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    Russian Economy General News: #13

    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:44 pm

    Stagflation in Russia is highly unlikely. Those who are predicting it are not well informed.

    Rosstat estimates economic growth in the third quarter, by Elena Rozhkova for RBC. 11.13.2024.

    Rosstat announced a slowdown in economic growth in the third quarter to 3.1% against 4.1% in the previous one. However, the growth was better than the Ministry of Economic Development estimated (2.9%). According to the Ministry of Economic Development, the economy grew by 4.2% in 9 months.

    Economic growth in the third quarter of 2024 slowed to 3.1% year-on-year against 4.1% in the second quarter of 2024, according to a preliminary estimate by Rosstat published on Wednesday, November 13. "The index of physical volume of gross domestic product in the third quarter of 2024 relative to the same period in 2023, according to a preliminary estimate, was 103.1%," the agency said in a statement. The data was again provided without taking into account statistical information on the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics, as well as the Zaporizhia and Kherson regions.

    The preliminary ("zero") assessment was made using the production method (the sum of the gross added value of all industries). Thus, in manufacturing, the added value grew by 6% in the third quarter of 2024 (compared to the same period of the previous year), in retail turnover - also by 6%. The first GDP estimate for the third quarter will be published on December 13.

    In the second quarter of 2024, according to Rosstat , GDP growth was 4.1% year-on-year, which is lower than the first quarter figure of 5.4%.

    Despite the slowdown, Rosstat’s preliminary estimate was higher than the Ministry of Economic Development’s estimate published at the end of October (plus 2.9% in the third quarter).

    The Ministry of Economic Development, taking into account the data received from Rosstat, has clarified its estimate of economic growth for nine months: it amounted to 4.2% compared to the same period last year, the press service of the ministry reported. "The main driver was the manufacturing industry, where the machine-building complex made the greatest contribution. Thus, high indicators were demonstrated by the production of individual vehicles and equipment (including railcars, diesel locomotives, etc.), as well as the production of computers and electronics," the press service quotes Lev Denisov, director of the Department of Macroeconomic Analysis and Forecasting of the Ministry of Economic Development. In his opinion, the high level of consumer activity is supported by the growth of incomes of the population.

    Economists from the Institute of Economic Forecasting (INF) of the Russian Academy of Sciences previously pointed out the slowdown in the Russian economy . First of all, according to experts, it is caused by the ongoing tightening of monetary policy (the Bank of Russia raised the key rate to a record 21% on October 25) and a frontal increase in other costs: wages, transaction costs in foreign trade, tariffs for transportation and housing and communal services, and the introduction of additional fees.

    Economists at the Center for Macroeconomic Analysis and Short-Term Forecasting (CMASF) predict the possibility of stagflation in Russia, that is, simultaneous stagnation (or decline) and high inflation. Due to the Central Bank's tight monetary policy, according to CMASF economists, the situation may develop according to the scenario of "shock with a decline in production" with a high potential for corporate bankruptcies and an increase in non-payments. To prevent the GDP dynamics from going into negative territory, "the Central Bank's key rate should be reduced to approximately 15-16% by mid-2025, CMASF economists point out. The Central Bank's current forecast assumes an average annual key rate during this period at 17-20%.

    Nevertheless, based on the calculations based on the statistics available at the beginning of November, the INP RAS raised its forecast for GDP growth by the end of 2024: they expect the economy to grow by 3.9%, which coincides with the official forecast of the Ministry of Economic Development (a month earlier, the INP predicted annual GDP growth of 3.7%). The Bank of Russia's forecast assumes an increase in GDP this year by 3.5–4%.

    On November 8, the Bank of Russia reported that the dynamics of industry financial flows it monitors indicate a gradual slowdown in economic activity at the beginning of the fourth quarter. In October, the volume of incoming payments made through the Bank of Russia payment system decreased by 2.9% compared to the average level of the third quarter of 2024, the Central Bank indicated.

    https://www.rbc.ru/economics/13/11/2024/6734c10a9a794733a77c0506

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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:21 pm

    The main issue Russia has right now is lack of workers to fill the gaps in production of goods which used to be imported.

    Since salaries keep rising I think you will see increased automation. Russia can still import machine tools from China and its own production of machine tools is rising many times over.

    Another thing which Russia should solve is the market for materials. The CEO of Rostselmash for example said he is getting quoted steel prices based on London Metals Exchange prices, and when he is quoted shipping costs, they quote him as if he was importing the metal from London even when it is produced at a factory in Russia.

