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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 11, 2023 10:53 am

    By 2030 the PD-8 might should be rather cheaper and also widely used and available engine so re-engining them at that time might make the most sense.

    I seem to remember that the French actually offered to the Russians for the Russians to make the hot sections of these engines for Russian planes but also all planes that use these French engines because at the time they were being made in the US and the US were overcharging them.

    The offer was made to try to keep the Russians using French engines at the time too.

    These articles now claim the hot sections were made in France?

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    Post  lancelot Thu May 11, 2023 5:48 pm

    From what I understand the hot section was designed and assembled by Safran in France. But a lot of the parts in the hot section were subcontracted to Precision Castparts, who actually made them, this is a US company owned by Warren Buffet. The deal was Safran would build the hot section and deliver already assembled hot sections to PowerJet in Russia where they would be mated to a UEC Saturn made cold section. PowerJet is a joint venture between UEC Saturn and Safran. This is similar to how CFM works, a joint venture between French Safran and US GE. CFM makes engines for the A320. Except in that case it is Safran which makes the cold section and GE makes the hot section. Each company has full intellectual property rights to the components they design and manufacture.

    Precision Castparts has a quasi monopoly on production of certain engine parts in the West. They were asking a lot of money to expand production of certain parts for the SaM146 engine. What Safran proposed back when that happened was subcontracting the production of the engine parts which were made at Precision Castparts to Russian enterprises instead. But Russia decided to fund the development of the PD-8 engine with their own IP thus cutting the French completely out of the deal. After the issues with lack of reliability on the engine due to bad design of the combustion chamber, which was responsibility of the French, I think the Russian side of the business had enough of them.

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    Post  Kiko Tue May 16, 2023 3:08 am

    The MS-21-310 aircraft may receive a version with a larger passenger capacity, 05.15.2023.

    Manturov: the MS-21-310 aircraft can get a version with a larger passenger capacity.

    Several modifications of the domestic MS-21 aircraft are being worked on, but now the task of creating the basic version of the MS-21-310 is in the first place. This was announced on Monday, May 15, by Deputy Prime Minister - Head of the Russian Ministry of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov.

    “First of all, we are solving the problem of national security and technological sovereignty in the strategic direction of civil aviation, but at the same time, no one has canceled the economy. Therefore, the study of various options for the development of the MS-21 family for the future, of course, is also underway," he said in an interview with TASS.

    Manturov noted the need to work on various variants of the liner, including a version that provides a capacity for 220-250 passengers.

    Earlier, on April 7, it became known that the mass production of MS-21 airliners with Russian PD-14 engines is planned to begin in 2024, the first six aircraft will be delivered in the same year.

    The day before, Vadim Badekha, General Director of the Rostec United Engine Corporation, said that UEC-Perm Motors had begun mass production of the PD-14 engine for the Russian medium-haul aircraft MS-21-310.

    MS-21 is a new generation Russian passenger aircraft. The liner is focused on the most demanded segment of the air transportation market and is being created on the basis of the latest developments in the field of aircraft construction. Its capacity will be from 163 to 211 passengers.

    On January 27, Rostec CEO Sergei Chemezov said that Russia needs its own modern aircraft in order to oust Boeing and Airbus from the fleet . He noted that the country needs its own aircraft - modern and in large numbers, which, according to him, is the key task of the civil aircraft industry.

    https://iz.ru/1513356/2023-05-16/samolet-ms-21-310-mozhet-poluchit-versiiu-bolshei-vmestimosti-passazhirov

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue May 16, 2023 4:00 am

    Manturov is talking about the MC-21-400. This would require the new PD-14M engine.

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    Post  Kiko Tue May 16, 2023 9:01 pm

    Further details:

    D. Manturov: we need to work out a version of the MC-21 for 250 passengers, 05.16.2023.

    It is planned to complete the formation of the Russified appearance of the MS-21 aircraft by the end of 2024informedDeputy Prime Minister - Head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia Denis Manturov in an interview with the TASS agency.

    At the end of 2022, tests of the MS-21 with a Russian wing and a PD-14 engine were completed, the Federal Air Transport Agency issued an approval for changes to the design of the liner. “Now, based on these results, the rest of the systems and assemblies are being replaced, we must receive all approvals and complete the formation of the Russified appearance of the aircraft by the end of 2024,” Manturov said.

