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    Post  Regular Fri May 27, 2022 3:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    The Tsarist Russian Army sung the praises of its victories over more backward foes than itself like the Ottomans and Safavids, but when it came up against Japan and later Germany, it showed what it was actually worth.

    Well, Tsarist Russian army did kick Swedes ass and they were the most advanced army back then, even more than the Prussians. Russians also destroyed Napaleons's Grande international army that was much larger than Russian. No one in Europe could have done that. Also, the Ottomans were not backward by any means...They always had better rifles than Russia. Tsarist Russia also kicked German ass during Brusilov's offensive...

    Rumyantsev, Suvorov, Kutuzov were simply geniuses and they lived in the same era!

    I am biased because I am into Russian history and I find Tsarist Russia's input to be a positive for the whole world. Russian Golden age is what even most Russophobic people can't disregard.

    The late Russian Empire ended up as all empires do. One can argue that reforms were bringing the change, but they were reactionary changes - too late, too little. Blue-blooded oligarchy needed to go, maybe not in a violent way, but they did no favors by clinging to power. The Soviet Union also had ups and downs and also has contributed to the humanity (less in culture, but insane contribution to science, society, and development), but it was a totally different and modern era. I find it silly when people compare 1:1 - a dying Tsarist Russia to the Industrial powerhouse built by Stalin.

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    Post  Vann7 Fri May 27, 2022 3:36 pm

    [quote="limb"]
    Vann7 wrote:

    Does the US have hundreds of thousands of precision loitering munitions that cant be jammed?




    No idea  , but NATO combined could do it , aside they have a lot of airforce too , that can overwhelm
    any  territory in the planet ,including kalingrad and crimea , in case of war . The idea that Russia
    can create a shield versus NATO with its air defenses designed mostly to target big planes ,s-400 and s-500 and all those short air defenses is non sense  . Even israel in syria with just 2-4 planes can overwhelm pantsirs defenses and destroy them.

    Russia needs short air defenses specifically made for targeting swarm of drones in the hundreds..
    so ideally that will be energy weapons of heavy power , or rail guns or anti air anti-drone artillery guided by computer radars.

    How many drones US have or not , is not important ,what their collective alliance ,
    what they can do ,is what Russia needs to be measured . The west have hundreds of thousands
    of civilians drones that could be used for a war too for spying, i have see in ukraine many toy drones flying above russian soldiers positions.  and so russia needs to develop more modern tactics ,to block nato efficiency with their drones close air support , so that it could give Russia  a chance to push back NATO in a conventional war. and that can be done by developing real time intel /awareness by the second of the battle field , of enemy movements and you can only do that by deploying enough drones , that fly floor 24 hours seven days a week. It doesn't have to be super expensive drones , but russia if it ever wants to have a chance to do well versus NATO in a much bigger war than what they face today in ukraine , then they will need to do a hell of a lot better than how russia military is doing now in ukraine.  Russia needs to be well prepared for very difficult wars , with very heavy use of drones in the Future.. NATO knows how effective have been ukraine in using drones ,to target russian covoys and in denying russia air space superiority , and forcing the russian airforce role to a very minimal one..   you never see russian airforce sending dozens of su-35s  combat planes deep into ukraine airspace ,for fear of they being shot down.  So all this weakness Russia is showing in their airforce in ukraine needs to be corrected now , before any major big war with the west happen.



    The Russians only need change one general and all of a sudden its the Ukrainians that are doing the dying and surrendering in droves.

    America in its 21 years in Afghanistan were never closer to victory from day one up to the last even with the yearly revolving door of clown generals.


    NATO was not in afghanistan to "win a war" , they were there for many other reasons , for heroine drugs business , and for money grabbing for the military.   How it works.. the US defense industry charge the US government 10x times more for each special security service or weapon for the conflict , and later those military generals and politicians get a commision $$ under the table , afghan war was a money laundering machine..  the target was public money , from american citizens ,used to make very rich and wealthy people behind this fake "wars". And as a bonus by being in afghanistan ,and with their control of their government ,they can block china and russia from creating economic trade routes. train routes , or oil and natural gas pipelines . Wink  

    So you guys , no offense , but if you think ,the west is stupid , is because you don't understand what they really doing. the west is incredibly smart , they are geniuses . the only dumb here Russia government ,specially Putin and his goverment..  the West policies are made for the creation of a world empire , while putin's policies is for "stability" of the russian state..  No

    When you have a leader like putin ,with no vision of the future , with no major ambitions ,other than russia as a gas station of the world and the capital of sports. Rolling Eyes  and that don't understand how the west manage to influence the world ,with its dominating future looking business , then all this things are possible. Russia is facing their decades of passivity and inaction. by not being ambitious in the development of russia in the modernization of russia economy, putin allowed the west to create the world most powerful alliance the world ever have seen in history. when you have mediocre people at the top ,without vision of the future, you can't expect anything more than a nation that "survives" and nothing else.

