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GarryB
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    S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #4

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    Vann7


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    Post  Vann7 Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    It is confirmation that Syria needs more air defence equipment and that one S-300 battery cannot defend an entire country... something that should already be obvious.


    Well it looks that is not just israel ,the king in bypassing russian air defenses..

    but also Ukraine too.. since those toscka missiles are now targeting russian cities , with impunity.


    https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/10767


    So the problems is not just russian air defenses in syria.. but in RUssia federation too..

    what happened with all this amazing air defenses s-400 and s-300s that could score world records
    interceptions in but apparently ukraine toscka ballistic missiles can penetrate deep inside russian territory and strike russian cities?

    As i said , this doesn't paint a good picture for russia future . if they have problems with a third
    world nation like ukraine , in keeping their soviet era missiles away from russian cities,, even those deep inside russia territory , midway to moscow.. then why they spend so much money on it ? No

    Russian air space protection , doesn't appear to be good enough , if just a soviet era missile from ukraine can go that far into russia airspace ,without being stopped..  IF that missile was intercepted before he start descending , it will have been stopped right at ukraine borders.. or very close to it ,before it reach russian cities..   How many want to bet, it will be a matter of time , ukraine hit moscow with a missile and many civilians killed .  And this is not using low flying drones.. but high altitude flying missiles..  some people need to be fired , including russian president for its incompetence in protecting russian cities.. when it should have been OBVIOUS for absolutely
    everyone ,that ukraine was going to attack russian cities in revenge , for this russian army invasion , and indiscriminate targeting of civilians with dangerous bombs..  


    Wondering what is russia military waiting , for a school to be bombed with civilians in moscow?

    My skepticism of russian air defenses , time proved me right.. they are not good enough to protect russia airspace ,but far from it..  if russia was facing a real full war , from NATO,  those toscka missiles would have been armed by nuclear warheads ,they provided to ukraine and those cities russian destroyed. since nuclear armed missiles don't need to hit ground to destroy cities. they are actually more effective detonating them at 5,000km altitude.  No

    Russia airforce and airdefenses weakness is teaching a lot to the west , thanks to this ukraine conflict
    they provoked. showing the real capabilities of russia in defending its airspace.. and so far , not very impressive ,what russia military have demonstrated versus a third world country like ukraine using soviet era missiles.


    quote from ukraine thread

    S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #4 LOWN6TK

    "After the hard shelling of exclusively civilian areas in Donetsk all day and night (with NATO-supplied artillery), now the Ukrainians apparently fire at similarly exclusively civilian areas of Russia.Quite spot on view, mushroom cloud from a big strike as seen from lake Stodol in Klintsy, consistent with a Tochka-U in the direction of Zaymishche."

    So what will be the excuses now for russia airforce defenses protecting its cities?
    Russian military not there either in russian federation territory protecting their cities?  Rolling Eyes

    Why is an ukraine toscka missile allowed to fly so deep inside russian territory ?  Russian airdefense not in russia?  Rolling Eyes  what is the s-400s and s-300s coverage area again ?  Why can't russia intercept
    toschka missiles far from russian territory . Neutral   No
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:02 am

    Well it looks that is not just israel ,the king in bypassing russian air defenses..

    but also Ukraine too.. since those toscka missiles are now targeting russian cities , with impunity.

    You wonder why so many people have a problem with you Vann, let me explain it... it is because of what you say and how you think.

    Israel has not bypassed any of Russias air defences... they have never hit a single Russian or Russian asset in Syria.

    The intel Il-20 that was shot down was shot down by Syrian air defence forces by accident.

    You can't become king of something you have never done.

    Second, the Ukraine has launched some ineffective pin prick attacks on Russia, while Russia is slaughtering thousands of their soldiers a week.

    The concept of a surprise attack is an unexpected attack that was not anticipated... it might work once, but there is often a cost, and very quickly the enemy will take steps to prevent it happening again... it is certainly nothing to be proud of because once you do it you normally cannot repeat it anyway.

