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    Talking bollocks thread #4

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:03 pm

    Isos wrote:
    I said they have better survivability. Rafale's spectra is the best. Everyone knows that.



    And in which actual war was Rafale taking part? I mean war with all awacs radars and strong AAD by your adversary?

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:07 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Mir wrote:
    Scorpius wrote:to call the Su-34, objectively the best fighter-bomber on the planet, obsolete is a very bold statement.

    Well it is very difficult (actually impossible) for the French to admit that there are other countries in the world that can produce better wines than the French. It is just unthinkable - pure blasphemy! Laughing

    In your defense Isos - for me the Mirage III remains one of the most beautiful fighter aircraft ever designed.

    Objectivity ? Its radar is shittier than mig-29SMT's. Its rcs is at least 40m2 with dumb bombs.

    Its EO systems are prehistorical compare to what Thales's recco and targeting pods are.

    Its manoeuvrability is not the same as su-35's as some here thinks.

    Its air to air capabilities are shitty since its radar is shitty. A mechanical doppler antenna with a pathetic range of not even 100km. Against a rafale or typhoon with 1m2 it should fall to 60km. With jamming it won't see anything.

    Its not a good fighter and just a normal bomber.

    You confuse objectivity with your russian cock sucking ability.

    He said beautiful not effective.

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    Post  Regular Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:08 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Actually Lada was making renault copies in the last years.

    It’s offtopic, there’s a thread about Russian cars.
    Would be cool to see it being revived. Especially now, during sanctions.
    Lada/Renault/Dacia are basically fleet cars - shitty, bland and best used with a lease.


    Last edited by Regular on Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Werewolf
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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Werewolf Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:16 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Ka-52 is ofc not at the same level as Mi-28 (It’s a flying tank)
    I remember the video of Ka-52 being damaged by small arms and they had to land it in the field like a plane… on a belly with landing gear retracted.
    I don’t remember such video. The only videos I have seen are indirect hits by Strela and Igla.
    Can you post the video you are talking about? I am collecting such footage.

    Regular wrote:
    But then again, chances are Mi-28 would get shot down too. Both helicopters can attack targets beyond visual range so heavy armour becomes irrelevant and all it matters are the sensors. Not to mention that Ka-52 is super roomy for the crew, ergonomics that can be compared to Su-34 not a helicopters where pilots sit like in bathtub. Seen videos of pilots having full sized AK-74Ms and body armour with them flying Ka-52. It’s a helicopter in league of it’s own.

    The Ka-52 is currently the most upgraded Attack Helicopter that is able to perform in an high risk environment saturated with enemy AD. The flight characteristics, lack of tail rotor an widely separated engines are a big factor for it’s survivability even after a critical but not fatal hit. The L-370 DIRCM has proven it’s worth while other plattforms don’t have such a system or is not standardized. It also has a more powerful radar already installed under it’s nose cone. It becomes a rather easy task to decide who is going to make the most sorties with lowest risk and highest benefit ratio.

    I would like to see Mi-24VM3 getting upgrades to this level to be equipped by it’s standard configuration with L-370, better MAWS arrangement and capability to use all weapons Ka-52/Mi-28 can use, but that has more to do with my enthusiasm than logical budgeting.


    I would rather walk than drive a French car.

    There are french cars?


    Last edited by Werewolf on Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  AlfaT8 Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:16 pm

    I got some questions about the su-34s as well, forget EW, where are their towed decoys.
    Becuase it wasnt EW that saved Nato aircraft back in serbia  it was these decoys, so where's the 34's decoy?

    As for the slovak S-300, older model, yes, but was very effective, as i recall from those israeli tests, all western aircraft failed miserably at jamming the S-300, the only exeption being the French, and to what extent it was able to "jam" is never mentioned, which told me all i needed to know.

    I remember desparitly looking for the reports on those training exercises to find out to what extent they where able to effect the S-300, i found nothing of note.


