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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #19

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 03/07/22, 12:00 am

    Nothing can defend against missiles 100%, even subsonic.

    Not every single time, but we are talking problem and solution and the problem of mass subsonic missile attacks on shipping has traditionally been AWACS and fighter aircraft along with AEGIS class cruisers that work together to shoot down the problem.

    Next generation Russian destroyers will have thousands of missiles... the Russians are already working on Active Radar Homing mini missiles to protect vehicles carried in their hundreds on each vehicle to defend against artillery shells, so how many missiles do you think a Destroyer or Cruiser might be carrying?

    They already have land based S-400 missiles that can reach 250km or 400km range targets... and with friendly fighter aircraft near the incoming threats that means they can engage targets at 400km down to sea level... S-400 missiles also have a back up surface to surface role too (with A-100 support most likely) where the AWACS platform finds the targets and directs the S-400 to the area where the enemy targets are for them to find and lock on to as they approach them... coordinated by the A-100.

    By the time they have new build destroyers in service which will be a minimum of 5 years away possibly 8-10, the new models of the long range missiles with mini missile payloads where a big heavy missile like S-400 or R-37 launch and carry the payload ballistically 300-400km where the payload (150kgs or 60kgs) respectively for each missile might contain mini missiles of perhaps 10kgs each, which means 15 missiles for the S-400 and 6 missiles for the R-37 which will fly a high parabolic flight path for max range and as they descend the mini missiles are release and start to scan for viable targets or maybe the nose mounted radar on the missile finds targets and allocates them to missiles as it releases them on their way through enemy territory.

    I'd wager real odds are like 70-80% vs. supersonic and 80-90% vs. subsonic of a shootdown of a cruise missile. Only takes a one or a few to disable a carrier or sink an escort.

    But that is the thing... comparing a group of ships with an aircraft carrier to a group of ships without the aircraft carrier... the first warning the ships without a carrier might be missile heat signatures coming over the horizon 20km away or so... takes quite a few minutes to power up large radar and big SAM systems so they would be fucked even with a moderate number of incoming missiles... they would only have CIWS to defend themselves, whcih in the west is a bit thin and weak... a few Phalanx and some SEA RAM and maybe a couple of Goal Keepers.

    With a carrier you will detect the incoming enemy forces at extended ranges... time to power everything up and be ready and to launch extra aircraft armed with AAMs in decent numbers...

    And each ring of defence will have an effectiveness rating... in Syria TOR and Pantsir and BUK had 100% shoot down records... not perfect because sometimes more than one missile was launched at a target but all the air threats were shot down... the famous attack with 103 missiles launched and 71 shot down... others were jammed and flew into the ground... the weapons that hit their target hit disused buildings that were not defended so of course they didn't get shot down.

    Now to be clear that was a US and western attack at a time when Syria didn't have an IADS... it was just vehicles working by themselves... using their own radars and shooting down what they could and quite frankly they did a much better job that has traditionally been done by Arab states defending themselves from western missile strikes.

    WIth carrier support that group of ships will be ready for the incoming threats, radars on and missiles warmed up and ready, guns ready... sensors and radars listening and looking... friendly aircraft can use their radar to monitor incoming threats... no hills or river valleys to hide in or sneek through.

    With aircraft spotting targets for them their very long range SAMs can engage targets out to max range effectively making the significantly more powerful than the same missiles on the same ships with no air support.

    In my opinion one thing sorely missing from the Russian air-based AShM arsenal is a long-range (1200-1500km) subsonic (maybe terminal supersonic) missile capable of being carried by Su-27 family planes (maybe even MiG-29s). 4x per plane for Flankers, 2x per MiG-29 size plane.

    You do know there are air launched versions of Club...

    And likely upgraded hypersonic scramjet powered versions of Kh-31....

    Ukraine has a seemingly endless supply of Tochkas (and Su-25s and MiG-29s).

    As they repair them and use them they get shot down and intercepted respectively... most of the time they don't reach their targets and are shot down while revealing their launch positions each time...

    Sometimes they will get their home base and other times not... as long as they are not doing a lot of damage it does not matter.

    TOR is ideal for shooting down Tochka and they have a range of missiles ideal for aircraft even flying very low.

    To be fair flying as low as these pilots are flying requires enormous skill but flying so low and so fast likely means their chances of survival after being shot down would be quite low... how many flight crew do they have?

    It is not like their attacks are devastating or anything.