    Russia needs to use its own stock exchange to assign prices to metals and other inputs produced in Russia. This is creating artificially high prices.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 15, 2024 3:41 am

    It can create its own automation facilities and robots and machinery to make work easier and safer, upgrading current factories and facilities to free up excess workforce to work in other places and in other areas would be useful too.

    Optimising the workforce so less important areas of the economy can be left with the workforce shortfall and the more important areas catered to.

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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:02 pm

    lancelot wrote:The main issue Russia has right now is lack of workers to fill the gaps in production of goods which used to be imported.

    Since salaries keep rising I think you will see increased automation. Russia can still import machine tools from China and its own production of machine tools is rising many times over.

    Their government owned companies have too many workers and worker productivity is low, as this was done in the past to keep people employed and employment low. For example, Gazprom has 500k and Rosneft 330k. So they can find some of the workforce there through optimizations.
    Also, robotization levels are extremely low at only 11 robots per 10k in 2023, where world average is 151 per 10k workers in 2022.

    https://mashnews.ru/robotyi-berut-promyishlennost-v-oborot.-v-rossii-obnaruzhen-vzryivnoj-rost-robototexniki.html

    Quote from the article:

    In terms of robot prevalence, Russia is far behind  the rest of the world. The world leader is South Korea (1,012 robots per 10,000 employees). Then come Singapore (730 robots per 10,000) and Germany (415 per 10,000).

    In Russia, in 2023, this figure will be 11 robots per 10,000 employees. Such data is provided in a study by Roscongress.

    World rankings for 2022:

    Russian Economy General News: #13 - Page 31 Graph_10

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    Post  lyle6 Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:45 pm

    The Russian economy is outperforming everyone but China on that list. Those 11 robots are fucking powerful.

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:39 am

    lyle6 wrote:The Russian economy is outperforming everyone but China on that list. Those 11 robots are fucking powerful.

    Yeap.  Caveat isn't on the mark, like everything else he posts.

    But also, when there are more robots, well then Russia's economy will be as big as China's then.

    Should we also talk about lack of production output in these countries excluding China?  USA cannot even keep up with Russia on something as simple as artillery shell production.

    OR, there is a possibility that the list isn't correct.  Like pretty much every other graph that was released on Russia.  Then all of a sudden - Russia exceeded Japan.

    Oh boy.

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    Post  kvs Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:36 am

    Industrial robots are clearly a dick measuring contest for many people.   As if a production line is inferior if it does not have them.
    Total BS.  

    Russia managed with the existing workforce and the reason that South Korea has so many is because it has an imploding population with
    a TFR less than 1.   It has no choice but to automate.   This is not "progress" but a crisis that will eventually destroy South Korea.  

    As the situation in Russia is moving into the worker shortage regime, automation will be financed.   That is how economics works.  Anyone
    who thinks that Russia can't handle industrial robots really needs to stop participating in the discussion.  

    https://vc.ru/tech/110968-10-razrabotchikov-promyshlennyh-robotov-v-rossii?ysclid=m3l0tzc6ay76723238

    Yandex no longer provides proper links to translated pages and uses some compromised website (translated.turbopages.com) to do its translations.
    Google does nothing with this website for some reason, likely propaganda.



    Last edited by kvs on Sun Nov 17, 2024 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:54 am

    your link isn't working.  But I agree with you KVS.  Even with automation, South Koreas production rates aren't that great.  Slightly better than US' but thats about it.  Still far below Russia.

    Company Tonar had started their own production of robotics to help welding.

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    Post  lancelot Sat Nov 16, 2024 12:54 pm

    South Korea can produce tanks, which is more than the US can do, their artillery is also better than that produced by the US.
    They are also the world's second largest shipbuilder, behind China, slightly above Japan.

    They are the world's second largest chipmaker. They are probably only behind in the aerospace sector, but they seem to be improving in that area as well, they make their own trainers, and will soon produce their own fighter aircraft.

    When Westinghouse made the nuclear reactors in the USA at Vogtle they had to import the pressure vessel from Doosan in South Korea.

    Not bad for a country with 52 million people.

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:46 pm

    Of course not. They are doing fantastic for such a small country. What I'm saying though maybe aside the shipbuilding, Russias manufacturing dwarfs them. Their ship building is amazing because they stick to some designs and go with it. Russia can never make up its fucking mind and streamline production.

