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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

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    11E


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    Post  11E Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:53 pm

    True, when we got lessons in Militair Recht (Military Law) they always had the test question about shooting at a pilot abandoning his aircraft and airborne forces.

    Airborne troops on parachute were fair game for all weapons in theory (the use of a multimillion missile with a 200 kg warhead is a little out of proportions). An aircraft was also fair game but when the pilot ejected is was not allowed to shoot at him and it is still considered a war crime for which you can be punished severely.

    Being a tanker in the past, my crew (and I) had the policy that if the balloon went up and the cold war turned hot, our job is to destruct the vehicle, being burnt alive or being killed when escaping a burning vehicle is horrible so when they escape the tank, let them go. In the hope the enemy did the same......

    Sincerely,
    Lesley


    Last edited by 11E on Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:53 pm

    Has anyone heard of Jackson Hinkle ? He's a pro Russia left winger type in the US. I am right wing but he seems like a refreshing left winger compared to the rest

    https://youtu.be/2JDk8x0pIdU


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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:53 pm

    calripson wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:...Russian Defense Ministry: Russian Armed Forces purposefully did not open fire on the retreating forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Svyatogorsk

    https://n.tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14836551

    Who the f*ck authorized this and when is he getting court martialed?

    Wars are lost because of shit like this

    Every single KIA on the Russian side in that region going forward is now on Russians and every single corpse that drops had it coming








    I´m proud of the russian servicemen not to open fire at defenceless enemies. This would be similar like shooting a wounded or drowning a sailor after his ship was sunk. Had they done it they would be at the same level as the Nazis they´re fighting.

    To be clear: If this guys grab weapons and return to some trench behind the river, they will be killed by artillery.

    Not how NATO, Israel, UK, or America fights wars and not how you win wars either.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death
    Does it show charity or a complete contempt for the value of your own soldiers lives? Those retreating soldiers are not surrendering; they are living to fight (and kill) another day.

    When did this countries win a war lately?
    And it was the decision of the foot soldier on the ground not to open fire or do you think they contacted Moscow first and waited?

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:58 pm

    Backman wrote:
    You're really pushing this narrative aren't you. That the Russian military is running on donations.
    This is the conclusion you made?
    No, i say that crowdfunding plugs holes faster than military bureaucracy would do. And that people stand with the army, which is very important.
    Surely, some deficiencies were noted and should be rectified asap.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:02 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Putin agreed to the Odessa corridor of Ukrainian grain ships.

    All we need now is for the Donbass to be liberated and then bask in the glorious political solution. Looking forward to the marvelous spin.

    Surprise commitments changes for full regime change and a Kiev takeover continue to diminish, unfortunately.

    I don't see Russia backing down on its objectives of demilitarization and denazification of the Ukraine. And those objectives are not limited to the Donbass, they apply to all Ukrainian territory

    Why would Russia back down when it has a winning game plan for the military side of things, and the Western attempts at crushing its economy have failed?
    It's now Russia's turn to take the counter-offensive to Kiev's backers, not provide them an off-ramp after they literally just attempted to destroy Russia and give it the Serbia treatment.

    If they want to provide a corridor to grain ships leaving Odessa - I don't see any problem with it, it can help depress grain prices on the world market. This is a humanitarian/economic cargo and I don't see any threat in letting it leave the Ukraine through Russian-blockaded waters. Putin BTW has just recently met with the chairman of the African Union. The bigger problem is probably the mines that the Ukraine itself deployed around Odessa.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:19 pm; edited 3 times in total

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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:05 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:The Special Operation is partially running on donations. An individual could give a break for foodstuff and textiles but also for military off-the-shelf equipment too? Fvck out here.

    Get mad if you want, throw a hissy fit in rage if you want, it's the reality. It looks bad because it's bad. Suck it up pussy. Instead of being upset at those bringing it to light and bringing visibility to it the fanboys should really be mad at the 50, 60, 70 year olds in charge of this operation and Russia's military planning and procurement process (just the start really, the buck stops, always, with the commander in chief - aka dear leader).

