Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+45
Hole
Arkanghelsk
Bob Bollusc
medo
Autodestruct
pukovnik7
thegopnik
slavjunk
dino00
Scorpius
Big_Gazza
owais.usmani
mnztr
Kiko
Daniel_Admassu
Sujoy
Rasisuki Nebia
d_taddei2
RTN
Eugenio Argentina
limb
lancelot
zepia
Russian_Patriot_
ALAMO
littlerabbit
Mindstorm
LMFS
SeigSoloyvov
GreyHog
kvs
Lennox
JohninMK
hoom
Mir
marcellogo
GarryB
Gomig-21
George1
Atmosphere
TMA1
Backman
Isos
Broski
PapaDragon
49 posters

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    marcellogo
    marcellogo


    Posts : 516
    Points : 522
    Join date : 2012-08-02
    Age : 53
    Location : Italy

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  marcellogo Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:23 am

    JohninMK wrote:"Thus, unmanned "Screamers" (NATO codification of su-75: Screamer - "Screamer") "

    Has NATO given it a name already? Or did I miss it?

    Naaaahh, it's just a double automatic translation misuse: it means that the russian journo has used it to translate "Growler" into russian so when it was translated back it resulted into SCREAMER instead! lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol!
    Naturally, while a growl is the menacing verse of a wild animal while instead a scream means someone crying loud for abject fear.

    JohninMK likes this post

    Atmosphere
    Atmosphere


    Posts : 223
    Points : 225
    Join date : 2021-01-31

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Atmosphere Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:58 am

    To this day, i still don't understant why some airplanes were called "frogfoot" and "fishbed".
    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 1911
    Points : 1915
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Mir Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:23 am

    It could have been worse like "flatfoot" and "fishpaste" Laughing

    But seriously one can not expect anything else from NATO.

    Atmosphere and Broski like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:41 am

    I believe it was the role of the air standards coordinating committee, which is a group of nations... very similar to the five eye group who made up names for aircraft the west might not know anything at all about.

    The rules are fairly straight forward... though often abused... for instance H for helicopter and F for fighter and one syllable for a propeller aircraft and two or more for a jet... but there are always exceptions... Bear is B for bomber and one syllable for prop driven, but then Hip is helicopter and it is jet powered...

    Names are often chosen to not be flattering, but part of the criteria is that they be very distinct and not sound similar to any other code name or code call...

    So for instance the code Firefox is too close to the calls for launching missiles... ie fox fire...

    Names of friendly types are also an issue so you can't use falcon or eagle or hornet etc etc.

    Remember radio communications can be noisy and difficult to hear so the names need to be easy to say and clear and unambiguous.

    Atmosphere, Mir and Broski like this post

    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 147
    Points : 149
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Autodestruct Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:37 pm

    Has NATO given it a name already? Or did I miss it?

    It will be years before NATO assigns a name to it. So first dibs. UAC has the chance to keep pushing the "Checkmate" brand and get it in general usage. NATO will still call it whatever they want in the future, but only they will.

    GarryB likes this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 17688
    Points : 18195
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  George1 Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:00 pm

    «Sukhoi» fighter — Checkmate

    https://su-checkmate.tass.com/?_ga=2.34418275.372260918.1637503000-1650288519.1621442750

    GarryB and thegopnik like this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 1911
    Points : 1915
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Mir Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:11 pm

    Very nice George but I think it's a repost... Smile

    In your defense - very hard to keep track with all the extensive essays posted these days! Laughing

    George1 likes this post

    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2


    Posts : 2548
    Points : 2724
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:31 pm

    Atmosphere wrote:To this day, i still don't understant why some airplanes were called "frogfoot" and "fishbed".

