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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:47 am

    The first sea trials of the frigate "Admiral Golovko" project 22350

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:12 am

    European frigates typically have only eight Harpoon missile launchers and weaker air defenses systems. Even the new German frigates of Baden-Württemberg. Firstly, they carry less weapons, and second, the weapons themselves are much weaker. They don't have an equivalent of the old Onyx, much less a Cirkon, or a Caliber.

    The contents of the missile tubes is more important than the number but you have to assume eventually both the Chinese and the west will master hypersonic manouving anti ship missiles... by hard work, by stealing, or some other way, but the advantage the Russians have is their air defence systems which are excellent.

    If anyone is going to sort out the problems of hypersonic manouvering threats it will be Russia and they have a window of opportunity to work it out for themselves because they have the threat on hand to test themselves.

    This is good in attack and defence because their air defence will get practise at shooting down very difficult targets while their anti ship missile makers will get experience looking at how the best air defences in the world will try to deal with their missiles and work to improve their chances of penetrating those air defences.

    Those penetration aid jammers the Iskander uses are likely not needed for 99% of western air defences... the manouvering on its own would be enough to defeat most of those, but they added jammers and decoys to make it even harder to defeat them.

    The same with their cruise missiles... the difference is that each side is defending their country... they are not just proving one technology like in the west.

    So in the US if some new sort of tank armour turns out to be better than steel on its own then they make the Abrams... the t-80 already had composite armour better than steel but they put ERA and worked on APS systems and added Shtora as well as Nakidka material too... the combination of all that equipment resulted in a better overall protected tank that was probably 20 tons lighter and a quarter of the price too.

    The first ERA only worked with HEAT warheads... and also presumably HESH, but improved models added significant capability against kinetic rounds too... and presumably the Shtora systems will add other jammer and laser capabilities too... the emitters are now tiny.
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    Post  George1 Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:49 pm

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:25 am

    November 30, 01:27
    New equipment of the RF Armed Forces

    The source said that the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" will return to Severomorsk
    This will happen in the second half of December

    MOSCOW, 30 November. /TASS/. The frigate of the Northern Fleet "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" after the restoration of technical readiness will return to Severomorsk in the second half of December. This was reported to TASS by a source in the military-industrial complex.
    "The return of Admiral Gorshkov to Severomorsk is expected by the New Year," he specified. TASS has no official information on this matter.

    Earlier, the Kronstadt Marine Plant completed work to restore the technical readiness of the frigate.

    On November 23, the press service of the Baltic Fleet reported that the ship had successfully carried out missile firing at sea targets in the Baltic with the ship's anti-aircraft missile system "Polyment-Redut".

    "Admiral Gorshkov is the lead multi-purpose frigate of project 22350 for the far sea and ocean zone, built at the Severnaya Verf plant (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation). It joined the Russian Navy in July 2018. Its main strike weapon is the Caliber- NK". The ship also took an active part in testing the latest Zircon hypersonic missile developed and manufactured by the Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya (part of the Tactical Missiles Corporation).

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16457561

    My personal addition that has nothing to do with the text and is therefore not authoritative; I'm glad that project 22350 frigates are more and more in the news because it gives reason to believe that this project is finally moving in the direction of more mass production.

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    Post  Arrow Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:37 am

    Podlodka77 the best thing is that the powerful USA that builds aircraft carriers is not able to design and build a ship similar to the 22350 class. Or even the 20380 class. They continue to build AB class destroyers but nothing modern apart from the aircraft carrier. Shocked

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:52 am

    You are wrong, since the collapse of the USSR, their only project of a large offensive ship was the Zumwalt...   thumbsup
    Yes, it is a pretty scary fact that the number 1 military superpower has not (successfully) designed any type of offensive warship of larger displacement since the collapse of the USSR.
    As good as "Arleigh Burke" destroyers are, that project dates back to the 1980s because that project was approved for construction in 1985, when it was ordered and steel cutting began, and the keel for "Arleigh Burke" was laid in 1988.
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    Post  Arrow Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:14 am

    Zumwalt turned out to be a defeat for the same LCS.  I wonder how their new SSBN Columbia will turn out. Laughing
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:22 am

