Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

TMA1 wrote:More and more I think that truncated r-77 is a legit missile itself. Note the differences in the rear section and it almost looks to be thicker but this could just be an illusion from it's shortened size.

For future reference, do you include the K-77 in your meaning of the signifier R-77?

More and more I think that truncated r-77 is a legit missile itself. Note the differences in the rear section and it almost looks to be thicker but this could just be an illusion from it's shortened size.

With the grid fins it would outmanouver most similar missiles that don't have the complication of thrust vectoring and should be able to track targets with near thrust vectoring performance without the thrust loss... and is a rather small compact missile.

It would also allow the missile to engage its target while still under rocket motor power so its ability to turn should be rather good.

I wonder if that missile is the competition for the 9M100 missile and I also wonder if the 9M100 missile for aircraft use still has an IIR seeker or if it has shifted to an ARH seeker like the ground and ship launched missile seems to have shifted to (presumably for all weather performance in heavy rain or white out or fog conditions).

For future reference, do you include the K-77 in your meaning of the signifier R-77?

Well without a letter or number indicating the individual missile it is a broad statement, but I construed the comment being that this experimental not in service example missile (making it a K) that looks like a shortened fattened version of an in service missile (making it an R) was being quite accurate without using the unknown letter suffix's for the K missile and without the letters denoting which in service model this missile is based on.

I think a smaller shorter range ARH missile makes sense and being ARH and if it has a datalink with the launch aircraft that is modern that could detect incoming missiles from more than 1km or so then this missile could be an anti missile missile too... with lock on after launch capacity, relatively short range but clearly optimised for manouver performance rather than long range glide range.

Thank you. Now I know the difference between K and R in missiles.

It is confusing isn't it...

They have project codes that the companies who make them assign and when they go into testing the military gives them a K designation that turns directly into an R designation if they are accepted into service.

There is always competition for every programme and what sometimes happened was to pick the best foreign design and have a Russian company develop that as far as they can to compete with the most promising domestic model.

To start with there was no competition... the AA-1 compared with the AA-2 was a world of difference in design, both did the job but the Sidewinder was simple and basic and modular making it easier to design new motors or seekers or other components without having to design a new missile... this was taken to the extreme with the R-27 family of missiles, so they essentially replaced the American bits with Soviet bits, but copied things that were clearly better like the gyros, so it had a Soviet motor and a Soviet sensor.

With the R-27 competition the west claims they used a copy of the Sparrow against the R-27 but that is not true because the Sparrow type missile had rectangular fins that were made to appear like the Sparrow with black paint, but the R-27 proved superior anyway.

The R-73 actually competed with a late model Sidewinder copy called the K-14, the R-73 was called Product 72, which became the K-73 for the competition and R-73 when it won.

Product = изделие or transliterated to Izdeliye.

I seem to remember there was a thread on here about missile designations and their meanings.

Yu. Slyusar: production of Su-57 fighter jets increased significantly over the year

17.08.2023, 14:11 4 098

Since the beginning of the SVO, the production of a number of types of combat aircraft has increased many times, it is going "at a dramatic pace"and the production of fifth-generation Su-57 fighters has increased several times over the year. This was stated at the Army-2023 forum by the head of the United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slyusar. interview TV channel "Russia 24".

"For some types [production volumes] have increased significantly. I can say that the new Su-57 aircraft is several times larger this year than in the previous one. At the same time, we do not stop production and deliveries through military-technical cooperation, we fulfill all our contacts – we supply new aircraft, continue maintenance, supply spare parts, " Yu said. Slyusar, specifying that now the priority for the UAC is deliveries under the state defense order and maintaining the serviceability of aircraft that are actively participating in a special military operation in Ukraine.

In 2022, the Russian Defense Ministry received six Su-57 aircraft equipped with first-stage AL-41F1 "product 117" engines: two in May and four in December. In total, ten fifth-generation serial fighters have been transferred to the Russian Aerospace Forces so far. It was reported that the vehicles were used in Ukraine to hit both long-range air targets and enemy air defense systems.