    What in the world in going to launch Kalibr-M? It's going to be a ship or a bomber. Maybe the Iskander system (1 per ground vehicle?).

    Might come as a shock but the Russians and Soviets were not as air centric as the west... it is easier to shoot planes every time they take off than wipe out all the trucks and shipping crates on trucks and rail wagons and ships in any country...

    Kinzhals are expensive.

    They are air launched Iskanders, of which the Russian Army has quite a large number of batteries in service and the missile in full scale production.

    They wont be free but a fraction of the price of western equivalents like Lance and ATACMS missiles...

    Is Kalibr-M confirmed hypersonic? 4500KM range and hypersonic? That's gotta be one hell of a big rocket.

    No, it is the navy version equivalent of the Kh-101/102 subsonic missile.

    The first missiles were 3,000km range and 6m long and about 1.5 tons each... Kh-55 and the naval Calibr... which was 533mm calibre and could be launched through torpedo tubes. With a solid rocket booster they could be launched from vertical tubes like the UKSK, which was scaled to accomodate the Yakhont/Onyx/Brahmos missile... so tubes big enough for 750mm calibre 10m long 3 ton missiles were being loaded with Calibr missiles... 1.5 tons and 6m long and 533mm calibre so when loaded into a UKSK launch tube or indeed the 11 metre long weapon bays on the Tu-160 there was a lot of empty space not really being used.

    The solution for aircraft was the Kh-101/102 that is a 7.4m long 750mm calibre missile that weighs 2.5 tons and has a flight range of 5,000km... the same problem with ships so they applied the same solution... older missiles still produced as they can be launched through torpedo tubes, but bigger Calibres mean much longer flight range while filling up the tube better.

    There will be a bigger Calibre missile with a rocket final stage for low altitude high speed terminal phase attack of course... not much information around except for the exported old model.

    They need a cheap, partially stealthy (Kh-59MK2 style), medium-size, Flanker family capable (for very high # of launch platforms, unlike Kinzhal), subsonic or sub-supersonic combo, very long range AshM that will have satellite targeting capabilities to really deny NATO navy any leeway to move around.

    They are getting a new range of missiles that can be carried externally or internally with quite impressive performance... one missile to replace the Kh-15 is a short range attack missile... mach 6 ramjet powered, 1,500km range, 1.5 ton weight. amongst other new designs like the new Kh-50 compact subsonic attack missile.

    Kalibr-M is hypersonic and said to be somewhat longer than the current Kalibr at 11m?, but is launched from subs, ships and aircraft.

    it is longer than the current Kalibre because the current Kalibre is 6m long... and like the difference between the Kh-55SM 3,000km range subsonic land attack cruise missile and the Kh-102 5,000km range subsonic cruise missile that is 7.4m long and of rather larger calibre (533mm compatible with torpedo tubes for Calibre, vs 750mm calibre-M... same diameter as the Onyx/Yakhont/UKSK missile tube...)

    Personally I am very happy with the Russian ASM type missiles - even the old Kh-22's can enter a building through the front door!

    Who needs subsonic when you have supersonic and even hypersonic!

    Exactly... they seem to be rather effective against air defences that started otu more formidible than any HATO air defences... one of the reasons they adapted their anti ship missiles to land attack capacity too.

    They definitively have too much solutions to deal with nato ships.

    They do, but they are seriously limited by their antiquated bigger ships to their own waters, so supporting allies in Africa simply would be a real problem.

    They need to get a few Corvettes into serial production and decide on the standard Gorshkov or the new enlarged design... which they can only do after testing the new boat which will have to wait till it is in the water and they can test it of course... and then get some Destroyers laid down... serial production of smaller boats will free up their older boats like Kirovs and Slavas and Udaloys to operate further afield with perhaps a few support frigates... but ultimately they will be able to use ship upgrades for teh older vessels to test new hardware like big radar and sonar and new gun mounts... they could replace the 130mm gun on the later Kirovs with a 152mm gun to put on to destroyers.

    Imagine attacking a small group of enemy ships... at 150km you open fire with your 152mm gun firing 90 rounds per minute from two guns with autoloaders... the shells have GLONASS guidance and small control fins to steer them to specific coordinates... the warhead payloads will be tiny but could potentaily take out radar and optics or even the bridge... the Sovremmeny destroyer carried over 1,000 130mm shells... a ship like a cruiser could carry more than that... how do you deal with guided HE rounds falling from the sky with dozens in the air at a time... and they still haven't launched any missiles at you... some shells could be jamming rounds attracting your missiles to them... some could release chaff and flares to make the job of defence much harder.

