Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+42
medo
Autodestruct
pukovnik7
thegopnik
slavjunk
dino00
Scorpius
Big_Gazza
owais.usmani
mnztr
Kiko
Daniel_Admassu
Sujoy
Rasisuki Nebia
d_taddei2
RTN
Eugenio Argentina
limb
lancelot
zepia
Russian_Patriot_
ALAMO
littlerabbit
Mindstorm
LMFS
SeigSoloyvov
GreyHog
kvs
Lennox
JohninMK
hoom
Mir
marcellogo
GarryB
Gomig-21
George1
Atmosphere
TMA1
Backman
Isos
Broski
PapaDragon
46 posters

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32144
    Points : 32672
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:20 am

    Traditionally manouverability was all about being able to get on the bad guys tail for your shot... your radar and weapons all point forwards for that reason so you can shoot at what is in front of you.... manouverability is what puts him in front of you.

    Things like Helmet mounted sights and high off boresight missiles led to a change in thinking however.... during tests in the 1990s against East German MiG-29Bs although the F-16 was able to get onto the tail of the MiG 62% of the time they lost every single engagement because it was deemed that teh MiG pilot was able to get a lock and launch his R-73 within the effective envelope of that missile and were therefore given the kill before the F-16 could launch their missile or get on the target aircrafts tail.

    The R-73 had a wide field of view.... previously IR guided missiles had narrow fields of view to limit the chance of them seeing the sun or other hot object that would distract them from their intended target. The tracking speed of old IR missiles meant if you could pull 9g either the tracking ability of the missile seeker would fail it and it would lose lock or the turn required to keep your aircraft inside its field of view would be much too hard for the tiny fins on air to air missiles to cope with.

    The R-73 had a wide field of view... over 40 degrees in the early models... compared with about 12.5 degrees for your average Sidewinder which was otherwise a good missile of the period. The R-73 also had a seeker that was capable of tracking targets at very high speed... but it also had thrust vector capability too.

    It wasn't a sophisticated gimbled nozzle sealed to high temperature supersonic rocket exhaust flow.... it merely used metal paddles that were thrust into the rocket exhaust to deflect the thrust and allow very hard turns to be achieved.

    This meant even of you pulled 9g it could keep its nose pointed at you in a lock and keep flying towards you till its rocket motor burned out.

    The minimum engagement range was an astounding 300m, and when turning hard off the pylon at launch its max range was obviously massively reduced because a lot of energy would be used up turning instead of accelerating to higher flight speed.

    The point is that for a missile not losing lock is critical, and for an aircraft the ability to point your nose and therefore your radar and IRST and missiles and gun at a target without worrying about stalling is incredibly important.

    With new fighters like the Su-57 they will want to take advantage of their stealth by using medium and long range AAMs against high value targets, while the wing mounted short range missiles will actually likely be small self defence anti missile missiles I suspect.

    For a light fighter like Checkmate over time its design could be adapted to have those small internal weapon bays scattered all over its under surface to allow large numbers of small self defence missiles to be carried in addition to larger bays for bigger weapons, though in the case of the Checkmate one bay is the same as the Su-57 so any long or medium range AAM as well as air to ground weapons could be carried in there, while the front two side bays are probably similar to the wing mounted bays for small short range self defence missiles.

    What ...I hear you say.... a new light fighter that can't carry its own weight in weapons... well carrying a lot of weapons would ruin it... it would need to be bigger and heavier which would make it more sluggish and also more expensive.

    This is a cheap to buy and cheap to operate fighter... don't put all your missiles in one plane... when they are cheap to buy and cheap to use then having more of them means you have more missiles but more importantly you also have more radar and more IRST sensors around the place detecting targets... they will likely have their own drones carrying extra missiles too so there will be no shortage of missiles and you avoid the trap of making a light fighter into a medium fighter that costs more to buy and operate so you can't have as many or use them as much.
    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 987
    Points : 985
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 35

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  owais.usmani Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:16 am

    Kiko wrote:Russia to show Checkmate fighter jet, helicopters at UAE airshow in November — Manturov, 02/11/2021.

