Russian Navy: Status and News #6

lancelot wrote:Any news on what the Neustrashimy refit consisted of? Is it a deep upgrade with weapon systems upgraded or just a refit to get it back to work? Given the time they took I assume the first.

Like I said, some anti-ship missiles woudnt hurt.

The other ship of the same class as the Neustrashimy has the Kh-35 Uran. So I would assume they put that in.

This submersable patrol boat is very interesting... I would imagine some for of EW or radar picket type role together with deception as well.

A group of four or five of these vessels with corner reflectors might appear to be much larger on radar than they actually are, and broadcasting signals from a few AESA arrays used to scan the surrounding airspace might make the enemy think they are a more substantial unit or force than they actually are, so they could act as a diversion or even the first wave of an attack... if the enemy responds with a massive attack with anti ship missiles they could certainly detect that and submerge in plenty of time to evade such an attack with zero chance of losses.

Conversely you might have some of these vessels operating with other submarines, so if the enemy are alerted to the presence of your subs and deploy anti sub aircraft and ships these vessels could surface and engage those ships with capable modern anti ship missiles and also the aircraft with capable medium and long range SAMs that could obviously surface and lure enemy forces away from you sub force.

Equally if the enemy use their own subs to try to engage your subs these subs can surface and act like surface ships hunting your subs and getting them to reveal their position to your silent subs present there who could relay the results of their much better sonar arrays to the other platforms there to engage.

It is like a mixed medium platform... like an amphibious jet aircraft that can fly to locations faster than any boat can sail... land on the water, and drop a dipping sonar or deploy a towed sonar array and release torpedoes to deal with anything found, but also get airborne if under attack itself.

This submersible ship can evade anti ship weapons by being a sub and evade air deployed and ship deployed anti sub weapons by being a ship.

What will be important is the balance they can achieve as to how good a sub and how good a ship it will be.

I remember in the 1990s there was a computer game on the Amiga 500 called Interceptor and the bad guys in the game, which was set in the San Fransisco area were fighter aircraft being launched from a fictional Soviet submersable aircraft carrier.

At the time I thought it was a good idea, but how many aircraft could you possibly fit on a carrier that size, and the obvious problems that when it is on the surface it is very vulnerable, and when it is submerged it is not a carrier anymore...

New ships don't have portholes and the walkways down the sides of the ship are normally fully enclosed now, but to make it fully submersible is a big further step in complication... you wouldn't want anything much bigger than a corvette sized vessel...

Sujoy wrote:Rubin has unveiled the 2nd version of its BOSS patrol ship that combines the benefits of a submarine & a surface patrol ship.

Looks like the PLAN have the same idea, and already have a prototype afloat...

Mindstorm wrote:Страж is a patrol unit with obvious limits (it cannot boast obviously the same offensive and defensive equipment of a surface unit of equivalent cost neither the kinematic and sensor capability of a submarine one) but at the same time this unit would boast a survivability totally unknow up today for any unit of the same displacement class.

A Страж could patrol an area with its sonar and radar receiving data from satellite network and engage from very long range an enemy unit with its missiles, a group of enemy aircraft and ships could deliver, at this point, a saturating attack with AGM-158C LRASM , Naval Strike Missiles, JSOW against it and this entire attack would become totally worthless because within few dozen of seconds the Страж could easily descend 30-50 m underwater.

The same could happen when a group of P-8As, armed with sonobuoys, Mark-54 torpedos and deep charges to hunt a "submarine", after an under-water contact in an area, would become easy prey for a surface unit with a powerful radar appearing from literally nowere.

In this day and age when situational awareness is being provided by swarms of drones, Russia somehow believes that this neither here, nor there vessel will somehow remain undetected. Would have scored some points had it been unmanned, but it’s probably not that either.

You guys would have been much better designing a stealthy destroyer. The acoustic signature of the Zumwalt class destroyer is comparable to that of the Los Angeles-class submarines.

Basically, what the Russian Navy is settling for is a compromised vessel that is neither a well developed surface combatant nor a well developed boat. Technologies that eliminate or substantially simplify existing submarine hull, mechanical, and electrical systems are missing because this is supposed to be a ship while at the same time numerous combat systems, traditional rotating radar, [preferably] a Tumblehome wave piercing hull are all missing because this is supposed to be a boat.  Your James Bondski stuff is a Timex watch in a digital age.

