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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:42 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:No comment expected from Kiev!

    Wonder what had the range to take it down now the S-300F is no more. Perhaps they thought they were safe, like the RuN.

    Bets on Il-76 or AN-124?

    [i]Update(1632ET): In what appears Moscow's "answer" to the US and NATO countries continuing to supply major weapons systems to Ukrainian forces, state agency TASS is claiming that Russian forces have brought down a Ukrainian military transport plane that was transporting Western arms. It would mark a massive battlefield development if confirmed, potentially escalating conflict more directly with the West, now that Russia is actively targeting Western arms shipments.....

    They were allowing transport planes to fly uninterrupted all this time? Suspect



    Why not resume regular airline service so they can move the troops around. cheers

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:46 am

    par far wrote:Another thing is, the western media is going crazy about the Kherson Region.

    There might be a referendum in the Kherson Region.



    Me thinks Kherson referendum will be the first not the last on freed territory of former Ukro Reich. Kherson, Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkov, Odessa...and so on so on. and each region can be a "federal gubernia" ruled by local pro-Russian World politicians. So denazification will go with disintegration centralized ukro reich

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:47 am

    mnztr wrote:

    Why not resume regular airline service so they can move the troops around. cheers

    it can be even worse, they can use civilian aircrafts to carry weapons so Russians wont shut them :/.
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    Post  par far Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:49 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    par far wrote:Another thing is, the western media is going crazy about the Kherson Region.

    There might be a referendum in the Kherson Region.



    Me thinks Kherson referendum will be the first not the last on freed territory of  former Ukro Reich.  Kherson, Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkov, Odessa...and so on so on. and each region can be a "federal gubernia"  ruled by local pro-Russian World politicians. So denazification will go with disintegration centralized ukro  reich  


    This is what I also think, I think that people that want to go to the west will be sent to west Ukraine and then to Poland and off to the west to live the rest of their days in woke ideology.


    Last edited by par far on Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  par far Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:49 am

    "What is the plan for the morning in Mariupol at the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation:

    from 5:00 a.m., continuous communication is established between the Russian and Ukrainian sides for the exchange of information;

    from 5.30 militants of nationalist battalions and foreign mercenaries - on the one hand, the Russian Armed Forces, together with the military formations of the DPR - on the other hand, declare a "complete silence regime";

    at 6.00, both sides actually start the "silence regime" by raising flags: from the Russian side - red, from the Ukrainian side - white around the entire perimeter of "Azovstal";

    from 6.00 to 13.00 Moscow time - the exit of all without exception Ukrainian armed units and foreign mercenaries, without any weapons and ammunition."



    https://t.me/voenacher/15506

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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:56 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:More on the sailors. The comments in the thread basically tear it apart. Probably from December or February.

    https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1515428576593592324

    H I Sutton
    @CovertShores
    ***NEW ANALYSIS*** (Updated) - > http://hisutton.com/Moskva-Cruiser-Loss-Estimate.html


    Unpicking the reported parade of #Russian cruiser #Moskva's crew. Sobering watching


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 22 FQfhCh-WYAIEswz?format=jpg&name=small


    A little better than my estimate. We can hope for another 50 or so injured, psychologically jarred or otherwise recovering.

    These guys on the parade all have their discipline and spirits high. But it won't be like that for everyone.

    True patriots go to the army, as well as people who do NOT go to the army because they think of Putin (like you), but go to serve in the army with the most famous military history in the last 300 years. Well, that's the difference between them and you.
    Most of the tankers who survived the destruction of their tank will want revenge.
    The same goes for pilots, sailors, etc. These are people who decided to do military service and your opinions would be funny to them.


    If i remember correctly, but i might be wrong, FP was in the army. Again, criticizing head of state or government, because they think they are doing something  wrong, doesn't make them traitors. I don't even understand what your problem with FP is.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:01 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:More on the sailors. The comments in the thread basically tear it apart. Probably from December or February.

    https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1515428576593592324

    H I Sutton
    @CovertShores
    ***NEW ANALYSIS*** (Updated) - > http://hisutton.com/Moskva-Cruiser-Loss-Estimate.html


    Unpicking the reported parade of #Russian cruiser #Moskva's crew. Sobering watching


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 22 FQfhCh-WYAIEswz?format=jpg&name=small


    A little better than my estimate. We can hope for another 50 or so injured, psychologically jarred or otherwise recovering.

    These guys on the parade all have their discipline and spirits high. But it won't be like that for everyone.