On August 17, also at the Army-2023 forum, Yuri Slyusar declared RIA Novosti reports that the standard engine ("product 30") for the fifth-generation Su-57 fighter requires refinement and continued testing. Earlier, a number of high-ranking representatives of the defense industry said that the tests of the second-stage engine were supposed to be completed in 2022.

"The engine of the second stage for the fifth-generation Su-57 aircraft is already there, it is flying, it is actually undergoing tests, but they will not end the day after tomorrow. We do not deviate from the model agreed with the Ministry of Defense, talking about the fact that it does not exist is empty. But like any fundamentally new engine, it requires further development and testing, " said Slyusar, adding that the team is working professionally and the money has been allocated. Currently, the Su-57 is equipped with intermediate engines with controlled thrust vector AL-41F1, which are a modification used on the Su-35S fighter.

Serial production of Su-57 fighters with new engines will begin until 2027, declared Head of the United Engine Corporation Vadim Badekha. "If they [deadlines] were called, we definitely do not shift them to the right, everything is going according to plan," Badeha said.

https://aviation21.ru/yu-slyusar-proizvodstvo-istrebitelej-su-57-za-god-vyroslo-v-razy/

I am not sure now, but weren't 6 units of Su-57 delivered last year for a total of 10 serial aircraft in operation? 'Multiple times' would mean more than one sqd. only this year. We will see, though I doubt it, unless MoD has substantially change delivery pace for the existing contract, 22 units in total were scheduled for 2024, so that would be 6 units per year on 2023 and 2024

On the other hand, izd. 30 remains under testing and it does not seem like they are in a hurry. Probably Su-35 has VKS more than happy and first stage engine is also more than enough for now, seeing how much time US is taking to deliver simple F-16 to 404 it does not seem like F-22 are being pitched against Su-57 anytime soon...

So, delivery of Izdeliye 30 engine is pushed back for another 3 years? They've quoted 2024 as deadline only last year.

Whiney whiney whiney... the upgraded engine was always supposed to be a midlife upgrade of the Su-57 to compensate for increased weights and addons that reduced performance.... the more powerful engine was supposed to restore performance.

Even without the new engine the Su-57 is already better than any competing aircraft in production... a smaller lighter Su-35 with more powerful engines... and stealth... and its weapons on the inside to reduce drag.

They had said the tests would be complete next year, if I remember well. They did not state before from what year the plane with new engines would come out of the lines, so I don't really know why people are complaining about... the plane will be produced for the next 20-30 years minimum, why the haste?

The more they delay making known critical data about the new engine (I am not even sure the last data available from Lyulka is not some form of disinformation), freezing development and bringing online capacities that trigger red alarms in Washington, the more the corrupt US MIC will keep indulging in developing white elephants by means of totally pathological programs. NGAD should be starved of data and urgency. In parallel, Su-57 already operates with almost complete impunity in the SMO and Russia has achieved air supremacy with planes like Su-35. This is probably the type of war they will face during this decade, not some ultra hi-tech enemies. They know very well what they are doing

This is a good link about the calculation of scenarios for confrontation between nuclear powers by conventional means through proxies, explored for the last 60 years at least both in US and the USSR, of which the current conflict in Ukraine is a prime example:

https://ukraina.ru/20230827/1048950936.html

Or perhaps you need to update your mental model of how deep strikes are performed in the 21st century.

Straight from the horse's mouth in bold.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=0&nid=540554&lang=RU


The UEC called the service life of the new engine of the Su-57 fighter


INTERFAX-AVN - The main engine for the Su-57 fighter, which will provide it with supersonic cruising speed, will last up to 50 years, a representative of the United Engine Corporation (UEC) said.

