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    Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News #2

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:00 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Seriously ?! You are just like Alamo. Even when I provide proof you close your eyes and say "your opinion". lol1

    Proof requires evidence backed up by source on which you rely on to make claims.

    I haven't seen a single source you have posted to backup your claims, yet, you constantly rely on RCS as one of your main argumentative points. A marketing point I might add.

    ...yet all his claims has been proved wrong from the very beginning.
    No, Su-34 does not have a mechanical steered radar, but PESA.
    No, Iskander is not lacking the accuracy, we have multiple materials where it just hits bullseye, including moving!! targets. The SINGLE photo presented as a proof of lacking the accuracy is obviously an end effect of artillery barrage, and most probably a rocket artillery one.
    No, Su-34 is not afraid of penetrating the theatre of operation. We have multiple materials where it is being used as a bomb truck, Using ODAB, OFAB, FAB, S-24 unguided rockets, Ch-29 missiles that tell us it was in the max range of 30 km from the target. We have multiple materials of it carrying&using Ch-31, Ch-59, a whole variety of ordnance.
    No, it's RCS, no matter how faked and figured, won't be relevant to "ARH missiles", as Ukrs does not have any of those, because no SAM or A2A missiles in their arsenal use active radar homing heads.
    Panic mode of how they lost "half of division" fact-checked turns out to be 25%, not lost but hit (most probably), without a single human life lost, in 8 months, with thousands of sorties, and applies to a whole 6 planes at the very end.
    And we can like that all day long, but it won't make any difference to him.
    I guess he hardly absorbs any facts, if a fact denies the theories - it is even worse for the fact itself!
    A totally useless dialogue companion I would say.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:26 pm

    i didnt expect that Su-34 would create so much conflict in the forum

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    Post  Werewolf Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:49 pm

    George1 wrote:i didnt expect that Su-34 would create so much conflict in the forum

    It's just one guy hating and lying to convince himself by his own lies.

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    Post  Isos Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:59 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Seriously ?! You are just like Alamo. Even when I provide proof you close your eyes and say "your opinion". lol1

    Proof requires evidence backed up by source on which you rely on to make claims.

    I haven't seen a single source you have posted to backup your claims, yet, you constantly rely on RCS as one of your main argumentative points. A marketing point I might add.

    Dassault official statements, sukhoi official statemebt, satellites pictures, pro russian telegram accounts with links with people on the front, video of su-34 flying low only on the front, pictures of su-34...

    Those are sources. It's just they don't suit your opinion so you choose to ignore them and say they are fake.

    Then if the su-34 is so used bring evidences. Because ukrainian are filming everything even kalibr missiles above their territory. We saw very few footages of su-34 and none above ukraine. They mostly fly above russian forces and russian controled areas at very low altitude. Find at least one video of it above Lviv where all the nato equipement is comming or Kiev where there are plenty of targets.
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:47 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Dassault official statements, sukhoi official statemebt, satellites pictures, pro russian telegram accounts with links with people on the front, ...

    Official statements of 0.5m² RCS? And that is not marketing? They have no interest to sell their product?
    RCS figures are 90% marketing and wouldn't be disclosed so easily. You are just refuting that this RCS figures are worthless for argumentation as they are not achievable against ground based radars and from all angles. You are like abortion supporters bringing up always "What if the women was impregnated by rape", ignoring that this makes less than 1% of all abortion reasons.
    This RCS figure is worthless, but you would never admit that.

    Sukhoi statements of what exactly?
    Source, link and direct source only and not the stuff you made up in your head.

    Satellite pictures?
    Who made them?
    Who claimed those were Iskanders? Where is the proof those were Iskanders? You lack brain if you believe Russia wastes half a dozen Iskanders on one airfield in 404 while all the other targets were always ammo depots, railways, power plants, bunkers, radars, SAMs, command centers, SBU HQs, training centers and so on. Not a single time they fired Iskanders on a fucking paved runway. Not once! You are just believing what you or people like you made up in a full blown propaganda war against everyone living in the West.