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:17 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    I said they have better survivability. Rafale's spectra is the best. Everyone knows that.



    And in which actual war was Rafale taking part? I mean war with all awacs radars and strong AAD by your adversary?

    None but from a technological point of view it is a more survivable aircraft. Once su-57/75, f-35 enter mass production soon it will also be at a big disadvantage. But now against su-30/34, f-16/18/15 it is the best. Only su-35 and f-22 can face it.

    Su-34 is outdated. Just like creating mig-35 in 2020 was dumb since it is also outdated.

    What they need is su-57 and su-75.

    Turning down su-30/34 production will oblige them to buy su-57/75.

    Su-35 will also be at disadvantage once those 5th gen come in big numbers. So in 5 years they will have to shut down its production too. Sticking with the flanker family is harming their airforce. This plateform is getting too old and outdated.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:17 pm

    Isos wrote:Objectivity ? Its radar is shittier than mig-29SMT's. Its rcs is at least 40m2 with dumb bombs.

    Its EO systems are prehistorical compare to what Thales's recco and targeting pods are.

    Its manoeuvrability is not the same as su-35's as some here thinks.

    Its air to air capabilities are shitty since its radar is shitty. A mechanical doppler antenna with a pathetic range of not even 100km. Against a rafale or typhoon with 1m2 it should fall to 60km. With jamming it won't see anything.

    Its not a good fighter and just a normal bomber.
    You do not know WTF you are talking about. The Su-34 has a PESA radar. It is basically a more modern version of the radar in the MiG-31 with ground attack modes. And the radar range is over twice what you are saying. This fighter bomber was designed and is basically late 1990s technology.

    There is no way the MiG-29SMT radar is better in any metric than the Su-34 radar.

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    Post  Backman Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pm

    Do the crying about the su 34 in the relevant thread.

    Anyway quote from medvedev. I don't want to jinx it but maybe a big attack on Ukraine is coming and that's why Z is squealing.

    "Psychiatrists should do preventive skull trepanation to this idiot. So long as he hasn't caused even more trouble for his people and everyone else."

    Dmitry Medvedev commented on Zelensky's calls for NATO to launch preventive strikes against Russia

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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:28 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Isos wrote:Objectivity ? Its radar is shittier than mig-29SMT's. Its rcs is at least 40m2 with dumb bombs.

    Its EO systems are prehistorical compare to what Thales's recco and targeting pods are.

    Its manoeuvrability is not the same as su-35's as some here thinks.

    Its air to air capabilities are shitty since its radar is shitty. A mechanical doppler antenna with a pathetic range of not even 100km. Against a rafale or typhoon with 1m2 it should fall to 60km. With jamming it won't see anything.

    Its not a good fighter and just a normal bomber.
    You do not know WTF you are talking about. The Su-34 has a PESA radar. It is basically a more modern version of the radar in the MiG-31 with ground attack modes. And the radar range is over twice what you are saying. This fighter bomber was designed and is basically late 1990s technology.

    There is no way the MiG-29SMT radar is better in any metric than the Su-34 radar.

    Old PESA. 120 km against a fighter size target which is target like f-15. Rafale has a clean rcs of around 0.5. Do the math, it can detect it at around 60km and I'm being generous.

    It terrain mapping is worse than that of zhuk-M onboard mig-29smt which is a shame for a bomber.

    Garry can move this to the appropriate thread. I'm done with this discussion anyway. No need to reply here.
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:35 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Old PESA. 120 km against a fighter size target which is target like f-15. Rafale has a clean rcs of around 0.5. Do the math, it can detect it at around 60km and I'm being generous.

    It terrain mapping is worse than that of zhuk-M onboard mig-29smt which is a shame for a bomber.

    Garry can move this to the appropriate thread. I'm done with this discussion anyway. No need to reply here.

    Ermm...those claimed numbers remind me of Pechora and F-117. Deja vu???

    Did SiegHeil bite you? First making claims and then announcing that you are not willing to further discuss this to avoid being called out and to have to proof your exaggerated claims with data and sources?