    The west is not stupid , they know very well what they want , and they know how to get there..
    notice how effectively they captured a a former soviet country ,Ukraine ,right on russian borders.. that was extremely important for Russia national security.. and nearly capture Belarus too ,and even tried to do it too , in kazakistan with the latest civil unrest.  and what was the counter of Russia?
    nothing.. russia is a passive nation ,that turns the other cheek with slapped in the face..  a new generations of politicians and military too , is necessary to fix all this weakness Russia face ,specially
    in nation True development , and achieve true independence from the outside world , so that the west can't no longer sanction russia or damage its economy . and neither allow the west so easily to influence nations away from russia business , for being seeing as an outdated business nation.

    The only problem the west have is GREED , that makes them arrogant and take major huge risk.
    but when it comes to building an empire ,they are already experts on this. Russia in the other side
    is expert in complaining how unfair is the west system. but don't do anything to compete .




    Last edited by Vann7 on Fri May 27, 2022 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Vann7 Fri May 27, 2022 4:24 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:Ukraine has now received M 270. This system will be used to target Russian infantry divisions.

    Pantsir should be able to neutralize the M 270's rockets in flight.


    They already have bm-27 and bm-30 as well as tochka. It didn't really helped them. US counterparts are not any better and they will have far less than soviet systems.

    Another propaganda win for ukraine but no change on the ground.


    M270 is not any better than Russian cruise missiles ,that have way superior range and superior precision. this is basically ballistic missiles with mediun range and medium satellite guidance precision.

    this however will indeed increase the casualties rate of russian army ,and could stop an advance in some place ,and to counter them ,will be next to impossible if you don't have an s-350 near .no idea if tors or pantsir can deal with that. but i don't think short range air defenses are ideal to intercept them. The good thing however ,is that will teach russia a lesson , of how inadequate are their air defenses in a fight versus nato. ballistic missiles are much more tricky to intercept , even for american forces , as we saw in iraq.. but an offensive army ,like nato is , don't need to worry much about intercepting missiles.. they have the entire west on their pockets ,their media ,and their financial system and banks , and they can strike with tactical nukes , at the countries attacking any NATO country with missiles. or launch hundreds of cruise missiles in retaliation at the country that attacked them or isolate that country from the world. Offense > defense . offense is the best kind of defense..  if you hit very hard your enemies ,something that russia never does , they can be dissuaded to continue fighting. I don't think russia will have the stomach to strike nato bases in retaliation for any himar attack on their forces. Reason why russia needs to create its own true alliance and fully arm it to counter any nato attack on any alliance soldiers. Russia don't have anything that could counter NATO ,or counter western financial system , because it lacks of leadership skills and Russia have been developed for 20 years , like a bananas commodities economy,
    and so have done very little to disband the western order by attracting most developed countries into the russian business orbit. Only nations that follows russia as their leader, are rejected ones by the developed world , like iran ,like venezuela , cuba. etc.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Fri May 27, 2022 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
    zorobabel
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    Post  zorobabel Fri May 27, 2022 5:18 pm

    Vann7 wrote:is a report 3 weeks old , but still interesting

    This is the only source in the entire internet that explained in details ,
    the real problems of the Russian army tactics , versus ukraine advance tactics
    trench warfare
    that require ultra precision strikes ,that russian army artillery don't have , and also ukraine
    heavy use of strike drones. He knows a lot of military tactics ,and not a stupid fanboy ,that makes excuses for the losses of russian military and show just the facts , of the problems facing both sides.
    and whenever ukraine or russia shows progress ,he report it.  as it should be.


    The lack of drones in the beginning of the conflict was strange. Russian units were shocked at how many experienced drone operators the DNR and LNR had, and how they had improvised with off-the-shelf options. Now, of course, many Russian units are being supplied with off-the-shelf drones for reconnaissance paid for out of people's pockets, but it is still unacceptable.

    The KLUB-BLA video from a couple of days ago shows it can be much more effective than a Switchblade, and it is supposedly cheap and simple to produce. Where is the Lancet in this conflict? Agreed, there is a need for recon drones, drone swarms, loitering munitions. A big need for cheap kamikaze drones that can hit trenches, something like an upsized KLUB with a 6kg warhead, to use in conjunction with regular artillery.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Fri May 27, 2022 5:23 pm

    zorobabel wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:is a report 3 weeks old , but still interesting

    This is the only source in the entire internet that explained in details ,
    the real problems of the Russian army tactics , versus ukraine advance tactics
    trench warfare
    that require ultra precision strikes ,that russian army artillery don't have , and also ukraine
    heavy use of strike drones. He knows a lot of military tactics ,and not a stupid fanboy ,that makes excuses for the losses of russian military and show just the facts , of the problems facing both sides.
    and whenever ukraine or russia shows progress ,he report it.  as it should be.


    The lack of drones in the beginning of the conflict was strange. Russian units were shocked at how many experienced drone operators the DNR and LNR had, and how they had improvised with off-the-shelf options. Now, of course, many Russian units are being supplied with off-the-shelf drones for reconnaissance paid for out of people's pockets, but it is still unacceptable.