    As for semiconductors, it's entirely because of samsung and good on them too for being competitive in everything. Something Russia needs to concentrate in and emulate.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:25 pm

    sepheronx wrote: Russia can never make up its fucking mind and streamline production.


    You are comparing apples to oranges.
    South Korean chaebol structure optimised export-oriented production.
    Hyundai, Daweoo, and Samsung are all created on the same logic.
    While Russia is a continent-sized country made of different soil.
    They don't care to produce a 25kt DWT containers in a streamlined production, because what they need is a 1000 pcs of 500/1000t DWT crawlers.
    Or 100 Volgamax river barges.
    Otherwise they wont be able to transport goods needed by their own population.
    It does not impress much when presented in a desired way - they don't produce this, this and that ...
    Yet still, they are capable of reshaping an impressive amount of steel into hulls. Those they need.

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:06 pm

    The main issue though has been what they wanted/needed in Frigates/Corvettes. Destroyers are a thing of the past and China is wasting its time building so many of them.

    But Russia could have far more Grigorovich Class frigates if they just continued with them. Some delays because localization of engines, but otherwise they would have had a larger number. But their plans kept changing and their needs. I understand it can be beneficial to change the needs and such but ultimately they ended up with a lot less than they really need.

    But yes, SK shipyards are more geared towards large foreign orders.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 17, 2024 7:09 am

    They can't just wave a magic wand and serial mass produce corvettes and frigates and destroyers.... they have to build the first vessels and test and evaluate them and then based on those tests and evaluations work out improvements and upgrades and then produce those upgraded ships and then test and evaluate whether they are better or worse and if they are getting value for money or if they have ruined them.

    Once they have produced and tested and redesigned and built and tested then they can decide what they need.

    They have five fleets each with different requirements and needs so it might be that two different frigates might be useful or perhaps the heavier one is all they really need. The corvettes can be made in large numbers, but different types offer different capabilities and some might be useful in one place but not another so serial production for more than one corvette type and more than one frigate type might make sense.

    Of course no point in building 50 corvettes if you can't have 50 complete propulsion systems ready to fit to them as they are built.

    Their corvettes and frigates so far seem to be world class... they seem to be heading in a good direction.

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    Post  Scorpius Mon Nov 18, 2024 7:58 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    In Russia, in 2023, this figure will be 11 robots per 10,000 employees. Such data is provided in a study by Roscongress.

    World rankings for 2022:

    Russian Economy General News: #13 - Page 31 Graph_10

    These numbers mean absolutely nothing. They do not take into account the structure of the economy, it does not say what is considered industrial robots. In a limited sense, these figures can be used to characterize the level of robotics in the industrial sector - but this indicator itself is also meaningless. It is obvious that robotization is beneficial only in a narrow range of industrial productions, and is never an indicator of labor productivity. More smoke and mirrors in an attempt to distort real economic data.

    For example, how did all these industrial robots help NATO countries in the production of ammunition?

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 18, 2024 1:13 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:Their government owned companies have too many workers and worker productivity is low, as this was done in the past to keep people employed and employment low. For example, Gazprom has 500k and Rosneft 330k. So they can find some of the workforce there through optimizations.
    Also, robotization levels are extremely low at only 11 robots per 10k in 2023, where world average is 151 per 10k workers in 2022.

    https://mashnews.ru/robotyi-berut-promyishlennost-v-oborot.-v-rossii-obnaruzhen-vzryivnoj-rost-robototexniki.html

    Quote from the article:

    In terms of robot prevalence, Russia is far behind  the rest of the world. The world leader is South Korea (1,012 robots per 10,000 employees). Then come Singapore (730 robots per 10,000) and Germany (415 per 10,000).

    In Russia, in 2023, this figure will be 11 robots per 10,000 employees. Such data is provided in a study by Roscongress.

    World rankings for 2022:

    Russian Economy General News: #13 - Page 31 Graph_10

    Worker productivity is not low, when this metric was calculated properly some 5 years back, it turned out that Russian industrial workers were around 80% as productive as their equivalents in Germany. Which is not bad when you take into account that Germany, per your statistics, has nearly x40 more robots per worker

    Clearly this statistic is too vague to be useful.
    Where are all these robots made use of in South Korea and Germany that they aren't in Russia? Which industries and factories?
    And what type of robots?

