Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+54
Vann7
caveat emptor
bitcointrader70
magnumcromagnon
flamming_python
SeigSoloyvov
andalusia
Big_Gazza
zorobabel
Airbornewolf
Hannibal Barca
Azi
PortugueseMan
Karl Haushofer
Rodion_Romanovic
nero
Regular
thegopnik
lancelot
PhSt
RTN
George1
dino00
Atmosphere
TMA1
medo
ALAMO
miketheterrible
franco
auslander
LMFS
VARGR198
calripson
par far
Krepost
Arkanghelsk
Sujoy
jhelb
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
nomadski
Firebird
PapaDragon
ATLASCUB
Backman
Arrow
sundoesntrise
owais.usmani
GarryB
kvs
lyle6
Finty
Isos
JohninMK
Hole
58 posters

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 8028
    Points : 8016
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  Hole Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:12 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:@Arch

    Lol your full of shit, We will not sign an INF treaty unless China also signs on. You are taking the remarks out of context. This alone shows how delusional you are thinking.

    Your choice. Russia will simply introduce more missiles, and various types of them, to counter what the US has

    You are also insane if you think we are kicking the Baltics out of NATO and pulling back.

    No-one said anything about kicking anyone out of NATO

    When Russia talks about the 1997 force disposition it's mainly talking about the ABM facilities in Romania and Poland

    Russia wants them gone

    In return Russia will I'm sure be happy to sign that treaty on hypersonic cruise missile development that Washington wants, at least for what concerns submarines and vessels. Then it will cancel its Zirkon program and destroy its stocks

    It will also withdraw its MiG-31Ks from the Crimea, and the Iskanders from Kaliningrad as their primary targets won't exist anymore

    Hypersonic weapons are here to stay. Only two of the weapon systems that Russia developed in the last years violated the treaties that were broken by the americans: S-500 and Nudol. All others are fine even if the INF treaty is resurrected.

    magnumcromagnon, kvs, lancelot and Arkanghelsk like this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 11783
    Points : 11910
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:07 pm

    Location of incidents, here the attacks from pro NATO Ukrainian forces.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 FL0TwYbWYAEIbO7?format=jpg&name=360x360

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 FL0TqunWYAgrvi6?format=jpg&name=medium

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 FL0T0imXoAofCqQ?format=jpg&name=360x360

    LMFS likes this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 11783
    Points : 11910
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:17 pm

    British Defence Ministry Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Sorry but it won't load for me.


    [img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLzy6CvVQA4yPE2?format=png&name=small[/img]
    medo
    medo


    Posts : 4367
    Points : 4449
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  medo Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:26 pm



    Ukrainian president Zelenski finaly cancel Minsk 2 agreement. Russia could now freely recognize LNR and DNR.

    VARGR198 likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7800
    Points : 7876
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  flamming_python Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:34 pm



    DNR evacuating civilians

    If Russia was intent on recognizing the DNR/LNR, it could do so and simply enter with its army to the contact line, ending the war

    However the fact that the DNR is evacuating civilians means that they are gearing up for fighting. The war will resume from where it left off in 2014.

    Now I understand what Biden meant when he said that sanctions will be softer if Russia only invades 'a bit' of the Ukraine. And him and all the other talking heads predicting Russian invasion tommorow, the day after, or after that, etc..
    He was hoping for exactly Russia recognizing the DNR/LNR and deploying on its territory

    Arkanghelsk likes this post

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7403
    Points : 7377
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:42 pm

    Well, it may have to do with Ukrainians being Ukrainians and attacking civilians in the border areas.  So it is only making sense to evacuate them and then strengthen their border positions.

    Edit:

    May be fake news that has spread about evaccuation:

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7403
    Points : 7377
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:48 pm

    medo wrote:

    Ukrainian president Zelenski finaly cancel Minsk 2 agreement. Russia could now freely recognize LNR and DNR.

    We will see if true. If true, then Russia will probably just recognize DNR/LNR as their own entities. In other words, they will protect them, they can do it without even invading too.

    Arkanghelsk likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7800
    Points : 7876
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  flamming_python Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:13 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    medo wrote:

    Ukrainian president Zelenski finaly cancel Minsk 2 agreement. Russia could now freely recognize LNR and DNR.

    We will see if true.  If true, then Russia will probably just recognize DNR/LNR as their own entities.  In other words, they will protect them, they can do it without even invading too.

