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    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:To be supersonic at altitude is rather easy, and the speed of sound changes with altitude.

    No known manned aircraft can exceed about mach 1.6 at sea level, but an aircraft at 18,000m doesn't need to be traveling as fast to break the sound barrier at that altitude.


    Yup ~10% less still you need fly more than 1,000km/h though. BTW what makes MiG-1.44 with projected top speed ~3150 km/s a Ma 3 machine Smile

    http://www.fighter-planes.com/jetmach1.htm
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    Post  Giulio Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:37 am

    The mig-25 had analogues in the world: the Mig-31, U-2 and the Sr-71. No others. Why? Because the Mig-25 is an high supersonic, stratospheric interceptor (18.000 - 30.000 m), born for the B-58 and XB-70. The other aircrafts can reach the stratosphere, but then they have to go down. On the contrary, the stratosphere (no pressure, no oxygen for the engines, T -60°C) is the normal flight level for the mig-25 (and U2).
    Could the Mig-25 reach M3 speed? I do not have sources, but, afaik, yes. Easily. So easily that it required a computer control of the flight, in order not to  exceed the aircraft's limits. What limits? Aerodynamic controllability, engines, airframe overheating; in this order. And the aircraft controllability started giving problems long before the engines. The airframe overheating can reduce the airframe strength and G-tolerance (but in a high supersonic interception the G-limit of the combat is about 1-2,5G), or the canopy ability to contain the pressurized cockpit. So, the first problems are the aerodynamic control and the engines. But many Mig-25 exceeded M 2,83 and also M 3 without problems. The problem was that, afaik, if there was not a good reason to exceed the limits, the pilot could have disciplinary problems.
    Needed a M3 speed or more? In a correct interception, afaik, no. Why?
    Because the majority of the interceptions with the Mig-25 were in front of the target, with a very fast, closing in target.
    And from the rear emisphere of the target? There were some limitations, due to the target's speed, so, from behind the maximum target speed had to be Mach 2,5.
    There was a time limit at M 2,83 speed or more? Yes, few minutes and then you have to slow down, cooling engines and airframe for a minute or more and then restart at high speed, but this argument has only a theoretical value. Because at the Mig-25's speed, in five minutes, you did about 250 Km or more; so in this way, or the interception was correct from the her start, or not only the target is lost and it is useless to slow down, cooling and restart, but you do not have longer fuel for to back home with the Mig-25. So, all with the computer control. To chase a stratospheric target is not so simple. And there is not dogfight, like at lower altitudes, where the atmosphere is different.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:03 am

    Yup ~10% less still you need fly more than 1,000km/h though. BTW what makes MiG-1.44 with projected top speed ~3150 km/s a Ma 3 machine

    Projected probably required the 18 ton thrust engines from Saturn... which might or might not ever exist.

    On the contrary, the stratosphere (no pressure, no oxygen for the engines, T -60°C) is the normal flight level for the mig-25 (and U2).

    Not strictly true... there is very thin air at that altitude and you would need enormous lungs and a very high breathing rate to get enough oxygen to breath properly... fortunately for jet aircraft the volume of air flowing through them at that altitude means sufficient air for the pilot to breathe can be provided by a combination of the air flowing through the engines and onboard o2 supplies.

    Could the Mig-25 reach M3 speed? I do not have sources, but, afaik, yes. Easily. So easily that it required a computer control of the flight, in order not to exceed the aircraft's limits.

    The limits for both the MiG-31 and MiG-25 in terms of top speed are engine related. Both are made primarily of stainless steel, though the MiG-31 have a lot of titanium in them as well in areas that get hot like leading edges etc.

    The main problem is with the rotational speed of the turbojet engines when the flight speed exceeds mach 2.83.

    Overheating the turbine blades makes them lose strength and shape... which basically trashes the engines.

    The only aircraft to fly regularly at more than Mach 3 is the SR-71 which uses bypass air from the turbofan engines like a ramjet engine at high speed. the turbojets produce almost not forward thrust when the aircraft is flying at full speed so turbine blade integrity is not an issue. For the MiG-25 and MiG-31 they main propulsion is from turbojet and turbofan engines respectively.

    For a moment I would love to think about a MiG-25 with a MiG-31s engines... there were plans for this but they never eventuated... the MiG-25 has 11 ton thrust engines, while the MiG-31 has 15 tons thrust engines... the performance of the MiG-25 would have been interesting... but it already accelerated relatively quickly and handled well at high altitudes with its large control surfaces.