    Uralvagonzavod produces tanks far quicker than any German factory does. In fact no German factory produces tanks anymore at all, but if we take the Leopard 2 factory in Greece, then Uravwagonzavod still far outpaces them.
    How many robots does Uralvagonzavod have on their assembly lines?
    Does it have more than say an Amazon warehouse with all its robots that zip around with items all over the place? Probably not.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 18, 2024 1:35 pm

    Russia uses a lot of machine tools in its production facilities. But use of programmable industrial robots is much lower. Thus far I mostly see them in automobile factories.

    Even UVZ is less automated than it used to be in Soviet times. It used to have automatic welding of T-72 tank chassis in the production line but that was dismantled.

    This is a known problem that the Russian government is trying to address. The lack of industrial robots vs other advanced economies.
    With the decrease in available labor pool and increase in salaries it is natural that automation in the Russian economy will increase.
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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Nov 18, 2024 5:39 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    Worker productivity is not low, when this metric was calculated properly some 5 years back, it turned out that Russian industrial workers were around 80% as productive as their equivalents in Germany.

    Care to provide some link to back it up?

    flamming_python wrote:
    Which is not bad when you take into account that Germany, per your statistics, has nearly x40 more robots per worker

    Clearly this statistic is too vague to be useful.
    Where are all these robots made use of in South Korea and Germany that they aren't in Russia? Which industries and factories?
    And what type of robots?

    Link to original Roscongress article. You can find all datapoints there:
    https://roscongress.org/materials/rynok-promyshlennykh-robotov-v-mire-i-rossii-demografiya-diktuet-spros/

    Definition of industrial robot is internationally accepted, so numbers will make apple to apple comparison  in China, Singapore, Russia or Mozambique.

    https://ifr.org/industrial-robots

    " The IFR’s use of the term “industrial robot” is based on the definition of the International Organization for Standardization: an “automatically controlled, reprogrammable multipurpose manipulator, programmable in three or more axes, which can be either fixed in place or fixed to a mobile platform for use in automation applications in an industrial environment". (ISO 8373:2021) "


    Points i tried to make in my original post were that, with increased automatization and robotization and optimization of bloated government run companies, Russia can find more industrial  workers and also raise output. That's all.
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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Nov 18, 2024 6:03 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Uralvagonzavod produces tanks far quicker than any German factory does. In fact no German factory produces tanks anymore at all, but if we take the Leopard 2 factory in Greece, then Uravwagonzavod still far outpaces them.
    How many robots does Uralvagonzavod have on their assembly lines?
    Does it have more than say an Amazon warehouse with all its robots that zip around with items all over the place? Probably not.

    Since, i don't see what UVZ has to do with my original post (actually, i consider it spamming as it is not connected to that post), i'll answer it in a separate post. First of all, there's no tank factory in Greece. EODH from Thessaloniki is only a parts supplier.
    UVZ in 2024 is a shadow of what it was in mid 80's. As Lancelot pointed out their turret production used to be automated and now it is not. UVZ, at the moment can probably not produce more than 250 (it produced, at most, 120 T-90M tanks, not all NEW, in 2022 going by most optimistic estimates) new and modernized T-90M tanks, while it was producing 1500 NEW tanks in mid 80's and only for two years. It, now, has one full production line (second for Armata was never completed) and second is being used for upgrades of T-90 to T-90M. It had 6 full production lines (250 max capacity) in the mid 80's. Not to mention that at present time UVZ has over 30k workers working 12 hour shifts in 6 day work week. And all this while shuffling workers from civil production part of the plant to military part and bringing people from prisons. Also, Omsktransmash doesn't produce new tanks, but it is only doing upgrades, even if there were talks they will restart production of T-80.

    https://ura.news/news/1052623841
    https://tagilcity.ru/news/2023-01-30/ruk-dlya-tankov-ne-hvataet-pochemu-uvz-v-nizhnem-tagile-ispytyvaet-nehvatku-kadrov-2647826