    True patriots go to the army, as well as people who do NOT go to the army because they think of Putin (like you), but go to serve in the army with the most famous military history in the last 300 years. Well, that's the difference between them and you.
    Most of the tankers who survived the destruction of their tank will want revenge.
    The same goes for pilots, sailors, etc. These are people who decided to do military service and your opinions would be funny to them.


    If i remember correctly, but i might be wrong, FP was in the army. Again, criticizing head of state or government, because they think they are doing something  wrong, doesn't make them traitors. I don't even understand what your problem with FP is.

    Did I ask you to be a mediator? I think I am not. The FP once wrote that "Putin is a damn murderer" and had other similar statements. Therefore, yes, I don't like the "tone" he often writes. In the last message, he indirectly wrote that "he thought that more people were killed on cruiser Moscow", so I know why I am writing to him as I am writing to him. What kind of statement is that? You see, I feel a dose of insidiousness there.
    I am not defending Putin, I am defending what made Putin go to war. Therefore, I support the Russian state.

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    Post  Azi Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:04 am

    flamming_python wrote:BTW there was this video from mid-March claiming a downed Mi-28N



    What is it? I have my doubts it's actually a Mi-28N
    Tail number says...Ka-52.

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    Post  Regular Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:10 am

    caveat emptor wrote:


    If i remember correctly, but i might be wrong, FP was in the army. Again, criticizing head of state or government, because they think they are doing something  wrong, doesn't make them traitors. I don't even understand what your problem with FP is.

    AFAIK, FP was in Navy/Marines, if I am not wrong.

    I find it stupid to blame Russians when they criticize gov and the current state of affairs. Russians ALWAYS criticized GOV, I am not talking about self-hating 5th columnists, but normal people who do that too. How do you think anecdotes are born? As long as I remember, even during late Soviet times gov, the police, and the army was punching bags. No fellow Russian will call you a traitor for this, you need to actually do traitorous sht to be called one, lol Russia is not some dystopian country. But God forbid some outsider will start criticizing Russia in front of the Russian.

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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:21 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    caveat emptor wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:More on the sailors. The comments in the thread basically tear it apart. Probably from December or February.

    https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1515428576593592324

    H I Sutton
    @CovertShores
    ***NEW ANALYSIS*** (Updated) - > http://hisutton.com/Moskva-Cruiser-Loss-Estimate.html


    Unpicking the reported parade of #Russian cruiser #Moskva's crew. Sobering watching


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 22 FQfhCh-WYAIEswz?format=jpg&name=small


    A little better than my estimate. We can hope for another 50 or so injured, psychologically jarred or otherwise recovering.

    These guys on the parade all have their discipline and spirits high. But it won't be like that for everyone.

    True patriots go to the army, as well as people who do NOT go to the army because they think of Putin (like you), but go to serve in the army with the most famous military history in the last 300 years. Well, that's the difference between them and you.
    Most of the tankers who survived the destruction of their tank will want revenge.
    The same goes for pilots, sailors, etc. These are people who decided to do military service and your opinions would be funny to them.


    If i remember correctly, but i might be wrong, FP was in the army. Again, criticizing head of state or government, because they think they are doing something  wrong, doesn't make them traitors. I don't even understand what your problem with FP is.

    Did I ask you to be a mediator? I think I am not. The FP once wrote that "Putin is a damn murderer" and had other similar statements. Therefore, yes, I don't like the "tone" he often writes. In the last message, he indirectly wrote that "he thought that more people were killed on cruiser Moscow", so I know why I am writing to him as I am writing to him. What kind of statement is that? You see, I feel a dose of insidiousness there.
    I am not defending Putin, I am defending what made Putin go to war. Therefore, I support the Russian state.
    This is a public forum, and anyone is free to chime in. 
    Things are not black or white in life. I understand why Russia went to war, but i also expressed my opinion that this should have been done before and with much lower casualty numbers. Ukraine was handled wrongly and every time US was one making a first move. 
    As for Putin, even though i respect what he did in first decade of his power, second one was not so great. I think it is time to move one and i hope that will happen after the war. Bit, that's another subject.
    As for FP, he lives in Russia and understands dynamics of Ru-Ukr relationship much better and also Russian internal politics. 
    I hate making saints from politicians. That always backfires in the long run.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:22 am

    flamming_python wrote:BTW there was this video from mid-March claiming a downed Mi-28N



    What is it? I have my doubts it's actually a Mi-28N

    "Russia’s poorly designed “Apache”wanna be..."