    The KLUB-BLA video from a couple of days ago shows it can be much more effective than a Switchblade, and it is supposedly cheap and simple to produce. Where is the Lancet in this conflict? Agreed, there is a need for recon drones, drone swarms, loitering munitions. A big need for cheap kamikaze drones that can hit trenches, something like an upsized KLUB with a 6kg warhead, to use in conjunction with regular artillery.

    You assume too much.

    You do not have access to what Russia been using at all times. None of us do. We assumed they weren't using drones then we were getting image after image of Orlan-10 drones flying everywhere with either shot down or images of its assistance in artillery guidance. People assumed Russia was barely flying planes until images of jets flying or some being shot down appeared. Some assumes Russia took all these positions in Kharkov region and then fled the mighty Ukrainian army until it became known they never held many of these positions. We assumed Russia all of a sudden lost snake island until it became clear the Ukrainians lost a shit ton in a botched op.

    So I would refrain from assuming. It doesn't look good on you or me or any member here.

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    Post  zorobabel Fri May 27, 2022 5:51 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    zorobabel wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:is a report 3 weeks old , but still interesting

    This is the only source in the entire internet that explained in details ,
    the real problems of the Russian army tactics , versus ukraine advance tactics
    trench warfare
    that require ultra precision strikes ,that russian army artillery don't have , and also ukraine
    heavy use of strike drones. He knows a lot of military tactics ,and not a stupid fanboy ,that makes excuses for the losses of russian military and show just the facts , of the problems facing both sides.
    and whenever ukraine or russia shows progress ,he report it.  as it should be.


    The lack of drones in the beginning of the conflict was strange. Russian units were shocked at how many experienced drone operators the DNR and LNR had, and how they had improvised with off-the-shelf options. Now, of course, many Russian units are being supplied with off-the-shelf drones for reconnaissance paid for out of people's pockets, but it is still unacceptable.

    The KLUB-BLA video from a couple of days ago shows it can be much more effective than a Switchblade, and it is supposedly cheap and simple to produce. Where is the Lancet in this conflict? Agreed, there is a need for recon drones, drone swarms, loitering munitions. A big need for cheap kamikaze drones that can hit trenches, something like an upsized KLUB with a 6kg warhead, to use in conjunction with regular artillery.

    You assume too much.

    You do not have access to what Russia been using at all times. None of us do. We assumed they weren't using drones then we were getting image after image of Orlan-10 drones flying everywhere with either shot down or images of its assistance in artillery guidance.  People assumed Russia was barely flying planes until images of jets flying or some being shot down appeared.  Some assumes Russia took all these positions in Kharkov region and then fled the mighty Ukrainian army until it became known they never held many of these positions.  We assumed Russia all of a sudden lost snake island until it became clear the Ukrainians lost a shit ton in a botched op.

    So I would refrain from assuming. It doesn't look good on you or me or any member here.
    I'm not assuming anything. Russian soldiers were complaining on telegram about the lack of drones in the first two months. Kadyrov himself stated this.

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    Post  Backman Fri May 27, 2022 9:21 pm



    The backpack of the commander of one of the Ukrainian nationalist units, who was destroyed by the Special Forces group, while trying to escape from the positions. Kharkov direction.

    https://t.me/intelslava/30061

    That's what i don't get about being a soldier in a losing side of a war. Imagine carrying out all of these tedious bureaucratic tasks while your life expectancy is close to nothing anyway. Now he's dead and a Russian is looking through his paperwork that will get thrown in the trash. What a moron. **** the paperwork if you are in that situation.

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    Post  Ispan Fri May 27, 2022 10:35 pm

    Backman wrote:
    That's what i don't get about being a soldier in a losing side of a war. Imagine carrying out all of these tedious bureaucratic tasks while your life expectancy is close to nothing anyway. Now he's dead and a Russian is looking through his paperwork that will get thrown in the trash. What a moron. **** the paperwork if you are in that situation.

    As a government minion in the bowels of bureacracy I will paraphrase Benjamin Franklin,
    "there's nothing certain but death and paperwork"

    Even in a death and life situation, all forms must be properly filled, in triplicate. A war is no excuse.

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    Post  ucmvulcan Fri May 27, 2022 11:05 pm

    Ispan wrote:
    Backman wrote:
    That's what i don't get about being a soldier in a losing side of a war. Imagine carrying out all of these tedious bureaucratic tasks while your life expectancy is close to nothing anyway. Now he's dead and a Russian is looking through his paperwork that will get thrown in the trash. What a moron. **** the paperwork if you are in that situation.

    As a government minion in the bowels of bureacracy I will paraphrase Benjamin Franklin,
    "there's nothing certain but death and paperwork"

    Even in a death and life situation, all forms must be properly filled, in triplicate. A war is no excuse.