    Don´t pull a siegy on us! Own up to your words!

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    Post  Regular Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:39 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    Ok, my fault. It was clearly hit with a one or two manpads. The landing was insane, crew was picked up by Mi-24 that was escorting them, helicopter stayed in the field for two months until it was either destroyed or collected by Ukrainians.

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 Ad92c110

    https://youtu.be/oLa3fZD1vXs

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:43 pm

    ISOS, I ask you again what is the RCS of Rafale aircraft with missiles and bombs suspended. Those French fairy tales about 0.5 to 1m2 are valid for an unarmed aircraft, which has not been proven. According to your "logic", the Rafale with suspended missiles has RCS like the F-35. Who are you selling this nonsense to?

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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:45 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Old PESA. 120 km against a fighter size target which is target like f-15. Rafale has a clean rcs of around 0.5. Do the math, it can detect it at around 60km and I'm being generous.

    It terrain mapping is worse than that of zhuk-M onboard mig-29smt which is a shame for a bomber.

    Garry can move this to the appropriate thread. I'm done with this discussion anyway. No need to reply here.

    Ermm...those claimed numbers remind me of Pechora and F-117. Deja vu???

    Did SiegHeil bite you? First making claims and then announcing that you are not willing to further discuss this to avoid being called out and to have to proof your exaggerated claims with data and sources?

    Don´t pull a siegy on us! Own up to your words!

    Again I said it has better survivability. Destroying a su-34 is far easier with radar systems than a f-117 or a rafale.

    My words and my arguments are there. I just can't talk anymore with people saying "su-34 is tge best fighter bomber" when they have nothing to back such claims and su-34 is being easily shot down with old russian systems but they don't see it.

    Pretty useless discussion.
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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:48 pm

    ISOS, I ask you again what is the RCS of Rafale aircraft with missiles and bombs suspended. Those French fairy tales about 0.5 to 1m2 are valid for an unarmed aircraft, which has not been proven. According to your "logic", the Rafale with suspended missiles has RCS like the F-35. Who are you selling this nonsense to?

    Equiped with air to air missile it should be still around 1m2.

    Bombs increase it but nowhere near su-34 clean RCS. Spectra makes a wonderful work protecting it in such configurations anyway.
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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:50 pm

    Isos wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    Isos wrote:Objectivity ? Its radar is shittier than mig-29SMT's. Its rcs is at least 40m2 with dumb bombs.

    Its EO systems are prehistorical compare to what Thales's recco and targeting pods are.

    Its manoeuvrability is not the same as su-35's as some here thinks.

    Its air to air capabilities are shitty since its radar is shitty. A mechanical doppler antenna with a pathetic range of not even 100km. Against a rafale or typhoon with 1m2 it should fall to 60km. With jamming it won't see anything.

    Its not a good fighter and just a normal bomber.
    You do not know WTF you are talking about. The Su-34 has a PESA radar. It is basically a more modern version of the radar in the MiG-31 with ground attack modes. And the radar range is over twice what you are saying. This fighter bomber was designed and is basically late 1990s technology.

    There is no way the MiG-29SMT radar is better in any metric than the Su-34 radar.

    Old PESA. 120 km against a fighter size target which is target like f-15. Rafale has a clean rcs of around 0.5. Do the math, it can detect it at around 60km and I'm being generous.

    It terrain mapping is worse than that of zhuk-M onboard mig-29smt which is a shame for a bomber.

    Garry can move this to the appropriate thread. I'm done with this discussion anyway. No need to reply here.
    An S-300 derivative is always protected by a TorM2 on the Russian side. The French jet cannot TorM2 jamming.
    Ukraine also has no French aircraft. Even if, there would be far too few. Russia has MIG-31BM. Nobody will be able to disturb their radar.

    Russia will learn to transform the weaknesses from this war into strengths. This already results in the logic from experience. Who will learn more from this conflict? France or Russia? Airplanes on the floor without protection through TOR are only one: easy goals.