    Why post enemy propaganda posts? Just the smell of NATOista screed should be enough to make you pass over this garbage.

    Don't pollute the forum with enemy BS. Russia will take losses, it is inevitable, but why the fck do you choose to stink up the forum with this stuff? You say that you're not a 6th column emo-commie? Maybe you need to act in a way consistent with your denials...

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    Post  limb Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:22 am

    Can anyone explain why the Ukrainian troops around Odessa still haven't been bombed by the Russian air force? Why do theystill have lots of combat capable vehicles?

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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:25 am

    limb wrote:Can anyone explain why the Ukrainian troops around Odessa still haven't been bombed by the Russian air force? Why do theystill have lots of combat capable vehicles?
    Unless they can hit concentrations of vehicles, i don't expect them to waste Kalibrs on individual ones. It is far from the fronts and aviation has to come from Crimea. It would be pretty exposed to AA systems.

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    Post  limb Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:30 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    limb wrote:Can anyone explain why the Ukrainian troops around Odessa still haven't been bombed by the Russian air force? Why do theystill have lots of combat capable vehicles?
    Unless they can hit concentrations of vehicles, i don't expect them to waste Kalibrs on individual ones. It is far from the fronts and aviation has to come from Crimea. It would be pretty exposed to AA systems.

    I thought 90%+ of Ukrainian SAMs have been destroyed. They could use KABs, kh-25s, S-25Ls, Kh-38s, etc.
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    Post  kvs Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:34 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:BTW there was this video from mid-March claiming a downed Mi-28N

    https://twitter.com/AustinDavidRoss/status/1503772200138063876

    What is it? I have my doubts it's actually a Mi-28N

    "Russia’s poorly designed “Apache”wanna be..."  

    Why post enemy propaganda posts?  Just the smell of NATOista screed should be enough to make you pass over this garbage.

    Don't pollute the forum with enemy BS.  Russia will take losses, it is inevitable, but why the fck do you choose to stink up the forum with this stuff?  You say that you're not a 6th column emo-commie?  Maybe you need to act in a way consistent with your denials...  

    Indeed. The Mi-28 puts the Apache to shame. Better armour, better weapons, better everything else.
    Americans and their fellow travelers are high on the crack of innate superiority. It is just as absurd as
    claiming some 1880s horse and buggy from the US is superior to any car ever made in Russia.

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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:37 am

    limb wrote:
    caveat emptor wrote:
    limb wrote:Can anyone explain why the Ukrainian troops around Odessa still haven't been bombed by the Russian air force? Why do theystill have lots of combat capable vehicles?
    Unless they can hit concentrations of vehicles, i don't expect them to waste Kalibrs on individual ones. It is far from the fronts and aviation has to come from Crimea. It would be pretty exposed to AA systems.

    I thought 90%+ of Ukrainian SAMs have been destroyed.  They could use KABs, kh-25s, S-25Ls, Kh-38s, etc.
    Most were destroyed, but i think to hit around Odessa it would have to be groupings ov vehicles rather than individual ones. It is too far into enemy territory. They mostly hit barracks and energy and ammunition infrastructure in that region.

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:46 am

    Looks like that Ka-52 that was forced to land around Gostomel was blown up before the Russians withdrew after all, assuming the photo is of that one

    https://t.me/voenacher/15453

    The photo the Ukrainian troops made with the Ka-52 must have been from the first couple of days after the crew was extracted, but before that area was secured.

    Apparently another Ka-52 was downed very recently on the Izyum-Slavyansk direction

    Map of hostilities and the situation on the fronts on the evening of April 16

    Quite a calm and successful day on all fronts. Particularly funny against this background is the statement of the President of Ukraine with clearly underestimated losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in 3,000 dead and 700 prisoners, when only Azovstal remained with a maximum of 2,500 soldiers out of 15,000-20,000 soldiers in Mariupol alone (by the way, today their losses amounted to 4,000 people), and in recent days 1464 soldiers of the Armed Forces have surrendered. However, this is not the first lie of President Ze/

    Let's go over the main points:

    Kharkov. It flies less often into the city itself, the main blows fall on the suburbs, but it flies methodically and often around the district, there are battles every day. There are large-scale clashes in Rogan, the Ukrainian side announced the occupation of the village, the Russian side is still silent - the fighting continues.

