Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

Russia could just remove India from her list of prospective customers.

They could, but why would they?

Now that the war in Ukraine has taken out Kiev as competition for support contracts for Soviet material and most of eastern europe has just been drained of ammo and material of the Soviet period and will now transition to making western shit, Russia is in a very good position to make good money selling weapons and ammo and equipment to support their older catalogue of products to the world that still wants them (because they are simple and reliable and cheap).

Russia makes weapons, and India needs weapons... the only places that would be overjoyed at Russia turning its back on India would be the west, which just shows what a stupid idea it would be.

Bad for Russia and bad for India too.

Not sever relations with India. What I mean is Russia should carry out these projects without looking at India as a prospective buyer.

This aircraft programme seems to be in conjunction with UAE and not India just yet, but if the specs and numbers pan out India would be stupid to ignore such an aircraft... they probably can't make Tegas for the price they could buy Checkmate for and Tegas is not a 5th gen stealth fighter.

I agree that Russia should not design and make weapons and equipment that rely on India buying them to make them viable but this is clearly not the case and it wasn't the case with the Su-57 either despite most western organisations trying to suggest the reason Russia could afford a 5th gen fighter was because India was funding it.

Indias programme was totally separate from the Russian programme.

They may put down an order for 100 SU57s and suddenly change at the last minute when the US offers them F15EXs for double the money.

You say they might but that does not make it true. There is a pro France faction in the Indian military, but I am not so sure they are so excited about their American kit which is rather expensive.

Algeria will never do this. Nor will Vietnam. Nor will Iran, Angola or Myanmar. These are the countries Russia should prioritize.

You say this too but does that make it true?

Algeria dropped their order of MiG-29SMTs when they got an offer from Sukhoi for Su-30s at the same price, and Iran hasn't got a perfect record with Russia either.

What country would turn down a better offer out of loyalty?

Not many...

Especially when the decisions are normally taken by politicians where bribes come into the equation.

However some of these corrupt politicians are also in love with western equipment for some reasons and like to criticize russian systems instead.

The western propaganda machine runs 24/7 promoting western kit and glossing over its problems and weaknesses, while the complaints about Russian and Soviet equipment come thick and fast and repeated and amplified over and over every chance they get... and even then when fair trade does not work there is economic threats of sanctions like CAATSA etc.

Their mig-29k are slightly older than russian mig-29k. They also don't know how to maintain them.

New builds that incorporate western technology... western propaganda would claim the Indian MiGs should be better than the Russian MiGs.

Their weapons also suck. Export R-77 is really shitty and they don't have rvv-sd or r-37M.

Hahaha.... yes, western propaganda is that their R-77s suck and AMRAAMs are superior despite evidence in combat suggesting otherwise.

They could order RVV-SD and RVV-BD if they wanted them.

R-73 is still world class and R-74 (RVV-MD) is even better.

They need to face chinese carrier groups. A rafale with meteor is way better than their mig-28K with r-77.

Again western propaganda at work... India has no more reason to prepare for war with China than Mexico has reason to prepare for war with the US, or the US has reason to prepare for war with Canada.

Rafale would require cats... the US wont sell their cats technology so India can buy French planes... French carriers use US cat technology don't they?

16 Rafales for a single aircraft carrier would triple the cost of the carrier...

MiG-29KR should be compatible with R-37M and Russia has a habit of selling things to India that they don't sell to anyone else so it might be a 300km range version instead of the normal export 200km range model (compared with the 400km range domestic model... but that is because it is carried by the MiG-31 and is launched at 18-22km altitude at speeds of mach 2.5 plus).

But frankly I suspect Rafale or f-18 to be way worse in terms of maintenance which will make their carriers useless.

The Hornet would be their worst choice because at least they have MiGs and Rafales in service already, but the requirement for cats makes the two western options less appealing and more expensive than they already are.

The problem is Russia is asking India to be a pan handler again but for a different 5th gen program and our nationalistic Indians in india defense net forum will not be too happy that they fear this will kill their AMCA project. I hate it that 5th gen programs start with immediately asking for other countries to go fund it. Don't start any military aircraft project if your country is not willing to go finance it. I am sure we would score contract deals selling Su-75s to India but asking them to go throw billions is just you know already asking for too much.

I think you are missing the point... this is Sukhoi saying they will take their product to this years Aero India defence airshow to present their latest product for export.

It is not a Russian Air Force project, this is something Sukhoi has put together as an export product with UAE... if India wants to buy some or invest then fine, but if they don't that is fine too... there is a good chance that many countries are going to get on board with this aircraft.

Buying a light 5th gen fighter makes sense because it is affordable so investing into it makes sense... a bit like lots of European countries bought F-16s but not so many bought F-15s because they were too expensive to buy in large numbers unless you were a rich country that was showing off.

This new light 5th gen fighter is half the price or less of western 4+ gen fighters and its operational costs appear to be similar to the operational costs of the MiG-21 which means you can buy more and also operate more without breaking the bank.... this is a 5th gen light fighter that is probably cheaper to buy and to operate than many US HALE and MALE type drones!!!!

It hasn't even flown yet... they are showing it around and gauging interest in purchases and production.

Obviously countries making it themselves will spend rather more, but countries wanting cheap fighters could buy off the shelf and get a great deal.

The FGFA program failed for a series of factors and unfortunate events

If you want to make something yourself then you make it more expensive than if you just bought it... if they could have bitten the bullet and just accepted the Russian Su-57 the way it was they might be producing it now at a price where they might have rather a lot entering service and a good return on all their investments.

With the light 5th gen fighter by its very nature of being cheaper and also cheaper to operate, you often want rather more of these so it actually makes more sense to make your own.

