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    OT stuff from the Ukraine war thread

    lancelot
    lancelot


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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:31 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:The message is that Russia's Kaliningrad territory is vulnerable to a blockade, by land and by sea were conflict erupt, and that its rivals will act on it in a much bigger war. No different that Japan reverting to claims on the Kurils on the other side of the continent. They all convey the same message. You (Russia) control this territory today, but it's ours, and we'll take it, sooner or later.

    That message was sent and received. Obviously Russia responds... that is elementary physics... for every action there is a reaction.
    The Russians did. By selling Belarus Iskander systems. With Putin even mentioning the fact that system can use either conventional or nuclear warheads. They had already sold Belarus the S-400 before. In case you do not understand, the Baltics are totally covered within range of Belarus air defense screen and tactical ballistic missiles. So the idea either of those places is defensible, even against tiny Belarus, is a mirage. Let alone Russia.

    As for the Kurils, if the Japanese still do not get the message with combined operations of the Russian and Chinese Navy doing FONOPS around their home islands in a racetrack pattern, I hope they will soon for their own sake.

    Any de facto blockade of Kaliningrad can be interpreted as an act of war. And if you think the US will risk WW3 for Lithuania, for reals, it will about as much as it did for Ukraine. Or less even. They might even go to the point of declaring war on Russia for all Lithuania cares, but it will come to its aid just like UK and France came to Poland's in WW2.

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    ArgentinaGuard


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    Post  ArgentinaGuard Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:17 am

    Does anyone know how much NATO Ukrainian armament Russia accumulates? Must be tons.
    What will they do with all that?

    About Germany. What will German public opinion think of remilitarizing the country in a context of economic crisis like the one that is coming. Will they tolerate it? I doubt that German society wants to sacrifice its "comfort" for increased military spending. On top of that, a progressive left-wing party governs, which sponsors immigration and environmentalism, and which is a disaster when compared to Merkel's conservatives, that they were the same shit, but at least they talked to Russia rationally.. I see a lot of social tension and unrest in the future, and votes for a more Russia-friendly radical right.

    Anyway, no one cares what the Germans do. In the event of an open war with NATO, they must know that they will be reduced to ashes by Russian nuclear weapons. They don't stand a chance.
    They are insects that if they become insolent they can disappear. Don't play with fire is my recommendation. Bet on sovereignty and intelligence. Don't be USA cannon fodder.
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:35 am

    sepheronx wrote:I dont think such tweets are necessary in this thread, but it is good to be placed where the propaganda is.  It is good that you do post them though as it shows everyone that not only how dumb these politicians are, but how evil they are too.
    That said, Lithuania and EU caved and will allow transport now to Kaliningrad from Russia.  I guess Russia really threatened them with something very harsh that made them fold so easily.

    Sure, but the real problem is, that inside the EU at the moment exist several vassal US puppets.
    Even the EU itself can't control them when it comes to matters of its own security.
    They will inflict further damage to the EU economy because the wider aspect of that mess is an economic war of Anglosaxons with Europe.
    And that is the real problem here.

    Werewolf wrote:
    Germany has no MIC nor the backbone of infrastructure to make the military grow.

    You can't be more wrong than that, but it is not you to blame welcome
    Germans did a lot to pretend a fluffy teddy bear Laughing
    They are the world's 4th main arms exporter, increasing the export y/o/y steadily.
    Owning a huge marine industry, most active tanks/APC/AFV business along all the Europe, make the most capable AD systems like MEADS and Iris ... They are just fine!
    This is what I have said: it is not that Europe can't arm itself to the teeth. Sure it can, and that would have been done faster and more effectively than Murica.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:20 am

    Someone should educate this idiot clown about the Russian Empress Catherine the Great. He wouldn't be wishing for a female Russian president had he knew what Catherine did to Europe.

    Or indeed in his own country thatcher...

    The other consequences of anti kurd hatred will be not only Russian support of kurds in upcoming turkish operation

    But it will be open season on turks

    I would say supporting the kurds that also have US support in fighting Syria is the last thing Russia should do... those scandinavian countries are going to screw Turkey once they are in HATO, and when they do what will Russia have achieved working against Turkey now?