    SSBN-826 "District of Columbia" (Columbia class SSBN) submarine is supposed to be built by 2030 and become operational in 2031.
    Bearing in mind that the keel for that submarine was laid on June 4, 2022, I must state that the Americans always skillfully camouflage the fact that "steel cutting" is actually the beginning of the construction of each of their ships and submarines, and it is usually several years before the keel is laid for a submarine or ship.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:04 pm

    To be fair, it is nothing unusual.
    Steel cutting is never stated as the beginning of construction, and multiple shipyards have prearranged sheets, parts, and sometimes even sections. It is only a matter of space, order size and cash flow.
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    Post  Arrow Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:47 pm

    SSBN-826 "District of Columbia" (Columbia class SSBN) submarine is supposed to be built by 2030 and become operational in 2031. wrote:

    I hope that this submarine end like Zumwalt Smile

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:29 pm

    To Arrow

    Bro, you really love navy.. thumbsup
    I am most pleased with the news from Sevmash; the beginning of the construction of submarines, as well as everything else that follows after that. Sevmash is for me the most important link of the Russian military-industrial complex - I love submarines.

    If the Russians launch the K-XXX "Emperor Alexander III" in December this year, as they launched the K-553 "Generalissimus Suvorov" on December 25, 2021, then that submarine will also be active by the end of next year.
    What makes me happy is that "Admiral Golovko" has finally set sail. I have no doubt that "children's diseases" will be eliminated in a year or two, because no beginning is without problems, but that 22350 project seems to be finally moving forward. The beginning is the most important and "Golovko" started everything with new engines.
    This leads me to the opinion that "Admiral Isakov" will also be launched in the next few months.

    I think that brother ALAMO is also right when he wrote that the project to build 21631 and 22800 class SMS (small missile ships) was a good idea.
    Yes, they don't have a long-range AD system and anti-submarine weapons are absent, unless they install a sonar and set "Otvet" in UKSK, but they have had quite an impact on Russian strikes on Ukroshitstan.
    I mean of course 21631 "Buyan-M" because 22800 "Karakurt" has not hit Ukroshitstan yet - that is yet to come. sniper

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    Post  Arrow Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:51 pm

    I love submarines. wrote:


    Me too. Nuclear submarines are one of the deadliest weapons ever created by man in combination with missile and nuclear weapons. In addition, one of the most complex and a huge level of complexity. Where it implies a lot of advanced technologies, materials, etc. It is impressive. Smile

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:01 pm

    December 6, 11:22 am

    The frigate "Admiral Golovko" completed the first stage of factory sea trials in the Gulf of Finland


    The ship stayed at sea for 10 days, during which time its crew and the factory acceptance team tested in practice the maneuvering characteristics of the ship, as well as the performance of components, mechanisms and systems

    MOSCOW, 6 December. /TASS/. The newest frigate "Admiral Golovko" project 22350 completed the first stage of factory sea trials in the Gulf of Finland of the Baltic Sea and returned to the berth of the shipbuilding enterprise "Severnaya Verf". This was reported on Tuesday in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

    "The first exit to the sea of ​​the new ship lasted 10 days. During this time, the ship's crew and the factory acceptance team tested in practice the ship's maneuvering characteristics, as well as the performance of components, mechanisms and systems," the report says.

    Particular attention was paid to checking the frigate's main power plant, navigation system, communications equipment and radio equipment.

    At the Severnaya Verf shipyard, the ship will be prepared for the continuation of factory sea trials in the Baltic Fleet training grounds.


    "Admiral Golovko" is the third and second serial frigate of project 22350. The Northern Fleet now has two ships of this project - "Admiral Gorshkov" and "Admiral Kasatonov". The frigate is named after the naval commander Arseny Grigoryevich Golovko (1906 - 1962), who commanded the Northern Fleet during the Great Patriotic War. Project 22350 frigates carry Kalibr-NK cruise missiles.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16513689

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    Post  Hole Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:06 pm

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 099910
    North of Norway

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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:50 pm

    Kasatonov

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    Post  Begome Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:28 pm

    What do you guys think of the following analysis:

    Remember this image?

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 Possib10

    Compare with available images of 22350 base version frigates and you'll notice that the above concept does not portray a larger ship, certainly not 50-100% larger as the 22350M is supposed to be.
    Also notice that there is a third UKSK module just forward of the helicopter hangar (no that's not a shadow...look closely and compare to other shadows and how they fall).

    That's "interesting fact" #1.