    Couldn't find anything concrete myself but I am pretty damn sure that I read somewhere that the Kalibr-M will be part of a new generation of hypersonic missiles under development - but I could be wrong about this.

    I do remember reports making claims it was hypersonic, but I think it is just journalist BS... like calling the MiG-41 PAK-DP a 6th gen fighter.... just ignorance.

    Besides a low flying subsonic missile for land attack is still a difficult problem for the defender and the extra range means it can be routed to come from an unexpected direction... the orcs launched Tu-141 drones that flew through several HATO countries and was not intercepted at all despite their likely intense attention being focused on the region to help their nazis.

    I do love the cocky no-fucks-given attitude, he knows he is untouchable

    This guy has some balls on him and knows he will be allowed to keep them (unlike some poor shmucks who will spend rest of their lives as living jokes and will go unavenged)


    Looking forward to seeing this guy getting released and walking away scott free just like his Nazi-bros yesterday

    Best way to fight Nazism is to make sure that maximum possible amount of Nazis walks free, right? Good old Soviet WW2 approach

    You get very bitter and pissy when things go the way you don't want them to go... even when they don't but you assume they will anyway.

    Those balls will push him to go back on the front and get captured again.

    Win win for russians that get back their soldiers.

    Nobody has released this guy except PD... in his own head...

    He is blaming the Russians for things they have not done yet.

    The reason he is cocky is because he is being held by Russians... all they have to do is hand him over to his fellow Ukrainians in the Donbass or Lugansk for trial and he will sing a different song and likely not be released any time soon.

    Had a talk with a guy who is captain in Serbian Army and he says that everyone he knows is flabbergasted both professionally and personally at that Russian river crossing fiasco (among other things, recent Nazi POW liberation fuckup included)

    I was chatting to a squirrel the other day about the attack on the northern fleet by Kievs forces, led by the Ghost of Kiev, and all the damage that did to Russian prestige and we really agree that drinking that early in the day is not a good thing.

    When we talked about Putin surrendering to HATO and Kiev and begging for mercy and hoping they can still be friends after he signs over ownership of OAK and Gasprom to Kiev in partial compensation, he had a little tear in his eye that western propaganda was getting more and more effective even as their situation was getting worse and worse.

    Just putting that out there. Rolling Eyes

    We do not know which vehicles those belonged to.

    Actually we do because most were Ukrainian... those BMP-1s had 73mm gun turrets but the BMP-1s in the Russian military have had the 30mm gun turrets of the BTR-82 fitted to their BMP-1s.

    That situation was discussed and in my opinion totally debunked in terms of the story Kiev was trying to sell.

    Now I ain't no metallurgist, but it probably doesn't help that this thing is towed from the gun tube - something no other towed gun does!

    Not really true actually... the D-30 Soviet 122mm howitzer has a towing attachment under its muzzle...

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #19 - Page 36 D-30_210

    Very popular and quite accurate... not a huge range... but a very good piece.

    They wanted light gun, at any cost, and traded robustness for it. It works for US, as it mostly relies on air power for fire support. Ukraine doesn't have that luxury.

    It works OK for the US because they don't use towed artillery and use air support?

    It should still be able to work.

    I seem to remember spending days defending why Russia does not have an M777 equivalent and how wonderful and amazing it is and Russia needs to make their own equivalent blah blah blah...

    This information puts things in a new light however.

    Ukraine will not be settled until then, contingencies exist, but currently the Patriotic bloc of Russia understands that the victory of Trump already changes the chess board considerably

    I think you overestimate the Orange man... he got elected promising more productive relations with Russia and ended up making them much worse... he was easily goaded into doing the opposite of what he said he wanted on multiple occasions by people who are not very smart to start with.

    He sees himself as a great negotiator and clearly expected to break all the agreements the US had made with the Russians and Iranians and anyone else and then negotiate a new deal that is better for the US... he failed completely and made everything much worse... who will sign agreements with the US now?

    As if China has anything to assist Russia in behind the scenes with its zero war experience.

    China knows all it needs to do in that regard is to not join the west in their sanctions and accusations of war crimes, and Russia will do the same for China when the west manages to engineer a war in that region.