    The minister also explained the prospects for creating a more spacious version of the aircraft. According to him, now all forces are focused on creating a completely import-independent version of MS-21-310rus, the task of ensuring national security and technological sovereignty of civil aviation is being solved.

    “But at the same time, no one canceled the economy. Therefore, the study of various options for the development of the MS-21 family for the future, of course, is also underway. The work that is going on on the wide-body aircraft has a planning horizon beyond 2030. I think that we also need to work out several modifications based on the MS-21, including a version for 220–250 passengers,” said Denis Manturov.

    The new flagship airliner of Russian aviation could be the MS-21-400 aircraft, an extended version of the MS-21-300 airliner.

    In the summer of 2021, a month before the start of the MAKS air show, Ravil Khakimov, at that time the CEO of the Irkut Corporation, spoke about the versions of the new Russian aircraft that are being considered for further development. According to him, the most likely will be the launch of the MS-21-400 project for 260 passengers, everything will depend on demand after the start of operation of the MS-21-300 aircraft by airlines.

    https://aviation21.ru/d-manturov-nuzhno-prorabatyvat-versiyu-mc-21-na-250-passazhirov/

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    Post  flamming_python Tue May 16, 2023 11:52 pm

    What they need to do is return to the Fregat Ekojet project, instead of doing these Boeing 737 MAX modifications to the base MS-21 design
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    Post  lancelot Wed May 17, 2023 5:38 am

    That is a much larger aircraft. Even larger than MC-21-400. It would carry same amount of passengers as Il-96.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed May 17, 2023 2:02 pm

    The MC21 -400 has always been in the planning, it is just relatively less urgent than the MC-21-310 version, also because, while the baseline MC-21-400 only need the PD-14M engines, the extra long range version of it (capable of direct flights from Moscow to Vladivostok) would instead need engines with 17-18 tons of takeoff thrust.

    By the way, according to this article from 2015 there should be in consideration even larger variants (that would cover perfectly even the middle size plane between narrow body and widebody that Boeing wanted to cover with the new canceled project (797?).

    Most of the larger variants probably do not make sense and would be better covered by a new widebody but the MC-21-400 and the MC-21-400XLR are absolutely needed.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170512132451/http://vpk-news.ru/news/28529

    the article below is machine translated from Russian 

    Options for expanding the
    MC-21 aircraft family are being considered



    December 16, 2015


    The United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), within the framework of the Aircraft 2020 program, is considering the possibility of developing advanced modifications of the MS-21 airliner, created by the Irkut Corporation




    “In the course of three years of research work (R&D), various options for expanding the MS-21 aircraft family for the period up to 2035 were considered,” Mikhail Kuryansky, head of the UAC Aircraft 2020 project, told Interfax-AVN.


    First of all, he noted, it is possible to modernize the MS-21 in terms of optimizing the specific fuel consumption and improving the aerodynamics of the liner.


    Variants of a new narrow-body "single-aisle" (with one passage between the seats) MC-21-400 aircraft, which will require engines with a thrust of up to 18 tons, have been previously worked out. It is also possible to create aircraft of the family - MC-21-500, MC-21-600 with engines with a thrust of 20-25 tons and MS-21-700 with engines with a thrust of 30 tons, M. Kuryansky said.


    “A variant of the so-called “universal” MS-21X aircraft is also being considered, which can be positioned at a range of nine to ten thousand kilometers and will be a key player at these ranges. Although in this variant the aircraft turns out to be more continental, but even taking into account the headwind, its operation is possible on ocean routes,” M. Kuryansky noted.


    According to him, the scenario of the MS-21X project is about two times cheaper than the creation of two aircraft: a wide-body long-haul and a new narrow-body MS-21-400. M. Kuryansky clarified that the aircraft of the "single-pass" MS-21-400 line will go beyond the take-off weight of 105 tons, the take-off weight of the MS-21X aircraft will be around 155 tons

    As far as the frigate ecojet (Tu-304), the problem is that there is no modern engine available with about 24 tons of takeoff thrust. A modified and slightly enlarged project with 4 engines (CFM leap or PD-14) was proposed, but it does not make anymore sense in that case.

    Russia will eventually do also a PD-24 engine, but it will not be for sure available in the next 5 years

    Furthermore the frigate ecojet was mainly planned as a widebody with the range of a320, while the MC21-400XLR is exactly the opposite.

    I am not saying that the frigate ecojet would not be useful, just that it is a different niche. Furthermore, in the 4 engine version it is not competitive and in the 2 engine version it cannot be realised yet because of lack of modern powerplants with the required thrust (PD-24).