    According to the Russian Industry and Trade Minister, UAV Orion will also be on show.

    MOSCOW, November 2. /TASS/. Russia will present a prototype of the new Russian fifth-generation single-engine fighter jet, Checkmate, at the Dubai Airshow, which will take place from November 14-18 in the UAE, said Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov, according to the ministry’s press service.

    "As part of the Dubai Airshow, the schedule includes flights by Russia’s MC-21-310 (running Russian-made PD-14 engines), the medical version of the Ansat helicopter and combat helicopters Mi-28NE and Ka-52E, while the static exhibition of the Russian equipment will be represented by a prototype of the light tactical aircraft Checkmate and helicopters Ka-226T and Mi-171A2. It’s planned that Russia’s UAV Orion will also be on show," Manturov said.

    According to Manturov, for the first time the Aurus brand exposition will feature the Sukhoi Superjet-100 aircraft in a business layout, the Ansat helicopter and the car itself in the same style.

    Russia is also planning to participate in the flying program, the minister said.

    https://tass.com/defense/1357149

    GarryB, George1, dino00, Big_Gazza, miketheterrible, LMFS and Hole like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4123
    Points : 4125
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  LMFS Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:16 pm

    Russia to feature cutting-edge Checkmate fighter prototype at Dubai air show

    https://tass.com/defense/1359013

    GarryB likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4123
    Points : 4125
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  LMFS Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:48 pm

    Thanks to Letun:

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 8156e0221ff0

    GarryB, George1, flamming_python, dino00, Big_Gazza, zepia, miketheterrible and like this post

    avatar
    Daniel_Admassu


    Posts : 147
    Points : 149
    Join date : 2020-11-18
    Age : 41
    Location : Addis Ababa, Ethiopia

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Daniel_Admassu Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:27 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Daniel_Admassu wrote:

    One concern that I have with the maneuverability outlook for the Checkmate is the positioning of the intake. Modern military avionics relies on negative stability for higher maneuverability. That means the flight surfaces don't tend to settle on a preset 'local minimum' profile, as with commercial aircraft but rather tend to veer away, almost like car wheels out of alignment. The overall weight and thrust distribution along the axis (specifically longitudinal) is also important.

    One requirement, if I remember correctly, is locating the intake and thrust points as close to the mid section of the aircraft as possible, somewhat like the flankers (which, by the way, are the best unstable tri-plane designs out there). This tends to reduce the overall natural pitch stabilization that any aerodynamic object may tend to settle on.

    With an intake so far to the front, the Checkmate might lose some of its longitudinal instability. My guess is that Sukhoi might have prioritized stealth over performance here.


    Thrust vectoring makes that a mute point.

    Indeed thrust vectoring has upset a lot of the stability geometry formulations and opened up new possibilities. But remember that at least some rival platforms such as the F-22 also have limited TV (Lateral, I think).In addition to their shape, 2 axis vectored thrust is what makes the Flankers unique.

    The Center of Lift to Intake distance factor has to do with what they call air flow recovery during hard maneuvers. The shorter it is the better. Also an intake cavity is one of the most prominent unavoidable drag sources in an aircraft. For relaxed stability you want all drag to be as close as possible to the CL.
    avatar
    Daniel_Admassu


    Posts : 147
    Points : 149
    Join date : 2020-11-18
    Age : 41
    Location : Addis Ababa, Ethiopia

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Daniel_Admassu Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:29 am

    In the above Diagrams, the front undercarriage seems off-centerline, apparently to make room for the IRST. Is it really?
    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 1341
    Points : 1345
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Mir Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:38 am

    By quite a bit.

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 98834210

    George1 likes this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8428
    Points : 8412
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Isos Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:02 pm

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Fd6noj10

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Fd6nqn10

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Fd6sg-10

    medo, dino00, Big_Gazza, DerWolf, zardof, Kiko, TMA1 and like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8428
    Points : 8412
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Isos Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:04 pm

    Looking at the size it will very likely get the Byelka radar too.