    And thirdly you are a child... an infant, a baby... I bet you refuse to play chess because you have a tantrum with every piece you lose.

    Not suggesting you should ignore losses in war, but you have to be able to accept losses when they occur... you keep telling us what you would do if you were in charge, and while thankfully this can never happen, by your own tantrums you would not last long.

    The Orcs are bastards but they are not stupid... they wont attack where Russia is strong, they look for weak spots and they have the west desperately trying to help them.

    Very occasionally they will get lucky.

    That is when your nappy need changing because you lose it... which is why I call you a baby.

    Shit happens... man up and deal with it.

    If some super weapon is tested in combat, like the latest model T-90 and somehow it gets immobilised and has to be destroyed to prevent it being captured by the enemy THAT IS NOT A FAILURE. You don't scrap the design and start again from scratch like a baby with a temper.

    You investigate what happened.

    Anyone who knows anything about tank design knows that no tank can have 360 degree protection from everything... the weight penalties of having the frontal armour on the sides and rear and belly and roof makes it impossible, so all tanks are always going to have vulnerable areas that the enemy can exploit and it does not take a rocket scientist to realise that for instance an M1A2 Abrams with ammo in its rear turret bustle is vulnerable to even the oldest model RPG-7 if you can hit it. Tracks and wheels are also vulnerable and gas turbine engines produce enormous amounts of heat so any sort of IR guided missile will connect with an Abrams for a mobility kill 99 times out of 100... with a relatively small HEAT warhead.... you could design an 82mm mortar round for the job... an attacking force of Abrams could be destroyed by a single 82mm Vasilesk auto mortar.... change the elevation as you fire to give them slightly different trajectories so they each hit different vehicles... you could fire them from behind a row of hills or trees or buildings... it is a mortar with a range of 4 km...

    The border with Ukraine is large and their artillery is largely mobile and they will be using camouflage techniques to make them look like something else like ambulances and school buses.

    Even when missiles are shot down the debris can be dangerous... I seem to remember in Desert Storm or a later conflict with Iraq that the incoming Scuds were getting grazed by Patriots that couldn't cope with the flight speed of the upgraded Scuds so the patriots were shredding the rear engine sections of the Scuds... but being ballistic rockets their engines had already shut down and they were falling towards their targets and in at least one case the interception of a scud changed its trajectory and it hit a barracks full of US Marines... 28 Marines were killed and over 260 were injured by a Scud missile that would likely have landed in open ground had it not been intercepted by several Patriots.

    Their problem was that the Patriots hit the Scuds but didn't destroy them by setting off their warheads... essentially they knocked them off course and they hit a different piece of ground.

    That would be good with Iskander because Iskander would have hit a target and after interception it likely would have missed, but Iskander are faster than improved scuds and they manouver to evade interception so Patriot probably would not have gotten anywhere near an Iskander.

    With the Scuds they had enlarged fuel tanks to make them fly further and faster but were not strengthened so as they were coming in many were already breaking apart and the warhead is small compared with the rest of the missile, so the Patriots tended to hit the engines and fuel tanks and let the warheads fall on the ground... the lack of accuracy means missing it might save lives and hitting it might cost lives.

    The Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union and in terms of weapons was better equipped than HATO is... the Russians are killing a BUK or OSA every day or every other day.... every week or so an S-300 is taken out... HATO has no equivalents of those in service in these numbers... the panic from Finland and Sweden to join HATO was the fact that the Ukrainians are fighting the way they planned to deal wiht the Russians and even with HATO support they are getting slaughtered by a small force of Russian soldiers that are doing their best not to hurt the local civilians or soldiers that surrender... there is no reason to think they would bother with such nicities fighting Finland or Sweden.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:08 am

    GarryB wrote:there is no reason to think they would bother with such nicities fighting Finland or Sweden.

    Opposit.
    That is the thing most people miss in making comments, and this is bullshit that is being pumped into the heads of regular armchair strategists.