    Post me the source who claimed those were iskanders!

    Saying "Pro-russian TG channels"...do you speak Russian?
    Do you have the slightest idea how many Ukrops are pretending to be Russian and Pro-Russian to spread disinformation?

    We have One here on this very forum under the name of Arky, the Doomer, who outed himself because he started talking about Soloviev, Skabeeva and used phrases only Ukrops use. Anyone who is Russian and active on Social Media has seen or experienced such people. This propaganda war has absolutely no examples through out history. Even Nazi Germany had less Propaganda spewed than the Kokainum and the Empire of Lies.

    Isos wrote:...
    video of su-34 flying low only on the front, pictures of su-34...
    hey mostly fly above russian forces and russian controled areas at very low altitude. Find at least one video of it above Lviv where all the nato equipement is comming or Kiev where there are plenty of targets.
    Ha ha ha.
    First your sorry ass said it's garbage because it only throws ODAB/OFAB bombs and get's shot down. Now your sorry ass is complaining they are not at the frontline. They are shooting STAND-OFF ASMs all the fucking time. What is your qualification to judge or declare what is the most effective way to use a weapons system in an unprecedented level of conflict?

    I called you out first time a few pages back and I can happily do it again. You are the type of person who would use aircrafts in a manner like the Ukrops do for a few Twatter propaganda footages. How does this garbage tactic works out for Ukropia? Suicide missions. Congrats and now sit down Arms Chair General No. 36599

    Unless you bring links and sources for my requested questions I am not willing to waste my time any more on your Ukropian infested propaganda wishes.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:37 pm

    Rafale has never fought an IADS

    Especially like Ukrainian IADS,

    Su34 has demonstrated its role, and did much better than F15 or F18 losing several tens in Iraq wars

    Rafale remains untested

    You cannot compare virtual jamming of a Slovakian S300 with the suppression of the 1000km frontline stuffed with S300, Buks, Tor, OSA, Starstreak,  NASAMS

    Su34 engages in the most fortified IADS in the entire world, after Russia

    Su34 should not be used at a low altitude CAS aircraft, but that's an entirely different matter to do with tactics then with capability of the aircraft and crew

    As for losses 6 or 7 Su34 lost to optically guided BUK missiles,  or MANPADS, is not had, especially considering live update given to the air defense crews from E2C , and from MQ Reapers over the Black Sea

    Please do not come with bullshit especially if it comes from Rob Lee and Michael Kofman

    ----

    Meanwhile in Burkina Faso, Rafale does nothing to stop Wagner from kicking Le grand Armee from Mali, Niger, and the sahel

    I guess Barkhane was a failure, SU34 not needed.

    Maybe rafale can jam the Algerian buk when the gas runs out

    Then we can really discuss rafale

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    Post  Robert.V Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:50 pm

    Those could have very well been Iskandars as Russia had bought  Iskandars without the optical head.   Original Iskandar was just Inertial guidance with may or may not had option for optical head.  Later variant of Iskandar had  Inertial guidance with  sat guidance's and or optional optical or radar head.


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    Post  Mir Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:21 pm

    Robert.V wrote:Those could have very well been Iskandars as Russia had bought  Iskandars without the optical head.   Original Iskandar was just Inertial guidance with may or may not had option for optical head.  Later variant  of Iskandar had  Inertial guidance with  sat guidance's and or optional optical or radar head.

    Not too sure about that as even the Iskander E was offered with both inertial and optical guidance way back in early 2000?

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:30 pm

    .. yet 40 posts in 12 years do impress, agree?

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    Post  Robert.V Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:03 pm

    Mir wrote:

    Not too sure about that as even the Iskander E was offered with both inertial and optical guidance way back in early 2000?

    Inertial is standard.(Obviously).  Optical head was optional.  And it's not clear if Optical head was  even the option in case for original Iskandar's at least not in Russian service as I have never seen ones in service.