     "His life path is 30-40-50 years," - said the general designer - director of the OKB. A. Lyulki (branch of UEC-UMPO) Yevgeny Marchukov in an interview with the RF Ministry of Defense TV channel Zvezda.
    “I would even say that this is a 5+ generation, slightly ahead of the 5th generation, because the specific characteristics of this engine correspond to this generation. The main thing is specific thrust, specific consumption and specific gravity,” Marchukov said about the new engine for Su-57.
    According to him, the new engine has nothing to do with the engine of the Su-35 fighter. "He doesn't, he didn't lie next to him," Marchukov said.
    The Su-57 was developed at the Sukhoi company (part of the UAC) under the program "Promising Aviation Complex of Frontal Aviation - PAK FA". As part of development work at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant (KnAAZ, a branch of Sukhoi), 10 experimental machines for flight tests were produced. The first flight of the PAK FA (T-50) took place on January 29, 2010 from the Dzyomgi factory airfield.
    Experienced Su-57 (T-50) fighters are being tested at the airfields in Zhukovsky (LII named after Gromov, part of the KLA) and in Akhtubinsk (GLITs named after Chkalov, owned by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation).
    The Russian military department reported that the Su-57 was tested twice in Syria in combat conditions.
    The first serial Su-57 fighter will be handed over to the military by the end of the year, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov said in August. According to him, the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant named after Yu. A. Gagarin has launched all the necessary work and is fulfilling its obligations to the Ministry of Defense.
    The first serial fighter of the fifth generation Su-57 was planned to be handed over to the Russian Ministry of Defense at the end of 2019, but the plane crashed during a test flight on the eve of delivery.
    In total, by 2028, the Russian military should receive 76 Su-57 fighters and re-equip three aviation regiments with them.
    The first Su-57 fighters will be produced already in serial form, but with engines of the previous generation. The engine of the "second stage" (item 30 produced by UEC), which will provide the Su-57 with supersonic cruising speed, began flight tests in December 2017. It is expected that the test program will be completed in a few years, and from 2023 serial deliveries of aircraft with new engines will begin.
    At the Army-2019 forum, it was reported about the conclusion of a contract for the purchase of promising air-to-air missiles - "product-180" for the Su-57 (according to media reports, a modification of the R-77 medium-range missile).
    In September 2018, the head of the Tactical Missile Weapons Corporation (KTRV), Boris Obnosov, told Interfax that the Su-57 would receive, among other things, the R-37M ultra-long-range hypersonic missile. In addition, according to the source of the agency, the Su-57 has already tested weapons placed in the internal compartments, which is one of the requirements for the fifth generation of fighters. According to Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov, "the Su-57 has everything in order with the in-fuselage armament."
    Su-57 (Perspective Aviation Complex of Frontal Aviation (PAK FA), T-50) is a fifth-generation Russian multi-role fighter developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau (part of the KLA). It is designed to destroy all types of air targets in long-range and close combat, to destroy enemy ground and surface targets with overcoming enemy air defense systems, to monitor airspace at large distances from the base, to destroy the enemy aviation control system. The first flight of the fighter took place on January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

I remember hearing 2025 for when we would start seeing preproduction types out there.

The order still stands at what, 74 Su-57's? So they will get them, just probably not on new engines.

TMA1 wrote:I remember hearing 2025 for when we would start seeing preproduction types out there.

Yes, that was date given in the second half of 2022. This article is from October 2021. When the war first started, they moved date to 2024.
I just wonder what is the reason? Is it import substitution or something else.
They were supposed to get 76 planes by 2027 and maybe new engine will be delivered only after this first order is fully executed.

Russia did not completely gain air superiority over Ukraine. He uses air force only in the vicinity of the front, etc. He does not go deep into Ukraine, because Ukrainian air defense systems are still dangerous.

You need to understand the terms being used. Air Superiority does not mean Air Dominance or Air Supremacy, it means you can remove the enemy air power as a threat to your ground forces most of the time and even when you can't the threat to your ground forces is minor.