    Yeah, you make good points

    That's why most Russians were in rage the first weeks and months of SMO

    Look, we know well, and Russians know it

    That the leadership is not the best, in fact most Russians didn't think Putin shits Gold

    - what Russians tacitly agree on however,

    Is that there is no other alternative

    That's how fucked the country was and still is in many ways

    Who do you replace the current leadership with?

    Fucking navalny? We barely got the oligarchs out

    Grudinin and the KPRF clowns are at best the ones who fucking dissolved the Union and gave away the geopolitical and economic system of Russia , for FREE

    So no to KPRF

    The LDPR? I like them personally but still its fringe

    Liberasts? No fucking way

    And then you get to the truth of the matter, United Russia, and Putin

    Look if you think America has a boomer problem, Russia has an even bigger one

    The amount of old fucks who are naive soviet byproducts are the main voters of United Russia along with the Middle aged cohort

    The overwhelming majority are these old fucks that want their pensions, and way of life, and middle aged people that want stability

    So the social contract, is no extreme changes for the sake of having a normal day, and it's gone on for 20 + years and most of these middle aged people, are not gonna risk it , because there IS NO other option

    Russia is fucked in many ways, and hopefully it can change

    But we are stuck with what we have, and I won't change it for Grudinin or God forbid a color revolt led by liberasts

    From personal experience, your middle tier bureaucracy is your deep state. Those people wield a lot of power and have a staying power, regardless of government changes.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:11 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:The Special Operation is partially running on donations. An individual could give a break for foodstuff and textiles but also for military off-the-shelf equipment too? Fvck out here.

    Get mad if you always, with the commander in chief - aka dear leader).

    Yeah, you


    You chicken littles were crying about the same things in Syria. Russia was always doing it all wrong.

    We need a time capsule thread that we can visit 2 years from now. Any predictions?

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:17 pm

    Isos wrote:
    None was sold I think contrary to turkish Sabra variant which was bought in huge quantity.

    120/125mm has also some disadvantages. In many situation it isn't needed and its shells are bigger than smaller guns. Smaller shells are safer for the crew if they don't carry max load. Most vehicles on the battlfield can be dealt with even 90mm guns or even smaller. New FCS allow longer range for smaller guns.

    They should try a unmanned turret with only two crew for an upgraded t-62.

    Almost the entire North Korean tank fleet consists of heavily modified T-62 variants. The latest versions incorporate many T-72/T-90 features and some of the late models have thermals as well.

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:20 pm

    Ukrainian troops in their underwear rooning back to their lines after swamming the river leaving behind their heavy weapons are of no threat to the Russians. They do serve as a handy negative example for the Ukrainian defenders still unengaged of the futility of their efforts though, so most likely they will just be unceremoniously be mowed down by barrier troops like those fellows in the Azov pits did to their comrades that were slightly just ahead of the curve, since everyone would be surrendering anyways. Razz

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    Post  Ispan Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:44 pm

    Today's briefing, another small victory but a huge loss for those that lose their loved ones

    https://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/2022/06/06/parte-de-guerra-06-06-2022/


    I love Russia, but I don't understand why you don't go in a murdering rampage with those animals.

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    Post  Backman Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:53 pm


    Russian artillery firing at Ukraine from Russian territory will be a justified target for destruction by HIMARS missile systems, - US Ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor

    So it's being sent to hit Russia. Which is fine. The Russian security council will stick to its word and the regime will feel it in Kiev

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    Post  Backman Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:55 pm

    As for why Russia didn't kill some stragglers. Maybe killing them was the more compassionate thing to do.