    Now remember how the Redut cells always seemed a bit large...while it's unlikely one could fit 4 9M96 in one Redut cell, the cells could easily be just 70% as wide and still fit one 9M96 missile in them; only then one could put (1^2 = 1) / (0.7^2=0.49) ~= 2 (twice) as many Redut cells in the same area, so 64 instead of 32...seems like a huge waste just to be able to fit 9M100 modules (which are ~30% wider than 9M96 containers) as this ship is supposed to be able to defend other ships to some degree (it's a frigate, after all, not a corvette) and thus likely no more than ~12 9M100 modules would be fitted, so 48 9M100 and 24 9M96 vs 64 9M96. I would choose the latter. Did they really hobble their premier post-Soviet oceanic warship (so far) just so the corvettes could have more missiles for self-defense?
    Further realize that the 9M96M has quite extreme fineness (length divided by diameter), even compared to the S-400 missile 48N6, which flies much faster. Why oh why didn't they make it thicker so it fits better in the Redut cells and in turn can be faster or longer ranged? The answer is likely that higher fineness makes it possible to pack more of them on a land launcher (S-350 and the 9M96 modules for S-400), while the priority for the frigates was to give them some basic air defense first and develop something better later. This "something better" was announced in several sources around 2019, when the improved Gorshkovs were laid down, namely a 400km range missile for Redut (which obviously can't be the 40N6, because it's way too large for Redut); this missile could be made as tall as the 9M96M but ~30% fatter (~= 70% more volume and with similar warhead and optimised long range design ~100% more fuel and thus believably 400km capable) and would fill the Redut cells up much better. But why develop such a missile when the 22350s can't target aircraft at 400km range and the "Super-Gorshkovs" aren't going to be ready until 2030 at the earliest?

    That's (collection of) interesting fact(s) #2.


    Lastly, the latest news claim 9k-10k t for the 22350M, which is about twice the size of the base version Gorshkovs. This means it's going to take even longer and be even more expensive, so fewer will be ordered. Does it really make sense to develop a new missile just for 6 or so ships? A long range radar of acceptable size for 400km range missiles to track even stealthy targets (such as F-35B/C, which are likely to soon see JASSM integration) is also already available (if one compares, e.g. the Yenisei radar from S-500 with the radar on the roof of the heli-hangar in the image on the top of this post, it's clear they have similar size, though on the ship it would be a navalised version, of course). But does Russia really want to wait until 2030 or longer until their more numerous surface ships (in the absence of the Kuznetsov carrier or the "battlecruisers") can defend against F-35s lobbing JASSMs?

    That's (collection of) interesting fact(s) #3.


    So, I'm obviously suggesting that it all seems to fall into place if you assume that the above image is not an early concept of the 22350M, but of the second series 22350 (or that the latter grew out of the former), which has been under construction since 2019. It is about as big as the regular Gorshkovs, has the additional UKSK module, expectedly replaces the Palashs with Pantsirs (which means 9M100 in Redut becomes somewhat redundant) and so gets better radars for long range anti-air targeting with the new 400km range missile for Redut in now much better filled up VLS cells.
    We'll see as early as next year if they manage to launch the first improved version by then.


    Last edited by Begome on Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:52 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : fixed calculation (was right the first time lol))
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    Post  Arrow Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:43 pm

    Golovko
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 20221213-164149

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:48 pm

    Post Begome Yesterday at 11:28 pm

    What do you guys think of the following analysis:

    Remember this image?


    This picture has nothing to do with 22350, or 22350M.
    It is a private entity of "Morinfsysyem Agat" and represents an exploded diagram of the proposed weapon c&c system.
    That's all—nothing to talk about.

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    Post  Begome Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:15 pm

    @ALAMO

    Yes, it's an image that's supposed to primarily advertise the work of AOK Morinsys-Agat, which is a joint-stock company of the Russian military-industrial complex. As such it has close ties with the Russian government, which owns likely the majority of its stock and has on multiple occasions, through presidential decrees, modified the corporate structure. It also looks like it was involved in the project 22350 through participation in the creation of that project's battle management and fire control systems; for example, they seem to be the guys making the control system for UKSK VLS.

    The ship displayed in that image is clearly a variant of project 22350. The fact that the radars on it diverge from the base version is not arbitrary, but rather follows from the fact that the same company also makes radars for land systems and these kinds of ships (including the one proposed on the hangar deck). They also made a well-known video about the contribution of their daughter-companies to these kinds of projects. So to state that this image "has nothing to do with 22350 or 22350M" is not very charitable.