Air Dominance is like HATO in Afghanistan where the enemy didn't have any air power, but of course aircraft could still be shot down and the enemy air defence could never be eliminated because it included MANPADS and small arms fire that can never really be eliminated.

Of course the Ukraine is different because not major power was pumping modern air defence systems into the rebels hands in Afghanistan so HATO very much had it easy... if they tried that again I would suspect the Taliban might get some excess stingers and Javelins to play with at the very least.

It is impossible to predict where and when Russia will meet an advanced enemy. It is enough for the current conflict to escalate into a war with NATO and you have an hi tech advanced enemy.

The current reticence to put boots on the ground from the US and most HATO countries suggests it will be avoided as far as possible for as long as possible because they know their losses will be rather more significant than in any previous game war HATO has been playing.

The fact is that VKS does not fly over Ukraine beyond the front line.

Why do you think it needs to?

Targets all over Ukraine are still being hit by missiles and drones, or does the destruction of targets deep in Orc territory only count if you risk planes to do it?

A strike with air-to-surface missiles and VKS-borne glide bombs would be a much cheaper option than the expensive Calibers and Ch 101s.

No it would not... mounting such a strike would need the coordination of a dozen aircraft including fighter top cover and AWACS and other platforms and the risk to the aircraft means the loss of even just one will cost rather more than hundreds of cruise missiles would cost to use instead.

It is expected that the test program will be completed in a few years, and from 2023 serial deliveries of aircraft with new engines will begin.

There is a serious difference between the word expected and the word guaranteed.

What is missing is the phrase... we would like, which of course will be effected by things like development problems or testing problems, or perhaps getting into a war with the Ukraine that leads to essentially Russia fighting a HATO supported Ukraine.

That can sometimes lead to changes in plans, which is perfectly normal.

Refusing to change plans or changing plans at desperate times lead to planes being landed in heavy fog or landers hitting the moon instead of touching down softly.

On the other hand, I think the fact that the Dragon came out of nowhere and suddenly China is pumping out J-20s like it's nobody's business has added to the false notion that Sukhoi is way behind the competition.

Except the Dragon is no threat to the Bear... it is the pissy shitty hormone filled Bald Eagle that pisses everyone off and picks fights when and where it can.

When the F-22 gets new generation more powerful engines then feel free to complain, but even then you will be ignored.

The US has made two 5th gen fighters... and both are over priced and seem to not be very good because they seem to want to restart previous gen fighters to make up numbers.

Europe has made zero 5th gen fighters and seems to be happy to buy from the US... programmes to make their own new fighter are likely to fail as they have in the past.

Only China seems to have 5th gen fighters in production, and good on them... that twin engine variant of the F-35 actually looks rather better and more sensible than the original so well done.

Russia is working on serial production of a heavy 5th gen fighter with presumably a light 5th gen fighter on the way too, and their heavy fighter seems more affordable than the western light cheap numbers 5th gen fighter by a wide margin, so what sort of impact will it and their light fighter have on the world market...

Who knows.

But fretting that it does not have the new more powerful engines to start with is being childish... they will use them when they are ready... these same whiney bitches complaining they are not using them right now would be the first to complain if they started crashing because they were not fully tested.

There's also the assembly of nations that are looking to enter the 'stealth members only club' and are not aligned with the West are patiently waiting for the Su-57, adding to the frustration that maybe it's taking too long. That's just my take.

Well lets be real... the American options are too expensive and wont be available to BRICS countries I suspect, and European designs are paper designs and even if they make it to production are a decade away at least, and Chinese aircraft... well why not try them.

I am pretty sure Russia is confident enough in their ability to make good solid weapon systems that they wont worry if countries look to China to buy some aircraft or countries wanting to buy some Su-35s first for example, and the Checkmate programme is open to export partners... Russia gives rather more input into weapon design than the US does... the US didn't even let the UK integrate its own weapons into the F-35... they claimed it was to keep the aircraft secret, but I suspect it was to stop them working out how not amazing it really is.