    Of course if they make it it will be without cooperation with the west and hopefully with the original name instead,I.e. Tu-304.

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    Post  Kiko Wed May 17, 2023 11:29 pm

    The Federal Air Transport Agency approved the TV7-117ST-01 engine for testing the Il-114-300 aircraft, 05.17.2023.

    The Federal Air Transport Agency of the Russian Federation (Rosaviatsiya) allowed the operation of the TV7-117ST-01 engine for the Il-114-300 aircraft developed by the United Engine Corporation of Rostec at altitudes up to 6 thousand meters and at speeds up to 550 kilometers per hour, which is the next planned stage for carrying out flight tests.

    The aircraft is equipped with two TV7-117ST-01 engines manufactured by the St. Petersburg enterprise UEC-Klimov. By the end of the year, six power plants will be provided for flight tests, and based on their results, a decision will be made to start mass production.

    “Currently, UEC-Klimov is preparing for flight tests of the TV7-117ST-01 as part of the Il-114-300 aircraft. In addition, we are preparing two more standby engines in a certified standard design, and by the end of the year four more engines will be provided for flight testing of the aircraft, ”said Vsevolod Eliseev, General Designer of UEC- Klimov.

    Earlier in December 2022, the Federal Air Transport Agency issued a type certificate for the TV7-117ST-01 engine. It is a state-of-the-art turboprop engine with increased takeoff power (3100 hp) and best-in-class fuel efficiency. The engine is controlled by an innovative electronic system of the FADEC type (BARK-65SM) and works in tandem with the new AB112-114 propeller, which has an increased thrust of 4 tons.

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/151419/

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed May 17, 2023 11:41 pm

    Hopefully this will be more reliable than the engine in the ill fated Il-112. The engine is not forced nearly as much so maybe it will be more reliable.
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    Post  lancelot Thu May 18, 2023 5:00 am

    https://aviation21.ru/v-rossii-nablyudaetsya-ostraya-nexvatka-uts-dlya-podgotovki-pilotov-grazhdanskoj-aviacii/
    In Russia, there is an acute shortage of trainers for the training of civil aviation pilots
    05/17/2023

    Rosaviatsia is initiating the development of a light training aircraft due to the fact that half of the fleet of foreign trainers has been stopped due to difficulties with engine maintenance. Aviation training centers across Russia are in dire need of such machines, Vladimir Izrailev, head of the flight operation department of Rosaviatsia, said at the annual meeting of the Union of Aircraft Manufacturers on April 26, 2023. About it writes newspaper "Vedomosti". With publication got acquainted Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.

    According to Vladimir Izrailev, today all nine flight schools of the department use foreign-made aircraft for pilot training: Cessna 172, Diamond 40/42, L-410, Bell and Eurocopter light helicopters. Izrailev noted that now about half of these machines are out of order. The problem is the supply of foreign components for these aircraft and helicopters, the situation is especially difficult with engines. “Engines are delivered for a very long time, expensive, and sometimes they are not delivered”, he said.

    According to Izrailev, he does not see any solution now, but if it is not found, then soon there will simply be no one to fly on the main aircraft that the Russian industry is developing to replace Western-made airliners. He said that the Federal Air Transport Agency sent a proposal to the Ministry of Industry and Trade to create a Russian aircraft with the characteristics necessary for training.

    In turn, Andrey Boginsky, Deputy General Director of UAC, who also participated in the meeting, recalled that the Federal Air Transport Agency had not purchased new equipment for several years due to lack of funds. At the same time, the KLA recently developed a light six-seat single-engine aircraft Yak-118, a modification of the Soviet Yak-18T. Boginsky indicated that the company was ready to begin development of the aircraft if resources were found for it.

    The representative of the Ministry of Industry and Trade said that the development of the Yak-118 is at an early stage, the project was not sent to the department. If this happens, funding will be considered when forming the budget.

    In our country, after the 90s, there were no attempts to create a similar aircraft for aviation schools. At the same time, on May 17, 1994, first flight light multi-purpose aircraft Il-103. Lifted the car into the sky test pilot OKB im. S.V. Ilyushin Igor Gudkov.