    It's obviously though newer Iskandar-M's in Russian services have optical or radar head as they have been obviously used in Ukraine taking out moving targets. How many those Russia has is anyone's guess.
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    Post  Mir Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:02 pm

    Robert.V wrote:
    Inertial is standard.(Obviously).    Optical head was optional.  And it's not clear if Optical head   was  even the option in case for original Iskandar's at least not in Russian service as I have never seen ones in service.

    It's obviously though newer Iskandar-M's in Russian services have optical or radar head as they have been obviously used in Ukraine taking out moving targets. How many those Russia has is anyone's guess.

    The Iskander was developed during Soviet times but the program was heavily effected by the demise of the USSR and only entered Russian service in 2005 as the Iskander-M which is a much improved version of the Iskander-E. Iskander-E was offered on the export market well before 2005 and that version had optical guidance. Btw so did the Tochka and Oca missile systems.

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    Post  Robert.V Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:15 pm

    Again, there is no indication that original  Iskander had a optical head. Certainly I've yet to see one with a optical head in Russian service, even whatever it was an option or not. Its quite obvious it was never purchased.



    Mir wrote:
    I Btw so did the Tochka and Oca missile systems.

    No, Tochka never had a optical head.    Oka never had it either.     Oka-M would have had one. But that never saw the light of day since it was cancelled along with Oka.[/quote]
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:18 pm

    Mir wrote:
    The Iskander was developed during Soviet times but the program was heavily effected by the demise of the USSR and only entered Russian service in 2005 as the Iskander-M which is a much improved version of the Iskander-E. Iskander-E was offered on the export market well before 2005 and that version had optical guidance. Btw so did the Tochka and Oca missile systems.

    Iskander is nothing else than the follow-up of the modernization program carried out for the Oka system.
    Oka-U was created in the 80s, and was ready for field tests back in 1989, while its carrier in 1987.
    The main difference with the base Oka was a corrected flightpath at the entire trajectory, and multiple sources of targeting data provided, including A-50. The warhead was separable and could aim itself at any target, including the moving one.
    The prototypes ready for testing were destroyed along with all Oka systems due to the stupidity of Gorbi, yet we have been left with one very interesting info after.
    Remaining 9M714 rockets of the Oka system were considered for different purposes, including low earth orbit scientific projects, but the one was both bizarre and interesting.
    They have proposed a modification of it, to become a fast carrier of life-saving cargo - a rocket with decreased "warhead" called "cargo" part was considered to be able to fly as far as 900 km in 400s, delivering 200+ kg cargo.

    Robert.V wrote:Again, there is no indication that original  Iskander had a optical head. Certainly I've yet to see one with a optical head in Russian service, even whatever it was an option or not. Its quite obvious it was never purchased.

    But of course it did, as that was a part of Oka-U program.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:23 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:Su34 has demonstrated its role, and did much better than F15 or F18 losing several tens in Iraq wars
    Only 2 F-15s were shot down, both by by Iraqi AAA/SAM, & 1 F-18 by a MiG-25.
    On 28 February 2022, footage emerged reportedly showing Su-34s overflying the Kharkiv region of Ukraine.
    Footage of at least one of the jets overflying the Kharkiv region was posted online, with the person taking the footage noting that at least seven such aircraft had already flown overhead by the time he began filming.

    In various regions of Ukraine, downed Su-34 aircraft were mostly shot down by Ukrainian forces but some crashed for other reasons. Another was a modernized variant Su-34M and was reportedly shot down by Russian forces. ..
    As of 18 July 2022, Russia had lost 11 Su-34 aircraft over Ukraine since the beginning of the invasion 5 months earlier. That was nearly 10% of all that had been built... As of 30 September, the total number of Russian Su-34s lost in Ukraine had grown to 14.
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:26 pm

    Make it 20, for easy calculations Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  lancelot Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:05 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:As of 18 July 2022, Russia had lost 11 Su-34 aircraft over Ukraine since the beginning of the invasion 5 months earlier. That was nearly 10% of all that had been built...
    So what. They are losing less Su-34 aircraft in a year than they can build in a year if they want to.

