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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #7

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:26 am

    Erk wrote:

    We already know the Russian plans for the special operation, protect Donbass, demilitarize Ukraine and deNazify.

    I have not seen them announce anything else.

    The problem is we don't know their plans. Disarming Ukraine and a neutral Ukraine are nonsense. Because NATO will enter very quickly after Russia's withdrawal. They've been through this already. The goal may be to change power in Ukraine or partition Ukraine and establish some pro-Russian government in the east. Possibly cutting off Ukraine from the Black Sea.

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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:32 am

    BliTTzZ wrote:
    I slightly disagree with that. If Poland will use it's air force and long range armament from Polish territory, there won't be some local retaliation from Russia. And this time it will be American style destruction.  

    I'm curious if they can do so without Russian AEW from Belarus picking their F-16's takeoff or NATO's own AEW picking the JASSM's. They will have hard time denying Poland's involvement which most likely without NATO consent.

    So if Russian actually retaliate by hitting their airbases, there might be no Article-5 to pull.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:37 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Number of inhabitants was about the same

    About the area, I don't know what it was in 1994/1999, but Mariupol, as it is, is not a compact city.

    Yes, that was before the civil war started in Chechenya, about 450k people lived there.
    1994 - hardly believe the number matches. And the same about 1999.
    Mariupol was about 450k, we don't know how many fled before it was closed by Azov.
    As for size, never been to any of those, so I won't judge, based on Wiki.
    140 km2 Mario is kind of standard-sized.
    320 km2 Grozny is a very big area considering the size to be honest.
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    Post  RTN Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:48 am

    For all these years a common trope that does the round of this forum is that domestic Russian weapons are magically superior to western analogs and it's only the export variants that are of poor quality.

    This conflict has laid to rest all those idiotic claims. I'll cite just 3 examples:

    1. There are several types of precision-guided weapons that are neither in service with the VKS nor known to be in development for it. These include precision-guided missiles and bombs that are “network-enabled” and/or equipped with tri-mode seekers for enhanced tactical flexibility.

    2. The integration of the SVP-24 specialized computing subsystem on many Su-24Ms has enabled them to employ unguided bombs with greater precision than before; however, given that unguided bombs are inherently less precise, the Su-24M’s inability to use modern, night and adverse weather capable precision-guided weapons – especially stand-off weapons – remains a huge limitation.

    3. The Su-25SM, it is equipped with a Klen-PS laser rangefinder/designator system, but lacks both a radar and an electro-optical (EO) targeting system, and the only guided weapons it is able to employ are several types of dated laser-guided missiles.

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    Erk
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    Post  Erk Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:57 am

    Arrow wrote:
    Erk wrote:

    We already know the Russian plans for the special operation, protect Donbass, demilitarize Ukraine and deNazify.

    I have not seen them announce anything else.

    The problem is we don't know their plans.  Disarming Ukraine and a neutral Ukraine are nonsense.  Because NATO will enter very quickly after Russia's withdrawal.  They've been through this already.  The goal may be to change power in Ukraine or partition Ukraine and establish some pro-Russian government in the east.  Possibly cutting off Ukraine from the Black Sea.

    NATO can't even keep their citizens warm and fed, and it's only going to get worse as they pour tax payers money into weapons of war instead of the basics required to support a civilization.
    Meanwhile the US military industrial complex, (and the bankers that own it), say "Thank you, come again".

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    Post  mavaff Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:06 am

    Arrow wrote:The question is, what are the Russians' plans towards Kharkiv and Odessa?  These are much larger cities than Mariupol. scratch


    I think Kiev is a distraction to keep Ukr forces stalled there waiting for a storming that will never happen. No need to destroy it, Russia needs a functional Kiev once war is over.
    Odessa is maybe more interesting to get but it will be part of the negotiations. I may be wrong here (I have been already many times on this conflict...lol) maybe Russia will start focusing on Odessa once Mariupol get decontaminated and freed.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:08 am

    Erk wrote:

    NATO can't even keep their citizens warm and fed, and it's only going to get worse as they pour tax payers money into weapons of war instead of the basics required to support a civilization.
    Meanwhile the US military industrial complex, (and the bankers that own it), say "Thank you, come again".

    This does not change the fact that Ukraine will not be neutral even if it signs the agreement. The West will break them very quickly by introducing troops, and Russia will do nothing. That is why neutral Ukraine is nonsense. NATO was also never to move eastwards again.

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:08 am

    Zhirinovsky died

    End of an era for sure

    He didn't get to see the new world, much as Albright didn't

    But he might have witnessed its very beginning at least, if he was still coherent a month ago

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:13 am

    RTN wrote:For all these years a common trope that does the round of this forum is that domestic Russian weapons are magically superior to western analogs and it's only the export variants that are of poor quality.