    The start of work on the creation of an aircraft of an uncharacteristic dimension for the Ilyushin company was given in 1988, when a notice of a competition for the creation of an initial training aircraft was printed in the Wings of the Motherland magazine. In the shortest possible time, an initiative group of young employees of the Design Bureau prepared a project that passed the initial selection. Subsequently, it was optimized for the appearance of the future Il-103. The aircraft was equipped with an I0-360ES engine manufactured by the American Teledyne Continental Motors.

    As a training aircraft, the Il-103 was never widely used, a little less than 70 aircraft were produced, which is a lot for Russian aircraft, created in difficult years for our aircraft industry, but not enough for equipment of this dimension. "ILs" were supplied to customers in Russia, exported to the Republic of Belarus, Peru, Myanmar, South Korea. IL-103 made a huge contribution to the development of certification procedures and type certificate validation. Initial certification was carried out by the Aviation Register of the Interstate Aviation Committee, which issued an approval document on February 15, 1996. And in 1998, approval was received from the US Federal Aviation Administration.
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 18, 2023 7:03 am

    Hopefully this will be more reliable than the engine in the ill fated Il-112. The engine is not forced nearly as much so maybe it will be more reliable.

    You test to find faults and problems.... the faulty tail structure of the F-111 remained until it was used in Vietnam in real combat where it cost several crews their lives.

    You don't test reliability of engines in test flights, reliability is determined over years of ground and air testing.

    And oh... there is a shortage of training aircraft... what a shock... who would have thought buying foreign aircraft from naturally hostile countries could possibly have backfired... but somehow now it is the Russian aviation industry that is at fault.

    Interesting they list the L-410 as a plane that has supply problems when their new light planes are based on them...

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu May 18, 2023 7:48 am

    They use Western engines. The L-410 uses a Czech engine.

    The Soviet Union delegated small aircraft to Warsaw Pact nations. So as a result Russia right now has a lack of component base and working aircraft in this area.

    The VK-800 engine is supposed to have similar performance. Whenever it enters production.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu May 18, 2023 12:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:And oh... there is a shortage of training aircraft... what a shock... who would have thought buying foreign aircraft from naturally hostile countries could possibly have backfired... but somehow now it is the Russian aviation industry that is at fault.

    Interesting they list the L-410 as a plane that has supply problems when their new light planes are based on them...

    The problems of the L-410 are some of the foreign components. In theory starting from next year they should be able to build new aircrafts fully Russianised (probably sharing some of the systems with the Baikal aircraft).

    Of course some issues will still remain for the already existing aircrafts as it is not convenient or practical to replace foreign components in already built aircrafts.

    As far as a training aircrafts in UZGA Austrian DA-40 (single engine) and DA-42( twin engine) were build since 2013 under licence. I know that already in 2021 they started to produce the fuselage independently, but I do not know what is the status now after the military operation in country 404.

    https://vpk.name/en/521070_the-assembly-of-diamond-da42-aircraft-for-the-full-production-cycle-has-begun-at-uzga.html


    Again, the main problem there was the fact that Russia did not produce engines for this kind of aircrafts (and this was also one of the facts that delayed the drones development).

    Starting from next year, the APD-200 engine with a capacity of about 200 hp should be available (together with also other aircraft engines with lower power).

    The APD-200 would also be perfect for the il-103, which was designed around an American engine.

    So, concerning single engine trainer aircraft, the il-103 is probably one of the best solution, but could be also paired with a even smaller aircraft to save money and use a smaller engine. Maybe a russian derivative of the da-40?

    And for the multiengine trainer, the DA-42 is one of the best in its role (also due to efficiency and cost of operation). I do not know if UZGA could do a fully russianised version of it now.

    Unfortunately there are no other aircrafts that could cover that role at the moment (unless Russia wants to order piper Seminole...)
    Of course Russia could design a twin, maybe based on the il-103, but it takes time.

    Does anyone has official news on small civil aircraft for Russia?

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    Post  GarryB Fri May 19, 2023 4:26 am

    My point is that you test things to find problems and design flaws so finding a problem with the engine during testing is cheaper and easier to fix than putting the aircraft in serial production and the problems only start becoming apparent when you start losing aircraft and aircrews in operational use.

    Obviously a tragedy that they lost a test crew because they are highly trained and experienced and more likely to find faults and survive to have them fixed than your average air crew and crash investigation team.

    Claiming it was a problem with the engine is unreasonable, even more so to suggest a different engine be used because of this... which engine has never failed through testing and development?

    The Soviet Union delegated small aircraft to Warsaw Pact nations. So as a result Russia right now has a lack of component base and working aircraft in this area.