    Izyum-Slavyansk. The border between Kharkiv region and the DPR is currently the hottest point of the common front. Very serious and fierce battles, artillery works from two sides, tank, sabotage battles, aviation, (several aircraft are shot down a day). Comrades on the ground share their observations that the pressure and scale of fighting is growing in this direction. Russian troops manage to advance towards Slavyansk, the enemy resists and suffers losses. We also have losses. The Russian military lost a K-52 helicopter, the enemy has more losses - several “dryers”. They report heavy losses among the 93rd brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, many prisoners and 200s. We have added paratroopers in this direction.

    A little to the east of this direction is the last front of the LPR, an agglomeration of many settlements that are very close to each other. The main cities are Severodonetsk, Lisichansk, Rubizhnoye, Kremennaya, and the key city to them is Popasnaya. The Armed Forces of Ukraine here very thoroughly dug in and strengthened themselves for 8 years, organized excellent artillery positions on a hill. They talk about concrete shelters connected by kilometer-long tunnels. The Russian military has taken Rubizhne, but the cleansing is still going on there. In Severodonetsk on the outskirts of the fighting. At the Kremennaya battle. There are great successes in Popasnaya - yesterday the flag was hung on the City Council. Moving on. Russian tanks entered the city, helping with firepower. It must be assumed that the enemy is hurt. Arta also works tirelessly here, regular arrivals.

    From Gorlovka to Gulyai-Polye, there are no changes, positional battles do not stop, there are active breakthroughs in several areas, in Marinka and in the Ugledar region.

    Mariupol is almost ours. The last shortcomings of "Azov" and the Armed Forces of Ukraine settled in the industrial metropolis "Azovstal", they are very actively and loudly "ironed" by our VKS, there are rumors that even the FAB-3000 was thrown off. In other parts of the city, mopping-up operations are underway from isolated attempts to break out of the encirclement. Captivity continues.

    No changes on the southern front, periodic skirmishes on the border of the Nikolaev and Kherson regions. Yesterday it was reported that there was a small exchange of prisoners, 5 Ukrainians were exchanged for 4 Russians. Arrivals in Nikolaev and Odessa region continue. Both sides have increased their forces here, perhaps more serious battles will begin.

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:47 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:BTW there was this video from mid-March claiming a downed Mi-28N



    What is it? I have my doubts it's actually a Mi-28N

    "Russia’s poorly designed “Apache”wanna be..."  

    Why post enemy propaganda posts?  Just the smell of NATOista screed should be enough to make you pass over this garbage.

    Don't pollute the forum with enemy BS.  Russia will take losses, it is inevitable, but why the fck do you choose to stink up the forum with this stuff?  You say that you're not a 6th column emo-commie?  Maybe you need to act in a way consistent with your denials...  

    Pay no heed to the propaganda dribble, that's not the point. What is it that was downed? This is a military equipment forum first and foremost
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:52 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:More on the sailors. The comments in the thread basically tear it apart. Probably from December or February.

    https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1515428576593592324

    H I Sutton
    @CovertShores
    ***NEW ANALYSIS*** (Updated) - > http://hisutton.com/Moskva-Cruiser-Loss-Estimate.html


    Unpicking the reported parade of #Russian cruiser #Moskva's crew. Sobering watching


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #12 - Page 22 FQfhCh-WYAIEswz?format=jpg&name=small


    A little better than my estimate. We can hope for another 50 or so injured, psychologically jarred or otherwise recovering.

    These guys on the parade all have their discipline and spirits high. But it won't be like that for everyone.

    True patriots go to the army, as well as people who do NOT go to the army because they think of Putin (like you), but go to serve in the army with the most famous military history in the last 300 years. Well, that's the difference between them and you.
    Most of the tankers who survived the destruction of their tank will want revenge.
    The same goes for pilots, sailors, etc. These are people who decided to do military service and your opinions would be funny to them.


    If i remember correctly, but i might be wrong, FP was in the army. Again, criticizing head of state or government, because they think they are doing something  wrong, doesn't make them traitors. I don't even understand what your problem with FP is.

    I was in the Navy in fact, and on ships like the Moskva, a lot of conscripts serve.

    Sure many of them will want revenge. Nevertheless some will be unstable from 2 missiles cratering the vessel and taking out your friends. Just how it is. Can happen to professional soldiers too.

    The assembled are a little solemn, but composed and still have their spirits. This sends the right message but maybe after such an incident, not everybody can control their emotions.