    David Glantz, in his hour long talk on Kursk, spoke of how a German staff officer anal retentively logged the movement of every last tank, tank destroyer, and other vehicle in his division as well as where approximately they made their farthest advance and whether they were destroyed or not. I haaate that Wehrmacht officer's cause and his army, but I appreciate his dedication to his job.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri May 27, 2022 11:19 pm

    limb wrote:
    Backman wrote:I'd like to criticize certain aspects of the war and have an adult conversation about it. But we cant have those discussions because we have children like Van around posting the most vacuous Kiev Independent propaganda that sucks all the air out of the threads.

    It would be nice if we could give it a try without Van.


    Well I am called a troll if I post colonelcassad, rybar,  or alleged complaints of russian soldiers. If you post western propaganda, youre called a nazi troll. If you post russians criticising russian military or government performance, youre called an ura patriot emo marxist troll.

    The whole West is united against Russia and the Russians, more than the Nazis once were against the Jews, so all that remains is to build concentration camps for the Russians living in the West.
    What the West and primarily the United States think about Russia, even before this conflict, is clear from American films (for decades) in which all Russians are bums, savages and alcoholics, while all Russian women are easy women.
    And why would you pass on links here with the Western "vision" of the conflict in Ukraine, when everything is already known in advance ?
    Remember that the children of the rich do NOT take part in wars. They are always against the war, no matter which country is in question.
    There are Russians who criticize the Russian military operation, but there are far fewer of them than those who are FOR the implementation of this operation. Against the operation are, for the most part, those who call themselves "Ukrainians", stinkers who live well and can't do without garbage such as McDonalds or Coca Cola, Hugo Boss suits, expensive cars.
    It is not the same to fight thousands of kilometers away from its territory, as US soldiers fought in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, in relation to Russian soldiers who fight on their "former" country and on their doorstep.

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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat May 28, 2022 12:38 am

    Hole wrote:


    Does somebody know how this radar is called?

    Found it, someone told me in twitter. It is "Lira-T" Air traffic control Radar. made by LEMZ

    https://lemz.ru/%d1%82%d1%80%d0%b0%d1%81%d1%81%d0%be%d0%b2%d1%8b%d0%b5-%d1%80%d0%b0%d0%b4%d0%b8%d0%be%d0%bb%d0%be%d0%ba%d0%b0%d1%86%d0%b8%d0%be%d0%bd%d0%bd%d1%8b%d0%b5-%d0%ba%d0%be%d0%bc%d0%bf%d0%bb%d0%b5%d0%ba%d1%81/

    The radar apparently discontinued due to appearance of more modern "Sopka-2" radar. But well guess there is still operational example.
    The rear antenna is therefore an SSR/IFF.

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    Post  Urluber Sat May 28, 2022 1:00 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    limb wrote:
    Backman wrote:I'd like to criticize certain aspects of the war and have an adult conversation about it. But we cant have those discussions because we have children like Van around posting the most vacuous Kiev Independent propaganda that sucks all the air out of the threads.

    It would be nice if we could give it a try without Van.


    Well I am called a troll if I post colonelcassad, rybar,  or alleged complaints of russian soldiers. If you post western propaganda, youre called a nazi troll. If you post russians criticising russian military or government performance, youre called an ura patriot emo marxist troll.

    The whole West is united against Russia and the Russians, more than the Nazis once were against the Jews, so all that remains is to build concentration camps for the Russians living in the West.
    What the West and primarily the United States think about Russia, even before this conflict, is clear from American films (for decades) in which all Russians are bums, savages and alcoholics, while all Russian women are easy women.
    And why would you pass on links here with the Western "vision" of the conflict in Ukraine, when everything is already known in advance ?
    Remember that the children of the rich do NOT take part in wars. They are always against the war, no matter which country is in question.
    There are Russians who criticize the Russian military operation, but there are far fewer of them than those who are FOR the implementation of this operation. Against the operation are, for the most part, those who call themselves "Ukrainians", stinkers who live well and can't do without garbage such as McDonalds or Coca Cola, Hugo Boss suits, expensive cars.
    It is not the same to fight thousands of kilometers away from its territory, as US soldiers fought in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, in relation to Russian soldiers who fight on their "former" country and on their doorstep.

    Definitely. We are living historic times.
    USA knows very well its hegemony is coming to an end. Their current propaganda would put Goebbels in shame. Personally I'm not ruling out possibility concentration camps. Which for it's AGAIN of utmost importance for Russia to emerge as uncontested victor. This is for humanity. For the world. There simply are no alternatives.

    Like it or not but Russia now is operating not only for Russia but for multiple other ethnicities and nations too (whom themselves are lacking such a powerful capabilities for self-defence) which have for reason or another ended on western hit-list.