    Turkey is a member of an anti Russian alliance called HATO but is more independent and free thinking that other members... instead of punishing them... do nothing... the actions of these scandinavian countries to join HATO will cut relations with Russia which means Russia will no longer have to worry about the west any more... close the borders and ignore their demands.

    That and the fact there is ka52, su24, su35, pantsir, Tor, s400 along the turkish border , so kurds will be reliably protected

    The Kurds are expecting their American allies to help them against Assad and Turkey... let them enjoy US support against Turkey... whether the Kurds win or Turkey does doesn't really mean much to Syria or Russia... let the Americans punish Turkey by helping the Kurds and let Turkey reflect on what it gets for being in HATO... when was the last time Russia actually attacked Turkey or tried to overthrow its government... they have had plenty of conflicts in the past but more recently it is the US that interferes in their government... and arms terrorists in neighbouring countries to try to interfere in other governments they don't like.

    Most likely scenario I see is Turkey getting a deal with Russia to storm kurds but retreats afterward.

    Russia and Syria would actually benefit from that too... Turkey considers Kurds to be terrorists, and those kurds are not friends or allies of Russia or Syria and currently occupy Syrian territory... let Turkey deal with them... wonder if the US will protect the Kurds or just let them hang...

    I don't believe Russia will allow Kurds to be steamrolled

    Why. The Kurds have done Russia no favours and worked together with US and western special forces and even ISIS to try to turn Syria into what Libya is currently...

    After the TB2 supplies to Ukraine, it's time for payback

    I suspect most of the drones they got were sent there by Turkey to get engines fitted.

    If they didn't have TB2 the west would have sent all sorts of their own drones in their place so it would not make much difference...

    Kurds on CIA payroll whose whole claim to 1/3 of Syrian land and control depend on U.S cover/financing will run and switch allegiances to Russia cause some of them will be supposedly deported from Finland?

    Finland and Sweden will delay any transfers until they get signed up for HATO and then refuse to cooperate.

    The Kurds wont talk to Russians... let the Turks fight them... wonder how many American advisors they might get...

    Lol idiot there is no way to spin the ascention of Finland and Sweden in any positive light.

    So what exactly is the negative light... we are told cutting ties will make no difference to either country so there can't be much trade to lose for Russia, and they already hold exercises with HATO... the only change is that they have to designate Kurds as terrorists and send them to their deaths... they are becoming more and more like America every day.

    So tell us again how this hurts or changes anything at all for Russia?

    Any fanboy here that tries to spin this positively is embarrassing himself. The only thing you do by typing garbage and spin is continue to show how much of a clown you're, your ignorance of all of the topics at hand and your agonizing pain deep down. But since I know better about what your purpose is here, and the nature of your account... well, I'm merely addressing the crowd, not really the real you. But that can be said for a lot of accounts here. Total pollution of the topic with absolute nonsense... a side goal.

    So everyone who has a different view from you is a fan boy... your view is the only truth.

    Wow.

    Still defending nazis and terrorist states... you need balls of steel and very flexible morals and ethics... or none at all...

    Continue to defend the west... Russia just misunderstands them and they are really the good guys deep down...

    And just one edit... are you getting better and bullshitting, or are you getting tired of caring...

    What should be done is to reduce Europe to ashes with nuclear weapons. Only three countries. Great Britain, Poland, Germany and France
    Wow factor. They would never expect that.

    You said three countries, but named four provinces of the US with no say in matters... saying three countries and then not naming any... that is funny.

    The main question must be. The Russians are ready to change human history and go all out? In part they already did. One more step to go.

    Destroying the west would allow them to hide their **** ups by trying to destroy Russia... the real challenge is to turn their backs on the west while wearing a good solid knife proof vest... Russia working with the rest of the world and expanding BRICS to create an international system that is actually fair that no country can break the rules of including Russia or China, is the real goal and the best future the rest of the world could actually hope for.