    A lot of the words chosen were done so it couldn't be misunderstood with a common word so as it would stick in your mind, also for when transmitted over radio if the signal wasn't great you wouldn't mistake it for anything else and all words are uncommon, that's what I was told During my training at chicksands. Foxhound, foxbat, and as you said frogfiot fishbed are all not common words to be used.
    avatar
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 728
    Points : 732
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:27 am

    MOSCOW, 24 March. /TASS/. A model of the new Russian single-engine fighter Checkmate was tested in wind tunnels. This is stated in the text of the patent (available to TASS) for a light tactical aircraft (LTA), published by the Federal Service for Intellectual Property.
    "The presence of all the above controls in the design of the aircraft together make it possible to move the zones of occurrence of unbalanced static instability of the aircraft, <...> to increase the bearing properties and reduce the resistance of this aerodynamic layout of the aircraft, which is confirmed by calculations and tests of the model in wind tunnels", - says in the document.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14165873

    MORE NEWS; MOSCOW, 24 March. /TASS/. The newest Russian single-engine fighter jet Checkmate can get an engine with an all-angle rotary jet nozzle, which will significantly increase its maneuverability. This is stated in the text of the patent (available to TASS) for a light tactical aircraft (LTA), published by the Federal Service for Intellectual Property.

    "The rotary jet nozzle of the aircraft engine is located along the axis of symmetry of the fuselage and is used for control and balancing in flight, it can be made both deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane, and all-aspect," the document says.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14166043

    GarryB, dino00, d_taddei2, magnumcromagnon, Big_Gazza, JohninMK, mnrck and like this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 17688
    Points : 18195
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  George1 Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:39 pm

    The Checkmate’s maiden flight is scheduled for 2023. Its serial production is due to begin in 2025.

    GarryB, d_taddei2, magnumcromagnon, Big_Gazza, zepia, JohninMK, Gomig-21 and like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:33 am

    MORE NEWS; MOSCOW, 24 March. /TASS/. The newest Russian single-engine fighter jet Checkmate can get an engine with an all-angle rotary jet nozzle, which will significantly increase its maneuverability. This is stated in the text of the patent (available to TASS) for a light tactical aircraft (LTA), published by the Federal Service for Intellectual Property.

    An all angle rotary jet nozzle sounds like an engine nozzle that can be angled in any direction... up down left and right... 3D TVC, but...

    "The rotary jet nozzle of the aircraft engine is located along the axis of symmetry of the fuselage and is used for control and balancing in flight, it can be made both deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane, and all-aspect," the document says.

    Deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane sounds like it can only go up and down... 2D TVC... but then it says all aspect?
    avatar
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 728
    Points : 732
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    MORE NEWS; MOSCOW, 24 March. /TASS/. The newest Russian single-engine fighter jet Checkmate can get an engine with an all-angle rotary jet nozzle, which will significantly increase its maneuverability. This is stated in the text of the patent (available to TASS) for a light tactical aircraft (LTA), published by the Federal Service for Intellectual Property.

    An all angle rotary jet nozzle sounds like an engine nozzle that can be angled in any direction... up down left and right... 3D TVC, but...

    "The rotary jet nozzle of the aircraft engine is located along the axis of symmetry of the fuselage and is used for control and balancing in flight, it can be made both deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane, and all-aspect," the document says.

    Deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane sounds like it can only go up and down... 2D TVC... but then it says all aspect?

    Yes, there is no mistake in translation of the text.
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 9568
    Points : 9554
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Isos Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:19 am

    It's the same type of thrust vectoring as su-57. 3d since it will use the same engine.

    That's some sort of brain masturbating here.
    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 745
    Points : 751
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  thegopnik Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:09 am

    interested in either LMFS and stealthflankers input about their supposed ideas making it stealthier than f-117.
    zepia
    zepia


    Posts : 204
    Points : 209
    Join date : 2015-05-05
    Location : Bangkok

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  zepia Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:15 am

    "The rotary jet nozzle of the aircraft engine is located along the axis of symmetry of the fuselage and is used for control and balancing in flight, it can be made both deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane, and all-aspect," the document says.

    Deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane sounds like it can only go up and down... 2D TVC... but then it says all aspect?