    What limits? Aerodynamic controllability, engines, airframe overheating; in this order. And the aircraft controllability started giving problems long before the engines. The airframe overheating can reduce the airframe strength and G-tolerance (but in a high supersonic interception the G-limit of the combat is about 1-2,5G), or the canopy ability to contain the pressurized cockpit. So, the first problems are the aerodynamic control and the engines. But many Mig-25 exceeded M 2,83 and also M 3 without problems. The problem was that, afaik, if there was not a good reason to exceed the limits, the pilot could have disciplinary problems.

    Different speeds can be achieved for different periods... the MiG-31 could fly indefinitely at mach 2.4, and could spend 20 minutes at mach 2.6 and 5 minutes at mach 2.83 because of engine temperatures.

    the disciplinary action against pilots was because of the cost of new engines...

    Needed the M3 speed? In a correct interception, afaik, no. Why? Because the majority of the interceptions with the Mig-25 were in front of the target, with the target closing in.
    And from the rear emisphere of the target? There were some limitations, due to the target's speed, so, from behind the maximum target speed had to be Mach 2,5.

    Ideally, but it all depends on where the target is coming from and where it is going... the MiGs will try to get in front of the targets to fire their missiles but when the target is not heading towards their airfield they might not get that option... high speed and high altitude improves missile performance and increases effective missile kill envelope so climb and acceleration is always part of a long range AAM missile attack.


    Needed the M3 speed? In a correct interception, afaik, no. Why? Because the majority of the interceptions with the Mig-25 were in front of the target, with the target closing in.

    The only target where a MiG-25 would be really tested is an SR-71, but when the SR-71 is moving at full speed then IR guided AAMs should be the most effective way of dealing with the threat. SARH would also be very useful for a head on shot so it would be likely that the IR missile would be fired first followed by the SARH missile. Unlike in computer games firing all missiles at once is pointless with the AA-6 missiles because the IR missiles might lock onto the SARH missiles and of course if the target evades the SARH missile then it will likely evade them both, so firing an IR guided missile then a SARH missile increases the chance of hit while retaining the chance of a second two missile salvo before the target blasts past.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:41 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Yup ~10% less still you need fly more than 1,000km/h though. BTW what makes MiG-1.44 with projected top speed ~3150 km/s a Ma 3 machine
    Projected probably required the 18 ton thrust engines from Saturn... which might or might not ever exist.


    That´s why I mentioned projected not achieved. Nonetheless if MiG 1,44 was the chosen one (not  Sukhoi design) as PAK FA then proper engines surely would be  build




    GarryB wrote:
    Needed the M3 speed? In a correct interception, afaik, no. Why? Because the majority of the interceptions with the Mig-25 were in front of the target, with the target closing in.
    And from the rear emisphere of the target? There were some limitations, due to the target's speed, so, from behind the maximum target speed had to be Mach 2,5.

    Ideally, but it all depends on where the target is coming from and where it is going... the MiGs will try to get in front of the targets to fire their missiles but when the target is not heading towards their airfield they might not get that option... high speed and high altitude improves missile performance and increases effective missile kill envelope so climb and acceleration is always part of a long range AAM missile attack.


    Needed the M3 speed? In a correct interception, afaik, no. Why? Because the majority of the interceptions with the Mig-25 were in front of the target, with the target closing in.



    This discussion sounds interesting  especially in Light of MiG-41... Ma 4+ fighter (almost 5000 km/h). Seems like interceptor speed is utmost important especially in vast terirtory of Russia to intercept incoming threat as far as possible from own bases.
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    Post  Giulio Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:19 pm

    Afaik, the interception range from the ground decreases with the altitude and the speed of the target. For this reason the Mig25 had outstanding capabilities in climb, acceleration and top speed. In a ground controlled interception the Mig-25 took off and climb with full afterburner, then a maximum acceleration phase up to the maximum speed in level flight, a second climb phase with the maximum speed and then acquisition and missile launch. With a correct ground radar warning, the interception range in those conditions was about 1000 km, but, for very high altitude and high speed targets, this range could decrease until 400 or 300 Km (starting from the ground). For this reason the air defenses of a Country are arranged in concentric rings, in succession.
    So it needs an airborne radar and an airborne patrol, with a long range interceptor and in flight refueling capability. In this way you start already in the air and you avoid the first two phases with afterburner (takeoff and climb). It means a time saving and the possibility to greatly increase the interception range (because you are already in flight, with awacs and air tankers).
    For the B-58 and the XB-70 they thought the Mig-25. In the stratosphere.
    I think that now we are in front of a new generation of weapons, in a new atmosphere region, above the stratosphere. The M-4 speed or more, I THINK, it is not for big territories, but for the combat against very high supersonic (or hypersonic?) weapons, at an altitude between 30,000 and 100,000 (suborbital) meters. A new generation of fighters and missiles in a new region, beneath the Space.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:36 am

    That´s why I mentioned projected not achieved. Nonetheless if MiG 1,44 was the chosen one (not Sukhoi design) as PAK FA then proper engines surely would be build

    The problem is cost and was pretty much shown in the Tu-22M family of fast bombers... the T-4 was supposed to be a mach 3 bomber, but the cost and complication made it a failure... the more so because it was found that even at mach 3 a bomber would not be safe in enemy airspace.