    Last edited by Backman on Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:58 pm

    Backman wrote:
    Russian artillery firing at Ukraine from Russian territory will be a justified target for destruction by HIMARS missile systems, - US Ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor

    So it's being sent to hit Russia. Which is fine. The Russian security council will stick to its word and the regime will feel it in Kiev

    Wtf by that logic, E3 and global hawks cueing Ukrainian strikes on Russian troops are justified targets too

    So are their POS sats

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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:36 pm

    Mir wrote:
    diabetus wrote:

    In all fairness though, those M60s are more advanced than any T-62M.

    Not entirely true >>

    The smooth-bore 115mm gun on the T-62 is quite powerful compared to the 105mm and in the right circumstances proved quite deadly.

    In the Iran–Iraq War, Iraqi T-62s performed well against the Iranian tanks, including the M60A1s and Chieftains. In Operation Nasr, the biggest tank battle of the war, Iran lost 214 Chieftain and M60A1 tanks, while Iraq lost 45 T-62s. Approximately 200 T-62s were lost in the entire war. Chieftains were armed with a very powerful 120mm rifled gun.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-62#Service_history

    Many upgrades on the T-62's were offered for export - for example the Ukrainian T-62AG with a 125mm gun and much improved armour protection and FCS.


    Worth noting that Russian guns have higher chamber pressure than NATO guns. So bore diameter is not the only measure. The 152 mm Russian
    artillery is in no way inferior to the NATO 155 mm artillery.

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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:45 pm

    calripson wrote:The textbook case of air superiority was the First Gulf War. Hundreds of aircraft were used in a carefully orchestrated attack to suppress what was at the time a very large air defense network with multiple redundancies and hundreds of SAM launchers and hundreds of aircraft. Only one allied aircraft was lost to air -to-air combat (an F-18 shot down by a Mig 25). 51 fixed winged aircraft and 23 helicopters were lost primarily to AAA and manpads. The successful suppression dependent upon five key technological advantages:

    1. The use of stealth technology aircraft
    2. The superiority of the coalition in ECM/ECCM, radar, and avionics
    3. Superior technological situational awareness via space, air, and land-based means
    4. Secure communication channels and the ability to intercept and decrypt enemy communications
    5. Strikes with cruise missiles against high value targets

    In the current Ukrainian conflict, it is likely that Russia does not enjoy superiority in number 3 or 4 over NATO supported Ukraine and has limited ability in factor 1. Even using legacy Soviet systems, it is apparent that Ukraine is being aided in factor 2 also. Only in factor 5 does Russia actually surpass Western militaries. The end result is Russia does not have air dominance. The entire Western (and Israeli) model of war depends 100% on air dominance. Thus, it is not surprising given the resources devoted to this end that they have very advanced systems. The root origin of this dominance is superiority in microelectronics dating back decades. Stealth technology was of course invented (in terms of the mathematical algorithms) in the USSR - idiotically published in open-source documents - and developed and matured in the West.

    People love to talk about Stingers and other MANPADS. The only way that the US and NATO get their "air superiority" is to fly above the altitude range of these MANPADS.
    I recall this even being used as an excuse for the "collateral damage" in 1999 during NATzO's gang rape of Serbia.

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    Post  ATLASCUB Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:46 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Putin agreed to the Odessa corridor of Ukrainian grain ships.

    All we need now is for the Donbass to be liberated and then bask in the glorious political solution. Looking forward to the marvelous spin.

    Surprise commitments changes for full regime change and a Kiev takeover continue to diminish, unfortunately.

    I don't see Russia backing down on its objectives of demilitarization and denazification of the Ukraine. And those objectives are not limited to the Donbass, they apply to all Ukrainian territory

    Why would Russia back down when it has a winning game plan for the military side of things, and the Western attempts at crushing its economy have failed?
    It's now Russia's turn to take the counter-offensive to Kiev's backers, not provide them an off-ramp after they literally just attempted to destroy Russia and give it the Serbia treatment.