    No, this is a return to where things left off in 2015

    Kiev will attempt to advance and wipe the rebels out

    The rebels will attempt to advance and establish more people's republics as they do so, recruiting more locals

    The Russian army will not enter until the Kiev regime has fallen and a new one invites it in - at which point it will rush to the Polish and Romanian borders (where the ABM sites are). Similarly to how the SDF invited Russia and the Syrian Arab Army in when the Turks invaded (Russia and the SAA were waiting at the border before then)

    lancelot likes this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 13617
    Points : 13762
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  kvs Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:25 pm

    There is talk of the Kiev regime moving its ministries to Lvov. That seems to indicate that they expect to lose their
    grip on eastern and central Ukraine. It looks like a baiting operation organized by NATzO, but it is rather dramatic.
    The economy of Kiev regime controlled Ukraine is imploding and the LOS shelling theater must be running out of steam
    as a diversionary ploy. The lack of enthusiasm is apparent from the pathetic demonstration attendance.

    It is more than likely that the LDNR forces will be doing the fighting. The regime forces are demoralized and not
    even an army. It is possible that eastern and central Ukraine can be lost by the regime in a cascade of defections
    requiring little fighting.

    GarryB, flamming_python, magnumcromagnon, DerWolf, miketheterrible and Arkanghelsk like this post

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 2579
    Points : 2581
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:32 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    medo wrote:

    Ukrainian president Zelenski finaly cancel Minsk 2 agreement. Russia could now freely recognize LNR and DNR.

    We will see if true.  If true, then Russia will probably just recognize DNR/LNR as their own entities.  In other words, they will protect them, they can do it without even invading too.

    No, this is a return to where things left off in 2015

    Kiev will attempt to advance and wipe the rebels out

    The rebels will attempt to advance and establish more people's republics as they do so, recruiting more locals

    The Russian army will not enter until the Kiev regime has fallen and a new one invites it in - at which point it will rush to the Polish and Romanian borders (where the ABM sites are). Similarly to how the SDF invited Russia and the Syrian Arab Army in when the Turks invaded (Russia and the SAA were waiting at the border before then)

    VKS can get airborne and provide air support similar to how USAF does for SDF

    Once they knockout the Kiev regime, let the Russian army run amok
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 3495
    Points : 3497
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  ALAMO Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:36 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    No, this is a return to where things left off in 2015

    Well, as far as I find Jakov Kedmi losing his mind lately, or we see the age coming, I still will agree with him with much pleasure when there is a conclusion.
    Both DNR and LNR armed forces are organized in a corps-like way.
    Those are two assault corpses, made to secure Mariopol and Krematorsk.
    Just after the Russian army will wipe off the 404 orcs from the way.
    Armia osvobaditieli.

    flamming_python likes this post

    avatar
    par far


    Posts : 3340
    Points : 3585
    Join date : 2014-06-26

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  par far Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:20 pm

    One of things that is being not talked about is that this crisis is pushing the oil prices to $100 per barrel and it is depressing the value of the Ruble.

    There are several very good benefits here for Russia.

    Russia is producing Oil and Gas cheaply, while selling it for US Dollars and Euros.

    This is creating a financial bonanza for Russia.







    Hannibal Barca, VARGR198, miketheterrible and LMFS like this post

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8158
    Points : 8303
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:46 pm

    kvs wrote:There is talk of the Kiev regime moving its ministries to Lvov.   That seems to indicate that they expect to lose their
    grip on eastern and central Ukraine.   It looks like a baiting operation organized by NATzO, but it is rather dramatic.
    The economy of Kiev regime controlled Ukraine is imploding and the LOS shelling theater must be running out of steam
    as a diversionary ploy.   The lack of enthusiasm is apparent from the pathetic demonstration attendance.  

    It is more than likely that the LDNR forces will be doing the fighting.   The regime forces are demoralized and not
    even an army.   It is possible that eastern and central Ukraine can be lost by the regime in a cascade of defections
    requiring little fighting.


    Well put, my thoughts exactly! I was always perplexed (but I chose not to engage in debate) why everyone thought the Novorossiya forces needed Russia to invade to save them?

    My oh my, 7 years have passed and everyone has forgotten the shellacking, 1-sided ass kicking of biblical proportions that the Ukronies were on the receiving end called the 'Debaltsevo Cauldron?' And please don't refer to Debaltsevo as Debalt-sieve, or however you spell it...the only thing that was a 'sieve' at that battle was the Ukronie AFVs allowing DNR/LPR anti-armor weapons to pass through Ukronie armor like water droplets! Ukronie armor welds are like Elmers glue on wet toilet paper! lol1

    For those who still remember the Debaltsevo Cauldron, in what shape or form are the Ukronies better than they were back in 2014/15? Considering all cardinal parameters, they're at least an order of magnitude worse in their current situation now in 2022 than they were back then, and in some cases possibly 2 orders of magnitude.