    I understand that but by about 2007-2008 it was pretty clear the west didn't want to be friends so they should not have been buying foreign aircraft, or should have been buying them in tiny batches to get up to speed on their design and operation.

    The west essentially raped Russia during the 1990s... what chance of a friendship was really possible... and it was pretty clear that eastern europe and former soviet states were being fluffed the same way Japan and West Germany were after WWII... it was obvious there was going to be a cold war round 2.

    Hollywood made it clear... Russians went from being scary and drunk but incompetent to just being drunk and incompetent...

    The VK-800 engine is supposed to have similar performance. Whenever it enters production.

    The engine they are using is related to the engine used in helicopters so spare parts are everywhere and widely available and it is a good reliable engine when the installation is right. It had two fire extinguishers and they were both pointed at the engine.... should have had 6.

    Like testing a racing car with the wheel brakes removed and replaced with a log of wood you throw under the wheel to stop.

    Of course some issues will still remain for the already existing aircrafts as it is not convenient or practical to replace foreign components in already built aircrafts.

    I would say it was a high priority to replace foreign components in existing types as quickly as possible.

    As far as a training aircrafts in UZGA Austrian DA-40 (single engine) and DA-42( twin engine) were build since 2013 under licence. I know that already in 2021 they started to produce the fuselage independently, but I do not know what is the status now after the military operation in country 404.

    An important part of planning and management is knowing when to change plans.

    Austria has not been the most anti Russian country in the block but the most anti Russian countries in Europe will do everything they can to destroy all ties with Russia, so why try to keep holding on to them in the hope they don't try to strangle you with them?

    Again, the main problem there was the fact that Russia did not produce engines for this kind of aircrafts (and this was also one of the facts that delayed the drones development).

    Well a factory that built helicopters managed to make the Ansat helicopter on its own... maybe these factories that are building foreign planes can revise the designs and make their own planes loosely based on foreign types with the expertise of local aircraft designers?

    As you say having the right engines is the key so while they wait they can design their own light aircraft... there were dozens of Russian designs that were cancelled for lack of money in the 90s and 00s... many of which would be well worth another look... a new focus on aircraft families should lead to the companies and factories making the different planes cooperating so the Baikal single engined plane is not radically different from the twin engined larger aircraft that will be built too... not just make them so they only have the engine type in common.

    And for the multiengine trainer, the DA-42 is one of the best in its role (also due to efficiency and cost of operation). I do not know if UZGA could do a fully russianised version of it now.

    It is a trainer and Russia is an energy exporter so fuel costs are not critical... it would be better to have a Russian design that uses slightly more fuel and all Russian engines... except the new Russian engines seem to be very good and probably wont be inferior to foreign engine types in terms of efficiency and performance and cost.

    Of course Russia could design a twin, maybe based on the il-103, but it takes time.

    Yak, Ilyusion, Tupolev, Beriev, and quite a few other aircraft design companies in Russia have been designing aircraft for the last 30 years... many of which were rejected because the Russian government thought they could buy the wests love by buying their shit, and probably a few Russians actually thought western stuff was better...

    The things stopping the Russian designs was always engines... well now the engines are coming... and more importantly Russian aircraft designs can meet the needs of Russian operators rather better than western aircraft.

    Soviet planes often had a cloak room for heavy coats and pants, while western planes did not.

    Meant in larger airfields the aircraft had to roll up to a terminal building and passengers walked through airstairs to the building... on smaller airfield passengers just froze...

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri May 19, 2023 11:51 am

    Hi Garry, this news is for you!
    Anyway, good that we have an answer to the issues with the L-410.

    Since February last year I could never understand how all the civilian production plans until 2030 always included a large number of L-410, so I imagined they had a sort of a deal for a sort of licenced production of it without imported components (like Poland for the An-28/PLZM28).

    Anyway the single engine Baikal could also take a part of the responsibilities of the L-410 while the development of the new twin is going on. And of course the design of the new twin could be done to have as many commonalities as possible with the Baikal (in addition to the engine) in order to simplify the maintenance and supply chain.

    https://aviation21.ru/na-zamenu-l-410-pridyot-samolyot-s-neubirayushhimsya-shassi/
    The L-410 will be replaced by an aircraft with fixed landing gear
    05/18/2023

    Russia and Belarus will create in partnership a new aircraft that will replace the Czech L-410, declared Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Oleg Bocharov at the HeliRussia-2023 exhibition.