    Russia also has BukM3 in between. How many system should the French jet be able to disrupt at the same time? We are not in the card game here. What works is always taken in the war.

    It was not for nothing that the USA developed F-22, B2, B2Plus and F-35. Against an AD how they have the Ukraine and other states, see also Iran, you cannot fly over Serbia or 2003 Iraq in 1999 and make everything flat. It would only rain F-16, F-15, F-18, EF, etc.

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:34 pm

    Isos wrote:
    dionis wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    On the other hand, what makes you think that an S-300PS or Buk-M1 can't engage a combat loaded Rafale at maximum range? Rafale isn't a stealthy plane by a long shot even if its RCS is smaller than the Su-34. Or even the wunderwaffe F-35 with external load?

    I said they have better survivability. Rafale's spectra is the best. Everyone knows that.

    Su-34 isn't adapted for modern air wars. You need a reduced RCS. Su-34 has the size of a private jet and a RCS probably bigger than it with weapons. In a space protected by Rafale or typhoons equiped with radar that can detect it at more than 200km and meteors it has no chance to reach its target. Even with stand off tactical missiles it will have hard time, unless they use 500-1000km range missiles but then you can just use an il-76.

    "Everyone knows that" = everyone chose to believe it without it being combat tested against... anything SAM-related really? Hah.

    Your Rafale/Meteor vs. Su-34 example is very conveniently contrived in a vacuum... (and totally changing the subject) what about Su-34 escorts, friendly SAMs, and all of the things that could destroy the Rafale on the ground? Pointless speculation.

    And an Su-34 costs what, 1/3 of a Rafale?

    Rafale totally jammed Slovak S-300. Today there is the f4 upgrade that is better in terms of everything but stealth than su-57 tech.

    Come up with all the shit you want french stuff is very very good. Thales has no competitor. Even the US don't bother with their own product and just buy from them.

    Russian wonder weapons prove to not work as advertized. Plenty of time. Su-34 more than the other. They are not all bad but far from the description that russians make about them.

    This is Iskander stikes:

    Even iranian missiles are more precise.

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 Fmtaz010

    ...can I get a source on all avionics of rafale f4 being better than su-57? We dont even know enough to judge whether your statement is true or not. Also I'd hope the latest rafale could jam the slovakian s-400 western MICs have had over a decade to deeply study the thing.

    I very much like the rafale and indeed it is the best choice alternative for those who cannot buy Russian aircraft. It is top end stuff from the west. That said you are sounding like globaldefensecorp propaganda that confused su-30 radars with su-35 irbis e and made fools of themselves.

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:44 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Mir wrote:
    Scorpius wrote:to call the Su-34, objectively the best fighter-bomber on the planet, obsolete is a very bold statement.

    Well it is very difficult (actually impossible) for the French to admit that there are other countries in the world that can produce better wines than the French. It is just unthinkable - pure blasphemy! Laughing

    In your defense Isos - for me the Mirage III remains one of the most beautiful fighter aircraft ever designed.

    Objectivity ? Its radar is shittier than mig-29SMT's. Its rcs is at least 40m2 with dumb bombs.

    Its EO systems are prehistorical compare to what Thales's recco and targeting pods are.

    Its manoeuvrability is not the same as su-35's as some here thinks.

    Its air to air capabilities are shitty since its radar is shitty. A mechanical doppler antenna with a pathetic range of not even 100km. Against a rafale or typhoon with 1m2 it should fall to 60km. With jamming it won't see anything.

    Its not a good fighter and just a normal bomber.

    You confuse objectivity with your russian cock sucking ability.

    ...the leninets radar is a pesa you goof. Its EO systems are indeed old but effective. Thr jamming pods are semi automatic and are being updated. It is a good 4th gen fighter being put in positions where any fourth gen would sustain losses. Dont mistake Ukrainian air defenses with those of Iraq in the first gulf war. Dont know why you are so upset. Of course the rafale f4 is better than su-34. It would be more appropriate to compare it to the newer su-34m upgrade.