    I would suggest the same for a 5th gen fighter... the IR signature alone would make it very non stealthy, and while such a high speed would make it a difficult target for enemy aircraft it would be useless as a dogfighter and would burn a lot of fuel getting up to that speed.

    Mach 3 with turbojet engines is expensive and difficult and I doubt they would even bother for a multirole fighter/bomber.

    For an interceptor then very high speed is a huge advantage... detecting incoming bombers and flying out at mach 4.5 means you can intercept the enemy at much bigger ranges away from your territory giving you more time to shoot down threats and the ability to return home and rearm for another attack.

    Seems like interceptor speed is utmost important especially in vast terirtory of Russia to intercept incoming threat as far as possible from own bases.

    If a MiG-41 based in the north can get to B-52s before they launch it means one AAM kills a bomber and more than a dozen cruise missiles with one hit, and they can probably return to base to rearm and search for any leaking cruise missiles that might have snuck through.

    I think that now we are in front of a new generation of weapons, in a new atmosphere region, above the stratosphere. The M-4 speed or more, I THINK, it is not for big territories, but for the combat against very high supersonic (or hypersonic?) weapons, at an altitude between 30,000 and 100,000 (suborbital) meters. A new generation of fighters and missiles in a new region, beneath the Space.

    Very high speed allows the interceptor to get into attack position faster and earlier and to cover more air space.

    I rather suspect the MiG-41 will have a new missile... based on the S-500 and with an air launch at mach 4 at high altitude I would suspect satellites would be in danger from this pairing...

    I just wonder what sort of operational altitude the MiG-41 could achieve...
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    Post  franco Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:08 pm

    Operations in Syria reveal minor technological glitches in the new Su-34 and Su-35S's. Better to find them now;

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160327/1037039268/russian-jets-syrian-campaign.html
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:02 pm

    franco wrote:Operations in Syria reveal minor technological glitches in the new Su-34 and Su-35S's. Better to find them now;

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160327/1037039268/russian-jets-syrian-campaign.html

    Nice pro-MiG advertising.

    It seems that the engine issues are being implied as being related to the dust ingestion, and I think that's the case. The anti-FOD system on Su-27 related aircraft is not very dustproof. However, those on MiG-29 (not MiG-29OVT and the original MiG-29M and MiG-29M which use the Sukhoi type of anti-FOD systems) and Yak-130 related aircraft are dustproof.
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    Post  Austin Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:35 pm

    Russian Aerospace Procurement Falls As Currency Weakens

    http://aviationweek.com/defense/russian-aerospace-procurement-falls-currency-weakens
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:04 pm

    That's a stupid article. Currency exchange has nothing to do with how much a plane costs for Russia. The Su-35 as example costs less now than it did 2 years ago cause of exchange rate but costs the same for Russia now in Rubles. Also, procurement wasn't touched either so the money is the same in rubles terms.

    What a garbage article. They procure certain % of planes, must be X reason. Wow, aviation week sounds desperate for tales.
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    Post  franco Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:26 pm

    Austin wrote:Russian Aerospace Procurement Falls As Currency Weakens

    http://aviationweek.com/defense/russian-aerospace-procurement-falls-currency-weakens

    Or perhaps the aircraft numbers were higher at the start due their being ready for production while as they slow down in numbers, the next big push will be in new class Armored Vehicles.
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    Post  Austin Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:40 am

    Take-off magazine in March 2016 , special edition for FIDAE 2016

    http://en.take-off.ru/component/content/article/92-current/431-current
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    Post  Guest Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:16 pm

    Right An-26 engine caught fire during takeoff on Rostov-on-Don airport:

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    Post  Vann7 Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:21 am

    SU 30SM nice fly by fly video.




    acrobatics go pro in mig-29 and su-27



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    Post  franco Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:45 am

