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miketheterrible
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    Russian Navy: Status and News #6

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:27 pm

    I would be all for Russia building Chinese ships so long as they use Russian weapons and electronics.

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    Dima
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    Post  Dima Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:16 pm

    Yes. That's the correct approach when building in Russia.

    But that's just not enough. Also, Russian shipyards will take some time to get back to the pace required. That's why orders need to be placed with Chinese shipyards for a sizable number of Type-054A as well.


    But on an urgent basis, there need to have an emergency transfer of 12 Type-054A frigates from the Chinese service in say 6 months time. Nothing lower and nothing higher, coz then PLAN will face shortage facing USN/allies
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:26 pm

    Dima wrote:In my view few options that Russia needs to consider and act upon on an urgent basis, considering ships take time to arrive and the current crisis/war is going to be a long drawn one. The white colonial forces will look at tightening control in the Baltic and harass Russian shipping around the world considering Russian navy have a CRITICAL SHORTAGE of surface combatants.

    1) Adding 12 - 24 units of Pr.956 by retaining the KVG based steam propulsion unit, but with new VLS configuration.

    2) 12 - 24 units of Pr.11536. This should start once Zorya-Mashproekt comes under control of Russian forces.
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 Mp10
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8750p300-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-3#363569

    Need to restart the production of Pr.11356 at Zaliv, Baltisky, as well as Yantar.
    I'm not considering the Pr.22350, coz its construction is still monopolized by the worst shipyard in Russia.

    Below ones are even better, considering it will be from an ongoing smooth production line. Payment through natural gas.

    3) 12-24 unit of Type-054A. The below one is the newer version with a universal VLS.
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 FMmr_KCUYAEsYsl?format=jpg&name=large

    4) 12 units of Type-054A. EMERGENCY TRANSFER of these ships from PLAN service. The fastest route to fill shortage of escorts and for deployment.

    Any talk of cost, etc in this case are rubbish and not worth the time wasted on it, Coz these are very critical needs.
    Russian Navy needs to start adding, at the least, 24 proper ocean going surface combatants of Frigates and Destroyer class in the next 3-5 years. The best start would be with the option 4.


    .


    Well, once Nikolaev is in (Novo)russian hands, Russia can manage and rebuild the infrastructure there and assign the shipyards there to be temporarily managed by the main russian shipyards (like it has been done in Crimea).

    11356 frigates would be a nice restarting points for the former communara61 shipyard (the one the built the Slava class cruisers), while russian shipyards in the Baltic sea can concentrate on the newer projects

    And maybe instead the other shipyard (the one that used to build aircraft carriers), could be slowly restored and start at least at the beginning with landing ships (e.g. modified 11711 type). In addition there is another large civilian shipyard in Nikolaev and another one in Kherson....

    Good for building oil tankers and cargo ships to improve trade with Asia and South American countries

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    Dima
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    Post  Dima Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:01 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Well, once Nikolaev is in (Novo)russian hands, Russia can manage and rebuild the infrastructure there and assign the shipyards there to be temporarily managed by the main russian shipyards (like it has been done in Crimea).

    11356 frigates would be a nice restarting points for the former communara61 shipyard (the one the built the Slava class cruisers), while russian shipyards in the Baltic sea can concentrate on the newer projects

    And maybe instead the other shipyard (the one that used to build aircraft carriers), could be slowly restored and start at least at the beginning with landing ships (e.g. modified 11711 type).  In addition there is another large civilian shipyard in Nikolaev and another one in Kherson....

    Good for building oil tankers and cargo ships to improve trade with Asia and South American countries
    I left out those shipyards for a specific reason. The specific reason being the workforce. The entire workforce will need to be sanitized before any construction can be started which might take time. Even then, some might filter in.

    The problem with restarting construction in those shipyards without sanitizing could result in the someone gutting the ships under construction. It would be devastating if such a thing happen when the ship is at its final stages.