    West declared total war on Russian world – Moscow
    Western nations “are doubling, tripling, and quadrupling their efforts to deter our nation. They use a wide array of tools, from unilateral economic sanctions to totally deceitful propaganda in the global media,” Lavrov said, noting that “low-level Russophobia, which to our deepest regret is promoted by a number of governments, has risen to unprecedented levels.”

    https://www.rt.com/russia/556181-west-total-war-russian-world/

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    Post  Vann7 Sat May 28, 2022 5:17 am

    Backman wrote:I'd like to criticize certain aspects of the war and have an adult conversation about it. But we cant have those discussions because we have children like Van around posting the most vacuous Kiev Independent propaganda that sucks all the air out of the threads.

    It would be nice if we could give it a try without Van.



    But without van , what you will have is a forum ,with people , fanboy tards.. only saying the things
    that are positive for Russia ,and in total denial of russian catastrophic mistakes that repeats again and again  and never stop.  I was attacked in the forums when i told , that russia was humiliated in the armenian conflict by turkey and azerbaijan.. that they did all they wanted with russia and armenia.
    That the whole russia mighty power there , was humiliated ,their mighting air defenses proved to be  inadequate versus a small country like azerbaijan armed with NATO and israeli drones ,that had their airspace infested with their drones , the azeris destroyed russia a couple of s-300s, tors , iskanders ,lots of stella modules.. it was a total disaster.  and when i told in the forum that russia  was ill prepared to fight wars versus heavy use of drones.. people attacked me..  censor me and the millions of excuses. "russia is not fighting there " nana nana, is armenia to blame , even a russian mi35 attack hellicopter full of russians , was shotdown inside armenia airspace ,and putin did nothing..   No


    Guess what? when the ukranian conflcit started , it was armenia 2.0 all over again , they did major advances , in a surprise blitkreg advance ,but they could not defend their soldiers properly with the russian airforce.  They were at mercy of endless attacks of drones.


    So the new excuses ,  ,was "shit happens" or "tell me about a war that soldiers don't die" "ukraine propaganda". You can't talk about the facts freely in this forum , because the fanboys don't want to listen anything negative of russian military. labeled with names , he have to "be gay" , or you are n idiot , etc,   this is a forum full of children , that can't handle facts and reality like mens , and very weak emotionally ,and don't like to receive all the facts.. but only those that are great to listen.

      it all changed but only for a week ,when mosca was sinked ,by "Accidental detonation of warship munition"  Rolling Eyes

    Then the general in charge of ukraine operation replaced for another ,a clear sign ,that the fanboys
    in this forums were all wrong , that things were not wonderful as they claimed , that not such "Tactical retreat" happened , russia was kicked the hell out of kiev and from the north of ukraine by force.. it was a disorganized retreat , and there are videos of this , and many soldies were left behind
    and they captured and tortured.. and videos published online.. in kharkiv again they forced to leave.
    Russian airforce ,contrary to what russia military claimed , did not had "air superiority" in ukraine .
    and it was actually ukraine the one dominating the skies in the soft kills by remote controlled drones targeting russian convoys.

    Ukraine airspace is heavily contested , with ukraine dominating in drones warfare. and russian dominating with cruise missiles . But even when the destructive power is on the russian side ,the efficiency ,to hit exactly in the right place and the best time , was on ukraine side.


    Russia more effective in targeting fortified fixed targets , that don't move..  while ukraine more effective in targeting soft and light armed targets ,that move constantly in the battle field but very imporotants..  Russia more effective in destroying fuel depots and weapons storage , ukraine more effective in destroying large convoys..  lol1

    so basically it was not a good war for russia to fight , one that russia don't dominate and is questionable to call their capture of territory a "victory" if they later forced to retreat without much of a fight. It remains to see now if the new general ,manage to kick all this mediocre soviet thinking generals ,and find a substitute for all of them ,  people that understand ,how important is to provide
    proper air support , air cover ,to all ground troops ,and not allow a single drone , not even for a minute to fly withing visual range of russian soldiers positions..

    this problems of rusia in ukraine ,in not completely dominating a much inferior army , are all related
    to the limited capabilities of russian airforce with drones , they don't have that many for the ukraine conflict  and the ones they have in big numbers ,like orlan-10 , is more like a toy ,in comparison to turkish baykatar 2 drones.  next to useless to target tanks or armor with those toy unguided fireworks bombs.

    so there is not much to discuss , russia weakness in ukraine..

    - russia don't have a well developed drone program , they have good drones ,but how they used
    not very good.
    - russia don't have enough drones ,for use in ukraine , and can't provide proper protection to the convoys .
    -russia intelligence of the ground is inferior to nato ,  even the optics of ukraine drones are superior than the russian ones.

    - russia electronic warfare is missing in action, what happened to all those wonder electronic warfare that russian had ,that could block drones from flying? No

    - russia airforce is the weakest link in the  entire russia military.. is very far for impressive , to not say close to mediocre ,the role of russian combat jets in the conflict.

    basically what russia is doing , that allows them to "win territory" is bombing with their superior artillery everything ,flatenning entire cities to the ground ,the mariupol way , scorch earth tactics and naturally ukranians had to flee the place , but will not like to know the collateral damage of how many civilians killed with this tactics.. should be horrible.