    This conflict has laid to rest all those idiotic claims. I'll cite just 3 examples:

    Don't see why Russian weapons wouldn't perform to spec.

    If you're judging Western weapons by Iraq and Afghanistan, you've got a problem

    In this conflict it's not Russian weapons against Western weapons, in case you haven't noticed. At the most, Russian weapons against Ukrainian & Soviet weapons integrated with NATO systems, datalinks and others.

    1. There are several types of precision-guided weapons that are neither in service with the VKS nor known to be in development for it. These include precision-guided missiles and bombs that are “network-enabled” and/or equipped with tri-mode seekers for enhanced tactical flexibility.

    Such as?

    2. The integration of the SVP-24 specialized computing subsystem on many Su-24Ms has enabled them to employ unguided bombs with greater precision than before; however, given that unguided bombs are inherently less precise, the Su-24M’s inability to use modern, night and adverse weather capable precision-guided weapons – especially stand-off weapons – remains a huge limitation.

    The Su-24M can use such weapons and even Iraq in the Iraqi-Iranian war demonstrated the use of air-to-ground precision guided missiles by Su-24s

    But the Su-24M is a legacy platform in any case so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up

    In this conflict the Su-34s have flied plenty of sorties. Just because we don't have videos of these planes launching these missiles and then hitting the targets, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The MoD has been very conservative with videos.

    3. The Su-25SM, it is equipped with a Klen-PS laser rangefinder/designator system, but lacks both a radar and an electro-optical (EO) targeting system, and the only guided weapons it is able to employ are several types of dated laser-guided missiles.

    Again, what are you basing your evidence of its use or lack of use of?

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:23 am

    RTN wrote:Haven't come across a single Russian MBT that is sporting an APS or caged armor. Also missing in action is Nakidka camouflage system.


    The T-72B3Ms have caged armour, and some T-80 variants sporting the Drozd were seen in Belarus a week ago.

    The Nakidka was never adopted.
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    Post  Scorpius Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:27 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    On Monday, the pro-Kremlin tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda briefly reported an even higher death toll, estimating the number of Russian troops fallen at 10,000. The report was later removed from the tabloid's website.
    a denial was issued almost immediately: the KP editorial board stated that the publication's website had been subjected to a hacker attack. Unknown cybercriminals allegedly gained access to the portal administration interface and carried out a "fake stuffing" into the material following the results of the next briefing on the situation in Ukraine. "The false information was immediately deleted," the publication reported

    https://info24.ru/news/v-minoborony-otchitalis-o-razgrome-nacbata-donbass.html

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    Post  Erk Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:28 am

    Arrow wrote:
    Erk wrote:

    NATO can't even keep their citizens warm and fed, and it's only going to get worse as they pour tax payers money into weapons of war instead of the basics required to support a civilization.
    Meanwhile the US military industrial complex, (and the bankers that own it), say "Thank you, come again".

    This does not change the fact that Ukraine will not be neutral even if it signs the agreement.  The West will break them very quickly by introducing troops, and Russia will do nothing.  That is why neutral Ukraine is nonsense.  NATO was also never to move eastwards again.

    It certainly doed change things.

    The only reason Ukraine have a decent size military now, is because someone else is paying for it, the Ukrainian economy is a basket case, a big part of their GDP comes from the transit feed from the Russian pipeline, Ukraine can't afford a big military.

    When NATO get forced to pull back into their shells because they caused a global economic collapse with sanctions, Ukraine will loose military funding, which will be a good thing, then they can focus on being a productive country, not a proxy for the US agenda, which is basically make Germany fight Russia. But Germany won't fight Russia if it's starving and cold.


    Last edited by Erk on Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:29 am

    Azov in Mariupol not only keeping civilians in the city as human shields, but also seemingly having actual human shields in their positions



    Disgraceful. I somehow hope this video is mislabeled and from an earlier time though, when they just took over a house for some reason

    All the civilians fleeing Mariupol are telling horror stories about these Azov dickheads and the Ukrainian army. The civilians left in the city too, who are also providing info to Rus and DNR forces about remaining Ukr military positions. Plenty of vids on that.

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    Post  Scorpius Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:30 am

    flamming_python wrote:Zhirinovsky died

    The news has already been refuted: https://t.me/vv_volodin/365

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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:31 am

    Well compared to what has been published by Ukrainian so far.. the Russian troops deathcount looks much less in that hacked Kp magazine.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:22 pm

    Have you ever seen the size of the RPG warhead or even the launcher? Where is the real estate to fit beam riding sensors?