    These shipyards will be added bonus for sure. But not critical. The most important thing is Zorya. Russia has enough shipyards including Zaliv nearby.

    Once Russia manages to get these under control and in proper shape, the production can start. Not just for the 11356, 1164 (Yes!, shall elaborate later) and a parallel production for M90FR.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:07 am

    In my view few options that Russia needs to consider and act upon on an urgent basis, considering ships take time to arrive and the current crisis/war is going to be a long drawn one.

    Hang on Dima... Micron said this would be a long drawn out thing... he also said Assad had to go...

    The Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan and Putin can pull out of the Ukraine any time they like.... there is no requirement or commitment to stay for 20 years.

    I do agree that the pivot away from the west will require extra investment and acceleration in their navy so that will be a bonus.

    2) 12 - 24 units of Pr.11536. This should start once Zorya-Mashproekt comes under control of Russian forces.

    That would anchor them in the Ukraine and for what?

    The cost of restoring the production facilities in the Ukraine would cost more than the ships you would be building.

    Let the Ukrainians rebuild their own shipyards and give them civilian vessels to build...

    Russian Navy needs to start adding, at the least, 24 proper ocean going surface combatants of Frigates and Destroyer class in the next 3-5 years. The best start would be with the option 4.

    I don't see that happening... we don't know what sort of problems these designs might be having... their propulsion systems might be awful... and most systems wont be compatible with Russian naval systems which would limit their usefulness.

    But that's just not enough. Also, Russian shipyards will take some time to get back to the pace required. That's why orders need to be placed with Chinese shipyards for a sizable number of Type-054A as well.

    I don't agree. Even 24 destroyers available now could not cover the worlds oceans... the west could simply monitor their locations and harrass ships where there is no close Russian navy presence.

    I would ramp up frigate and corvette production and start to lay down some destroyers but it will be upgraded previous gen ships that will do the international work... the corvettes will free up the older larger vessels that could be upgraded better suited to long endurance long range missions with modest armament upgrades so older weapons can be retired to streamline the MIC.

    What will stop the French from doing this sort of thing is doing it to them... perhaps even in places where illegal drugs or weapons supplies might be found so prosecutions could delay the release of the ships for very long periods.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:26 pm

    Dima wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Well, once Nikolaev is in (Novo)russian hands, Russia can manage and rebuild the infrastructure there and assign the shipyards there to be temporarily managed by the main russian shipyards (like it has been done in Crimea).

    11356 frigates would be a nice restarting points for the former communara61 shipyard (the one the built the Slava class cruisers), while russian shipyards in the Baltic sea can concentrate on the newer projects

    And maybe instead the other shipyard (the one that used to build aircraft carriers), could be slowly restored and start at least at the beginning with landing ships (e.g. modified 11711 type).  In addition there is another large civilian shipyard in Nikolaev and another one in Kherson....

    Good for building oil tankers and cargo ships to improve trade with Asia and South American countries
    I left out those shipyards for a specific reason. The specific reason being the workforce. The entire workforce will need to be sanitized before any construction can be started which might take time. Even then, some might filter in.

    The problem with restarting construction in those shipyards without sanitizing could result in the someone gutting the ships under construction. It would be devastating if such a thing happen when the ship is at its final stages.

    These shipyards will be added bonus for sure. But not critical. The most important thing is Zorya. Russia has enough shipyards including Zaliv nearby.

    Once Russia manages to get these under control and in proper shape, the production can start. Not just for the 11356, 1164 (Yes!, shall elaborate later) and a parallel production for M90FR.

    Is the Slava class (project1164) cruiser Ucraina anchored in Nikolaev in acceptable state to be completed and modernised? I thought the hull was not in the best shape....

    As far as the workforce, it will take a while to build it up, but they can start train new people and bring some workers from other parts of Russia in the meanwhile to help speed up the process.