    He clarified that the Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian government Denis Manturov held a working meeting with the government of the Republic of Belarus, during which the creation of a new aircraft for regional transportation was discussed.

    “We will definitely make an aircraft with fixed landing gear. We will proceed from the limitation of the cost of a flight hour and the cost. We pushed back [the 19-seater production schedule] by two years to do R&D on the airframe. We have everything else, ”Bocharov specified.

    According to him, the VK-800 engine will be used as part of the power plant of the new aircraft, and the onboard equipment will be a complex developed by KRET in 2019.

    Since 2015, the assembly of L-410 series aircraft in Russia has been organized at the Ural Civil Aviation Plant in Yekaterinburg. In total, from 2008 to 2021, the plant of the Czech company Aircraft Industries built more than 130 aircraft, including those assembled at UZGA.

    After February 24, 2022, aircraft assembly in Yekaterinburg became impossible due to sanctions against Russian civil aviation.

    P.S. of course this news is only about the L-410, the TVRS-44 Ladoga has nothing to do with Czech Republic or Let aircrafts anymore and will be produced by Russia as planned.

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    Post  GarryB Fri May 19, 2023 12:14 pm


    P.S. of course this news is only about the L-410, the TVRS-44 Ladoga has nothing to do with Czech Republic or Let aircrafts anymore and will be produced by Russia as planned.

    Well hang on a minute... this article you posted says:

    We pushed back [the 19-seater production schedule] by two years to do R&D on the airframe. We have everything else, ”Bocharov specified.

    So the L-610 is an enlarged L-410 and the TVRS-44 is a Russian replacement for the L-610, then shouldn't they make the replacement for the L-410 based on the TVRS-44 but with engine and components from the Baikal for commonality?

    What is going to happen is that the Baikal and TVRS-44 are going to be different because the TVRS-44 is based on the L-610 which is a scaled up L-410, while the Baikal is a new design, but the 19 seat new plane they are developing which now appears to have fixed undercarriage will be a scaled up Baikal instead.

    So the Baikal and the new plane will use the VK-800 engine, while the TVRS-44 uses the rather more powerful Helicopter based engine TV7 type with 3,100hp which will also be used on the Il-114 according to the article at the top of this page.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri May 19, 2023 3:01 pm

    Yes, for that reason I said, this is a very interesting development BUT it has nothing to do with the TVRS-44 Ladoga.

    I only mentioned the Ladoga to hint that the news does not affect it.

    Further production of the L-410 is cancelled, while production of the much larger TVRS-44 Ladoga (An-24 replacement) is confirmed.

    By the way, it could be also interesting to see if there is market also for something like the SibNIA TVS-2DTS (the An-2 composite derivative), another single engine aircraft, since a turboprop derivative of the new Ka-62 turboshaft engine (about 1300/1400 hp at takeoff power) would be perfect for it.
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    Post  lancelot Sat May 20, 2023 5:52 am

    TVS-2DTS used imported Western composites in its novel wing structure and an imported Western turboprop engine.
    The VK-1600 is kind of overpowered. The original An-2 had a 1010hp engine. VK-1600 is 1300-1800hp. And right now there is no plan to make a turboprop variant of VK-1600 so that would also have to get funded.
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 20, 2023 5:56 am

    It seemed to have achieved a performance superiority, but the cost was that it costs too much, which is a bit ironic really.

    I suspect as composites become normal and widespread and cheaper that the design will become affordable eventually, but the existing customers likely wont be able to wait and will have to look at Baikal as a stopgap.

    the thing is that as new engines become available all those aircraft designs put on hold or cancelled because there was no suitable engines will suddenly become an option and hopefully some of the more promising designs will get a chance to shine.

    So the L-410 will die and a scaled up Baikal will take its place, but it will live on in the L-610 upgrade that is the TVRS-44.

    Hopefully Kret can sell a suite of avionics for light and medium passenger aircraft that could be standardised across all the new aircraft going into serial production.

    Now that foreign stuff is hard to get or sanctioned it is a good time to be designing aircraft in Russia... for Russian companies.

    TVS-2DTS used imported Western composites in its novel wing structure and an imported Western turboprop engine

    The Russians are doing a lot of work with new composite materials and new engines are becoming available... both of which would probably drive down the price of the aircraft which was something like 2 million per aircraft... western engines and composites are never cheap... so Russian replacements make sense anyway.