    The head of the American intelligence: China supports the special operation and helps Russia in its conduct in Ukraine

    Chinese authorities are providing Russia with "behind-the-scenes assistance in various ways" against the backdrop of a special operation in Ukraine, said Avril Haynes, director of national intelligence of the United States.

    HAHAHA... maybe they are supplying them with WMDs?

    Yeah and they will just keep killing all the russians their captured too including valuable sukhoi pilots that takes years to be trained and on which you spend millions of dollars just in kerosene to let them fly.


    And just imagine the moral of the troops on the front that know their leaders won't exchange them and will end up shot if captured.

    They are currently treating him well, but PD is claiming they will just let him go... there is no evidence this will happen at all.

    Bloomberg notes that Hungary, on the one hand, decided to bring its position on Ukraine closer to EU policy , but at the same time continues to cooperate with Russia in the field of energy. Orban does not want to refuse Russian help to expand the Paks nuclear power plant.

    If he is going to support the economic isolation of Russia from the entire EU then does he not realise that even if the EU does not stop buying Russian gas and oil and coal that Russia might decide in response to EU sanctions to impose their own sanctions... guess what is left to sanction... nuclear power stations, gas and oil and coal.... etc etc.





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    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski 03/07/22, 12:07 am



    Regime change can be done by : surgical decapitation of regime or bringing about conditions for the population to form new government or military takeovers of land and forcing regime elements to flee . The first route provides no guarantee of non-replacements , the second needs a lot of social engineering and the last route is costly in terms of human lives . Once Russian regions are liberated by vote or by force , then if the Ukrainian side arms with WMD , Russia can respond by doing the same or by taking out such units . This last option is the most direct way of addressing problem .
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    Post  Regular 03/07/22, 12:21 am

    kvs wrote:Russia still needs to stage regime change in Kiev.  

    If they do strike the Crimean bridge like UA promises, then we might as well see the decapitation of the current gov. They are literally asking for it.

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    Post  owais.usmani 03/07/22, 12:23 am

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    Post  Mir 03/07/22, 12:32 am

    ^ Quite telling isn't it! Very Happy

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    Post  kvs 03/07/22, 12:43 am

    Mir wrote:^ Quite telling isn't it! Very Happy

    I think it is a photoshop. Russia has not openly stated that it would grab Kiev. It does not make sense for passports to do this
    but not Lavrov and Putin.

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    Post  JohninMK 03/07/22, 01:15 am

    franco wrote:Bloomberg: The head of Hungary changed the tone on the issue of Ukraine and anti-Russian sanctions

    According to the US news agency Bloomberg, the head of the Hungarian government, Viktor Orban, spoke less harshly than usual yesterday on anti-Russian sanctions against the EU and Ukraine.

    Orban said that Hungary would no longer oppose the anti-Russian measures of Brussels, unless, of course, these measures affect the energy sector. In addition, the Hungarian prime minister said that his country would support Ukraine as a “defensive” side.

    Bloomberg notes that Hungary, on the one hand, decided to bring its position on Ukraine closer to EU policy , but at the same time continues to cooperate with Russia in the field of energy. Orban does not want to refuse Russian help to expand the Paks nuclear power plant.

    He no doubt has his eyes on the Euro 6B or so that the EU is threatening to withhold. Sharp cookie is Orban.

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    Post  PapaDragon 03/07/22, 02:04 am

    kvs wrote:Russia still needs to stage regime change in Kiev. Shearing off some land from the current freak show will not change the threat...

    Regime change can only happen once Kiev influence is reduced to 500km around city itself and after every single Ukrop capable of carrying a firearm is turned into fertilizer and not a moment sooner

    We saw what happens when you try regime ahead of schedule during Plan A fiasco

    Kill them all first, change regime later

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    Post  PapaDragon 03/07/22, 02:11 am

    owais.usmani wrote:

    Paper pushers are optimistic

    It won't matter for shit though if the bitches from Foreign Ministry get back in charge



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    Post  LMFS 03/07/22, 02:17 am

    caveat emptor wrote:They wanted light gun, at any cost, and traded robustness for it. It works for US, as it mostly relies on air power for fire support. Ukraine doesn't have that luxury.

    Just creating a good robust gun was not enough to syphon premium dollars to the pockets of the MIC, they needed to pitch some "unique selling point" to the corrupt officials in charge of procurement. So they created an ultra expensive shitty product that breaks whenever used. They indeed better rely on air power, because with guns like this their artillery is clearly just for the show Embarassed

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    Post  PapaDragon 03/07/22, 02:33 am

    GarryB wrote:They are currently treating him well, but PD is claiming they will just let him go... there is no evidence this will happen at all....