    I think he meant the nozzle can be made either in vertical plane only or in full 3D TVC.


    Last edited by zepia on Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4553
    Points : 4553
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:44 am

    GarryB wrote:Deflectable only up and down in the vertical plane sounds like it can only go up and down... 2D TVC... but then it says all aspect?

    Currently 2D as al AL-31/41, in the future of course a 3D TVC would make a lot of sense for a single engine fighter and I would not be surprised if they are working on it.

    Isos wrote:It's the same type of thrust vectoring as su-57. 3d since it will use the same engine.

    That's some sort of brain masturbating here.

    No, Su-57 has 2D TVC engines, they achieve the pseudo 3D effect by angling and differential deflection of the nozzles.

    thegopnik wrote:interested in either LMFS and stealthflankers input about their supposed ideas making it stealthier than f-117.

    Did it say anything about the F-117? They just refer the izd. 117 from what I see.

    F-117 BTW was a very rudimentary stealth plane and the science and technology have come a long way since then. I see no fundamental sin in the LTS that prevents it from being a very low RCS plane at the frequencies where current technology is effective.

    EDIT: it seems they refer the F-117 in the patent as an aircraft that got stealth at a significant cost in other regards, but it is logical due to the prehistorical level of computation at the time.

    TASS has these news about the LTS patent:

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14165627
    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14165873
    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14166043
    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/14166303

    GarryB, dino00 and thegopnik like this post

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8159
    Points : 8304
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:53 am

    LMFS wrote:No, Su-57 has 2D TVC engines, they achieve the pseudo 3D effect by angling and differential deflection of the nozzles.
    Aren't you confusing the psuedo 3D TVC on the Su-30/Su-35's (2D TVC angled at 60 degrees) with the Su-57 full 3D TVC?
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4553
    Points : 4553
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:27 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Aren't you confusing the psuedo 3D TVC on the Su-30/Su-35's (2D TVC angled at 60 degrees) with the Su-57 full 3D TVC?

    No, the Su-57 in its current status has the same type of TVC as the Su-35
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4553
    Points : 4553
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:00 pm

    The patent, thanks to raptor82:

    https://new.fips.ru/registers-doc-view/fips_servlet?DB=RUPAT&rn=2005&DocNumber=2768101&QID=0259937B-597E-4B5C-AA56-FCE718499776&TypeFile=html

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:53 am

    So Saturns TVC nozzles are not as sophisticated and capable as Klimovs, whose engines on their MiG-29OVTs are full 3D instead of 2.5D (angled 2D) nozzles.
    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21


    Posts : 452
    Points : 454
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Gomig-21 Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:44 pm

    George1 wrote:
    The Checkmate’s maiden flight is scheduled for 2023. Its serial production is due to begin in 2025.

    Really looking forward to that day. Reminds me of the anticipation we had waiting until 2am (our time) to see Sergei Bogdan take the first PAK-FA out for it's first test flight. That was fun to watch. This should be equally as exciting, if not, more.

    Such a great-looking aircraft. especially without H-stabs and just the steep-angled rudders. Wonder if they'll send one of the Su-75s as the chase plane? lol that wouldn't be such a bad idea.

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Checkmate_head-on

    GarryB, George1 and TMA1 like this post

    avatar
    Gazputin


    Posts : 322
    Points : 322
    Join date : 2019-04-07

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty 2-seater option ?

    Post  Gazputin Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:48 pm

    you can't help thinking that single seat fighters are a waste of time now
    with a back seater you can control UAVs etc
    not to mention jammers .... glide bombs .... loitering munitions

    when you look at all the puss and pain of that F-35 with its "sensor fusion" .... and automation .... and ... and
    resultant 500 trillion lines of computer code . .... that's is constantly being debugged
    to do what ? ..... what a 2nd guy could have done in a lot simpler plane that's what

    the thing is next to useless if you ask me ....
    why copy a failure

    look what the Israelis did to their F-16s .... the F-16I
    2nd human .... massive electronics spine ..... conformal fuel tanks
    uses standoff munitions for almost everything ....

    and .... from a training POV
    surely its a lot more sensible to have a 2nd human ...
    you can split your training .... so you don't have gazillions invested in 1x guy

    and a 2-seater at the flip of a switch becomes a trainer ....