    By most accounts, South Korea can produce most NEW tanks in the world (250 tanks), but they rarely did that many. In all, military industry is not a good benchmark for automatization and robotization, since there's no economic need for it and, especially, tank production asks for a lot of manual labor.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 18, 2024 6:13 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:UVZ, at the moment can probably not produce more than 250 (it produced, at most, 120 T-90M tanks, not all NEW, in 2022 going by most optimistic estimates) new and modernized T-90M tanks, while it was producing 1500 NEW tanks in mid 80's and only for two years. It, now, has one full production line (second for Armata was never completed) and second is being used for upgrades of T-90 to T-90M. It had 6 full production lines (250 max capacity) in the mid 80's. Not to mention that at present time UVZ has over 30k workers working 12 hour shifts in 6 day work week. And all this while shuffling workers from civil production part of the plant to military part and bringing people from prisons. Also, Omsktransmash doesn't produce new tanks, but it is only doing upgrades, even if there were talks they will restart production of T-80.
    I doubt that yearly tank production at UVZ is only new 250 tanks. It could be that because they still have a lot of work to do upgrading older tank chassis or fixing damaged tanks. They could produce about that many tanks with peacetime production. In war time production with extra working shifts you can bet tank production will be higher.

    And the Omsk plant is producing new T-80 tanks. This was publicly announced.
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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Nov 18, 2024 6:38 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    I doubt that yearly tank production at UVZ is only new 250 tanks. It could be that because they still have a lot of work to do upgrading older tank chassis or fixing damaged tanks. They could produce about that many tanks with peacetime production. In war time production with extra working shifts you can bet tank production will be higher.

    And the Omsk plant is producing new T-80 tanks. This was publicly announced.

    This is completely O/T, but i'll answer only this time. I don't intend to discuss Russian tank production on theme about economy. Omsktransmash announced intention to start production of new tanks. I've never seen any deliveries aside from modernized ones. If you have any proof, please provide.
    Number of 120 NEW and modernized T-90M was taken from 2022 UVZs official publication. Maximum production was 175 T-90 tanks (not all completely new), when they were fulfilling Indian contract. All T-72 are modernizations and not new tanks.

    @GarryB, feel free to move my posts on tank production to appropriate place.
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    Post  Scorpius Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:25 am

    caveat emptor wrote:

    " The IFR’s use of the term “industrial robot” is based on the definition of the International Organization for Standardization: an “automatically controlled, reprogrammable multipurpose manipulator, programmable in three or more axes, which can be either fixed in place or fixed to a mobile platform for use in automation applications in an industrial environment". (ISO 8373:2021) "


    In other words, "pseudo high-tech voodoo, which has an extremely limited range of applications in industrial technological operations."
    For clarity, this is an industrial robot:
    Russian Economy General News: #13 - Page 31 9e6fb4d634eaca7d6aaaa654920e6da4

    For comparison, this is NOT considered an industrial robot:
    Russian Economy General News: #13 - Page 31 Proton-t-500

    Do I need to explain the difference in performance between these two cases, and the level of demand in heavy engineering for each of them?
    As I said earlier: It's nothing more than smoke and mirrors.


    caveat emptor wrote:By most accounts, South Korea can produce most NEW tanks in the world (250 tanks)
    One Uralvagonzavod CAN produce more NEW tanks than the whole of South Korea.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:34 am

    250 tanks a year is about 10 times more than the whole EU is producing. And I am already very generous.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:19 pm

    He also claims that South Korea can make 250 tanks a year when the number is closer to like 50.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2_Black_Panther#Production

    The best they did was 106 K2 tanks in two years. i.e. 53 tanks a year.

    Japan is even worse at producing new tanks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_10#Operators

    The best they did was 14 Type 10 tanks in a single year.

    But I guess even that is better than the US which produces ZERO new tanks a year.

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Tue Nov 19, 2024 6:45 pm

    Scorpius wrote:
    In other words, "pseudo high-tech voodoo, which has an extremely limited range of applications in industrial technological operations."

    Main purpose  of mass industrial robots introduction is to lessen the need for human employees and increase productivity and precision while performing arduous tasks. Russian media is full of news about industrial worker shortage atm. More robots and automation will alleviate that shortage to a degree and free up some workforce.

    Scorpius wrote:
    One Uralvagonzavod CAN produce more NEW tanks than the whole of South Korea.

    Uralvagonzavod against Hyundai Rotem. Thanks to the distinguished comrade generals Grachev and Galkin, Omsktransmash almost completely disappeared and stopped building new T-80 tanks. Interesting trivia is that distinguished comrade general's son is, now, a foreign agent (read traitor) Maxim Galkin. Very interesting character, to say the least. As the saying goes " apple does not fall far from the tree".
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 19, 2024 7:52 pm

    With the magic of western automation they produce 1/10 of luddite Russia. Razz

    Admit it. Your workers are just shit bro.

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