    Anyone who had observed this conflict closely and knows anything about geopolitics as it is, could not miss the fact that both NATO and the EU were terrified.
    Not only by the fact, that Russia has unleashed a war in the first place, but by the way it expanded.
    In a fukin' 2-3 weeks, they took the area equal to the UK, advancing dozens of km daily.
    From the very beginning, it was clear to anyone who knows the shit that the Russkies restrained their might.
    Not only limiting themselves with the targets they hit but with the scale of attacks either.
    They have used 1/3rd of the land forces they have, 1/10th of the airforce (maybe).
    Not targeting civilian and dual-use infrastructure, limiting strikes against army depots&facilities, and playing cat&mouse.
    When it turned out that the political plan failed - withdrew the army from irrelevant directions with a speed&manner that made the enemy wonder why they disappeared, knowing that they are not there anymore after 24h only.
    Russia can in theory unleash a 1000 cruise missiles in a single blow. And repeat within a few hours.
    Only Tu-160 can launch 200+ missiles at once. Adding Tu-95 triples that number, not to mention artillery brigades with Iskanders and the fleet.
    No country in Europe has AD cover even close to the Ukrainian, and I would highly doubt for the US either. All the NATO combined lacks cooperating layers of defense, lacks the mobility, range, and all-round search, track and destroy capability.
    Still, Russkies just melted that defense within the very first 3 weeks of the war, leaving smoking junk behind.
    The most intense AD in Europe could do shit about volleys of incoming missiles.
    They advanced hundreds of km inside the enemy territory, cutting the whole parts of a country to pieces.
    By the end of March, the Ukrainian armed forces ceased to exist as armored one, lost de facto all air fleet, and navy, and was short of fuel.
    By the end of April, they faced the general supply shortage that only deepened with time.
    By the end of May, the Ukrainian army began to fall apart, lost all trained&battle ready personnel, and increased a total mobilization, throwing the freshly recruited cannon fodder into a meatgrinder.
    For 2 months now, we are seeing an one-sided slaughter, with thousands of Ukro soldiers just rotting on the fields, buildings, and forests, with thousands of them MIAs, buried in trenches and strongholds.
    The Russkies lost 10-12k KIAs including all the allied forces and the bulk of it was distributed among the republican corpses.
    Few hundreds of tanks, APCs, trucks, and other gear.
    A dozen planes (maybe), and two dozens of helos (maybe).
    They have dismounted the heaviest and biggest army in Europe, in the Europe's biggest territorial country.
    An army that was highly motivated, with existing nazi ideology, battle hardened, equipped by the whole NATO and EU, with the direct access to NATO recon assets, including satellite, signal, optical and IT.
    An army that was trained to fight Russia for the last 8 years, with all the know&how, gear, and tactics NATO could have provided, with NATO instructors, NATO mercenaries, and NATO active personnel in planning.
    Oh shit no, the real war would not remind this one, that is for sure.
    Those 1000 cruise missiles would strike in the first 2h of war if a country at the receivers end would have the needed amount of targets.
    No, the electric grid would not have been working for 3 months of conflict.
    No, rail transport would not have existed anymore.
    There would have been no Internet, no mobile communication.
    All army depots, bases and infrastructure would have been a big hole in a ground, with volleys of Tu-22 just bombing from 10+ km
    No, the real war would be much, much more hell than that.

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    Post  TMA1 Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:55 pm

    I have been looking online for awhile now and cannot find anything. Do any of you guys know of any info about s-400 being datalinked with fighters? with the s-400 radar giving say su-35 tracking data, or the su-35 giving target or tracking data to s-400 missile battery? if anyone has any info would be much obliged.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:24 am

    There was mention of that sort of datalinking with A-100s and upgraded A-50s but obviously very little detail.

    The talk about the MiG-29K includes full communication with the ships and other aircraft it operates so essentially a MiG-35 flying out to intercept a contact can use its radar and IRST and helmet mounted cueing systems to get locks on targets whose tracking information can be shared with the ships and other aircraft operating with it.