    The beam riding sensors on the back end of Russian missiles are actually rather small and are simply an optical port like a pinhole camera lens like on a cell phone.

    To be honest such an arrangement would be overkill and would complicate the design rather more than needed to achieve the required effect.

    A simple gyrostabilisation system, which are widely used on even very small drones these days and would fit on your thumbnail and cost a couple of dollars could be used to control nose fins to stop the missile veering off course due to sidewinds, and a decent laser range finder and ballistics computer as fitted into modern rifle scopes with the ballistics of the different rockets loaded in would make the hit probability for modern rockets rather better without making it a lot more expensive.

    The RPG-32 is a good example of upgraded optics moving forward.

    That's why bean riding is reserved for missiles like Kornet.

    The Bulat is half the size of Kornet, and the new version of Metis-M2 is supposed to drop the wire guidance and adopte beam riding guidance.... it means the missiles can fly faster and further... and it is cheaper.

    Yeah right. Thousands of Russian soldiers dead. An Islamic jihadi strongman still calling the shots in Chechnya and we are told Russia won.

    Soldiers on both sides are Russian soldiers, civil wars are always bloody.

    The results speak for themselves however, they have peace and law and order in the region now...

    The question is, what are the Russians' plans towards Kharkiv and Odessa? These are much larger cities than Mariupol

    Suspect it depends on what happens... if the nazis run away, good, if they dig in then the cancer needs to be burned out.

    I slightly disagree with that. If Poland will use it's air force and long range armament from Polish territory, there won't be some local retaliation from Russia. And this time it will be American style destruction.

    If Poland are stupid enough to want to dip their toe in this water then they should expect to lose that toe in the very best situation and the whole leg most likely... to which daddy US and HATO leader will say... we told you not to test that water... it has alligators...

    You were lucky to just lose a leg...

    The problem is we don't know their plans.

    Don't you think us not knowing is a good thing, because Nazis can read and this is a public forum and those scum might decide to read what we speculate to get an idea of what is coming... do you want to help them?

    Disarming Ukraine and a neutral Ukraine are nonsense.

    It is what Russia wants... last time the west ignored Russias security concerns the Ukraine got invaded... if HATO wants to enter Ukraine after this is over, then do you think they will be as nice as they have this time... do you think their attacks will be limited to the boundaries of the Ukraine?

    This is not a game.

    So if Russian actually retaliate by hitting their airbases, there might be no Article-5 to pull.

    Poland is a soverign country and can get involved if they wish, but article 5 becomes null and void if you start something yourself... sending weapons to the Ukrainians is already borderline act of war shit that you can bet the west wouldn't put up with if Russia was doing it.

    For all these years a common trope that does the round of this forum is that domestic Russian weapons are magically superior to western analogs and it's only the export variants that are of poor quality.

    Not at all.

    Western weapons are white elephants designed for the show room and not the war room, they are shiny and enormously expensive and have to be used sparingly because they can't afford to make too many of them because even though the west prints its own money they are very very expensive.

    1. There are several types of precision-guided weapons that are neither in service with the VKS nor known to be in development for it. These include precision-guided missiles and bombs that are “network-enabled” and/or equipped with tri-mode seekers for enhanced tactical flexibility.

    Fitting three different types of sensors to a weapon makes it much more expensive... and what is this network supposed to do.

    It couldn't find IEDs in the Middle East till they exploded, a command guided Ataka missile can be fired from about 8km away in the current model to hit a vehicle sized target with a better level of accuracy than the 2.5km range Javelin with its magic IIR seeker that does not always lock properly and sometimes seems to target parts of a vehicle that are not soft and squishy and don't result in a kill... but they earn the company that make them an eye watering amount of money... which is their primary concern.

    2. The integration of the SVP-24 specialized computing subsystem on many Su-24Ms has enabled them to employ unguided bombs with greater precision than before; however, given that unguided bombs are inherently less precise, the Su-24M’s inability to use modern, night and adverse weather capable precision-guided weapons – especially stand-off weapons – remains a huge limitation.

    Good point... but not the one you just made... the nav attack bombing system upgrade to the Su-24M allows the aircraft to achieve levels of precision the west gets with guided weapons, but from safe altitudes for MANPADS and ground fire using dumb iron bombs

    For the inherently less precise... really... so snipers in the west must be shit because they use inherently inaccurate unguided bullets... what a bunch of useless censored  they must be.  Rolling Eyes

    The Su-24M is able to carry and use a wide variety of TV and IIR and laser guided air to ground rockets missiles and bombs, but as its onboard systems allow it comparable accuracy with cheap dumb bombs why would they waste money and time with guided weapons in that situation.