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    Post  lancelot Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:00 pm

    Do not get your panties in a knot. While I would be ok with Russia ordering some Type 054A or Type 075 ships from China I think you are worrying about this too much. Russia's merchant marine is kind of in the small side. And any dealings with companies like Maersk can be replaced with the largest shipping company in the world. The Chinese COSCO. Let HATO try to impound COSCO ships. COSCO owns the largest container terminal in Los Angeles area (also only fully automated one). If they just stop processing cargo it will make US transport bottleneck get exponentially worse and you might see riots in the US when shelves become even more empty. Oh and forget paying the Chinese with gas the flow is still kind of small. It would likely be done with oil.

    Russia should have had expanded Gorshkov class frigate construction to three shipyards instead of just one yesterday. They still have time to do it.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:03 am

    Russia should have had expanded Gorshkov class frigate construction to three shipyards instead of just one yesterday. They still have time to do it.

    I would guess the reason they haven't is because they have an upgraded enlarged design being laid down for testing... they laid down the original and tested it and used it for a bit and the upgraded enlarged version is the changes they wanted to the design.

    In that situation I would think they couldn't mass produce these ships till they know the changes and improvements they made work and it now does what they want better and more efficiently.

    So you want to expand production... which do you start producing in three shipyards?

    The new untested one, or the old ones they clearly wanted to upgrade?

    I would say take the time to get it right or you might end up like the USN with 3 useless Zumwalts and 17 useless LCS ships that need replacing despite their enormous costs.

    For China, knowing that Russia will have large volumes of gas they no longer want to send to the EU, they might start expanding their use of gas... it is much cleaner burning than the coal fired power stations they normally rely on, and likely cheaper too.

    The cheap energy in the form of gas is shifting from Europe to Asia... the implication on production costs will be interesting to see and the Middle East and US operators selling to the Asian market will be priced out of the game and will all have to shift to the European market to make their money.

    Lots of European industries wont survive, while others will struggle on very low margins... but they will blame Russia of course...
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:24 pm

    At night on March 10, 2022, a detachment of Pacific Fleet ships was seen at the entrance to the Sangar Strait.
    Later they passed the strait, moving southwest towards the Sea of ​​Japan.

    "Адмирал Пантелеев"
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 11-10510

    "Совершенный"
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 11-10511

    "Громкий"
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 11-10512

    "Гремящий"
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 11-10513

    "Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов"
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 11-10514

    "Игорь Белоусов"
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 11-10515

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    Post  Lurk83 Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:40 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I would be all for Russia building Chinese ships so long as they use Russian weapons and electronics.

    I don’t see why they couldn’t have china build hulls of Russian design with supervision from inspectors from Russian shipyards and maybe even engines (if it’s an existing Russia design then should be able to rengine it with Russian engines later during upgrade if necessary) and just fit out all weapons and electronic systems once the hills have been handed over to Russian shipyards. Surely this would speed things up significantly?
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:44 pm

    Lurk83 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I would be all for Russia building Chinese ships so long as they use Russian weapons and electronics.

    I don’t see why they couldn’t have china build hulls of Russian design with supervision from inspectors from Russian shipyards and maybe even engines (if it’s an existing Russia design then should be able to rengine it with Russian engines later during upgrade if necessary) and just fit out all weapons and electronic systems once the hills have been handed over to Russian shipyards. Surely this would speed things up significantly?
    why would they need that?

    Russia needs money for its own shipyards and employment for its people. Hull building is the easiest part, as long as you have space in a shipyard and trained workers.

    Well, now (after this war will end) 3 large shipyards in Nikolaev and one in Kherson (all of them were able to build large ships, even if 2 of them were only dedicated to civilian use even in Soviet time) will be available and inside a new novorossian state, even if the shipyards are in a dilapidated condition.
    It would be preferable to spend a couple of years to do the same thing that has been done to the Crimean shipyards in order to bring them up to proper shape. And then possibly ordering ships from there.  Bringing back Nikolaev to its former glory (shipyards and naval engineering academy) would for sure help with winning the hearts of the local inhabitants...