    That should mean a target 230km from a Russian surface fleet equipped with S-400 missiles could use 250km or 400km range missiles to engage the target if the MiG tracks it and passes on target data for the interception... that would be air and surface targets of course... it would be a serious force multiplier as a flight of four MiGs each tracking multiple targets at once would enable the engagement of a large number of threats using ship based weapons right down to sea level... eliminating the problems of the radar horizon for the ships and making them rather more powerful and useful.

    AWACS platforms operating closer to the ships would also share target data with the ships for 360 degree views for low flying threats approaching from any direction... likely incorporating radar in different frequency bands and also thermal and IR frequency systems too.

    I would be surprised if the Su-35 didn't do that too with land and sea based assets.

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    Post  11E Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:02 pm

    Vann7 wrote:


    As i said , this doesn't paint a good picture for russia future . if they have problems with a third
    world nation like ukraine , i

    . since nuclear armed missiles don't need to hit ground to destroy cities. they are actually more effective detonating them at 5,000km altitude.  No

    :

    Ukraine is a 2nd world country (1st world originated from the 2nd WW western aligned countries, the 2nd world countries were the Soviet aligned countries and all the others were 3rd world countries.

    Detonating a nuclear warhead at 5000 km (which is the Thermosphere) will not destroy a city. At most it will generate a non-optimal electromagnetic pulse which affects non-protected electronics. Normally a exoatmospheric detonation is used to f.ck up electronics over a huge area. Even a 5 km detonation is too high for optimal effects.

    Sincerely,
    Lesley[/quote]


    Last edited by 11E on Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  franco Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:27 am

    The 42nd anti-aircraft missile regiment received the S-400 anti-aircraft missile system

    According to the Russian Ministry of Defense , combat crews of the S-400 "Triumph" of the Western Military District are conducting anti-aircraft combat training in the Novgorod region.

    In the Novgorod region, combat crews of the S-400 "Triumph" of the Western Military District, as part of divisions, conduct training in anti-aircraft combat. These exercises are one of the stages of combat training of anti-aircraft missile troops, which includes daily theoretical, practical classes and in the main disciplines: technical, tactical, special and missile and rifle training. In addition, the military personnel of the anti-aircraft missile regiment will work out the skills of conducting anti-aircraft battles in the course of repelling training raids, including the simultaneous impact on the anti-aircraft missile system of ultra-high-speed, highly maneuverable targets, as well as targets flying at extremely low altitudes. Carrying out such exercises during the year allows maintaining the required level of training of military personnel,and also forms the necessary skills for young professionals, bringing the calculations to automaticity.


    The oldest (105 years of continuous history) unit of the Russian Armed Forces is located in the Novgorod region - the 42nd Guards Anti-Aircraft Missile Putilov-Kirov Order of Lenin Regiment of the Russian Aerospace Forces. Previously, the regiment was armed with the S-300PM2 anti-aircraft missile system.

    https://bmpd-livejournal-com.translate.goog/4566046.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:11 am

    This is interesting too... old S-300 missiles could be used against ground targets in the Ukraine if they wanted to... they use track via missile guidance and are therefore capable of very high precision against all target types including ground targets, for which they could be launched on a ballistic trajectory to maximise range... their 150kg HE frag warhead would be equivalent to a small aerial bomb and rather useful against most light targets... they probably have tens of thousands of them.

    In fact I would say modifying them for carriage by air and they would make a rather efficient air launched weapon too... take out the solid rocket fuel and put retractable wings and make it a glide bomb type weapon that is much lighter than the original weapon... perhaps a weapon for heavy drones to use against distant point targets... in fact leaving the solid rocket fuel onboard and they could be very long range anti radiation missiles with very high speed and enormous range... with a surface launch of 200km being launched at 700km/h at 12km altitude they could probably reach targets 600km away, which would make them ideal for rapid response against enemy artillery radar and SAMs because one drone could cover a radius of 600km each... the problem would be that S-300 missiles are almost 2 tons each... so maybe using them from a modified transport plane or something.

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