    So conclusion , yes russia is "winning" the war , but it remains to be see if they can hold territory ,
    when nato supply more and more drones and super long range artillery in big numbers and emulate russian scorch earth tactics too , using himars.. if russian soldiers will not be forced to flee too. perhaps that's the reason they building trenches too.

    What is clear for me , is that this russian army ,we were told , about , is not anywhere as powerful
    as the russian media and youtube trainning exercises made us believe. Russia will need to do a major transformation  to their airforce  and imitate what nato have been doing , of replacing their old planes for stealth ones.. and combine drones with every unit force in their military . russia needs to significantly improve ,their combined arms operation and combined communications , so that many different units ,from ground , air ,and armor ,can help each other ,to minimize their casualties to very  low numbers in the low hundred or better just few dozens and ,not in the many thousands casualties in just 4 months ,when dealing with a much inferior army like ukraine is..   because if russia think it can fight nato that way , they doing to ukraine , then they better not even tried.. an invasion of poland will be infinite times much worse than ukraine if for example nato airforce was bombing russian positions.  it then will be a massacre of russian soldies for sure , since russia can barely protect their soldiers from drones in ukraine , it will much worse , in a fight versus israel ,or turkey or poland. in hypotetical conflict with them.

    and a final warning.. for the fanboys.. that don't see any wrong , in russian army tactics in past
    months..

    it is that my perception is ,that the only reason ,why russian army have not been completely defeated and overrun in ukraine , is because of NATO fear ,that humiliating russia too much ,could
    provoke a nuclear conflict. So nato did not send all their best weapons from the very start , including artillery before russia invaded ukraine . If for example nato was supplying from day1,, all their best weapons and was trainning all ukraine army in the use of them , for years.. the history today will have been different. Even macron of france ,was warning at european union meeting ,to not humiliate russia too much.. for the risk of a major escalation and a nuclear conflict..
    so it seems to me ,that the only reason why the west is not fully arming with all they have to ukraine ,from day 1 ,is for fear of russia nuclear retaliation if ukraine start destroying russian cities with nato cruise missiles for example and rail guns.. which they can do..

    and you bet ,that if today russia had no nuclear weapons , nato airforces will have been hammering russian soldiers positions , with cruise missiles and with airforce with total impunity in the ground and russia forced to flee ukraine. In the future however , (hopefully) russia generals will learn something
    from ukraine conflict ,how much they suck with drones infested airspace by nato ,and force russian military ,to modernize their army and their tactics , for the 21 century and how future wars will be done. all this trench warfare only works , against russia , but will not work very well against a very strong nation with all kind of precision strike drones with tv camera guidance ,against smart missiles ,that target moving armor or soldiers in the ground without need of human operation , precision glide bombs with tv cameras , railguns and plenty of energy weapons and laser in their inventory. and with a battle tested very strong airforce armed with stealth planes.




    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat May 28, 2022 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat May 28, 2022 5:37 am

    and with Vann you have someone who spouts the dumbest of shit, "USE MANPADS to shoot down the TB2's Duuuur"

    Didn't even know the MANPADS cannot reach that height

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    Post  Backman Sat May 28, 2022 5:46 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Backman wrote:I'd like to criticize certain aspects of the war and have an adult conversation about it. But we cant have those discussions because we have children like Van around posting the most vacuous Kiev Independent propaganda that sucks all the air out of the threads.

    It would be nice if we could give it a try without Van.



    But without van , what you will have is a forum ,with people , fanboy tards.. only saying the things
    that are positive for Russia

    We cant even get to substantive criticisms of the war because we are debunking washing machines or whatever the latest and greatest waste of time story that you dredged up from F-16.net or The Sun newspaper.

    Then when someone wants to bring a criticism to the table , you just use it to pile on. There would be far more criticisms of Russia if we didn't have to defend it from cheapshot artists all the time


    Last edited by Backman on Sat May 28, 2022 5:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Vann7 Sat May 28, 2022 5:46 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:and with Vann you have someone who spouts the dumbest of shit, "USE MANPADS to shoot down the TB2's Duuuur"

    Didn't even know the MANPADS cannot reach that height

    majority of ukraine drones are not TB2 but only recon one guiding ukraine artillery. doh.. that fly
    very low , just 1km altitude or bit more. Also TB2 pilots not always fly high altitude ,where they are vulnerable to s-300s ,tors and buks defenses.. a good pilot of tb2 ,will know when to fly low to evade major air defenses , by flying low.. this is what russian attack hellicopters are doing , to evade ukraine buks and s-300s.

    and if russia provided manpads to their soldiers , protecting cities ,those mi8 hellicopters will have never attacked russian cities , neither those low flying baykatars.. yes ,they need to fly low too ,under the radar ,to evade major air defenses  in russia.   The fact that ukraine was able to bomb deep inside  russian territory ,their cities fuel depots with slow ,low flying mi8 hellicopters , strike in russia and then retreat totally unharmed ,proof how amazingly incompetent can be the russian military tactics that did not forsaw anything like this before. because even soldiers deployed outside cities ,with manpads ,while the war last,  could have been more than enough  to secure russia  airspace from low flying aircraft or drones . doh.