    It may surpass the su-57 in terms of usefulness/cost ratio.
    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2331
    Points : 2321
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  hoom Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:55 pm

    Now I'm confused scratch
    It looks huge next to Su-57.
    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 9702
    Points : 9823
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  JohninMK Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:43 pm

    hoom wrote:Now I'm confused scratch
    It looks huge next to Su-57.
    Who will be first to do a cut and past comparison, as they are to the same scale?
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8428
    Points : 8412
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Isos Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:13 pm

    hoom wrote:Now I'm confused scratch
    It looks huge next to Su-57.

    It's lighter however. It only has wings too big. IMO it is designed for carrier based operations since the begining.

    TMA1 likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4123
    Points : 4125
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  LMFS Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:34 pm

    The source of those pictures, the site has some 3D features to it:

    https://life.ru/p/1448530
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 5124
    Points : 5112
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 45
    Location : Scholzistan

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Hole Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:45 pm

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Fd6nbl11

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, zepia, zardof, LMFS, TMA1, jon_deluxe and Autodestruct like this post

    TMA1
    TMA1


    Posts : 369
    Points : 371
    Join date : 2020-11-30

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  TMA1 Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:02 am

    The wings and vertical stabilizers are nearly identical on both. It is incredible. I love the checkmate. Also note how the top dog tooth edges of the chin intake pose as strakes and you can see how they would perfectly direct vortices into the canted vertical stabilizers. With thrust vectoring I think this thing will get very good high AOA purchase.

    GarryB likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32144
    Points : 32672
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:12 am

    In the above Diagrams, the front undercarriage seems off-centerline, apparently to make room for the IRST. Is it really?

    The position of the front wheel is not really that important, there are lots of aircraft that have their front wheel offset to one side or the other for different reasons... whether it is a gun or a sensor...

    Indeed thrust vectoring has upset a lot of the stability geometry formulations and opened up new possibilities. But remember that at least some rival platforms such as the F-22 also have limited TV (Lateral, I think).In addition to their shape, 2 axis vectored thrust is what makes the Flankers unique.

    Pretty sure F-22 TVC is up and down... with the engines that close together side to side thrust vectoring would not be very effective or useful... plus the powerful horizontal force it would generate would mean those enormous vertical tail surfaces would be much smaller...

    The Flankers have 2D thrust vectoring but the angle is rotated to simulate 2.5D angling.

    The OVT Fulcrum has 3D thrust vectoring, as did the F-29 though it used external paddles.... much like the R-73 AAM.


    The Center of Lift to Intake distance factor has to do with what they call air flow recovery during hard maneuvers. The shorter it is the better. Also an intake cavity is one of the most prominent unavoidable drag sources in an aircraft. For relaxed stability you want all drag to be as close as possible to the CL.

    The MiG-29 and Su-27 use air intakes that lead all the way up to near the wing leading edge... compare that with the intakes on the F-18 which are shorter and therefore further back from the leading edge of the wing surface.

    The thing is that the MiG-29 and Su-27 and their derivatives have shown repeatedly at international airshows and displays that their airflow recovery is excellent even sliding backwards down to earth in a tail slide or in the part of Pogachevs Cobra where they are flying backwards tail first...

    Shorter intakes can be better sometimes, but not always... when flying at different angles of attack a short air intake can be blocked from the incoming air flow by the wing... putting the intake forward near the leading edge of the wing ensures more stable and consistent airflow.

    Note the difference between the Tu-22 and the Tu-22M... they are both bombers and don't require much in the way of manouver capability but very very different engine setups... you might argue the Tu-22 was superior... no long cavernous intakes and engines outside the fuselage leaving more internal volume for fuel... but it is very clear the Tu-22M3 is by far the superior version of those types.

    It looks huge next to Su-57.

    It does look rather big.

    It's lighter however. It only has wings too big. IMO it is designed for carrier based operations since the begining.

    A large wing is not a bad thing and would help operating from lower quality airstrips and motorways. Low wing loading should help with manouver performance too.