    Possibly they can recover first one of the yards and have it initially produce new equipment for the others ( e.g large cranes) while they rebuild the infrastructure and train new workers.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:58 am

    Would not fit in with their desire to denazify and demilitarise the Ukraine.

    There is no reason to massively increase the size of the Russian fleet, the west is not at the point where it is even considering sinking Russian ships because they would lose that game... there is a hell of a lot more civilian and military western surface ship traffic than there is Russian and Russia has lots of submarines.... and missiles that can reach out and touch anything.

    Russian corvettes would be harder for the west to sink than some of their destroyers... an as I said... the west has more to lose in this than Russia.

    Over time Russias civil maritime fleet will expand and will need escorts to some regions, but they don't need surface action groups complete with aircraft carriers for that.

    A destroyer and a support ship would be fine... especially if the support ship was a military vessel that carried anti sub helicopters and drones as well as supplies to keep the destroyer operating for long periods.

    This larger destroyer design will also help in that regard too.

    Those new direct hit to kill anti drone and anti munition (artillery shell or Grad rocket) missiles in the 10-20kg weight with a proximity fuse and its own terminal homing for precision and carried in enormous bundles of 100s of missiles would be an excellent way of dealing with all sorts of odd attacks and situations.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:17 am

    The US has way more nuclear attack submarines. While they would have losses they would still win on that front.
    In fact that seems to be their plan. Just look at this BS about selling nuclear attack submarines to Australia.

    The Chinese will start to crank up their nuclear attack submarine production soon. But it would take them like two decades to get parity there.
    Assuming the Chinese don't mess up the program in the first place.
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    Post  Dima Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:45 pm

    Its always good to see the chap coming home, more so, after those disturbing news about it getting hit with Ukranian rockets (not impossible) and sunk. But it definitely was a bit too worrying coz the least I would like to see is Russia, who already have a critical shortage of ships, loosing one.

    RFN Vasiliy Bykov (368) Entering Sevastopol harbour on 16-03-2022.
    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 FN-VN0kWQAkaujt?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  Dima Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:I don't see that happening... we don't know what sort of problems these designs might be having... their propulsion systems might be awful... and most systems wont be compatible with Russian naval systems which would limit their usefulness.
    The "problems" most often talked about when bitching about Project 956 was its propulsion. You might have seen it much in keypub fora and others since early 2000s.

    My stand on it remains the same then and now. Improper maintenance, unless someone shows me there was something else, which I might have missed.

    The fact that the Chinese are using their 4 x 956E and have even kept them and upgraded their destroyers, contrary to the popular bitching about unreliable propulsion of the 956, shows the problem as such is not with the propulsion/design.

    To expand a little in simple terms, marine boilers are "delicate" stuff, coz they need to have pure/distilled water feeding the tubes. The quality of the water needs to be checked and maintained at specified levels. Failure of which results in impurities depositing in the tubes. These salt deposits clog the tubes, and over time cause corrosion and even tubes bursting. That's how most of the boiler explosion generally happen.

    I don't agree.  Even 24 destroyers available now could not cover the worlds oceans... the west could simply monitor their locations and harrass ships where there is no close Russian navy presence.
    True. I never intend to stop at 24 destroyers. You might have also seen me talking much about 11356, 22160, Type-054, 1166, tankers, etc, and bitching about the disastrous 20380/3/5 with approx 15-20 day endurance, which might have also irritated some.

    What I want to see is multiple task group led by a destroyer which can be deployed to various theaters. Task grroup will looks like this.
    1 x 956 or anyother
    1 x 11356 or Type-054A
    2 x 22160
    2 x PS-500 ASW
    1 x 23130 or newer tanker/replenishment

    All the above ships have no less than 30 days endurance.
    Now as an example for deployment during crisis .... 2 task group along the north and 2 along the south of the Islanders.