    140 Nazis were released just yesterday, this one simply needs to wait his turn

    And don't give me that BS about prisoner exchange, they could have exchanged some random nobodies instead of war criminals

    This is after you disregard the fact that the best way of freeing your POWs is to triple down on exterminating the enemy



    Also how the f*ck did Ukrops manage to get their hands on this many Russian POWs?

    I was told that no conscripts were used in this operation

    So why did those "professional" soldiers just throw down their weapons and gave up? Tough when picking up their paychecks but not tough enough to do the job they get those paychecks for?



    We had loads of grunts getting captured in wars here which is what happens when you believe in the old commie "brotherhood and unity" bullshit

    They all quickly realized that they will not be able to talk their way out of that fuckup






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    Post  LMFS 03/07/22, 02:34 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Regime change can only happen once Kiev influence is reduced to 500km around city itself and after every single Ukrop capable of carrying a firearm is turned into fertilizer and not a moment sooner

    We saw what happens when you try regime ahead of schedule during Plan A fiasco

    Kill them all first, change regime later

    Demilitarization looks about the right term to describe that, doesn't it?

    Once the repression apparatus is destroyed, population and alternative elites will take care of the rest and tear the Western puppet regime to shreds. Put the nazis in the flame and let them cook until they soften, Russia has more than enough gas to keep the fire burning for years to come...

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    Post  Vann7 03/07/22, 02:40 am

    More evidence , of Russian airforce inadequate and outdated combat tactics , they still using those outdated anti armor weapons , subsonic missiles , that are verrrry slow and inadequate against moving targets. I have seen this misses  A  LOT  in the syrian war..  That A Ka-52 fire a missile at a terrorist
    moving car and years or more later , when the manually guided missile reach the car , it miss. lol1


    Evidence of Russia airforce  fighting in Ukraine with poor efficiency.

    In this example the ka-52 pilot require to fire to subsonic shit missile at an
    Ukraine target moving vehicle  but he requires 2 strikes , instead of one to finish the job.



    observations..

    -The entire thing require a precious 1 minute or more of time to destroy a moving target.
    -In this car was full of explosives and reaching a check point russian soldiers would have died .
    -Also for this attack helicopters to hit anything with missiles they need to stop flying and hover above
    a place ,which makes them highly vulnerable and easy to anti tank missiles , as Ukraine have been destroying many of them..  
    -This is an operation could have been much more safer AND far more efficient using an orion drone
    or any other heavier strike drone with a supersonic strike infra red guidance missile. The fact that Russia is not using an strike drone or kamikazi cheap drone for such operations and instead use manned attack helicopters shows Russia have a major serious problem with strike drones capabilities,
    that their inventories are very low and can't be used every day , but in special times only.
    If Russia is so incompetent in electronics in mass production of strike drones , they should buy turkey drones instead or ask iran or china help.
    -This poor performance of ka-52 in the battle field could explain why India , skipped them ,when --Russia offered them and instead prefered american apache helicopters because of million times  superior hellfire fire and forget missiles.

    Russia military needs to stop thinking in soviet times ,what worked in the past ,not necessarily will work that well today.. tactics and weapons needs to be modernized or you risk losing a lot of people
    in more modern wars.. just like in Ukraine , that russia is losing so many thousands of soldiers more than in afghan soviet war at this rate.


    Russian military need to get their  shit together and stop using outdated world war 1 trench fighting tactics ,and stop using subsonic shitty unguided rockets whenever precision is required to get target quick and fast , and stop using outdated manually guided missiles against moving targets .
    Russia needs fire and forget smart missiles ,something like Brimstorm missiles..

    This is the kind of missiles that Russian planes Su-25 ,Ka-52 and all Combat jets should be using in
    ukraine against armor or any moving targets.

    This is what Russian airforce need against moving targets. something similar to
    brimstone missiles.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #19 - Page 36 Missile_MBDA_Brimstone


    This missiles are an evolution of hellfire misisles ,fire and forget smart missiles , automatic target acquisition. This is why Russia have been unable to achieve air superiority at all in Ukraine after 120 days of war , not even in cities next to its borders ,which should be extremely embarrassing to say the least, and require them to use suck shitty tactics , of firing unguided rockets randomly with
    su-25s , without even having visual contact with the target ,  in other words desperate try for lucky shots. Totally useless against moving targets and very inefficient and close to useless and highly inefficient way of combat against fixed ground targets.