    Seems to me to be really only a good idea if you absolutely have to have an An-2 type aircraft...

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat May 20, 2023 11:42 am

    lancelot wrote:TVS-2DTS used imported Western composites in its novel wing structure and an imported Western turboprop engine.
    The VK-1600 is kind of overpowered. The original An-2 had a 1010hp engine. VK-1600 is 1300-1800hp. And right now there is no plan to make a turboprop variant of VK-1600 so that would also have to get funded.
    Well, the use of imported western composite was due the lack of russian ones, at least at competitive cost. I believe at that time there was only some very limited production for academic purposes.  Now, thanks to the sanctions to the MC-21 program it is not the case anymore.

    As far as the engine, if I am not mistaken, the An-3 (an upgraded version of the An-2) was using a 1300 hp engine) and also the similar sized Pilatus PC-12 uses a 1200 hp engine.

    Yes, at the moment there are no news that a turboprop version of the VK-1600 will be realised, but it is quite realistic to expect that.

    An engine like that could also be used in very large drones or on a faster single engine turboprop aircraft like the beechraft Denali, which has a high speed cruise of almost 530 km/h (or the epic E1000)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Denali
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_E1000

    Such kind of aircraft could also be useful to cover another niche or even for fast transport between cities.

    By the way, if Klimov has its hands full, maybe the same team that finished the development of the VK-800 for the Baikal (the engine department of Ural civil aviation plant) could also give a hand.

    Anyway, I still see both Baikal and the composite An-2 as useful, and they probably can coexists also because the max payload of the TVS-2DTS is 75% larger than the one of the Baikal (3500 vs 2000 kg).

    Fürthermore, as said before, I would also see a nice niche for fast single engine low wing turboprops. Maybe they can do one powered by the VK -800 like the Baikal and one with the same engine that would eventually go on the TVS-2DTS.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat May 20, 2023 4:06 pm

    Some additional info


    This article from September 2021 shows clearly that an aircraft version of the engine is planned
    VK-1600 C (or S in Latin characters)
    Note В = Вертолёт (Helicopter), С = Самолёт (Airplane).


    https://www.aex.ru/m/docs/3/2021/9/19/3310/


    The aircraft version of the VK-1600S turboprop engine will have the same takeoff power as the helicopter version, but if required, the power can be increased to 1800 hp.

    https://www.aex.ru/imgupl/IMG_1415.jpg

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 8 IMG_1415

    From the picture here it can be seen that the baseline version of the VK-1600C turboprop will have 1400 hp, but they propose also a derated version with 1200 hp in order to be an alternative to the American Honeywell (originally Garret) TPE-331-12 engine, which is exactly the engine of the SibNIA TVS-2DTS, and to the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-67.

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    Post  GarryB Sun May 21, 2023 5:23 am

    Well, the use of imported western composite was due the lack of russian ones, at least at competitive cost.

    My understanding is that they didn't develop the composite technology for the MS-21 because it could be bought from overseas, but that when they were forced to make it domestically they could make it cheaper than the foreign companies were prepared to sell it to them for... which means the sanctions made them more independent and saved them some money and I would suggest that adding other light aircraft that can use such composite material would make the existing composite investment more profitable and the more platforms that add composite components the better.

    Wasn't there an upgrade of the Yak-40 where they just replaced the wing with a composite wing and dramatically improved its performance... this is an advantage of making things yourself because you can find lots of other applications of the technology that improves performance across the board and the increased application of the technology should make it more affordable.

    As far as the engine, if I am not mistaken, the An-3 (an upgraded version of the An-2) was using a 1300 hp engine) and also the similar sized Pilatus PC-12 uses a 1200 hp engine.

    I was pretty sure it was an American engine which means it is not much use.

    The An-3 was an Antonov project to improve their product.... Russia should be looking to replace it with a Russian designed and made aircraft with Russian parts and materials.

    The TVS-2DTs could be upgraded to use all Russian materials and components and we will see what that does to the price and operational costs... which is really what potential customers are interested in.

    There have been lots of proposed replacements for the An-2, but they either didn't match the performance or were too expensive to buy or to operate or to fix or all three.


    Anyway, I still see both Baikal and the composite An-2 as useful,

    I would agree as long as the foreign bits and materials can be eliminated...