    Daniel_Admassu and TMA1 like this post

    TMA1
    TMA1


    Posts : 369
    Points : 371
    Join date : 2020-11-30

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  TMA1 Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:24 am

    I honestly think the checkmate is the smallest that a stealth fighter can be with reasonable amount of fuel, tech, and internal weapons. If you actually look at the whole package you could see that with the izd 30 it will be a mean little supercruiser with just enough firepower and detection equipment. High speed, low drag.

    GarryB and Broski like this post

    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2331
    Points : 2321
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  hoom Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:16 am

    I'll leave it to someone else with proper photo-chopping skills to upload an image (bound to be one done) but I grabbed a screenshot, copied Su-75 wing, translated, flipped & rotated over the Su-57 wing, it is actually a near match by slat & flap edges & the 'no step' dotted lines.
    Not quite a match, possibly some lens distortion/offset but there is definitely some difference in the wingtip trailing edge: extends out a bit from the end of the flap then sweeps forward more steeply on the Su-75, tip may be a bit wider?
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32144
    Points : 32672
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:58 am

    The problem with 5th gen fighters is that internal weapon stowage makes them fat and to be supersonic you can't be short and fat so you need to be bigger than a plane that carries external weapons would be able to be.

    Having said that... the Su-57 isn't a massive aircraft and is actually smaller than the Flanker series of fighters...

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Su_57m13

    Here it is with the MiG-35/29M2/29KR... the fold on the wings suggests to me it is the MiG-29KR.

    Remember the MiG model plane at MAKS for the light fighter role is tiny and looked like a LIFT in comparison.

    jon_deluxe likes this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 17226
    Points : 17737
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  George1 Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:31 am

    Russia’s latest Checkmate fighter has comparable operational characteristics with the US F-35 aircraft but will be more cost efficient than the American fifth-generation combat plane, Head of the state tech corporation Rostec Sergey Chemezov told TASS in the run-up to the Dubai Airshow 2021 on Friday.

    https://tass.com/defense/1360451

    dino00 and LMFS like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 2945
    Points : 2945
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:48 am

    Side by side comparison - Checkmate & Su-57(T-50).  Not really what I would call small...

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 K394xq10

    dino00, zepia, zardof, LMFS and Mir like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4123
    Points : 4125
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  LMFS Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:06 pm

    Infographic by TASS, very nice images:

    https://su-checkmate.tass.ru/ttkh-checkmate/

    GarryB, franco, dino00, Big_Gazza, Mir, Broski and Lennox like this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 1341
    Points : 1345
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Mir Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:35 pm

    Using the above specs on the length (17.6m) and wingspan (11.8m) of the su75 vs the su57's (20,1m and 14.1m) I've more or less come up with the following rough estimate and clearly the Su-75 turns out to be much smaller than indicated!

    You can actually see that the canopy (despite the black outline) is much larger than the Su-57's in the picture posted by Big_Gazza - despite supposedly being identical.

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Su75-v10

    kvs and zardof like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8428
    Points : 8412
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Isos Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:48 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Side by side comparison - Checkmate & Su-57(T-50).  Not really what I would call small...

    [imghttps://i.servimg.com/u/f60/19/14/38/61/k394xq10.jpg[/img]

    It's just the wings that gives the impression of being a big fighter. Actually it has a body similar to the mig-21.

    Only one big weapon bay compared to 2 for su-57 and also 1 engine.

    I agree with above. If you want a stealth aircraft, then it can't be under a certain size. A mig-21 with a weapon bay that can carry most missile can't exist. If you make it then you end up with a f-35 that can carry just few missiles inside and most bigger outside making it not stealthy.

    That's why su-75 is long but not big.
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 5124
    Points : 5112
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 45
    Location : Scholzistan

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Hole Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:40 pm

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Fd_ufc10
    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Fd_unf10
    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Fd_wm510
    From TASS

    GarryB, dino00, Big_Gazza, Gomig-21 and jon_deluxe like this post


    Sponsored content


    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 10 Empty Re: Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:32 am