For India the best deal might be to buy 200 Su-57s in kit form and assemble them in India with an option for the same again in a couple of years time, but to actually set up for production of the numbers plane... the Su-75 because eventually it is going to replace all their other lighter aircraft, from Tegas, through MiG-21, 27, 29, and also Jaguar and M2K.

They might end up with a fleet of say 400 Su-57s and 5-600 Su-75s with some Su-30s further upgraded and some Rafales for roles where stealth is not needed...

The FGFA died because India wanted a two seat option and they wanted a higher stealth level but were not prepared to pay for the increases in costs that would create.

A naval Su-57 programme means a two seat model will likely be developed anyway so India has cancelled its FGFA project but will likely wait for production two seaters and buy them or licence produce them locally.

The Su-57 program I think if I remember correctly was 8-10 billion dollars with the intention that Inda would have payed half for it.

Your memory is clearly made up of western speculation.

You see the west has the problem if explaining why they spend so much and relatively speaking Russia pays so little while there being no corruption in the west and a much better work ethic and higher production rates in the west because of their superior production and management... all of Europe has failed to produce a 5th gen fighter, the US has managed two but at enormous cost to the economy... the F-35 programme alone cost 1.5 trillion.

The west has the problem of explaining how western sanctions are destroying Russia while at the same time Russia is at the bleeding edge of modern aircraft and aerospace design... new nuclear power cruise missiles, hypersonic scramjet engines, nuclear powered space tugs, etc etc.

Russia delayed their light fighter programme so they could focus funding on their PAK FA programme and that is exactly what they did.

The FGFA programme was with India and they paid peanuts into that and got very little out of it because they decided they didn't want to spend the money needed to make the plane they wanted... they demanded a higher level of stealth and a two seat version but expected Russia to pay for it all.

So the current situation seems to be they will wait till it is in full serial production and then they will buy some and ask for "upgrades"... essentially the same thing they did with the Su-30MKI programme where they bought the off the shelf Su-30MK and integrated French and other components in the design.

The PAK FA programme was always going forward and was always funded and never expected any money from India to complete it.

That is just western bullshit.

Russians know how to plan and prepare... which is why they are not running out of artillery shells and missiles right now... whereas the west in the same situation would be out of everything because they got rid of most of their excess material in storage to save some money, and probably gave themselves nice fat bonuses to celebrate the money they saved, and will be on holiday now if anyone wants to contact them about the current ammo shortage, but of course their excuse will likely be that the old ammo was dangerous and who ever came after them in power should have boosted production to restock the stores.

So how much is the Su-75 program going to cost since it seems the articles I am reading posted here is what they suggest?

How the hell would we know... it would depend on the potential buyers and what they might want... customers like India might demand Israeli or French components be added for their version, but then I would think that would just drive the price up massively and local production would make it not so cheap any more.

Most countries will just buy what Russia sells to them and get a nice cheap but capable fighter aircraft... with a 3,000km flight range it is probably better than most fourth gen fighters... even some of the heavy ones, and inflight refuelling could increase that even further.

Commonality with the Su-57 will make it cheaper and easier to make but you wont need to buy both to get the economic benefits... it seems to be a cheap aircraft to buy and to operate... assuming everything goes to plan.

When the US dollar collapses perhaps we might see some ex HATO countries getting on board.

Of course there will also be a MiG equivalent aircraft too though that might not be for export for a while.

Honestly no one can beat a deal like this to purchase 25-30 million dollars 5th gens with an open architecture if they want their own avionics if they like. I can see them possibly purchasing an order of Su-75s but not them spending 4-5 billion dollars on another program with the addition of purchasing the aircrafts.

If this aircraft can perform to the levels they claim for the price they claim there would be no need for medium and light stealth fighters... this aircraft could directly replace the MiG-21 and be produced in similar numbers and widely used which would make it rather better than most new planes that you can only buy in small numbers because of the costs.

Having one Javelin is nice, but having 5,000 Kornets for the same price... well it simply isn't a question which would be better.

I am already nervous that the 6th gen route will be the same as these last 2 routes.

6th gen is the solution for the west because of their failure with the 5th gen... their 5th gen are so bad they need replacements, but if they can't afford 5th gen how can they afford 6th... or 7th.

Saw these floating around the forums. I cannot say whether they are genuine but very interesting (and lovely, gilding the lily, damn). Second one is of paralay's usual awesome fiddlings. Hope he doesnt mind I post it here. I need this to come to life. Damn.

Edit: first attempt I didnt get both pictures in.

These are drawings and most are not even official drawings...

Just ask those F-16.net fan boys why it is taking so long to get their shit to Ukraine so Russia can rip them a new one.

2-seater is a stealthy remake of the Israeli F-16I 2-seater bomb truck isn't it

In the sense that the F-16 is a copy of the MiG-21 with the air intake moved to the chin area, and the Eurofighter Typhoon is a copy of the Ye-8 prototype of the MiG-21...

so the non-seater is a drone actually

Makes it an expensive drone but most drone in that size range are going to be expensive anyway... and at least with the manned versions you can do all your flight testing with a human on board to feel vibration and feel problems which you often don't get flying it by remote control.

They have had such things in the past like the unmanned Yak-130 drone, but I personally think a drone model should be much simpler than an actual fighter so the Su-57 and S-70 example means the S-70 is not as expensive as an Su-57 though it should match performance close enough to operate together on most missions.

The only advantage of an Su-75 based drone would be that it could keep up with the fighter if the fighter had to run away at supersonic speed for example... in fact with a bit of structural strengthening you could possibly make the drone a super high g fighter... maybe 15g plus that no human could survive... but with no human on board it could pull high g quite a lot. The Su-75 with a human on board could pull 9g perhaps but even then the pilot would not be doing anything except trying not to black out... they wont be thinking about anything else or doing anything else...