Apart from having an extensive satellite network at LEO, the U.S Navy will deploy dozens of X-61 Gremlin drones that can cover hundreds of miles of the ocean and will pick up the signal of this BOSS ship in an instance. These drone wingman will drastically improve a P-8A, MH-60, F-35 aircraft’s situational awareness by flying ahead with infrared, electromagnetic, radar or visual sensors. This will improve the human pilot’s situational awareness, map out targets, or identify the location of radars and air defense systems to provide a clear corridor for the manned aircraft. Once identified a volley of torpedoes will be fired at this ship/boat.  You may choose to run, but may not choose to hide.

blah blah blah... I have better things to do than wade thru a load of nonsensical exceptionalist clap-trap from an self-appointed armchair-expert...

Put simply, this concept is for a submarine that can operate as a patrol vessel when running on the surface. It will be a mostly conventional submarine design with an enlarged sail that incorporates additional sensors, weapons and facility to launch and recover UAVs. What makes this clown think that it will be so vulnerable to detection and interdiction as to make it impractical, yet at the same time he yabbers that the failed Zumwalt white elephant is acoustically quiet (and therefore hard to detect)??? USN satellites and Gremlins will render it impotent, yet presumably USN Virginias will rule the waves and remain undetectable?

Is there is something in the water than makes Murkans this dumb?

That ship-marine is not for Russian Navy so can we all just sit this one out?

I mean it's carrying Kornet ATGMs FFS...

At least the new "Russian Wunderwaffe" got RTN's attention!

Big_Gazza wrote:Looks like the PLAN have the same idea, and already have a prototype afloat...

Regularly stealing Russian technologies certainly help but how did the Chinese develop the prototype this fast? Could be 3D printing.

Sujoy wrote:Regularly stealing Russian technologies certainly help but how did the Chinese develop the prototype this fast? Could be 3D printing.

The Chinese are the world's largest shipbuilder. Larger than South Korea or Japan. So it is hardly surprising they can build a ship quickly.
And no the US is nowhere near the top 3.

It is a concept, I am sure with a lot of thought they could come up with a range of roles for which its specific design features make it particularly useful and its weaknesses are negated or minimised.

If they build a prototype then they can test it, but we can hardly talk about is sensibly till we know what they expect it to excel at... they might just want it for short range patrol, or they might want it to operate two abreast inside the new 40K helicopter carrier landing ships as surface and underwater drones... they might be high speed hydrofoil ships for all we know. Might be all electric drive with a small nuclear power system like the 6 Mega watt power generators they are going to use for their space tugs... that is roughly the power the Kilo class subs ( about 5.1 megawatt)....

lancelot wrote:The Chinese are the world's largest shipbuilder. Larger than South Korea or Japan. So it is hardly surprising they can build a ship quickly.
And no the US is nowhere near the top 3.

U.S builds 2 Virgina Class SSN a year. From this year we will build 3 SSNs a year. Arleigh Burke and Zumwalt class destroyers are being build @ 1 every year. What are you even talking about.

RTN wrote:

lancelot wrote:The Chinese are the world's largest shipbuilder. Larger than South Korea or Japan. So it is hardly surprising they can build a ship quickly.
And no the US is nowhere near the top 3.

U.S builds 2 Virgina Class SSN a year. From this year we will build 3 SSNs a year. Arleigh Burke and Zumwalt class destroyers are being build @ 1 every year. What are you even talking about.

What are you talking about....Zumwalts???

China is far ahead of the US in shipbuilding per year. The only thing the US deliver faster to its navy are nuclear subs. And that is soly because China still is behind in that kind of technology and no massproduction is in place...yet.

RTN wrote:

lancelot wrote:The Chinese are the world's largest shipbuilder. Larger than South Korea or Japan. So it is hardly surprising they can build a ship quickly.
And no the US is nowhere near the top 3.

U.S builds 2 Virgina Class SSN a year. From this year we will build 3 SSNs a year. Arleigh Burke and Zumwalt class destroyers are being build @ 1 every year. What are you even talking about.

Isn't Zumwalt cancelled?

Not in his Disneyland

Actually they are building more Zumwalts but they are sooo stealthy we can't see it!

It still would be progress, for a country that is masquerading SM6 missiles for "hypersonic weapon", to put some food for own shitstream, admit.

RTN wrote:

lancelot wrote:The Chinese are the world's largest shipbuilder. Larger than South Korea or Japan. So it is hardly surprising they can build a ship quickly.
And no the US is nowhere near the top 3.

U.S builds 2 Virgina Class SSN a year. From this year we will build 3 SSNs a year. Arleigh Burke and Zumwalt class destroyers are being build @ 1 every year. What are you even talking about.