    So far this conflict have proven ,NATO have the edge hands down in precision and ultra precision weapons and strike drones and 24 hours real time monitoring of the battle field.  and that Russia still
    using super outdated tactics , that is costing them many thousands of russian soldiers lives because they still using outdated hardware and tactics . No

    basically what Russia is doing in this conflict is trying to win the war with unguided artillery alone and cruisse missiles..  This is why those ukraine convoys are not smashed and all those supply of weapons from europe always reach the front line and russia can't stop them. Because Russia airforce
    is fighting in a highly inefficient way and with inadequate weapons.


    Im not convinced yet . Russian airforce is yet to proof , their close air support is good for the job at all , they haven't demonstrated yet that attack hellicopters and su-25 with the weapons they use are good for close air support in modern wars . A strike drone is way cheaper than a Ka-52 and you don't risk a human life and their performance is far better too. Those attack hellicopters are VERY HUGE targets practice for anti tank weapons ,and also heavy machine gus , whenever they are launching those shitty subsonic missiles . and unguided rocket a big mistake ,for future wars against NATO or countries armed by them.


    Last edited by Vann7 on 03/07/22, 03:01 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Arkanghelsk 03/07/22, 02:58 am

    https://youtu.be/BDLqEuXU6MY

    Everyone I highly recommend this guy, for the minutiae of the conflict

    He was dead on last week as to where the offensive would take place

    Take note of what he's saying

    Probable second crossing of severskiy donets north of Grigorivka

    Total encirclement of Lisichansk soon

    Mutipronged push from Yampol to Slavyansk and Seversk

    And bakhmut

    Take note of the Kharkov offensive, they are already on the northern outskirts,

    So Kharkov is before Odessa

    **VSU is switching to a new tactical mode

    Instead of defending, VSU will try to "hug" the SV of Russia - in other words hanging back did not work for Ukraine , they were decimated by rocket and artillery fire and lost the positions anyway

    This won't change anything, except make the clashes more intense, and the Ukrainians will be annihilated faster

    But it seems there is a growing desperation from political leadership, and so the military is advising to send VSU and territorial defense into head on attacks to pre empt the Russian advance to Seversk

    So we will see the first "close attacks" by the Ukrainians, where they will wait for Russian army to approach some prepared positions and then charge at the front to force a breakdown in the advance

    I do not believe they will be successful, but it is a desperate attempt to prevent donbass from being liberated

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    Post  Ned86 03/07/22, 03:15 am

    Vann7 wrote:More evidence , of Russian airforce inadequate and outdated combat tactics , they still using those outdated anti armor weapons , subsonic missiles , that are verrrry slow and inadequate against moving targets. I have seen this misses  A  LOT  in the syrian war..  That A Ka-52 fire a missile at a terrorist
    moving car and years or more later , when the manually guided missile reach the car , it miss. lol1
     
    Great video which shows you real close support. Thanks for sharing.
    Btw, Vikhr misiles are supersonic and they are faster than Brimstone...

    Vann7 wrote:
    In this example the ka-52 pilot require to fire to subsonic shit missile at an
    Ukraine target moving vehicle  but he requires 2 strikes , instead of one to finish the job.
     
    Nope, they fired two supersonic state of the art missiles and finished the job.

    observations..

    Vann7 wrote:
    -The entire thing require a precious 1 minute or more of time to destroy a moving target.
     
    This is your fantasy and nothing to do with reality.
    Vikhr missile needs 14s to hit target 6km away and 28s to reach it max. effective range of 10km. So 1 min. is not needed even when firing at max. range (which is not often a case).

    Vann7 wrote:
    -In this car was full of explosives and reaching a check point russian soldiers would have died .
     
    Well if car was full of naked women then it will be good Smile

    Vann7 wrote:
    -Also for this attack helicopters to hit anything with missiles they need to stop flying and hover above a place ,
    You don't need to stop flying, just need to have target in visual sight.

    Vann7 wrote:
    which makes them highly vulnerable and easy to anti tank missiles , as Ukraine have been destroying many of them..
     
    Usually you don't use antitank missiles against choppers.
    Ukr destroyed few 5a-52, which is kinda normal in the war especially when you have thousands of MANPADs.