    Russia have good weapons , but is the mediocre tactics of russia military in modern wars ,and the small inventories of their good weapons, what kills russian effectiveness in the battlefield.

    Is Russia is winning in ukraine? for sure  ,when it comes to  advancing and capturing territory , but it remains to be seen if russia will have a way to  hold territory , in case nato start supplying  more and more lethal aid to ukraine ,more drones and long range artillery , and smart british  missiles to  target russian positions and force them to retreat. because it happened already before.
    ill give 60% to  40%  probability to russia to hold territory , because nato seems very timid in their aid to ukraine. But had nato supplied everything conventional weapon they have to ukraine ,since day 1 , with full training done earlier , the story will have been totally different ,and russia pushed back , and kicked from ukraine in just 1 month of  combat ,specially by nato airforces superiority.
    so this will have to be the lesson to learn , russia is not prepared for a big conventional war with nato.. not even close.  And they will need  to significantly modernize their airforce ,both combat jets and drones use in the battlefield , to combine all forces into one . and boost production significantly of their stealth planes.. that russia desperately need in ukraine to achieve airsuperiority for once.
    and also russia will need to migrate all their air defenses or at least the short range ones into energy and laser based.. better russia do it first ,because  this is the direction nato is moving.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat May 28, 2022 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Vann7 Sat May 28, 2022 4:01 pm

    Putin's import substitution laws ,specially for military ,to avoid using american technolgy ,
    in their industry ,and promote Russian military independence, how is going  in real practice?

    lets see. No




    This is why Russia face so much problems in influencing any nation in the world away of the
    anglo american orbit and its puppets allies in the west and in asia. Because Russia in 22 years
    of putin in power have done nothing ,to end their dependence on western advanced technology.
    so how can any nation take Russia calls for divorcing from the west ,when Russia itself is so
    dependent from the US high tech ? and or high tech in europe and asia ,that also use american
    technology ?

    If Putin wants respect , to its nation , the very first thing he needs to do is modernize the nation economy ,and stop focusing so much in potato and wheat exports and seek to invest and develop
    for REAL its nation high tech electronic industry.. to build leadership in the world in high tech..
    that's how you promote a new more and fair system. with business leadership , in high tech advance nano tech , that every nation need ,but only a handful set of nations can compete.

    Having to buy american microchips ,to modernize their military hardware ,should be seen as treason,
    and very poor leadership from the Russian president..that demoralize the nation, this send a message to all its population that russia federation can't compete or modernize its military hardware without foreign help. Putin's needs to stop promoting bullshit sports ,and agriculture records and instead promote its citizens ,young generations to study science , maths and engineering . this is how you make Russia great again , with promoting high degree education on all its society , not just with words ,but with major economic incentives ,for those that graduate from universities with major science and engineering degrees. Putin is the only one to blame ,for this russia military dependence on the west. Not taking seriously its high tech industry. What was putin thinking? he is the only one responsible for this mediocre Russian world vision , of the development of its nation , one that its own military depends to buy american and its puppet colonies in asia , chips in the black market. No



    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat May 28, 2022 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sat May 28, 2022 4:24 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    Putin's import substitution laws ,specially for military ,to avoid using american technolgy ,
    in their industry ,and promote Russian military independence, how is going  in real practice?

    lets see.




    How many Chinese microchips in American and NATO weapons? Also, considering import substitution laws are fairly new its going to take some time to get domestic production up and running. The video has no point.

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    Post  lancelot Sat May 28, 2022 4:26 pm

    I already said as much. Any military grade chips used in Russian weapons systems are designed and made in Russia. Sanctions on Russia since 2014 annexation of Crimea already prevented such imports. As for the non-military grade support chips that are used in Russian weapons systems they are so common that they would be trivial to smuggle. Let us say you need to manufacture a couple hundred helicopters and you need a couple thousand such chips. Sales of such consumer grade chips total in the millions and tens of millions. Getting a couple thousand is insignificant. Spread the purchase over a half a dozen or a dozen orders and good luck spotting it. In addition China used to be the dumping grounds for the world's e-waste and they have a huge cottage industry which removes, tests, and sometimes even relabels used chips in case the same chip has multiple packaging labels and you need a different label which is the same chip in practice. You might be able to get these chips for $1 to $5 USD each or maybe even pennies. Compared with the cost to design and manufacture the chips yourself there is little to discuss here. Hundreds of millions or billions to build a fab and tens or hundreds of millions to design a simple chip. Even US private companies order their chips from Chinese vendors for this purpose. Today China stopped accepting most of the cheapest low level e-waste. But guess who is taking it in? Vietnam.

    So good luck preventing such chips to reaching the Russian MIC.

    I think the Russians even use these consumer US chips on purpose, when they could be using say Chinese ones, just to pull the US's leg.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat May 28, 2022 4:32 pm

    Vann7, even the famous M65 field jacket from Alpha Industries these days is produced exclusively in China.

