VKS Russian Aerospace Forces: News #2

You would be surprised...

It would also be good that they could be looked after properly.

I mean technology has moved on, but who wouldn't want to see old planes with modern much more powerful but also more compact and fuel efficient engines.

I would love to see the ANT-25 with a modern engine in it... made from modern materials its performance would be astounding.

Having it all in one place and decently funded could result in some historically important prototypes being rebuilt or mocked up to real size like those enormous old planes the commies used for their propaganda.

PapaDragon wrote:
Russia should make one big cental aerospace museum to store all that historic stuff

It's all over the place now, it needs one focal point

And it should be enclosed

Na

This way no matter what city you're in there's always something of interest

That museum is in Verkhnyaya Pyshma, which is a small town a few kilometres north of Yekaterinburg, a major city

So it's essentially accessible to anyone in Yekaterinburg or the environs, and it gives people a reason to visit that small town

The Su-24 crashed near Perm, the pilots managed to eject. The plane was making a flight for scheduled repairs.

Source: 

July 31: Su-35S crash in Khabarovsk. 
August 11: crash of a civilian Mi-8 in Kamchatka
August 14: crash of a Russian Be-200ChS in Turkey
August 17: crash of an Il-112B in Kubinka
August 18: crash of a MiG-29SMT in Astrakhan
August 23: a MiG-29SMT burned down on the ground in Astrakhan
August 27: crash of a Su-24 in Perm

...

Russian_Patriot_ wrote:July 31: Su-35S crash in Khabarovsk. 
August 11: crash of a civilian Mi-8 in Kamchatka
August 14: crash of a Russian Be-200ChS in Turkey
August 17: crash of an Il-112B in Kubinka
August 18: crash of a MiG-29SMT in Astrakhan
August 23: a MiG-29SMT burned down on the ground in Astrakhan
August 27: crash of a Su-24 in Perm

...

I'm curious...  what about this post is attracting "likes"?  Posters on this forum "like" the fact that there has been a spate of crashes?

Is this really all just a co-incidence?  2x MiG-29SMT down in Astrakhan sounds fishy. Its not paranoia to suggest so NATO spooks are always looking for ways to stick a fork in Russia, and working a Ukraine sympathiser to wreck things is an old trick.

PapaDragon wrote:
Russia should make one big cental aerospace museum to store all that historic stuff

It's all over the place now, it needs one focal point

And it should be enclosed

Particularly for the big historical stuff that is often down to single airframes.  Mya M-3/4, Myasischev M-50, Sukhoi T-4, Tu-144 (one good one left IIRC), Buran #2 (if they can extricate it from the corrupt Kazahks who have left it to fucking rot in a shed...).  It annoys me intensely to see priceless and irreplaceable aviation artifacts suffering because of a lack of preservation.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Russian_Patriot_ wrote:July 31: Su-35S crash in Khabarovsk. 
August 11: crash of a civilian Mi-8 in Kamchatka
August 14: crash of a Russian Be-200ChS in Turkey
August 17: crash of an Il-112B in Kubinka
August 18: crash of a MiG-29SMT in Astrakhan
August 23: a MiG-29SMT burned down on the ground in Astrakhan
August 27: crash of a Su-24 in Perm

...

I'm curious...  what about this post is attracting "likes"?  Posters on this forum "like" the fact that there has been a spate of crashes?

Is this really all just a co-incidence?  2x MiG-29SMT down in Astrakhan sounds fishy. Its not paranoia to suggest so NATO spooks are always looking for ways to stick a fork in Russia, and working a Ukraine sympathiser to wreck things is an old trick.

If we count the MiG-29SMT as sabotage, we still have 2 crashes due to confirmed technical faults(Su-35, Il-112) and 3 crashes due to pilot error.

JohninMK wrote:Didn't know whether to put this in the general VKS news thread or here. Can Garry or George move it if they think it better there?

I found this pretty good on balance from a top UK Royal United Services Institute RUSI analyst, albeit with the normal digs that you would expect given who pays his wages. Also pre the MAKS-21 revelations. The backdrop he uses, clever but makes him a bit of a poser but what he says is OK.

The channel, Military Aviation History, puts some good stuff out.

Things we adequately covers:

1. Russian innovation in using different radar frequency to detect stealth fighters and correctly noting that massively degrades the advantage of stealth since western fighters dont have the elemnt of surprise.
2. Noting that the russian goal is to deny NATO air superiority rather than battle air support.

His errors:
1. Lack of mention of the role of MiG-31s as survivable awacs and strategic rocket carriers, as well as being an extremely survivable anti stealth BVR platform
3. Russian training is so classified that we don't know how much they use standoff weapons. However, with the massive increase of their stockpiles, it would be disingenous to assume theyre not focusing on them. Also russian bomber pilots by definition train in standoff weapons. Also since the cold war, due to rather extreme overestimation of NATO's air defence network, the russian air force has a tradition of doing intensive SEAD training, something this guy doesnt know. Also, due to their automated nature, standoff weapons don't require much training to use. We cannot infer russian skill in  using them from # of training hours. The variables are related to technology, electronic warfare, tactical planning, reconnaissance competency, etc.
4. While russians are behind on targeting pods, this isnt very relevant for them.  The vast majority of russian short range strike comes from artillery(including drone guided precision shells) and long range standoff strikes dont require targeting pods sine the target is aquired hundreds to thousands of km away. Also the rapid proliferation of drones is making targeting pods less relevant. Why use a manned aircraft for target identification with an extremely expensive pod rather than a cheaper expendable drone?
5. No discussion of role of russian AWACs and GCI and its differences compared to NATO AWACS
6. Him claiming that NATO fighters will detect russian radar emissions from far away is not gauaranteed because the battlefield will be full of noise from electronic warfare.
7. No discussion of russian IRST and its advancement.