Yes, that was date given in the second half of 2022. This article is from October 2021. When the war first started, they moved date to 2024.
I just wonder what is the reason? Is it import substitution or something else.
They were supposed to get 76 planes by 2027 and maybe new engine will be delivered only after this first order is fully executed.

Ahhh, the F-14 didn't become a decent aircraft till it got new engines in about 1990 with the F-14D model... it was otherwise not that great a fighter... the increased engine thrust and new upgraded missiles made it a much better aircraft, but the Su-57 is already a good aircraft with good engines... it is just that the new engines are better.

The old F-14 engines are the same as for the F-111 and are not great for dogfighting at all and of course underpowered.

The F-14A needs full AB to get airborne from a cat launch, the F-14D had the same level of thrust with its new engines without afterburner making takeoffs much safer.

These new engines for the Su-57 will be very important for a carrier based aircraft model, but for the fighter it just means slightly better performance and a slight increase in supercruise performance.

Simple fact, the Engines used on the PAK FA right now are perfectly fine for the jet. This is obvious since Russia is OK with pushing development further on the IZD 30 engines. Judging by the information provided on the Radar performance at 1m^2 targets, means the engines provide more than enough power for it. As for the other features like supercruising, I do believe there is a current ability to do so with current engines. Maybe not as efficient.

So in that regards, Russia will just finish the 76 jets with current engines. They are betting on it to be fully ready for next order.

When in a Russian statement you see written "up to 2027" it means "in the framework of the Long Time Acquisition program 2018-2027" not"after 2027" meaning that they will still transition to new engine during the same period but given that they have ramped up production they would number of plane consigned with the legacy engine would be superior to the ones previously stated just because they would be delivered before the izd.30 would complete its own trials.

caveat emptor wrote:Straight from the horse's mouth in bold.

You mean straight out of the journo's derriere? That part in bold is not from Marchukov, but a summary added after his words.

BTW they just stated izd. 30 will go into the series already in the first batch of 76

Arrow wrote: It is enough for the current conflict to escalate into a war with NATO and you have an hi tech advanced enemy.

That is exactly the point, you cannot have nuclear powers confronting directly in 404 or it will degenerate real quick into WWIII. The West will keep using proxies and that means you are not going to see F-22 in the war. So top of the line supercruising performance is not a must right now, low RCS and advanced avionics being much more valuable at the moment.

Just a few remarks!

According to officials, at the end of the 2023, and in early 2024 we should expect 12 new planes (so, around 22 operational planes in total by the end of 2023), and steady production of 12 planes every year.

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/20217151412-i330K.html

https://www.interfax.ru/business/879003

Also, Su-57 can supercruise with the first stage engines, not so much because the Al-41F1 is a true supercruize capable engine (compared to izd.30 it is not), but because of the advance aerodynamics of the plane in combination with that engine.

https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2013/6/17/1751/

In the same year, with the completion of the first stage tests, Mikhail Pogosyan have announced the combat range of more than 1500 km for the Su-57 while supercruising. Since the Izd.30 first flight was years after that announcement, it is clear that the supercruise range was done with the first stage engines.
Only difference is that with the Izd.30, the supercruise speed is going to be much higher with probably even longer range.

MOSCOW, August 30. /tass/. The fifth-generation Su-57 fighter strikes targets at a range of 120 km during its operation, in the near future it is expected to receive aircraft missiles that will be able to hit targets at a distance of up to 300 km, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS.

"In its own Su-57 solves problems with high quality, effectively hits targets, its distinctive feature is low visibility. Today, the fighter is operating at a range of 120 km, in the near future they are waiting for the arrival of aviation missiles for high-speed air targets at a range of up to 300 km," the agency interlocutor said.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/18614165