    I think the possible loss of pilots is more important than the loss of these aircraft.

    And aircraft with MAWS like the Su-35 seems to be having much less losses.

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:03 am

    Robert.V wrote:Again, there is no indication that original  Iskander had a optical head. Certainly I've yet to see one with a optical head in Russian service, even whatever it was an option or not. Its quite obvious it was never purchased.

    If the Iskander didn't have an optical head, then how to explain its commonly cited capabilities of being able to match contrasts and even shapes to correct course to its programmed target during the terminal stage of its trajectory?

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    Post  Mir Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:07 am

    Robert.V wrote:
    No, Tochka never had a optical head.    Oka never had it either.     Oka-M would have had one. But that never saw the light of day since it was cancelled along with Oka.

    Suffered a bit of a power outage here before I could properly answer you...Anyway you're quite right about the Tochka - only inertial guidance. The Oka also had TERCOM.

    As Alamo pointed out the Iskander was a development from the Oka-U which already featured optical guidance and as I've also as mentioned the Iskander-E was offered on the export market long before the Iskander-M entered service with the Russians which also featured optical guidance.

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    Post  Robert.V Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:28 am

    flamming_python wrote:

    If the Iskander didn't have an optical head, then how to explain its commonly cited capabilities of being able to match contrasts and even shapes to correct course to its programmed target during the terminal stage of its trajectory?

    Cited for the optical optional head   ...which we know  Iskandar-M can have along with optional radar head.   Whatever original Iskandars for Russian service had that capability to have it as a option is another question altogether. Artjomh (Whom i'm sure you remember)   from MP.net days doubted it my own source also.  But even if it did. It's never been seen in service.    Actually not even  Iskandar-M was ever seen in service with an optical head.

    Radar head however been rumored to have been purchased.  So my bet is it's probably the radar head is what we have seen.  The CEP would indicate that also judging some of the precision and catching targets on the move.   Though I wouldn't rule out the optical head one either  or  use of mix of both.


    But that airfield attack it looked to  accurate for Tochka and to inaccurate for later Iskandar-M's let alone for  ones equipped with radar or optical heads.    I take it they used the older variants   ..assuming of course it was impacts of ballistic missiles.  Which to me they look like it.


    Mir wrote:
    As Alamo pointed out the Iskander was a development from the Oka-U which already featured optical guidance and as I've also as mentioned the Iskander-E was offered on the export market long before the Iskander-M entered service with the Russians which also featured optical guidance.

    Iskandar has its lineage from 9k716 Volga. It's radar head is derived from that work. Volga itself though draws it's lineage from Oka. So in a way he's right.

    I know about Iskander-E. And that's certainly a fair and good point.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 16, 2022 7:47 am

    Dassault official statements, sukhoi official statemebt, satellites pictures,

    For all we know that satellite picture could have been of Libya and showing the bombing precision of the Rafale. Razz

    pro russian telegram accounts with links with people on the front,

    People on the front line would have no idea what is flying around the place most of the time. Plenty of people pretending to be pro Russian likely getting paid by the west... deep pockets you know.

    video of su-34 flying low only on the front,

    Video of high altitude launches of weapons proves they are not only flying low... by the way the low altitude launch range of the laser homing Kh-29 is rather less than 10km.

    pictures of su-34...

    Photos of Su-34s loaded up with weapons with hand written notes to specific relevant people based on events that are happening in Ukraine so not from an airshow.

    Those are sources. It's just they don't suit your opinion so you choose to ignore them and say they are fake.

    Those sources are not relevant because they only pertain to RCS which is meaningless...

    Official statements of 0.5m² RCS? And that is not marketing? They have no interest to sell their product?
    RCS figures are 90% marketing and wouldn't be disclosed so easily.

    The obvious other factor is RCS in X band and Ku band frequencies, but not L band frequencies as used on the Su-57 and Su-35.

