget the ARJ-21 and C919 Chinese aircraft. They both use Western engines and other components.
    This will only change after the CJ-500 and CJ-1000 engines become available and mass produced. Probably in like 2030.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:10 pm

    lancelot wrote:The thing is, it made sense to keep the Tu-214 available as a more sanction proof aircraft before the Russification of the MC-21 started. That could be used for government purposes. But now with the Russification of the MC-21 the Tu-214 is totally redundant.
    They are in theory in a similar niche, and due to about a 13% of imported components in the tu-214, they had to do import substitution on that as well.
    However it is important to pursue both. Given current situation, they cannot risk to have another delay block everything putting all chances on one basket.

    Aeroflot will not take them, but Rossiya and Rosvet (formerly known as Redwings) will gladly take them.
    Furthermore there are a lot of potential uses for possible Tu-214 variants.

    And it could be interesting for cargo airlines.
    The cargo version of the Tu-204 can carry slightly more than 25 tons of payload, probably a dedicated Tu-214 freighter can carry even more

    lancelot wrote:As for the Tu-330 it is just simply worse than the SSJ-100 on every commercial metric. You might argue about the better rough field performance because the engines are higher. But the Russian government has been investing in upgrading all the airports. So this issue will become moot eventually.

    The Tu-330 also suffers from the same issue as the SSJ-100 in that it uses an engine not made in Russia. It would also need the PD-8 engine just the same.

    I believe you are mixing up the Tu-334 with the Tu-330.
    The Tu-334 is a proposed regional aircraft based on the same (shortened) fuselage section as the Tu-204, and using Ukrainian D-436 engines. I agree that that aircraft is worse in every characteristics in comparison to SJ-100.

    By the way, the Chinese ARJ-21 is also much worse than the SJ100.

    The  Tu-330 instead was a proposed medium-size transport aircraft (military cargo), which in theory was designed for commonality with the Tu-204/Tu-214 civilian airliner series, in order to simplify production and minimize costs of manufacturing, maintenance and parts.
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 26 UAC%2C_RA-97001%2C_Tupolev_Tu-330_%2849581609642%29

    According to public available data, its proposed characteristics were very promising. It should have had a wide cargo bay (4 m, wider than the one of the il-76), and, on paper, very good payload/range characteristics.
    Unfortunately it remained stillborn.

    But yes in theory after the acute need of new aircrafts for the russian airlines are covered, after 2029 some of the production capabilities for the Tu-214 could be dedicated instead to the Tu-330 military cargo aircraft, maybe in a modernised version and with a PD-16 or PD-18 engine, which will need to be developed anyway for the MC-21-400 and its extra long range version.
    Tsavo Lion wrote:they do/did operate some Soviet era Tu-204; the Tu-214 has more range & is an improved model.
    They could also revive the Tu-334 & develop a famaly of them,  if they don't want to buy the ARJ-21 that has cargo versions capable of hauling 10T.

    Why do they need to revive the Tu-334? They already have the SJ100. If they need they can do a stretched version and a shortened version of it.
    They could do also a cargo version if needed, and it will be way better than that ARJ-21 crap.
    The Tupulev airplanes that I would really see instead are the Tu-324/Tu-414 regional jets and their business jet versions. You can read about them in other pages of this thread.
    Actually Tsavo, please read this thread instead of posting always the same things over and over again.

    lancelot likes this post

    GarryB
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 26 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 28, 2024 7:44 am

    The thing is, it made sense to keep the Tu-214 available as a more sanction proof aircraft before the Russification of the MC-21 started. That could be used for government purposes. But now with the Russification of the MC-21 the Tu-214 is totally redundant.

    I think the Tu-214 still makes sense simply because it is in low rate serial production and right now it is a Russian aircraft not subject to sanctions by the west.

    By producing Tu-214s you take some pressure off the production of Superjet and MS-21 aircraft and get Russian aircraft available for use replacing western types faster.

    The time it would take to stop production and change all the equipment and tooling and training to start making a different type, not to mention the cost, it doesn't make sense that now, at a time when they need Russian planes to replace western planes that they should stop production of a Russian plane.

    As for the Tu-330 it is just simply worse than the SSJ-100 on every commercial metric.

    That doesn't matter, it wont be a commercial transport plane... it will primarily be used for the Military to replace the An-12 and fill the gap the original Il-76 with a 40 ton payload capacity was filling.

    You might argue about the better rough field performance because the engines are higher. But the Russian government has been investing in upgrading all the airports. So this issue will become moot eventually.

    My main concern is that a lot of An-12s need to be replaced over the next few years and there does not seem to be any great urgency to fill that gap with anything.

    Of course Tu-330s are not going to be ready before Il-276s could be ready, but I think both designs are different enough and also both based on aircraft designs in serial production, it makes sense to look at making them both.