    Just consider the following:

    1.) DNR/LPR are better organized, better trained, better equipped, employ better strategies, their morale is much higher, and they're even more battle hardened now than they were back then. Their domestic military industries are much better now, and they're local economies are better too, especially because they have access to the large Russian market.

    2.) Meanwhile Pukraine is much, much worse now! They're economy is a open sewer, there's been a 50% reduction in Russian gas passing through their pipes, and they can't rely on DNR/LPR coal anymore! Ukronie force organization is even more garbage, with worse strategy. They're worse equipped because their domestic military industry is nothing more than vaporware and glorified makets. They're morale is in the shitter with mass desertions, and they're now recruiting pregnant women! Let's not forget they're training is straight out of a Monty Python skit!



    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

    kvs, LMFS and Hole like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4996
    Points : 4996
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  LMFS Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:48 pm

    flamming_python wrote:In return Russia will I'm sure be happy to sign that treaty on hypersonic cruise missile development that Washington wants, at least for what concerns submarines and vessels. Then it will cancel its Zirkon program and destroy its stocks

    It will also withdraw its MiG-31Ks from the Crimea, and the Iskanders from Kaliningrad as their primary targets won't exist anymore

    Seriously... Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8158
    Points : 8303
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:51 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:In return Russia will I'm sure be happy to sign that treaty on hypersonic cruise missile development that Washington wants, at least for what concerns submarines and vessels. Then it will cancel its Zirkon program and destroy its stocks

    It will also withdraw its MiG-31Ks from the Crimea, and the Iskanders from Kaliningrad as their primary targets won't exist anymore

    Seriously... Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

    Not one of his best posts... Rolling Eyes

    miketheterrible and LMFS like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 10273
    Points : 10259
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  Isos Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:17 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:In return Russia will I'm sure be happy to sign that treaty on hypersonic cruise missile development that Washington wants, at least for what concerns submarines and vessels. Then it will cancel its Zirkon program and destroy its stocks

    It will also withdraw its MiG-31Ks from the Crimea, and the Iskanders from Kaliningrad as their primary targets won't exist anymore

    Seriously... Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

    Not one of his best posts... Rolling Eyes

    US aren't making any such deal with Russia because China is a greater danger for them than Russia. For that matter I doubt that even Russia would sign such deal with the US and let China have land based 1000-5000km range missiles while they don't.
    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1209
    Points : 1215
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  thegopnik Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:22 am

    TMA1 wrote:Hearing rumors of UK and Polish soldiers coming into Ukraine is this true? If not I'll delete my post.

    I don't think polaks feel enthusiastic about supporting a country that openly supports bandera for infamously genociding polish civilians. I think the country just wants russia and Ukraine to kill each other as much as possible but Ukraine has no fighting chance at all.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7800
    Points : 7876
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  flamming_python Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:10 am

    kvs wrote: The regime forces are demoralized and not
    even an army.   It is possible that eastern and central Ukraine can be lost by the regime in a cascade of defections
    requiring little fighting.

    Possible. But don't count on it.

    The Ukrainian army has been peppered with Nazis here and there, and when it comes to the interior ministry - throughout key positions.

    Many of them know that they will be held accountable for their crimes. They won't be keen to defect. Their subordinates of course might. But loyal elements may keep everyone in check.

    ALAMO wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    No, this is a return to where things left off in 2015

    Well, as far as I find Jakov Kedmi losing his mind lately, or we see the age coming, I still will agree with him with much pleasure when there is a conclusion.
    Both DNR and LNR armed forces are organized in a corps-like way.
    Those are two assault corpses, made to secure Mariopol and Krematorsk.
    Just after the Russian army will wipe off the 404 orcs from the way.
    Armia osvobaditieli.

    Na, the Russian army won't be involved until Kiev falls, like I said.