    Btw, many here are simply not getting the larger picture w.r.t the need for a good fleet. I seriously wonder how many in this forum were actually born in the 70s or atleast in the 80s, though older guys/vets do exist. But most looks like from the 90s, who's only interests, not surprisingly, are in fancy star wars kinda stuffs leaving out the bread and butter.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:53 am

    The US has way more nuclear attack submarines. While they would have losses they would still win on that front.

    It is not about who has the most submarines, but more about what Russian ships can do when they consider they are under attack.

    A western or even neutral ship wanting to board a Russian ship can't just jump aboard... there are protocols and rules.

    Permission needs to be sought and granted... in an hours time a submerged sub could get within firing range for the captain of that civilian ship to get into contact with them, then the ball is in their court... do they want to risk a torpedo or anti ship missile for this?

    Most of the time I would say no.

    After they do it a few times some surface ship escorts in regions where there are issues will likely be set up.

    Wanting China to build 30 Frigates or destroyers for them ignores the problem of crews and port space for those ships, not to mention support ships to keep them operating.

    In fact that seems to be their plan. Just look at this BS about selling nuclear attack submarines to Australia.

    That was to bully China... Australia don't need an SSN for Australian waters... an SSK would be much much cheaper and more suitable for the role of silent hunter... Aussie SSNs are to operate off Chinese waters pissing off the Dragon.

    The Chinese will start to crank up their nuclear attack submarine production soon. But it would take them like two decades to get parity there.
    Assuming the Chinese don't mess up the program in the first place.

    The combination of more Russian and more Chinese ships and subs is going to be more problematic for the west than most other things they could do.

    With UKSK launchers on Russian subs that means 50km+ range ballistic rocket powered torpedoes and 4,500km range land attack cruise missiles, as well as 1,500km range anti ship and land attack missiles is a formidable armament for any submerged sub or corvette.

    Every vessel adds a node to the network with sensors and weapons that expand its power and reach...

    The "problems" most often talked about when bitching about Project 956 was its propulsion. You might have seen it much in keypub fora and others since early 2000s.

    Yes, not much around in public about it during the cold war but obviously everyone inflates issues afterwards, either Russians not happy with Ukrainian engines in ships, or someone just slagging Russian ships.

    The Russian Navy was never over funded, and has been through problem periods just like every other branch, but as you mention delicate components requiring strict attention and likely interrupted parts supply and support from the Ukraine due to political issues and of course that is a recipe for problems to happen... a few issues and the reputation sticks.


    Btw, many here are simply not getting the larger picture w.r.t the need for a good fleet. I seriously wonder how many in this forum were actually born in the 70s or atleast in the 80s, though older guys/vets do exist. But most looks like from the 90s, who's only interests, not surprisingly, are in fancy star wars kinda stuffs leaving out the bread and butter.

    I totally agree, but also think the upgraded Udaloy are rather physically big for what they are... they are called Frigates, but what they should have is a lot of new automation and likely a reduced crew size that would allow the addition of a dozen or two naval infantry that could be carry to board other ships or be placed on Russian registered civilian ships to provide protection in particular regions.

    The Udaloys are overkill for coastal patrol vessels and with their upgrades could be made long endurance ships... with some support vessels like the new long range models designed to operate with ships away from Russian ports for long periods they could operate for very long periods away from Russian waters.

    The time it will take to get their heavier Gorshkovs into service will be time to get those gas turbines working properly and mature for serial production, then they can start to look at new Destroyers.

    36 Frigates and 26 odd destroyers plus about 10-12 cruisers as well as 6 new 40K ton helicopter cruisers and perhaps 2 new CVNs to compliment the Kuznetsov CV and they will be looking very strong... and will be putting the Royal Navy and even the French Navy to shame.

    The Russian Navy is going to see a shift in its importance and a growth in its development and focus, but that will also include a shift to find export partners outside the western clan, which also means an expansion of the civilian fleet as well.