    No Russian Air Base for Belarus At the Present

    The question of placing on the territory of Belarus, the Russian military air base is not necessary, but the republic did not rule out the possibility of returning to the subject - depending on the circumstances, said Friday the head of the Foreign Ministry of Belarus Vladimir Makei.
    In mid-September of last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin instructed the Russian Defense Ministry and Foreign Ministry to hold talks with Minsk and their follow-up to sign an agreement on the establishment of a Russian air base in Belarus. Later, the Belarusian leader Lukashenko said he would not discuss with Russia the issue.
    "If need be, in any case, you can return to this issue, but at this stage, it seems to us that there is no sense to speak on the issue of placement of Russian military bases on the territory of Belarus. As long as the question at this stage is closed. But this does not mean that it will be impossible to return if the relevant circumstances change, and we will have to make some appropriate response, "- said Mackay.
    In November, head of operational management of the main command of air and space forces of Russia Alexander Lyapkin said that the project to create a Russian airbase in Belarus involves placing at the airport in Bobruisk Russian aviapodrazdeleniya of 12 combat aircraft and 4 military transport helicopters.

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    Post  jaguar_br Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:22 am

    Why don't Russian air Force is used to cover it's fighters at the air bases, leaving them at snow, rain and sun ?

    I think something like this could protect fine materials (such as RAM coverings or optical sensors...) giving longer useful life...

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:38 am

    They have other type of shelters like seen with Yak-130's as an example.  Russian jets seem to operate quite fine even without shelters.  Not like they don't have shelters, but a lack of it in terms of total numbers.

    franco wrote:No Russian Air Base for Belarus At the Present

    The question of placing on the territory of Belarus, the Russian military air base is not necessary, but the republic did not rule out the possibility of returning to the subject - depending on the circumstances, said Friday the head of the Foreign Ministry of Belarus Vladimir Makei.
    In mid-September of last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin instructed the Russian Defense Ministry and Foreign Ministry to hold talks with Minsk and their follow-up to sign an agreement on the establishment of a Russian air base in Belarus. Later, the Belarusian leader Lukashenko said he would not discuss with Russia the issue.
    "If need be, in any case, you can return to this issue, but at this stage, it seems to us that there is no sense to speak on the issue of placement of Russian military bases on the territory of Belarus. As long as the question at this stage is closed. But this does not mean that it will be impossible to return if the relevant circumstances change, and we will have to make some appropriate response, "- said Mackay.
    In November, head of operational management of the main command of air and space forces of Russia Alexander Lyapkin said that the project to create a Russian airbase in Belarus involves placing at the airport in Bobruisk Russian aviapodrazdeleniya of 12 combat aircraft and 4 military transport helicopters.


    Currently this makes sense. It would end up being another wasteful dump in cash for Russia. And it will just create unnecessary risks from the west regarding it due to them trying hard to pressure Belarus. Of course they give hints that it can be returned to the talks of it, and that is obvious, since Belarus may see potential issues in the future that will require it due to EU and US meddling. But at present time, not needed. Instead, better jets for Belarus. Good thing they are opting for Su-30's.
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    Post  medo Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:40 am

    Problem is, that Russia have many old concrete shelters built for MiG-21 and MiG-23 fighters and they are too small for big Flankers. Domna air base have enough shelters, but they are too small for Su-30SM, but they are big enough for Su-25.

    Russia now start to build similar light shelters for their jets and helicopters with modernization of their air bases. You could see them here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4629p450-vvs-russian-air-force-news-2
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    Post  Guest Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:18 pm

    "India Is Out, But Russia Continues Developing Il-214 Transport

    The Russian government will fund development of the Ilyushin Il-214 medium airlifter and production of about a hundred such aircraft for the Russian Air and Space Force (VKS), according to industry sources close to the program. Allocations for procurement will be provided in the Kremlin's new Armament Program after 2020, following the current program timed for 2010-2020. The Il-214 is, effectively, a version of the Indo-Russian Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA). Moscow and New Delhi signed a government-to-government agreement for the MTA in 2007. This was followed three years later by a co-development agreement at the industry level. A newly established Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd. (MTAL) company based in Bangalore made its first appearance at airshows with a stand at AeroIndia 2010.

    The development costs were previously estimated at $600 million, and were to be covered by both parties on equal terms. Serial examples of the aircraft would cost between $35 and $40 million. The global market for the MTA was forecast at 400 units, including special mission versions for electronic warfare, airborne early warning and control, reconnaissance and patrol and airborne tanker.

    India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and its Russian collaborators signed agreements in 2012 that established a joint team of 150 designers in Moscow and Bangalore. The team started working on MTA documentation in December that year. Shortly thereafter, however, the effort was discontinued over disagreements and misunderstandings. In January, Ilyushin general manager Sergei Velmozhkin told reporters: “As a joint project between Russia and India, this project has been halted.”