    Vann7 wrote:
    -This is an operation could have been much more safer AND far more efficient using an orion drone
    or any other heavier strike drone with a supersonic strike infra red guidance missile. The fact that Russia is not using an strike drone or kamikazi cheap drone for such operations and instead use manned attack helicopters shows Russia have a major serious problem with strike drones capabilities,
    that their inventories are very low and can't be used every day , but in special times only.
     
    Maybe drone could be used, but helicopters have their advantages too. otherwise all nations would stop using helicopters and switched to drones. Drones are the future, but still they can't replace Ka-52 or Ah-64 apache in real fight.

    Vann7 wrote:
    If Russia is so incompetent in electronics in mass production of strike drones , they should buy turkey drones instead or ask iran or china help.
     
    Nope they don't need more decoys and targets like Turkish drones for AD systems Smile

    Vann7 wrote:
    -This poor performance of ka-52 in the battle field could explain why India , skipped them ,when --Russia offered them and instead prefered american apache helicopters because of million times  superior hellfire fire and forget missiles.
     
    Ka-52 is todays best helicopters in its class and this SMO proved that.
    Using that logic it means that Indians choose Su-30 because it is milion times superior to the F-15E, F-18 and T-90 is milion times superior to the M1A2 Abrams?

    Vann7 wrote:
    Russia military needs to stop thinking in soviet times ,what worked in the past ,not necessarily will work that well today.. tactics and weapons needs to be modernized or you risk losing a lot of people
    in more modern wars.. just like in Ukraine , that russia is losing so many thousands of soldiers more than in afghan soviet war at this rate.
     
    You should start thinking finally that war is not a game or Hollywood movie.
    Russia is fighting real army supported by NATO with most modern weapons and it is winning big. The only one loosing soldiers is VSU, russia didn't lose nothing even close to the Afghan war.

    Vann7 wrote:
    Russian military need to get their  shit together and stop using outdated world war 1 trench fighting tactics ,and stop using subsonic shitty unguided rockets whenever precision is required to get target quick and fast , and stop using outdated manually guided missiles against moving targets .
    Russia needs fire and forget smart missiles ,something like Brimstorm missiles..
     
    NATO should start using outdated missiles not Russia. Russia uses all sorts of missiles, from Hypersonic to subsonic, something NATO could dream about.
    If they use unguided bombs and missiles from time to time, it is their choice and they know why they are doing it. Because, they are fighting real army not Taliban and civilians.


    Last edited by Ned86 on 03/07/22, 03:22 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Mir 03/07/22, 03:16 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    Im not convinced yet . Russian airforce is yet to proof ,  their close air support is good for the job  at all , they haven't demonstrated yet that attack hellicopters and su-25 with the weapons they use are good for close air support in modern wars . A strike drone is way cheaper than a Ka-52 and you don't risk a human life and their performance is far better too. Those attack hellicopters are VERY HUGE targets practice for anti tank weapons ,and also heavy machine gus , whenever they are launching those shitty subsonic missiles . and unguided rocket a big mistake ,for future wars against NATO or countries armed by them.

    How many Ka-52's did the Russians loose so far?
    BTW it is no easy task to hit a target (every time) in the heat of battle. Things do get a bit hectic you know - esp when you're under fire.
    We have a saying in the sporting arena >> "go look at the score board" to get the real picture.

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    Post  caveat emptor 03/07/22, 03:36 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Take note of the Kharkov offensive, they are already on the northern outskirts,

    So Kharkov is before Odessa

    **VSU is switching to a new tactical mode

    Instead of defending, VSU will try to "hug" the SV of Russia - in other words hanging back did not work for Ukraine , they were decimated by rocket and artillery fire and lost the positions anyway
    "Hug" would work better in large urban areaa and with experienced infantry. I'm not sure if it can work on current battlefield, where Seversk is biggest urban agglomeration and rest are villages and open terrain. Also, they are using mostly reservists now. They will get obliterated by helis.
    As for Kharkov, there's nothing that points to imminent offensive. Neither they have manpower for it, in the area. They would have to attack from south first and cut supply lines. Kharkov is a huge city. Much bigger than Mariopol. I believe they will just work on" softening" of defences. Hence everyday strikes. If you look at it, they hit Nikolaev also every day and it is much easier target to take. That also might be next.
    But let them first finish Donbas. There's still a lot to do.