    Whether that will have to wait until the people's republics armies are at the gates of Kiev, or enough of the elite will split and overthrow the regime well before that - is a different question.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total

    kvs and miketheterrible like this post

    VARGR198
    VARGR198


    Posts : 486
    Points : 490
    Join date : 2015-08-09

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  VARGR198 Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:12 am

    GarryB, magnumcromagnon, Airbornewolf, Maximmmm, miketheterrible, Hole, 11E and Finty like this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7800
    Points : 7876
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  flamming_python Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:18 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:In return Russia will I'm sure be happy to sign that treaty on hypersonic cruise missile development that Washington wants, at least for what concerns submarines and vessels. Then it will cancel its Zirkon program and destroy its stocks

    It will also withdraw its MiG-31Ks from the Crimea, and the Iskanders from Kaliningrad as their primary targets won't exist anymore

    Seriously... Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

    Not one of his best posts... Rolling Eyes

    Dunno, makes sense to me

    Putin didn't start the development of those wunderwaffen for no reason. If Moscow's security interests are affirmed, then there is no need to keep Pentagon generals awake at night about a missile that can reach them in 5 minutes when launched from a sub 500-600km from the western seaboard Razz

    But if this Ukraine shit is really going down - so then **** them. They're blowing their chance to make a deal.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8158
    Points : 8303
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:30 am

    Hole wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    That's so fake. No sign of explosion at all. They can do better...

    White helmet tactic. Use a hammer, claim it was a bomb.

    GarryB, kvs and Finty like this post

    ATLASCUB
    ATLASCUB


    Posts : 1161
    Points : 1171
    Join date : 2017-02-13

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  ATLASCUB Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:18 am

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Giphy

    Is this shit starting or what? The back and forth of giving unconditional surrender term extensions from both sides...asking to "reconsider" again and again going on for over a month now is tiresome. The chips are on the board.

    lyle6 likes this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 1430
    Points : 1426
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  lyle6 Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:55 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Dunno, makes sense to me

    Putin didn't start the development of those wunderwaffen for no reason. If Moscow's security interests are affirmed, then there is no need to keep Pentagon generals awake at night about a missile that can reach them in 5 minutes when launched from a sub 500-600km from the western seaboard Razz

    But if this Ukraine shit is really going down - so then **** them. They're blowing their chance to make a deal.

    Gorby signed those missiles away because he had the world's largest and most powerful military even without them and more importantly he didn't have the benefit of hindsight to know that deals with the US are not worth the paper they are written on. Fat chance Putin's going to give away one of his few trump cards for next to nothing. The US has the massive military that they clearly could not afford though, so perhaps they could kill 2 birds with 1 stone and sign that away instead, then they could get their hypersonic deal Twisted Evil

    GarryB, Hole and lancelot like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 3495
    Points : 3497
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  ALAMO Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:46 am

    flamming_python wrote:

    Na, the Russian army won't be involved until Kiev falls, like I said.

    .

    Oh they will.
    Just the same way they were back in 2015 Laughing
    Only this time, nobody will pretend that it is not Iskander that hit them Laughing
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34911
    Points : 35429
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:10 am

    Is this shit starting or what?

    We realise the only thing that would make you happy is another war in Europe, but Putin is not an irrational fool like so many western leaders or their allies.

    Despite all the bullshit in the western press aggressive Russia is not keen on expanding the Soviet Union II and also invading countries so they are in their sphere of power.

    Gorbachev was worried about the short warning times of IRBMs in Europe and signed the INF treaty despite giving up SS-20 missiles which gave Russia an enormous advantage at the time because he knew when the US deployed similar systems they would eventually create that would be very destabilising.

    Putin on the other hand doesn't want peace at all costs and now realises the west wont accept Russia as an equal and Russia wont do subservient like the EU and UK do, because if they capitulated it would be at the bottom of the pile below the EU and below the UK and their leader the US and Israel.

    I really don't think Putin will give away Zircon or anything else to the west because going forward they are going to be important not just in Europe but everywhere else.

    The INF treaty didn't cover Zircon which is ship launched and it didn't cover Kinzhal either because it is aircraft launched. The only thing banned by the INF treaty would be ground launched Kalibrs which AFAIK they have not deployed... despite AEGIS Ashore being Tomahawk ready.

    Oh they will.
    Just the same way they were back in 2015 Laughing
    Only this time, nobody will pretend that it is not Iskander that hit them Laughing

    The next logical step for Russia, if the Ukraine has declared the Minsk agreements void, would be to recognise these regions as independent of Kiev... that would allow them to trade and openly support them if they choose in the same way HATO is supporting and arming Kiev.

    Russia probably has a lot of drones they want to test in European conditions and this would be ideal, not to mention new guided and semi guided artillery types... what better test than on nazis?

    The use of drones can warn Ukrainian forces of an attack so only the hardcore get minced.

    The irony of western nazis going to fight for the Ukraine whose oligarchs seem to mostly be jewish, against christian white Russia... but then they couldn't fight for Russia because nazis are scum through and through.

    magnumcromagnon likes this post


    Sponsored content


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #32 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #32

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:03 am