    Those could have very well been Iskandars as Russia had bought Iskandars without the optical head. Original Iskandar was just Inertial guidance with may or may not had option for optical head. Later variant of Iskandar had Inertial guidance with sat guidance's and or optional optical or radar head.

    There is no version of Iskander with just an inertial guidance system, Iskander is for hitting a range of targets but target coordinates have never been a target as such.

    The early Iskander has an optical seeker, but later they did add radar seeker versions that detects buildings and bridges and other significant structures near a set of coordinates, because they can be used day and night and in all weather conditions. The optically guided missile is day night capable and can hit optically visible targets but can also be directed at hidden targets if there are visible things around the hidden target.
    ie It can hit targets located in relation to other things that are clearly visible.

    The official CEP for the radar version is less than 20m and the official CEP for the optical guidance model is about 7m, but in practise those numbers are two to three times too big.

    From an export catalog from 2002 the export model of Iskander lists the following targets as standard:

    Hostile Fire weapons (Missile Systems, MLRS, long range artillery pieces)

    Air and anti missile defence systems

    Fixed and rotary wing aircraft at airfields

    Command posts and communication nodes

    Critical Civilian infrastructure facilities

    Other vital small and area targets.

    Which suggests if that image is real that each of those impact points was a fighter aircraft or helicopter that has been obliterated by the 650kg payload of the Iskander.

    Again, there is no indication that original Iskander had a optical head. Certainly I've yet to see one with a optical head in Russian service, even whatever it was an option or not. Its quite obvious it was never purchased.

    I would be bloody impressed if you could identify an Iskander with or without an optical head because the optical head is covered with a protective cap during handling and launch and is not released till the missile is approaching the target area where the cover is ejected to protect the optics from insects and dirt... they all look the same.

    No, Tochka never had a optical head. Oka never had it either. Oka-M would have had one. But that never saw the light of day since it was cancelled along with Oka.

    The radar and optical seeker options were used for Iskander in Russian service... depending on the target and weather conditions near the target.

    As of 18 July 2022, Russia had lost 11 Su-34 aircraft over Ukraine since the beginning of the invasion 5 months earlier. That was nearly 10% of all that had been built... As of 30 September, the total number of Russian Su-34s lost in Ukraine had grown to 14.

    Divide by 10 for Wiki propaganda bullshit.

    Perhaps if they did a US-style no-fly zone campaign for a few weeks BEFORE the ground invasion, their losses would be a fraction of what we see now.

    That would just give the Orcs more time to prepare. The fact that the US didn't even try a no fly zone over Syria suggests it does not make sense against better equipped enemies.

    Suffered a bit of a power outage here before I could properly answer you...Anyway you're quite right about the Tochka - only inertial guidance. The Oka also had TERCOM.

    I have a Russian arms catalog that shows the optical guidance system and it is not described as the Iskanders seeker... it is described as an optical seeker for ballistic and tactical theatre missiles.... it is not specifically for the Iskander.

    Cited for the optical optional head ...which we know Iskandar-M can have along with optional radar head. Whatever original Iskandars for Russian service had that capability to have it as a option is another question altogether. Artjomh (Whom i'm sure you remember) from MP.net days doubted it my own source also. But even if it did. It's never been seen in service. Actually not even Iskandar-M was ever seen in service with an optical head.

    There is no option for Iskander that does not have a radar or an optical seeker.... they all use Inertial navigation and shaped flight paths (ie not ballistic) but it needs terminal guidance to hit a target and AFAIK they only use optical or radar seekers.


    But that airfield attack it looked to accurate for Tochka and to inaccurate for later Iskandar-M's let alone for ones equipped with radar or optical heads. I take it they used the older variants ..assuming of course it was impacts of ballistic missiles. Which to me they look like it.

    To determine how accurate it was you need to know what was being targeted...

    In the conflict in Georgia the enemy released footage of fragments and blood stains in a town square reportedly from a Tochka attack... it was later revealed that it was not civilians there... it was soldiers... the warhead used was a submunition warhead.