    Designers in Moscow, however, continue to develop documentation for the aircraft tailored to VKS requirements. A September 2015 protocol between Russia’s Ministry of Defense and industry calls for completion of Il-214 development.

    “The Indians are very difficult people to do business with,” Ilyushin general designer Nikolai Talikov told AIN. “At first, it looked like they are all set to go, but later they began to hesitate. The two countries considered many options, including joint production of Il-114 and, later, the MTA…In the end, Russia will make this aircraft alone, under the designation Il-214.”

    The Il-214 program is currently at the draft design stage. Documentation for the manufacturing plant—Aviastar, in Ulianovsk—will be prepared after the design house completes similar work on the smaller Il-112V tactical airlifter for production at the VASO plant in Voronezh. According to Talikov, VASO is on track to make an airframe for structural testing this year, followed by a first prototype and its maiden flight in 2017. Subsequently, the Il-214 prototype is planned for completion “around 2020,” Talikov said. Developmental prototypes and early production examples will have twin Aviadvigatel PS-90A1 turbofans, each developing 17.4 tons of thrust. These will later be replaced by the more advanced PD-14M producing 18 tons of thrust.

    The current work schedule and engine choice are markedly different from earlier ones. Under agreements signed in 2007-2010, the MTA was to make its maiden flight between 2016 and 2018. It was to be powered by CFM International CFM56 or IAE V2500 turbofans, as these were favored above Russian and Ukrainian options to power 45 deliverable aircraft for the Indian air force.

    The most recent information on MTA/Il-214 performance and specification metrics available from Russian industry sites specify a maximum takeoff weight of 68 metric tons (149,912 pounds), maximum payload of 20 metric tons (44,092 pounds)and runway length at 1,600 m to 1,800 m (5,250 to 6,000 feet). Design targets include transportation of a 20-ton payload to 2,250 km (1,214 nm) and 10-ton payload to 6,400 km (3,454 nm) at a cruise speed of 437 ktas. The aircraft’s service life will be 35 years and 30,000 flight hours. Outwardly, the Il-214 resembles a classic twinjet with T-shaped empennage and two high-bypass turbofan engines on underwing pylons. The cabin cross section (with fuselage diameter of about 16 feet) is similar to the much heavier Il-76 four-engine transport. The Il-214 will be able to accommodate two standard army trucks or five airline containers. In a single-deck layout, the aircraft would accommodate 70 to 82 paratroopers; a double-decker would carry up to 150.

    The crew station is modeled after that of the Il-476 and features six multifunction displays and two head-up displays. Takeoff and landing operations can be made using both paved and unpaved runways, in hot-and-high environments, and during day or night conditions."


    Source: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-04-11/india-out-russia-continues-developing-il-214-transport
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:54 pm

    So seems an SU-24 flew within 30 feet of a US DD with apparently violates a treaty earlier today

    Article is on military times. If that true that and very reckless behavior and the DD could claim a legal shot down if it felt threatened.
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    Post  Guest Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:01 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:So seems an SU-24 flew within 30 feet of a US DD with apparently violates a treaty earlier today

    Article is on military times. If that true that and very reckless behavior and the DD could claim a legal shot down if it felt threatened.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:05 pm

    Don't really know where to put this but here goes.

    The Su-24 seems to be really attracted to the USS Donald Cook. First there was that business in the Black Sea, now the destroyer has moved to the Baltic it was clearly 'lets say hello' time again.

    This is one of the stills and a couple of the videos from the link. Much more info there.

    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2 - Page 10 Cf8lE2xUsAAGOvB


    http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=94170



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    Post  JohninMK Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:20 pm

    Don't really know where to put this so put it in the VVS video thread.

    Haven't put the video links in here that I put there as they are included in the combo video above.

    The Su-24 seems to be really attracted to the USS Donald Cook. First there was that business in the Black Sea, now the destroyer has moved to the Baltic it was clearly 'lets say hello' time again. Don't know about dangerous flying but it looked like an excellent inpromptu training opportunity for the USN so they shouldn't be whingeing about it.

    This is one of the stills and a couple of the videos from the link. Much more info there.

    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2 - Page 10 Web_160412-N-ZZ999-005

    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2 - Page 10 Web_160412-N-ZZ999-003

    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2 - Page 10 Web_160412-N-ZZ999-008


    http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=94170
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    Post  franco Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:55 pm

    Doesn't that first photo make the Su-24 look like a great white shark on the prowl for a meal? ^^^^^^^^^^^^
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    Post  crod Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:45 am

    similar footage can be found here.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-14/russia-jets-make-simulated-attack-passes-near-us-destroyer/7324994

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