    The Tu-330 also suffers from the same issue as the SSJ-100 in that it uses an engine not made in Russia. It would also need the PD-8 engine just the same.

    More demand for Russian engines is a good thing.

    the Il-476/96-400M & An-124-100 r all deeply modernized Soviet era planes too.

    Made in Russia though.

    The only problem with the An-124 was that the engine was made in the Ukraine but they have localised parts production to the point where they can take planes out of storage and get them flying again if they need them.

    which means they won't have enough Russian made planes to meet the demand in the meantime.

    So there will be fewer planes to fly people around and therefore the ones they have will be used more intensively.

    it may not be as hard as u expect; it's always better to have alternatives in case other planes not ready.

    I don't agree, I would hope Russians would rather not fly than get new Boeings and new Airbuses...

    they may be "moved to the right" again & again, as up to now, with no end in sight.

    From what I am seeing demand for flights in Russia is not a huge problem, and most flights to the EU are banned so they wont need them for that either.

    that's the plan which may not be realized, as with many other of their plans in the past.

    Doesn't really matter a lot... the sky will not fall if they planned for 1030 planes to be made by 2030 and 2031 comes and they have only made 980... when 2030 approaches they might find 1030 planes was actually rather more than they needed and they might even scale it back and have already started Tu-330 projects and other Tu-214 purchases for military use.

    too bad they won't need ur advice...

    Buying Boeings and Airbuses was the fuckup that got them into this position... if they want to repeat then I would say it would be time for the government to step in and remind them they are the national airlines and have responsibilities to Russian passengers and also Russian plane makers.

    Any sanctions can be bypassed by some1 with a strong will & $.

    But fundamentally bypassing sanctions is being a crack addict not wanting to give up something that is clearly bad for you.

    Spending dollars to be able to make someone elses parts to fly someone elses planes when they have banished you from using them is stupid and only makes sense over a short term until you can develop your own planes and can legitimately buy official parts for them to properly service and support them.

    It should be a desperate measure of last resort, and should not be something you do so you can start using their products as soon as the sanctions are lifted because they may never be lifted... and even if they are Putin might ban their use in Russian airlines as a punishment to those companies trying to inflict damage on Russia and the Russian economy.

    that will kill many airlines & add wear & tear on the rest of them.

    Perhaps Airlines that want to support western companies that just tried to kill the Russian economy and Russian people in general deserve Euthanasia.

    and it'll give more reasons to keep operating their Western planes in the meantime, before the smoke clears.

    The corruption runs deep... would call it Stockholm syndrome... but it is probably more about wanting the bribes to come back...

    they do/did operate some Soviet era Tu-204; the Tu-214 has more range & is an improved model.
    They could also revive the Tu-334 & develop a famaly of them,

    The Tu-334 makes sense, but it seems Aeroflot is as Russiaphobic as the west is.

    All those Harvard and Oxford educations I suspect.


    According to public available data, its proposed characteristics were very promising. It should have had a wide cargo bay (4 m, wider than the one of the il-76), and, on paper, very good payload/range characteristics.
    Unfortunately it remained stillborn.

    It was stillborn because Russian airlines were buying Airbus and Boeing products instead of Tupolevs.

    Now they are going for Russian planes this variant starts to make more sense, though considering its niche perhaps engines above the wing might be an improvement for rough field use?

    But yes in theory after the acute need of new aircrafts for the russian airlines are covered, after 2029 some of the production capabilities for the Tu-214 could be dedicated instead to the Tu-330 military cargo aircraft, maybe in a modernised version and with a PD-16 or PD-18 engine, which will need to be developed anyway for the MC-21-400 and its extra long range version.

    The whole purpose of the PD series of engines is that it should be scalable in thrust rating so gaps can be filled without needing a completely new engine design starting from scratch each time.

    This means different engines with different power ratings make good sense... would like to see them expand into making turboprops based on some of the PD types.

    lancelot
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 26 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 28, 2024 8:03 am

    GarryB wrote:I think the Tu-214 still makes sense simply because it is in low rate serial production and right now it is a Russian aircraft not subject to sanctions by the west.
    Except it is not in serial production. They stopped production and moved it to an entirely new building. It also used some Western avionics and other systems which will now have to be replaced. And tested.

    GarryB wrote:By producing Tu-214s you take some pressure off the production of Superjet and MS-21 aircraft and get Russian aircraft available for use replacing western types faster.
    This is false. Because the Tu-214 uses the exact same engine and avionics suppliers as the MC-21. Aviadvigatel and KRET. Worse of all is that the PS-90 engines the Tu-214 uses are more labor intensive than the PD-14 engines used in the MC-21. i.e. it is a worse engine that takes longer to build.

    What it will do is ensure the further longevity of the PS-90 engine and further pushes back increases in PD-14 production. Which does not help the industry in any way.

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