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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:27 am

    Robert.V wrote:
    Iskandar has its lineage from 9k716 Volga.   It's radar head is derived from that work. Volga itself though draws it's lineage from Oka.  So in a way he's right.
    I know about Iskander-E.  And that's certainly a fair and good point.

    In a way you are right either  Laughing  Laughing
    The whole issue with Wolna was it was two-stage missile.
    It was designed to replace aging Temp-S, and obviously being a spin off of the Oka-U project.
    Both Oka-U/Iskander and Wolna are different theatre missile systems. The type of homing head is just an obvious step of standardization for a whole generation. Wolna was just an Oka-U with the added 2nd stage to get a 1000 km range with a full payload.
    As Garry mentioned, you won't see the differences, as the homing head is activated at the terminal stage only. People who could have seen it won't say a word anymore  Laughing  Laughing
    As Oka-U had an optical homing head and correction throttles just from the beginning and was designed to control it's entire flight path, correct it via different comm channels, and be capable of striking moving targets, all of that features were obvious to the following Iskander.
    That is not rocket science, you know.  
    Oh hell, actually it is  ... Laughing  Wink  Laughing

    GarryB wrote:
    For all we know that satellite picture could have been of Libya and showing the bombing precision of the Rafale.   Razz

    Well, that might be kind of a small probe for statistics, as the mighty Froggy Empire run out of bombs quite soon and need to ask a leach  holder for help Laughing

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Oct 16, 2022 3:24 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Only 2 F-15s were shot down, both by by Iraqi AAA/SAM

    Don't forget 4 F18 lost to mid air collisions , 1 F18 lost to s125, at least 5 , F16 lost to crashes or fire in 2003 alone, 1 F14, 1 F15, 1 Tornado, and assorted fixed wing and many helicopter losses

    Iraq did not have Tor, Buk, S300, OSA, Starstreak, NASAMS, Gepard , or any of that combined with E2 AWACS to give updates , extensive radar network , and replenishment by NATO

    Let us not dig into Yugoslav losses - again without any of the air defense that Ukraine possesses

    The closest to fighting an S300 they came was at red flag

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:33 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Only 2 F-15s were shot down, both by by Iraqi AAA/SAM

    Don't forget 4 F18 lost to mid air collisions , 1 F18 lost to s125, at least 5 , F16 lost to crashes or fire in 2003 alone, 1 F14, 1 F15, 1 Tornado, and assorted fixed wing and many helicopter losses

    Iraq did not have Tor, Buk, S300, OSA, Starstreak, NASAMS, Gepard , or any of that combined with E2 AWACS to give updates , extensive radar network , and replenishment by NATO

    Let us not dig into Yugoslav losses - again without any of the air defense that Ukraine possesses

    The closest to fighting an S300 they came was at red flag

    But US flew in Iraq and sent massive waves of jets to attack targets all over iraq.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:35 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Only 2 F-15s were shot down, both by by Iraqi AAA/SAM

    Don't forget 4 F18 lost to mid air collisions , 1 F18 lost to s125, at least 5 , F16 lost to crashes or fire in 2003 alone, 1 F14, 1 F15, 1 Tornado, and assorted fixed wing and many helicopter losses

    Iraq did not have Tor, Buk, S300, OSA, Starstreak, NASAMS, Gepard , or any of that combined with E2 AWACS to give updates , extensive radar network , and replenishment by NATO

    Let us not dig into Yugoslav losses - again without any of the air defense that Ukraine possesses

    The closest to fighting an S300 they came was at red flag

    Iraq didn't even have Osa's??
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 16, 2022 6:43 pm

    They did.
    Took down some 109s, but we talk about some 12 pieces or something dunno
    Irrelevant to the scale of a campaign.
    Remember that Iraq was a friend to the US and west for a while already.
    The good, looming time when they get the fancy stuff from the Soviet Union were gone in the beginning of the 80s.

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