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    Post  Vann7 Sat May 28, 2022 4:39 pm

    ucmvulcan wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:

    Putin's import substitution laws ,specially for military ,to avoid using american technolgy ,
    in their industry ,and promote Russian military independence, how is going  in real practice?

    lets see.




    How many Chinese microchips in American and NATO weapons? Also, considering import substitution laws are fairly new its going to take some time to get domestic production up and running.  The video has no point.

    yes american military use chinese chips , but ONLY when they can build them too ,US only use chinese chips only for reducing economic cost or their programs ,is just a price saving thing ,and nothing else ,  this is very different to what russia is doing  that is using their declared enemies technology , using american or taiwanese or japan microchips , because russia don't have any other way ,  is not for economic cost reduction they do it , but for not having such technology in their own army .


    ,  they will not make any plane or warship ,if they can't build it with their own high tech industry or puppet allies.


    its going to take some time

    indeed , if by "some time" you mean 50 years , because apparently for Putin 22 years is not enough
    for developing its own nation high tech industry.  He is the only one to blame ,i stand by this 100%.
    he is the one that decide where the budget of russia will go , how much goes here or there .
    he assigned up to 100 billion dollars , to the sports minister for sochi and fifa 2018 alone.. so much waste of money , in totally absurds diversions ,that russia don't need at all , and now totally useless
    , with the sanctions , they will have to fill those olympics avenues with azov nazis.. and compete against them. lol1   This is why russia is the way it is , when you have bad leadership ,with very poor vision of the future , you get a nation that is totally dependent on their very own adversaries for its own security and nation development..  what was putin thinking?  he is the biggest problem in russia ,for its true nation independence and development.

    saving russia economy in the first 8 years in power ,as putin did , means nothing if in the end he allows the nation to sink again and become totally dependent on china for its military development.
    what if china switch sides the next month , replaced its president by a pro western one?
    Russia can't continue being so dependent on foreign tech , Putin must likely will have to go ,
    before Russia see , a true nation development and economy modernization.

    they also found Russian orlan-10 drones using japanese cameras.. , i bet he will replace them with chinese ones .with  he new sanctions. otherwise he will have no way to build any advanced drones ,with their own soviet era outdated nation industry.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat May 28, 2022 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  caveat emptor Sat May 28, 2022 5:25 pm

    flamming_python wrote:They had some kind of production facility for Tochka rockets I think, there was news that a production site for warheads was taken out only just recently

    But if you look over the MoD statements you'll notice that over the last 30 days there's been barely any mention of Tochka-U attacks; by and large the Ukrainians have switched to using Smerch MLRS strikes

    I'm guessing they still do have some launchers and missiles hidden in the Donbass and other regions, but they're definately conserving the rest of what they have left by now.
    FP have you seen video of the speech of Andrei Ilnitsky? As you said MoD have some real dinosaurs employed in information and propaganda sector. He is completely out of his depth and not too smart, as well. Probably friend of a friend or something along those lines was his main qualification for position.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat May 28, 2022 5:25 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:Putin's import substitution laws ,specially for military ,to avoid using american technolgy ,
    in their indust.......

    C'mon Vann, tell me more about sPacE dOmiNAnCe!!!!



    it was form the Kiev Independent so is independent from facts.

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sat May 28, 2022 5:44 pm

    Vann7 wrote:[
    he assigned up to 100 billion dollars , to the sports minister for sochi and fifa 2018 alone.. so much waste of money , in totally absurds diversions ,that russia don't need at all , and now totally useless

    Most of this money was spent on infrastructure. Mind you, they revamped an entire region for Sochi, and those new roads, railroads, stations, tunnels, bridges etc are far from "totally useless" to the ever increasing number of people living in one of the fastest growing Russian regions.

    Not even all the sports facilities are useless, Russia has its own national leagues and everything. People need entertainment too...

    The most useless part of it all was that it was mostly intended to break through the propaganda and show that Russia isn't Mordor or whatever. That was very naive of Putin and the Russian government.






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    Post  caveat emptor Sat May 28, 2022 6:00 pm

    Dr.Snufflebug wrote:
    Most of this money was spent on infrastructure. Mind you, they revamped an entire region for Sochi, and those new roads, railroads, stations, tunnels, bridges etc are far from "totally useless" to the ever increasing number of people living in one of the fastest growing Russian regions.

    Not even all the sports facilities are useless, Russia has its own national leagues and everything. People need entertainment too...

    The most useless part of it all was that it was mostly intended to break through the propaganda and show that Russia isn't Mordor or whatever. That was very naive of Putin and the Russian government.
    World Cup was good for image of Russia and money was better spent and controlled. Winter Olympic Games were not the case. Some infrastructure was indeed done for the Games, but price tag was too high. Plus, FIFA world cup along with summer Olympic games are premier sport events.


    Last edited by caveat emptor on Sat May 28, 2022 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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