    Yandex translation:

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 8 Transl10
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    Post  lancelot Tue May 23, 2023 5:07 pm

    https://aviation21.ru/rossijskaya-tcas-nachala-ustanavlivatsya-na-samolyoty-ms-21-i-ssj-new/
    Russian TCAS began to be installed on MS-21 and SSJ-New aircraft
    23.05.2023

    The Institute of Aviation Instrumentation "Navigator" began to transfer to the Irkut Corporation the first samples of the Air Collision Avoidance System (ACAS) for the MS-21 and SSJ-New aircraft. About it informs RT with reference to the technical director of Navigator JSC Sergey Chanushkin.

    The PSES, which implements the functions of TCAS II, issues recommendations to the crew on how to eliminate a conflict situation in the air. It determines the range, bearing and relative height of surrounding aircraft using interrogations from on-board transponders. When interacting with an aircraft equipped with the TCAS II system, joint coordination of a maneuver is carried out to avoid a collision.

    The system is now being installed on Sukhoi Superjet and MS-21. Four systems have already been shipped to Sukhoi Superjet. Two of them are now installed on aircraft. In August of this year, we are to deliver four SPVS to the MS-21 manufacturer”, Sergey Chanushkin said.

    Before flight tests on the liners, the SPVS will be tested at a half-scale test complex for the development and integration of on-board equipment "electronic bird". Such tests are necessary to make sure that the EPSV interfaces with other on-board systems while still on the ground, Chanushkin explained.

    According to him, the air collision avoidance system was tested on the L-410 regional aircraft. At the moment, one of the stages of avionics certification is being carried out - the SOI2 audit. By the end of the year, Navigator expects to receive a certificate of validity of components.

    Research into collision avoidance systems has been ongoing since at least the 1950s. The American company Collins Aerospace with its development of TCAS is the world monopolist in the SPS market.

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    Post  lancelot Wed May 24, 2023 1:51 pm

    https://aviation21.ru/komiaviatrans-prekratit-ekspluataciyu-samolyota-l-410/
    Komiaviatrans will stop operating the L-410 aircraft
    24.05.2023

    In May 23 at a work meeting in the State Council of the Republic of Komi, during which the issues of servicing the population by air transport were discussed, Yury Skripin, General Director of the Komiaviatrans airline, said that the carrier would stop using L-410 turboprop aircraft.

    He said that the company managed to improve its financial condition, stabilize its debt burden, and increase revenue. “A significant role in this was played by a subsidy from the regional budget in the amount of 1 billion 800 million rubles, the allocation of which the deputies approved at the end of 2021. In addition, the company is optimizing its staff: reducing administrative staff and recruiting pilots and technical specialists,” said the head of the airline.

    According to him, transportation on domestic routes has grown - in 2022, the airline carried 27 thousand passengers on L-410 and An-24 aircraft.

    “However, this year the use of the L-410 had to be abandoned due to sanctions and a shortage of spare parts. Komiaviatrans is looking for alternative ways for deliveries, and is also negotiating with the Ural Civil Aviation Plant on the localization of production,” said Yuri Skripin.

    He explained that since March 2023, due to the general geopolitical situation and sanctions pressure, the company has not been able to ensure the airworthiness of L-410 aircraft in full, as a result of which flights on these aircraft were first limited, and from April they were actually stopped. For two of the four aircraft, the leasing is almost over, in a month another L-410 will become the property of Komiaviatrans, in a year - the last one.

    “We are interested in raising them to the wing, they could provide our intermunicipal transportation in full, except for Vorkuta. We are looking for various options for the L-410, first of all we need money, there are problems with spare parts. Suppliers do not work directly with deliveries from a factory in the Czech Republic, we are trying to find workarounds”, quotes Yuri Skripin IA BNK.

    Deputy Minister of Economic Development and Industry of Komi Vladimir Kotov explained in this regard that in the medium term it is planned to use domestically produced aircraft. The republic is also working on the sale of Embraer aircraft, but it is also hampered by sanctions.

    In August 2020, Vladimir Uyba, acting head of Komi, said that the Brazilian Embraer ERJ 145s had brought the Komiaviatrans company to ruin, and they would be replaced by domestic An-24s.

    According to the Federal Air Transport Agency, the airline currently has one L-410 UVP-E20 aircraft, two An-24RVs, three Mi-8MTV-1 helicopters, and 11 Mi-8Ts in its fleet. The republic acquired the first three L-410 aircraft on lease in 2013, and one more in 2014. The cost of each was $6 million. By 2022, only one aircraft remained airworthy.

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