Those crashes will be investigated and hopefully lessons learned and applied to these and other aircraft types to reduce the chances of such things happening again.

Some of these aircraft are new or upgraded aircraft that have not had a lot of flying hours, but two are older aircraft.

The best way to move forward is to look at what caused the crashes and make changes to procedures to make them less likely to happen in the future.

ie was it software or hardware related, are current limits and parameters suitable or do they need to be changed... were the pilots properly trained... were they tired...

is there a shortage of pilots in some areas that less capable pilots are being worked etc etc...

Lots of variables.

I'm curious... what about this post is attracting "likes"? Posters on this forum "like" the fact that there has been a spate of crashes?

I hope that they likes are because these incidents are not being hidden or ignored and that they will be investigated properly and changes made if needed to make things safer.

There is zero chance these investigations will make the number of accidents zero, but they could save the lives of some pilots in the future.

Design problems could be found too.

As I have mentioned before the F-111 was in full operational service for several years before being sent to Vietnam where a problem with the tail surface that led to several fatal crashes was detected and fixed.

Big_Gazza wrote:I'm curious... what about this post is attracting "likes"?...

It's called gratitude for posted information

Big_Gazza wrote:Is this really all just a co-incidence?...

Of course not, as always it was the work of Jewish alien lizard-men 'murican fifth column saboteurs who landed from ISS undetected and sabotaged brand new perfectly maintained Russian airplanes​ in order to damage Russia's impeccable prestige

It's the only explanation that makes sense of course and suggesting anything else immediately makes you a Ukrainian

franco wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:I'm curious...  what about this post is attracting "likes"?...

It's called gratitude for posted information

Big_Gazza wrote:Is this really all just a co-incidence?...

Of course not, as always it was the work of Jewish alien lizard-men 'murican fifth column saboteurs who landed from ISS undetected and sabotaged brand new perfectly maintained Russian airplanes​ in order to damage Russia's impeccable prestige

It's the only explanation that makes sense of course and suggesting anything else immediately makes you a Ukrainian

Getting anxious about school starting up again are we

In Russia, there are 3 days left before the start of the school year)
Schoolchildren and students have already strained

Su-25SM attack aircraft named after Roman Filipov

PapaDragon wrote:Of course not, as always it was the work of Jewish alien lizard-men 'murican fifth column saboteurs who landed from ISS undetected and sabotaged brand new perfectly maintained Russian airplanes​ in order to damage Russia's impeccable prestige

It's the only explanation that makes sense of course and suggesting anything else immediately makes you a Ukrainian

Ah yes of course.  Those yaw sensors on the Proton-M rocket in 2013 (carrying 3x Glonass-M) just spontaneously hammered themselves in upside down...

Sabotage does happen. Fact.

Big_Gazza wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Of course not, as always it was the work of Jewish alien lizard-men 'murican fifth column saboteurs who landed from ISS undetected and sabotaged brand new perfectly maintained Russian airplanes​ in order to damage Russia's impeccable prestige

It's the only explanation that makes sense of course and suggesting anything else immediately makes you a Ukrainian

Ah yes of course.  Those yaw sensors on the Proton-M rocket in 2013 (carrying 3x Glonass-M) just spontaneously hammered themselves in upside down...

Sabotage does happen. Fact.

Stupidity happens far more often

And the fact that they still haven't zeroed in on moron who was playing around with a hammer is pure incompetence

PapaDragon wrote:Stupidity happens far more often

Agreed, without any doubt, but pls lets not pretend that sabotage isn't a real problem for Russian authorities.

Come on guys... are you honestly suggesting that a trained engineer would try to fit something and find it does not fit and instead forces it into place?

Expecially something as important as a yaw sensor... a part of the flight control system whose orientation is critical for the rocket to work properly?

Do you really think they would have untrained engineers working on their rockets and satellites?

Stop being so stupid yourself.

Mistakes can certainly happen but forcing something in upside down that was a yaw sensor and that therefore had a required direction of operation that was important for the working of the rocket... where fitting upside down would actually make the entire rocket fail is not an error or mistake... it is clearly sabotage... whether it was the person putting it in or the person reversing the orientation stickers on the device... it was sabotage.

If it was sabotage then where's the culprit?

Not being able to track him down is again incompetence so we are back to main problem: incompetence

PapaDragon wrote:
If it was sabotage then where's the culprit?

https://ria.ru/20130823/958134582.html

https://ria.ru/20130823/958143958.html

Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Friday that a government commission had determined the degree of guilt of the leaders of the Khrunichev Center responsible for the crash of the Proton-M rocket. According to him, Alexander Kobzar, deputy general director for quality at the Khrunichev center, Valery Grekov, head of the final assembly shop, and Mikhail Lebedev, head of the technical control department, were dismissed for improper performance of duties in the manufacture and preparation for launch of the Proton-M launch vehicle. In addition, he noted that a number of officials were also brought to disciplinary responsibility, who did not provide the necessary technologies and control during the assembly of the Proton-M launch vehicle.

Shoigu aircraft falling
https://www.apn.ru/index.php?newsid=40256

owais.usmani wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
If it was sabotage then where's the culprit?

https://ria.ru/20130823/958134582.html

https://ria.ru/20130823/958143958.html

Date: 23.08.2013

You are joking, right?

They had a whole graveyard of wreckages since then

Tsavo Lion wrote:Shoigu aircraft falling  
https://www.apn.ru/index.php?newsid=40256

Very weak logic and no real world data to support own thesis. On top the title as taken from The Sun or Das Bild level newspapers :-)
You really must spend day to look for such niche "experts" dont you?