At the moment the 2/year sub is a stretch.

And that isthe current speed of the Russian shipbuilding, so building only that much keep up with Russia, and whats about China : D

caveat emptor wrote:Isn't Zumwalt cancelled?

Cancelled yes. But how long did it take for the US to build just one such ship. Two years.

Every single upcoming surface combatant and submarine will be build within 2-3 years.

If Chinese systems are indeed so good as the paid Chinese trolls of this forum claim then why are China's major clients like Saudi Arabia, UAE Pakistan queuing up outside Pentagon to buy U.S weapons.

Pakistan is indeed a major Chinese client, but Saudi-Arabia and UAE have always been major US arms buyers and seems to buy a few "foreign" hardware just to maintain good relations.

Mir wrote:Pakistan is indeed a major Chinese client, but Saudi-Arabia and UAE have always been major US arms buyers and seems to buy a few "foreign" hardware just to maintain good relations.

Those are US protectorates. Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

The Nestrashymyy.

Fully repaired. Fresh coat of paint will be applied when winter is over.

Considering the situation that Russia is facing today, w.r.t the onslaught of white colonial forces, there is an urgent need for augmenting the surface fleet of the navy, without which Russia is likely to find itself in a difficult position to challenge harassment of Russian shipping and blockades.

Recent incident of the French hijacking Russian vessels is just one example. If that's not an eyeopener, yet another one is the statement by Macron of this crisis/war to continue for many years to come. If this is still not an eyeopener, there is nothing that can be done other than to, either surrender or embrace the MAD.

Russia policy makers and supporters & well wishers need to understand that the "world war" has already begun and this onslaught on Russia is going to continue for years to come, if the current situation doesn't already escalate to N-exchange with mutual destruction. In which case, there is nothing more to worry about.

I'm again saying, there is no time to waste. Concentrate on adding surface combatants.
What Russia needs urgently are not ships that are silver bullets, which are good to have, but Russia needs ships which are capable to hold their ground at multiple areas of operation.
I have been talking about it for many years and after the 2014 crisis as well. Can't find the earlier posts, so digging up one of my posts from 2016 to make my points again. Quoting a part of it..

https://www.russiadefence.net/t5090p25-udaloy-and-sovremennyy-destroyers#162807 wrote:The result of distributing the production of nuclear and conventional power plants between Russia and Ukraine is for all of us to see with Russian Navy starved of conventional propulsion units. Since N-propulsion represented the cream of the system, Soviet Russia mainly bothered about developing these units and associated systems inside Russia leaving the conventional units mainly to Soviet Ukraine.

From whats been talked about in other naval threads, the first of the Russian gas turbines for the frigates and destroyers will only arrive post 2020 which is way too late for a navy that kept its hope on arresting the capability decline on its 6 x 11356 and 6 x 22350 frigates.
And what if even the projected 2018-2020 target for gas turbines gets delayed? Doesn't Russian navy want any frigates or destroyers?


In this scenario, my humble opinion is to revisit the Pr.956 destroyers with the required modification (which anyway wont be time consuming and can run in parallel to procurement & hull laying) and order atleast 6 units (preferably 12) which can start entering service 5 years from now.

In my view few options that Russia needs to consider and act upon on an urgent basis, considering ships take time to arrive and the current crisis/war is going to be a long drawn one. The white colonial forces will look at tightening control in the Baltic and harass Russian shipping around the world considering Russian navy have a CRITICAL SHORTAGE of surface combatants.

1) Adding 12 - 24 units of Pr.956 by retaining the KVG based steam propulsion unit, but with new VLS configuration.

2) 12 - 24 units of Pr.11536. This should start once Zorya-Mashproekt comes under control of Russian forces.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t8750p300-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-3#363569

Need to restart the production of Pr.11356 at Zaliv, Baltisky, as well as Yantar.
I'm not considering the Pr.22350, coz its construction is still monopolized by the worst shipyard in Russia.

Below ones are even better, considering it will be from an ongoing smooth production line. Payment through natural gas.

3) 12-24 unit of Type-054A. The below one is the newer version with a universal VLS.


4) 12 units of Type-054A. EMERGENCY TRANSFER of these ships from PLAN service. The fastest route to fill shortage of escorts and for deployment.

Any talk of cost, etc in this case are rubbish and not worth the time wasted on it, Coz these are very critical needs.
Russian Navy needs to start adding, at the least, 24 proper ocean going surface combatants of Frigates and Destroyer class in the next 3-5 years. The best start would be with the option 4.


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