    If they want to provide a corridor to grain ships leaving Odessa - I don't see any problem with it, it can help depress grain prices on the world market. This is a humanitarian/economic cargo and I don't see any threat in letting it leave the Ukraine through Russian-blockaded waters. Putin BTW has just recently met with the chairman of the African Union. The bigger problem is probably the mines that the Ukraine itself deployed around Odessa.

    Kinda funny how you've come around to understanding why the scope can not be limited after arguing for so long to the contrary along the propaganda of the time.

    I hope that too but the political/diplomatic/military signals just don't point to it. It's what it's. We'll see for sure. I hope you're right. Tolerating that regime under any political solution is crazy!

    Nikolai Patrushev and Sergey Naryshkin got a lot to figure out amongst themselves. "100% denazification" vs. "we must negotiate". House divided can not stand bla bla bla...


    Last edited by ATLASCUB on Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:52 pm

    calripson wrote:The USSR lag in microelectronics dates back to the invention of the transistor and semiconductor. Putin didn't invent this issue, but he certainly didn't close the gap.

    People need to buy a clue. Russia has no lag in military IC design and production. That it does not produce "7 nm" consumer and HPC scalar processors has zero relevance
    for its military capability.

    The talk of Russia stripping refrigerators for CPUs is pap for retards.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:59 pm

    kvs wrote:
    calripson wrote:The USSR lag in microelectronics dates back to the invention of the transistor and semiconductor. Putin didn't invent this issue, but he certainly didn't close the gap.

    People need to buy a clue.   Russia has no lag in military IC design and production.   That it does not produce "7 nm" consumer and HPC scalar processors has zero relevance
    for its military capability.  

    The talk of Russia stripping refrigerators for CPUs is pap for retards.


    This guy was talking about how NATO was better at SEAD and used gulf War as an example

    Fighting S125 and stationary SAM systems

    Compared to Russia taking out S300 and buk/tor

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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:01 pm

    Isos wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:

    Shocked

    Since they don't have a 100% reliabity like any product, if you fire 100 of them you will get some fails. This one is clearly one.

    Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe it was those scrounged refrigerator CPUs that failed to deliver.

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    Post  Isos Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:02 pm

    kvs wrote:
    calripson wrote:The USSR lag in microelectronics dates back to the invention of the transistor and semiconductor. Putin didn't invent this issue, but he certainly didn't close the gap.

    People need to buy a clue.   Russia has no lag in military IC design and production.   That it does not produce "7 nm" consumer and HPC scalar processors has zero relevance
    for its military capability.  

    The talk of Russia stripping refrigerators for CPUs is pap for retards.



    A kh-55 was recovered after hitting a target in Ukraine. It had electronics from the 80s yet it was still very precise.

    Those races for nm is total bullshit since for most applications you just need something decent. Even for military ones. As shown even civilian 500$ drones are good enough.

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:03 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Putin agreed to the Odessa corridor of Ukrainian grain ships.

    All we need now is for the Donbass to be liberated and then bask in the glorious political solution. Looking forward to the marvelous spin.

    Surprise commitments changes for full regime change and a Kiev takeover continue to diminish, unfortunately.

    I don't see Russia backing down on its objectives of demilitarization and denazification of the Ukraine. And those objectives are not limited to the Donbass, they apply to all Ukrainian territory

    Why would Russia back down when it has a winning game plan for the military side of things, and the Western attempts at crushing its economy have failed?
    It's now Russia's turn to take the counter-offensive to Kiev's backers, not provide them an off-ramp after they literally just attempted to destroy Russia and give it the Serbia treatment.

    If they want to provide a corridor to grain ships leaving Odessa - I don't see any problem with it, it can help depress grain prices on the world market. This is a humanitarian/economic cargo and I don't see any threat in letting it leave the Ukraine through Russian-blockaded waters. Putin BTW has just recently met with the chairman of the African Union. The bigger problem is probably the mines that the Ukraine itself deployed around Odessa.

    Kinda funny how you've come around to understanding why the scope can not be limited after arguing for so long to the contrary along the propaganda of the time.