    Westerners see navies as invasion fleets but to operate globally you need global reach and nothing gives that to you like a strong navy, and the Russian Navy has Corvettes and Subs that would make the commander of carrier groups worried about what he is doing...
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    Post  Navy fanboy Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:08 am

    We all saw the articles of that patrol ship being sunk by a Grad rocket but as we learnt it was fake footage. Does anyone see anything wrong with current video?

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    Post  teh_beard Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:21 am

    They hit explosive materials already partially unloaded from it with debris from shot down Tochka-U. That caused three secondary explosions.
    To prevent danger of explosion of all munitions left on board it was submerged by Russian sailors.

    If it was 'sunk' by the missile, with everything that was onboard there would be no ship, no two other landing ships in port and no Berdyansk port too. Yet they all remain.

    [/thread]

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    Post  JohninMK Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:10 pm

    I think by most definitions the photos show the ship is 'sunk' albeit in shallow water.

    So yes, to the first part of your question. The answer to the second part is believed to be no as the RuN seem to have scuttled it themselves.

    Just what caused the fire is still not clear.

    Russian Navy: Status and News #6 - Page 4 Berdyansk-Port
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    Post  Krepost Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:46 pm

    First correction: It was not the ORSK. It was the SARATOV.
    Second correction: There was not the Ukrainians (no Tochka and no UAV). It was a carelessness related incident where ammunition that was being unloaded exploded and spread like wildfire.

    R.I.P. Saratov

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    Post  lancelot Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:10 am

    I saw a video where there was an explosion in mid-air and fragments fell into the ship. Then it started burning.
    I do not think it was an explosion on board the ship. It looked like an enemy projectile fragmenting.
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    Post  Krepost Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:25 am

    lancelot wrote:I saw a video where there was an explosion in mid-air and fragments fell into the ship. Then it started burning.
    I do not think it was an explosion on board the ship. It looked like an enemy projectile fragmenting.

    Post video please.
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    Post  lancelot Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:29 am

    I did not keep a link. Sorry.
    There are videos from RT several days ago, I think it was March 19th, showing Tochka-B debris in Berdyansk from a previous attack.
    https://t.me/msgazdiev/778

    So they at least tried firing Tochka toward the harbor before.

    The video I saw had something fragmenting in the air above the ship. Then the hot fragments fell onto the ship.
    I do not know which kind of munition it was. If it was a missile, a rocket, or whatever.

    http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2022/03/ah-no.html
    "Per the amphibious ship Saratov, it is a loss and being a very old ship she will be struck down. The ammo compartment exploded due to hit by cassette warhead and it started a massive fire. The fire was dealt with, but this old ships is a goner. "

    I agree with him. It looked like some kind of cluster ammunition. Or maybe something which exploded in mid-air.
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:25 pm

    From what I understood.

    Russians flooded the ship to stop the fire. It will be surfaced easily with pumps and send to a crimean shipyard for repairs.

    The ships suffered collateral daamages and doesn't seem to have been hit directly.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:00 pm

    MOSCOW, March 29. /TASS/.
    In 2022, the Far Eastern Shipbuilding and Ship Repair Center (FSCRC) will modernize the Irkutsk nuclear submarine and repair the Admiral Vinogradov large anti-submarine ship, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a conference call on Tuesday.
    "This year, it is necessary to modernize the nuclear submarine missile cruiser Irkutsk, repair the large anti-submarine ship Admiral Vinogradov, work to restore the technical readiness of the nuclear submarine missile cruiser Tomsk at a permanent base," Shoigu said, speaking about the state defense order for DCSS for 2022.He said that in 2021, FTSSS enterprises repaired and serviced 112 ships and vessels of the Navy. The frigate Marshal Shaposhnikov has also been equipped with a modern effective strike system. "As a result, the specified level of technical and combat readiness of the Pacific Fleet has been ensured," Shoigu stressed.

    He said that at today's meeting, the progress in the implementation of the state defense order in 2022 by the enterprises of the FTSSS will be discussed.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14213613

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