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    Post  Belisarius 03/07/22, 03:54 am

    43rd separate rifle battalion of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from Zhytomyr.

    1. As a result of incompetent management, the personnel suffered significant losses
    2. They were thrown to the front line without artillery support and the necessary material support.
    3. The commanders did not consider the soldiers as people.
    4. The personnel of the unit is demoralized.
    5. Some were written off as "missing" in order not to pay salaries.
    6. After protests and refusal to take up positions, they were declared deserters.
    https://t.me/levigodman/3851

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    Post  Belisarius 03/07/22, 03:57 am

    ‼⚠Looks like the center of Lisichansk has fallen. Ramzan Akhmatovich Kadyrov posted this video on his channel, of raising the Victory banner in the Lisichansk center.
    https://t.me/TheEternalUkrainian2/10492

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    Post  Backman 03/07/22, 04:02 am

    Ukraine has a seemingly endless supply of Tochkas (and Su-25s and MiG-29s) wrote:
    .

    It's an old Soviet military industrial state. So they have lots laying around. They manage to monkey wrench some stuff into the air. But it is quickly targeted and then we hear about it

    But what's not happening is that they don't have hangers full of combat ready jets that they are rolling out as needed.

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    Post  Belisarius 03/07/22, 04:07 am

    Lisichansk is under Russian control, info from Wagner
    https://t.me/TheEternalUkrainian2/10504

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    Post  LMFS 03/07/22, 04:16 am

    Backman wrote:.

    It's an old Soviet military industrial state. So they have lots laying around. They manage to monkey wrench some stuff into the air. But it is quickly targeted and then we hear about it

    But what's not happening is that they don't have hangers full of combat ready jets that they are rolling out as needed.

    They receive every available plane in the region. At the end of the day, is not only 404 that is being demilitarized, but the whole Eastern poodles and a good part Western NATO countries, which are throwing all their expendable and not expendable reserves in the war. They are betting the farm on a losing horse and they will have to live with the consequences afterwards, that is, a military collapse of the whole Eastern theater in face of the Russian pressure. That is when the risk of nuclear conflict will rise exponentially.

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    Post  Isos 03/07/22, 04:23 am

    One thing they clearly miss in this war is a mig-25 with a good in real time recco pod to spot targets.

    A su-57 and its stelath or a checkmate with a optical pod would also help spot targets on the front. It could sneak around undetected.

    They seem to be unable to locate and dzstroy mobile ukrainian artillery like himars or cesars.
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    Post  Regular 03/07/22, 04:32 am

    Vann7 wrote:More evidence , of Russian airforce inadequate and outdated combat tactics , they still using those outdated anti armor weapons , subsonic missiles , that are verrrry slow and inadequate against moving targets. I have seen this misses  A  LOT  in the syrian war..  That A Ka-52 fire a missile at a terrorist
    moving car and years or more later , when the manually guided missile reach the car , it miss. lol1

    Good example, but Russia does have Hermes, just not in the mass service yet. Also, lancet drones can be helicopter launched too

    So far this conflict have proven ,NATO have the edge hands down in precision and ultra precision weapons and strike drones and 24 hours real time monitoring of the battle field. and that Russia still
    using super outdated tactics , that is costing them many thousands of russian soldiers lives because they still using outdated hardware and tactics . No

    Yes and now. Russia does need more precision weapory for helicopters and airforce, but who doesn't? NATO would have wasted their entire supply and would face same problem. Or they wouldn't be able to operate in AA rich environment. SEAD on the size of Ukraine would push the limits.

    I personally think Russia should skip Brimstones and FireForget munitions and proceed with loitering munitions of all kinds and integrate them with helicopters. Then moving targets, BVR targets would be no problem at all.
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    Post  PapaDragon 03/07/22, 04:44 am

    Belisarius wrote:43rd separate rifle battalion of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from Zhytomyr.

    1. As a result of incompetent management, the personnel suffered significant losses
    2. They were thrown to the front line without artillery support and the necessary material support.
    3. The commanders did not consider the soldiers as people.
    4. The personnel of the unit is demoralized.
    5. Some were written off as "missing" in order not to pay salaries.
    6. After protests and refusal to take up positions, they were declared deserters.
    https://t.me/levigodman/3851

    And still they refuse to break rank

    Loyalty to Nazi cause is absolute and no amount of pussyfooting will ever change that

    Only solution is to exterminate them, everything else is failure





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