    Finland and sweeden were going to enter that organization no matter what. Just line Russian and China were going to be sanctionned no matter what.

    So very true... if Russia had not invaded Ukraine then Ukraine would have attacked the Donbass and Lugansk regions and then attacked Crimea on some made up bullshit propaganda and the west will blame Russia so all the sanctions and BS that Russia is putting up with now was always going to be used to try to damage relations with Russia... but fortunately for Russia the rest of the world are looking at the west wondering why they are going apeshit over this... the west does worse than this all the time... they only recently left Afghanistan where they were fucking useless and made no progress in helping that country with any of its problems.

    The Ukraine was a basket case... when Russia rebuilds it at least it will be better off than any future it could have had with the west.... if you don't understand look up Haiti... or Afghanistan, or Libya, or Syria... they are destroyers.

    I do not believe that Turkey is the next European theater of war. They probably only gave in out of fear of western economic retaliation that would be devastating to the already reeling Turkish economy. Turkey cannot openly face the West.

    Turkey agreed not to veto because they have been told both countries will do as they are told regarding Kurdish terrorists.

    Whether that is actually the case is another question of course.

    "It's just to sell weapons....duh..."

    Even Ukraine was just to sell weapons... ohh wait...

    Turn the cope off.

    The more you idiots try to damage control this, the bigger the pain, the more embarrassing the spin

    Sell weapons, sell US gas, get Neon cheap, get grain cheap, lots of little things but boils down to big powerful western companies making slightly more money than they were already making... it is what makes America Grate.

    Going down in flames over a Chihuahua is just not worth it. I hope all the Chihuahua's have taken notes.

    Your description answers your question.... it is still barking... it cannot hold a pen or pencil.

    Might makes right. Weakness invites aggression.

    The problem is that when you are dealing with the fucking stupid, Putin making sensible concessions or being polite is seen as weakness so they got a totally wrong impression of what was happening all the time.

    Now that relations with the west are over Putin no longer needs to worry about how it will effect future relations with the west...

    Will the west notice?

    I doubt they notice much.

    It's obvious NATO today can't defend Lithuania with any hope of success using solely conventional force. However they're clearly preparing to change that... all of their moves point to it, in blatant detail even. That will require a Russian response.

    A military conflict with HATO is not going to be conventional... putting lots of troops on the front line isolated from everyone else... why would they not target them with nukes to show where this is all headed...

    II do not believe in the stupidity of politicians, but in bribery and personal interests above the interests of the population that elected them. It's almost impossible for them not to know that there would be side effects. There are technical bodies in every country in the world and organizations specialized in markets with enough information to inform them.

    Of one thing you are absolutely sure: these people are perverse...

    In an environment where dissenting opinions are not allowed and therefore everything is done on consensus... any diverging view is removed from sight and sound so they think everyone just agrees with them and therefore they have support for what they are doing... even when they don't.

    When they see tens or hundreds of thousands of people in yellow jackets protesting then it must be Putin or terrorists or traitors etc etc... couldn't possibly be your own people with a different view but no voice to discuss or even mention what they think because the media are on board with the agenda and no alternative views are allowed.

    The message is that Russia's Kaliningrad territory is vulnerable to a blockade, by land and by sea were conflict erupt, and that its rivals will act on it in a much bigger war. No different that Japan reverting to claims on the Kurils on the other side of the continent. They all convey the same message. You (Russia) control this territory today, but it's ours, and we'll take it, sooner or later.

    And yet they wont even apply a modest barrier to that region. Russia could access Kaliningrad indefinitely via sea... how successful was the Berlin Airlift at cutting off parts of Germany from the west?

    The difference is that urgent material could be sent via air over the sea route without leaving international airspace and ships are actually a very efficient way of moving things...

    The region itself could take a lot of steps to become more self sufficient.

    I can't dismiss the Germans ability to re-militarize nor disagree completely with your assessment as I too have my doubts about their capacity to re-militarize

    They have just destroyed their own access to cheap energy, and if they follow through on all the BS coming from the US cutting off Russian energy of all types is going to be very hard to replace, which is going to seriously impact their economy over the next few decades because higher energy costs always damage economies... even Russia takes steps to keep fuel prices down to prevent increasing costs within their own economy for transport et al...