    All I can say is that I hope I'm correct with this preposition. As it means that more survived. That's why I voiced all this in the first place.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:55 am

    Russian MoD should come out and explain what really happened. I can tell that many Russians are not happy they are trying to push this under the carpet.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:57 am

    limb wrote:
    caveat emptor wrote:
    limb wrote:Can anyone explain why the Ukrainian troops around Odessa still haven't been bombed by the Russian air force? Why do theystill have lots of combat capable vehicles?
    Unless they can hit concentrations of vehicles, i don't expect them to waste Kalibrs on individual ones. It is far from the fronts and aviation has to come from Crimea. It would be pretty exposed to AA systems.

    I thought 90%+ of Ukrainian SAMs have been destroyed.  They could use KABs, kh-25s, S-25Ls, Kh-38s, etc.

    Why bomb Orcs in Odessa when they can use those sorties to hit them in Donbass? Suspect

    What is it you don't understand???? Odessa is nowhere near the pivotal battle that will spell the doom of the bulk of Ukropistans best trained and equipped effective military forces. Russian thrust at Kiev and movements Odessa were feints, designed to force the regime to muster its reserves in a bid to shore up defenses. Now they are out of position and essentially immobilised , stuck in useless positions where they cannot influence the Donbass cauldron.

    Russia will win this war by playing it smart. Not every plan works (ie the original softly-softly approach hoping that regime control was not as iron-clad as it turned out to be) but the initial attempt was necessary, Russian commanders know what they are doing and they are clearly adapting their stratagems to suit the unfolding conditions on both the battlefield and the enemies internal situation.

    Have some faith. We are only < 8 weeks into this thing.

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:58 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    Did I ask you to be a mediator? I think I am not. The FP once wrote that "Putin is a damn murderer" and had other similar statements. Therefore, yes, I don't like the "tone" he often writes. In the last message, he indirectly wrote that "he thought that more people were killed on cruiser Moscow", so I know why I am writing to him as I am writing to him. What kind of statement is that? You see, I feel a dose of insidiousness there.
    I am not defending Putin, I am defending what made Putin go to war. Therefore, I support the Russian state.

    You are seeing what you want to see. And you're lashing out at anyone who disagrees with your point of you. Take it easy.

    No, I wasn't hoping for more people to be killed on the Moskva. I just counted less than the twitter user did, but he did a serious job and got an accurate estimate.

    I'm glad our MoD released this footage, it's a way of being honest. "Yes, our losses are serious, but we are determined and we will prevail". This is very important coming from the MoD. Because everyone in Russia remembers the episode with the Kursk disaster and it's important that this is no longer the military of Pasha 'Mercedes' Grachev. If people are sure of that, then the home front's confidence will not be shaken.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:01 am

    flamming_python wrote:Pay no heed to the propaganda dribble, that's not the point. What is it that was downed? This is a military equipment forum first and foremost

    While I agree with "pay no heed", the way to implement that is to actually ignore it, not post it to this forum.

    The putrid morass of the internet is full of this shit, and the Western corporate-controlled MSM and big tech echo-chamber already has uncountable ways to spread this garbage to dominate the "discussion".  They don't need our help Suspect

    Its not too much to ask.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:09 am

    caveat emptor wrote:Russian MoD should come out and explain what really happened. I can tell that many Russians are not happy they are trying to push this under the carpet.

    Have you actually considered that the MoD version may be accurate?

    Its entirely plausible that the loss of Moskva was an unfortunate accident, a case of a 40+ year old ship that had not received any upgrades during service, in need of repair, soon to be put into reserve, compelled to serve in wartime as a radar picket ship and area AD, suffering a catastrophic accident due to causes as yet unknown.  The loss of Kursk was an accident, as was the Komsomolets, as was the Otvazhny back in 1974.  These things can happen.

    I'll withhold judgement until I know for sure.  Given that this is war, I would expect that anyone sympathetic to Russia should be doing the same.  Bloody-minded insistence on casting aspersions against the Navy and its leadership is just giving comfort to the enemy.

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:20 am

    par far wrote:Another thing is, the western media is going crazy about the Kherson Region.

    There might be a referendum in the Kherson Region.


    Only the Ukro media has ever mentioned anything about a Kherson People's Republic and according referendum, together with instructions to their supporters to not allow it to happen

    It's a move only to mobilize Ukrainian support in Kherson, nothing more

    No Russian or pro-Russian source has ever mentioned anything about a KhPR

    I don't know what the Russian plans are for this region, but I doubt it's going to be regarded as separate from the rest of the Ukraine; it's all going to be taken under military administration.

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