    Frankly if I was Rus I'd can Su-35 construction and build Su-30SM2s instead
    which are really 2-seater Su-35s

    and the Su-34s is perfect for use with drone swarms .....

    same re Su-57 ..... its crying out to be a 2-seater - with the Su-70 tagging along

    anyway .... this Su-75
    I'd be doing a 2-seater .... and a drone version

    wouldn't waste my time with a single seater .... of any type
    F-35 is about as useful as a hat full of farts ..... why copy it

    and 3d thrust vectoring - is it just me
    but it seems to be used more to avoid incoming missiles than to "get on the tail" of the enemy

    which F-15 did the US put back into production ? .... the E .... the 2-seater






    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:08 pm

    Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but I would think controlling jamming equipment is a very specialised and highly technical thing to do where critical timing and awareness is very important... too important to leave to a crewman in the back of an aircraft subjected to g force.

    A pilot pulling a 9 g turn to evade a threat... at 9 gs the guy in the back might be asleep... will almost certainly be colour blind and about to have a nap... what sort of support can they contribute.

    The Russians are upgrading their Su-30s to Su-35 level but they continue to use Su-35s.

    There is no evidence of any two seat Su-57s except from the Indians and they don't seem interested in paying for it so it wont happen any time soon.

    I would think the future of drones is to get smarter and more autonomous and not need direct constant telecontrol.

    BTW is there any operational aircraft anywhere that actually uses a two crew aircraft where there is a pilot and a UAV controller... apart from the Ka-52?

    There was talk about the Yak-130 being used for controlling drones but it didn't seem to result in anything either.

    Glide bombs and loitering munitions should not require manual control.

    I really don't think the F-35 programme should be held up as an example of anything except corruption and greed... even the extensive and complicated logistics system they were supposed to develop for it to make it much more efficient and cheaper to support was cancelled... talk about trying to make it fail.

    The thing about a drone swarm is that you don't use human controllers, because that would become a weak link that could be exploited by jamming the datalink.

    A swarm only makes sense when we are talking about more targets than the enemy could possibly deal with so right now you would need literally thousands of individual drones all working together against a single target... such a drone swarm would need to be directed buy you couldn't control each drone individually... 1,000 plus datalink command channels... they would jam themselves and how would you coordinate them all so they don't fly into the ground or each other...

    With short range bluetooth links you could control one drone that has dozens of drones following it in formation looking for targets and capturing data or information or delivering weapons.

    Hole likes this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1286
    Points : 1286
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  lancelot Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:33 pm

    Given the disparity in manpower between Russia and HATO they are the ones who need to increase automation.
    But they need to be smart about the way they do it. Not just automate for automation's sake.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:51 am

    The difference is stark but not as clear cut as you might think.

    HATO certainly has aircraft numbers on their side, but they use their aircraft both for attack and defence, and during operations in a real fight there are going to be substantial losses which means that ability to attack and defend is going to diminish over time... sometimes dramatically if they do something stupid and arrogant.

    In comparison the Russian Army has its own strike capacity with ballistic weapons that can now expand into the intermediate range band, and their defence is based on an IADS network that has both SAMs in enormous numbers that can continue to operate even if the central control system is degraded or seriously damaged.

    The Russian Aerospace Defence forces also have their own air defence systems on the ground and in the air, and a combined defence including ground and air assets is always more powerful than one based on aircraft alone.

    Having a numbers light fighter that is cheaper to buy and operate makes sense and is often more effective than having fewer bigger heavier aircraft, but a mix of both is always the best because different situations and locations require different solutions.

    Sponsored content


    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:43 am