    But in addition to that they want to massively expand their military... and they are buying F-35s.... good luck with that... do it I say... the costs on their economy will be enormous with no guarantee the extra money will make any real difference... look at how much the US spends... value for money does not exist in the west in regard to weapons purchases and Germany will be buying from her allies and they charge top dollar.

    Germany, except for the CIA NGO controlled Greens and a few contaminated with the SPD and CDU, do not want war with Russia. On the contrary, it is always the naturally interested of the elites, the economy to have Russia as the closest friend (not only because of the raw materials).

    The US spends the most on spying around the world by far, but they spy on their allies more than their enemies because leverage amongst allies means control...

    If handing them big bundles of money doesn't get the desired effect then threatening to reveal their secrets would work instead.

    Of course once they accept big bundles of money you now have them by the balls anyway.

    And no party favourites... politicians on both sides of the two party systems in the west like money and need to be bribed to assure real control.

    Soon the reality will set in, the money is needed elsewhere or the whole social fabric of the country will explode.

    Western propaganda was that NSII was so the pipes through the Ukraine could be shut down, but in reality it was expected by both sides that demand for cheap Russian gas was going to increase in Germany over the next few years especially with coal fired and nuclear powered E generation being shut down for political reasons... but now coal is being restarted... even if Russia keeps delivering Germany is going to have problems they have created for themselves...

    Not conducive to a booming economy by any means.

    Sure, but the real problem is, that inside the EU at the moment exist several vassal US puppets.
    Even the EU itself can't control them when it comes to matters of its own security.
    They will inflict further damage to the EU economy because the wider aspect of that mess is an economic war of Anglosaxons with Europe.
    And that is the real problem here.

    Exactly... the US plan is not just to damage and weaken Russia as a potential rival, but also to damage and weaken the EU because they are also a potential economic rival too.

    Force you to buy gas they don't have enough of for their own needs much of the time... once we have sold to you what we want to sell we don't care what that does to you...

    OT stuff about to be removed... including this post.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:25 am

    Gomig-21 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Germany makes its own tanks and combat aircraft.

    Has a thriving shipyard industry.

    Makes lots of small arms.

    They ordered US jets and gave contracts for the new frigate to danmark iirc because their shipyards make warships that roll over.

    Tell me more about those German warships that roll over, will ya?  I have to see this!  OT stuff from the Ukraine war thread - Page 3 1f604

    The last frigate they made was not standing horizontally but something like 15° on the side. Big issue. You can go check on the web I don't remember the name.

    So for their next class they just gave the contract to a foreign builder.

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:42 am

    Was that the Baden-Württemberg class? IIRC it had a permanent list of 1-2 degrees and the German Navy refused to accept her and sent her back the the yard Razz

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:59 am

    lancelot wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:The message is that Russia's Kaliningrad territory is vulnerable to a blockade, by land and by sea were conflict erupt, and that its rivals will act on it in a much bigger war. No different that Japan reverting to claims on the Kurils on the other side of the continent. They all convey the same message. You (Russia) control this territory today, but it's ours, and we'll take it, sooner or later.

    That message was sent and received. Obviously Russia responds... that is elementary physics... for every action there is a reaction.
    The Russians did. By selling Belarus Iskander systems. With Putin even mentioning the fact that system can use either conventional or nuclear warheads. They had already sold Belarus the S-400 before. In case you do not understand, the Baltics are totally covered within range of Belarus air defense screen and tactical ballistic missiles. So the idea either of those places is defensible, even against tiny Belarus, is a mirage. Let alone Russia.

    As for the Kurils, if the Japanese still do not get the message with combined operations of the Russian and Chinese Navy doing FONOPS around their home islands in a racetrack pattern, I hope they will soon for their own sake.

    Any de facto blockade of Kaliningrad can be interpreted as an act of war. And if you think the US will risk WW3 for Lithuania, for reals, it will about as much as it did for Ukraine. Or less even. They might even go to the point of declaring war on Russia for all Lithuania cares, but it will come to its aid just like UK and France came to Poland's in WW2.