    Now, of course I don't know whether this version is just something the company would like to see and never successfully pushed in the relevant conference rooms or whether it actually found support and the new system's development is being funded and these products integrated into the improved 22350 version design, but this is exactly the point of my previous post: I think that several, now known aspects seem to point to the latter. You obviously believe the former, which is fine. We'll see in the coming years.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:28 am

    MIL.PRESS FLOT

    December 21, 2022 at 15:50 Subject: Navy
    "Admiral Gorshkov" will enter service with the "Zircons" in January 2023"

    The lead frigate of project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov", equipped with anti-ship hypersonic missiles "Zirkon", will enter combat service in early January 2023. This was announced on Wednesday, December 21, by Russian President Vladimir Putin at an expanded meeting of the collegium of the Ministry of Defense.

    "At the beginning of January next year, the frigate Admiral Gorshkov of the Fleet of the Soviet Union will enter combat service with the latest, I repeat once again, sea-based hypersonic missile systems Zirkon, which have no analogues in the world," TASS quoted the head of state as saying.

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 Aa_aa_13

    The lead frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov" has been serving in the Northern Fleet since the summer of 2018. Since 2020, the ship has been participating in tests of the latest Zircon hypersonic anti-ship missile.

    In early December 2022, it was reported that the frigate completed the inter-fleet transition from the Baltic to Severomorsk after scheduled maintenance at the Kronstadt Marine Plant

    The total displacement of the project 22350 frigate is 5400 tons, the length is 135 meters, the width is 16 meters. The frigate develops speed up to 29 knots. Autonomy - 30 days. Cruising range - 4500 miles. Crew - 170 people.

    https://flot.com/2022/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%8235/

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    Post  Begome Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:45 pm

    https://ria.ru/20221226/fregat-1841408847.html

    Adm. Golovko is entering the second phase of factory sea trials. In the first phase the navigation and (now Russian) propulsion systems were successfully tested, while now the artillery, air defense, communication and other radioelectronic systems will be tested.

    So, probably one more factory sea trials after this one to test the battle management systems, ASW and helicopter stuff and offensive missile systems (UKSK and its control systems), which may take place in January or February and then, if everything is fine, which is likely, state tests in March / April 2023.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:27 pm

    The frigate "Admiral Golovko" goes again for sea trials..

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 26-11214
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 27-11211
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 27-11210
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 4 27-11212

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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:44 am

    December 30, 01:04

    "Admiral Gorshkov" with "Zircons" for the first time will lead the Mediterranean squadron of the Navy

    Its release to the sea is scheduled for January 2023.

    MOSCOW, 30 December. /TASS/. The frigate of the Northern Fleet (SF) "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" with hypersonic missiles "Zirkon" will for the first time lead the permanent operational group of the Russian Navy in the Mediterranean Sea next year. This was reported to TASS by a source close to the military department.

    "The Admiral Gorshkov frigate is scheduled to enter the sea for combat service in January 2023. It will solve the tasks of combat duty in the Mediterranean Sea, having Zirkon hypersonic missiles on board," he said, noting that such an event would happen for the first time in history Russian fleet.

    Earlier, the President of the Russian Federation announced a long-range voyage of a ship with Zircon missiles in early January 2023. On December 28, the press service of the Federation Council reported that the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" under the command of Captain 1st Rank Igor Krokhmal had completed preparations for a long-distance voyage. In December, the frigate made an inter-fleet transition and arrived at the main base of the Northern Fleet - the city of Severomorsk after scheduled maintenance at the Kronshtadt Marine Plant.

    "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" - the lead multi-purpose frigate of project 22350 for the far sea and ocean zone, built at the Severnaya Verf plant (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation). He joined the Russian Navy in July 2018.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16718603

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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:19 pm

    If Santa is full of presents for the West this Christmas, this upcoming travel of the Gorshkov promises to trump all previous trolling from Russia by a fair margin... BTW Russia said before that the first carrier of the Tsirkon would be the Golovko, but hey, it was not the case in the end angel

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    Post  Isos Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:35 pm

    Which one of the Gorshkov is supposed to carry 3 sets of uksk ? Is it already build ? Any picture ?

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