    I hope that too but the political/diplomatic/military signals just don't point to it. It's what it's. We'll see for sure. I hope you're right. Tolerating that regime under any political solution is crazy!

    Nikolai Patrushev and Sergey Naryshkin got a lot to figure out amongst themselves. "100% denazification" vs. "we must negotiate". House divided can not stand bla bla bla...

    Nope, you keep getting me confused for somebody else

    Once again, ever since the negotiations failed in Istanbul and the Bucha, Kramatorsk shit was pulled, I've been adamant about Russia completing its stated objectives in full, and over the entirety of Ukrainian territory.

    This is because the situation is such that there is no other option in any case. Kiev cannot be negotiated with, and the West will not stop fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian while there is still a place to send weapons and mercs to.

    And if I realize this then I can assure you, Mr. Patrushev and Mr. Naryshkin no doubt do as well.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  sundoesntrise Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:04 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:

    Kinda funny how you've come around to understanding why the scope can not be limited after arguing for so long to the contrary along the propaganda of the time.

    I hope that too but the political/diplomatic/military signals just don't point to it. It's what it's. We'll see for sure. I hope you're right. Tolerating that regime under any political solution is crazy!

    Ever since the pictures started coming out of Lenin being put back on his pedestal, and the hammer and sickle flapping in the wind, FP changed his stance like a leaf in the wind. Now he's the biggest supporter of the 'special military operation' on here, singing the praises in every tone of the sounding board - to the point where it's getting embarrassing.

    Goes to show what silly considerations people have for their 'expertise'. Yesterday it was black and today its white - but only because I saw something that I like.

    This is obviously not a good starting position for understanding things.


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    Post  ATLASCUB Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:05 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    Nope, you keep getting me confused for somebody else

    Once again, ever since the negotiations failed in Istanbul and the Bucha, Kramatorsk shit was pulled, I've been adamant about Russia completing its stated objectives in full, and over the entirety of Ukrainian territory.

    No I don't think I do. I said before the SMO. I remember very well the folks I argued with, the talking points they were using then, and the backflips and changes in tone now. Folks can evolve their opinions with experience (this SMO and all the fallout being it). Doesn't erase the past tho.
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:08 pm

    sundoesntrise wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:

    Kinda funny how you've come around to understanding why the scope can not be limited after arguing for so long to the contrary along the propaganda of the time.

    I hope that too but the political/diplomatic/military signals just don't point to it. It's what it's. We'll see for sure. I hope you're right. Tolerating that regime under any political solution is crazy!

    As soon as the pictures started coming out of Lenin being put back on his pedestal, and the hammer and sickle flapping in the wind FP changed his stance like a leaf in the wind. Now he's the biggest Putinista on here, singing the praises of the marvelous 'special operation' in every tone of the sounding board - to the point where it's getting embarrassing.

    Goes to show what silly considerations people have for they 'expertise'. Yesterday it was black and today its white - but only because I saw something that I like.

    This is obviously not a good starting position for understanding things.

    And you can just shut up; none of this ideological to and fro, putting Soviet flags on tanks (which was done from day 1) has any bearing on my appraisal of the situation, personally.
    kvs
    kvs


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 7 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

    Post  kvs Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:08 pm

    Hole wrote:https://thesaker.is/how-blaming-putin-is-helping-putin/
    The blame Putin for anything will backfire massively.

    The shame is the Minsk I and II agreements. These should never have been signed without proper territorial concessions from
    the losing Ukr side. Instead we had a freeze in place ceasefire converted into a higher level agreement, one that NATzO
    and its Kiev quislings never fulfilled.

    Now we have similar "chestnuts out of fire" rescue attempts being proposed by Italy on behalf of NATzO. Putin would have to be
    an actual retard to go along with this nonsense again. Before he had some legitimate excuses (e.g. Russia not having the economic
    condition to fight a sanctions war), now none of these excuses apply.

    Werewolf, Mir and Broski like this post


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