    I would suggest that the Russian hacker attack had a bigger effect than anything else. It posed an immediate threat to Lithuania and to the EU if extended rather than some nebulous nuclear threat out of Belarus at some stage in the future.
    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:17 pm

    Isos wrote:The last frigate they made was not standing horizontally but something like 15° on the side. Big issue. You can go check on the web I don't remember the name.

    So for their next class they just gave the contract to a foreign builder.

    I did, couldn't find anything.  15° is a bit crazy TBH, ThyssenKrupp would never deliver anything with a list that far off.  1° or 2° maybe, or a bit more might be the result of faulty ballast system or irregular weight distribution or even computer error.  But 15° is really hard to believe.

    All that should be figured out during sea trials and repaired prior to delivery.  Hard to believe a reputable enterprise like TK would deliver a listing ship.

    And listing to starboard or port a few degrees doesn't mean "they roll over" lol, come on, brooo! Very Happy

    I'm really not trying to give you a hard time, I'm very interested in learning about this if it's true because of personal reasons.  EN has commissioned 6 MEKO A200s from ThyssenKrupp so it would be nice to know the real story.

    Big_Gazza wrote:Was that the Baden-Württemberg class?  IIRC it had a permanent list of 1-2 degrees and the German Navy refused to accept her and sent her back the the yard Razz

    German navy has received the first two Baden-Wurttemberg class frigates in 2020.  

    http://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2020/june/8580-german-navy-commissions-its-second-f125-baden-wurttemberg-class-modern-frigate.html

    ThyssenKrupp is one of the top naval ship-building companies in the world today.  I'm just trying to figure out the correct details.

    Just FYI, I know there are negative sentiments towards NATO and those supporting Ukraine against Russia which I also think sucks big time, and the west has no business chastising, or sanctioning and actually defacto going to war with Russia by supplying weapons & intel to Ukraine.  So the last thing I'm doing is supporting those whom are doing that including Germany.  I just like to learn the correct info of subjects of interest to me on a personal level.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:35 pm

    The US has clearly demonstrated that manufacturing capability can be lost or seriously degraded even though a country
    does not experience destruction (economic or military). Germany has been degenerating like the rest of the west.

    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:36 pm

    @Gomic-21

    You can read all about the ship's issues here >>

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg-class_frigate

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    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:15 pm

    Mir wrote:@Gomic-21

    You can read all about the ship's issues here >>

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg-class_frigate

    Thank you, Mir.  I looked everywhere except Wikipedia, such a numbskull.  

    Fascinating stuff. "A persistent 1.3° list to starboard" from over-stuffing it with equipment and a super large top deck and bridge area with the first AESA radar in German navy history and a highly automated ship.  It was in fact returned and then subsequently inducted in the German navy.  It must not have been a major issue and fixed it somehow.  Probably unbalanced weight due to too many systems installed at starboard.  

    I'm a sailor (private not military) & avid boater & fishing freak so I spend a lot of time on the water etc. and honestly, a 1.3° list even on a ship that size is barely noticeable.  Sometimes I look at my 30ft bowrider just sitting in its slip and swear the f^&%%&ng thing is listing to port.  The next day it seems fine and a month later that same list appears to be on starboard!!!  Mother @%#^$#^

    Hopefully the MEKOs won't have those issues as the first one of the 6 ordered is about to be delivered.

    OT stuff from the Ukraine war thread - Page 3 FVwX8FTWYAAkFsa?format=jpg&name=large  

    I've also looked into that very visible exhaust discharge at center hull right at the water line and can't figure out exactly what it's from.  I was under the impression that all types of needed gases and fumes are directed out of the stacks and not right at the waterline like that.  Anyone knows what that's from, please share.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:43 pm

    All of these ships have been delivered to the Navy but the lead ship is only expected to be fully operational by mid 2023.
    A 1.3° list is not a huge problem but the ship's overall design seems top heavy which can be problematic in heavy seas.

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