    It is not that it can't use guided weapons, it just costs more to do so, with the targets still being destroyed so only an American MIC company would want more expensive guided weapons to be used.

    3. The Su-25SM, it is equipped with a Klen-PS laser rangefinder/designator system, but lacks both a radar and an electro-optical (EO) targeting system, and the only guided weapons it is able to employ are several types of dated laser-guided missiles.

    Again, all your time spent on this forum has clearly been wasted, the Su-25SM3 has built in EO targeting systems and both it and its predecessor the Su-25SM can carry a full range of TV and IR and laser guided bombs and rockets.

    The fact that most of its targets are direct fire battlefield targets that need to be removed with HE power which is normally a 250kg bomb or a large calibre rocket explains why you don't understand the aircraft and how it operates.

    If you want to use standoff weapons then why bother with armour protection.... why is the A-10 armoured?

    Why does it have a gun because to use it it would need to close within MANPADS range and they would quickly take out an A-10... when the US attacked Kosovo and fought the Serbs they didn't even bother with helicopters and ground forces... they just murdered from the sky... often the people they claimed they were there to help...

    This does not change the fact that Ukraine will not be neutral even if it signs the agreement. The West will break them very quickly by introducing troops, and Russia will do nothing. That is why neutral Ukraine is nonsense. NATO was also never to move eastwards again.

    If HATO move in to Ukraine again they represent the same threat they did when Putin decided to attack in the first place... which was bioweapons labs, nukes, and more nazis.

    If Russia have to attack again I suspect different tactics will be used... and HATO forces will run away to leave the Ukrainians to deal with things again... will they put up with that... don't know... don't care...

    I am sure Putin will give them clear warnings this time around that what they are doing is a red line, and I am sure there will be more respect from HATO because this time around they will be seen as the core problem and not some nazis in orc clothing.

    The Nakidka was never adopted.

    During their own tests the Javelins failed to lock on to standard Soviet tanks because of a lack of significant IR signature.... it looked like the set the target tank on fire to get the missile to lock... money well spent there... no wonder the US and HATO are giving them away...

    As for police forces, one thing I have noticed in the ex Soviet countries I have been to they all have a high number of police forces, I put this down to most have a president who is corrupt and needs a large police force to maintain public order and it's also a hark back to the Soviet era where they had high police numbers.

    It was also partly a public presence with less cops sitting on their arses at desks pushing around paper and instead actually patrolling the places they are supposed to be protecting and monitoring.

    UK cops will be screen watchers soon with all the cameras they have around the place... no need for being able to run fast or over power a criminal, their skills will be fast forwarding hours of video footage... if it didn't happen on camera then it didn't happen I guess.


    Post number 1003 says:

    When it got out of control last time Garry threatened a 1 day ban for this rule break.

    And two posts later in post 1005, you yourself post a conversation....  clown   pirat

    The issue is that they have been played THREE times by the anglos in the last century, yet they don't seem to learn that they cannot trust them. Something very serious will need to happen, for them to crawl out of US arse anytime soon

    The west is made up of countries that have all fought each other in brutal wars and done terrible things to each others prisoners... Japan and Germany and France and the UK and US and Australia and New Zealand and so many other European countries that now act together as allies because you don't get progress being at each others throats and killing each other all the time, but somehow this cooperation and trade solution does not apply to Russia... it seems it can apply to any former Soviet republic, but not Russia, because Russia is a rival to the power of the US.

    The real difference is taht Russia is not trying to take control of international organisations like the US does... sounds like a much better ally and partner going forward.

    With the result of NATO breaking up I would pay with my own money if anyone even if its fucking North Korea would push for a coup de 'etat in Mexico and create a Anti-American sentiment of eager Mexicans to get war on the US. All that just so you fuckers start fearing war and death and treat it as the rest of the world as something bad!

    That is them in a nutshell... no respect for any other country and war is a game played away and without consequence because our media are not interested in the gory truth... western media is infomercials.

    Sure, I think the Russians believed the Ukrainian government would fold and flee at first - which didn't happen. That miscalculation has caused them trouble in that the large force near Kyiv is completely useless right now because the decisive battles that need to be won are in the east.

    I disagree... if they thought the south and east would fold there would be no need for the forces near Kiev.

    The Orc army is partially in the Donbass and Lugansk regions... they knew they were not going to just all surrender on day one... most know they will either be killed or face life in prison for their crimes and have not reason to survive this conflict.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8766-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-8

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