    Also homie this is a russian defense forum, where folks like and root for Russian aircraft. Frankly many here are more forgiving and understanding than any f-16.net hugbox. And your accolades and comparisons are way off. You dont provide at least anecdotal sources, and a few claims you made are outright wrong.

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    Post  Azi Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:01 am

    Isos wrote:
    ISOS, I ask you again what is the RCS of Rafale aircraft with missiles and bombs suspended. Those French fairy tales about 0.5 to 1m2 are valid for an unarmed aircraft, which has not been proven. According to your "logic", the Rafale with suspended missiles has RCS like the F-35. Who are you selling this nonsense to?

    Equiped with air to air missile it should be still around 1m2.

    Bombs increase it but nowhere near su-34 clean RCS. Spectra makes a wonderful work protecting it in such configurations anyway.
    I googled the clean RCS of the Su-34 and it's around 1 m^2. dunno As I wrote before....most Su-34 were lost due manpads and not radar based systems.

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    Post  Azi Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:09 am

    Isos wrote:This is Iskander stikes:

    Even iranian missiles are more precise.

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 Fmtaz010
    This picture is out of context! dunno The Iskander may not be as accurate as some cruise missiles...but I doubt really that it misses by 200 or 300 m! The Iskander missiles very accurately hit their targets in Ukrainian cities ... why would they miss their targets at an airfield by about 300 m?

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    Post  Arrow Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:11 am

    The Iskander may not be as accurate as some cruise missiles... wrote:

    Iskander M has a CEP of 10m or less Very Happy

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    Post  Belisarius Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:11 am

    I said they have better survivability. Rafale's spectra is the best

    Its spectra is recognized as the best by all the military people
    Oh yes, because everyone remembers how Egypt did an exercise between their Rafales and Su-35, where the Russian aircraft was totally blinded by Spectra... despite the fact that Egypt never received the Su-35...

    Everyone knows that.
    No, only the French and French fanboys like you THINK that.

    You need a reduced RCS. Su-34 has the size of a private jet and a RCS probably bigger than it with weapons.
    The Flankers' RCS went from 10-15m2 on the Su-27 to 4-5m2 on the Su-30, decreasing to 1-2m2 on the Su-35. In a quick search I found that the estimated RCS of the Su-34 is ~1m2, which is comparable to the most modern 4th generation fighters in the west.


    In a space protected by Rafale or typhoons equiped with radar that can detect it at more than 200km and meteors it has no chance to reach its target.
    You conveniently ignore the fact that the Su-34s could be being escorted by the Su-35 which has the Irbis with a detection range of 350km, in addition to the R-37M missile capable of hitting targets over 300km away.

    Rafale totally jammed Slovak S-300
    There is no merit in being able to jammed a 30-year-old, non modernized air defense battery...

    Come up with all the shit you want french stuff is very very good.
    Oh really! Let's see Caesar's performance in the Ukraine conflict:

    "The aiming program calculates incorrectly: the first shot is always undershot by 600m - to nearly one kilometre; guidance blocks fail at random. "
    https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/21883?single
    It seems that French stuff, like all other western stuff, is rubbish and is only good at killing civilians...

    Today there is the f4 upgrade that is better in terms of everything but stealth than su-57 tech.
    Does the F4 have five AESA radars operating in 2 different bands and 270° angle of view?

    I provided you images of that failed iskander attacks.
    This is Iskander stikes:

    There is absolutely nothing in this image to prove that this is the result of an Iskander attack...


    Even iranian missiles are more precise.
    Everyone here has seen dozens of videos of the "Product 305" missile hitting targets through windows, who here do you hope to convince with that stupid statement?!
    "Ukrainian Buk Explodes in Flames After Russian Military Hits It With Iskander Missile"
    https://m.vk.com/video-7265151_456257460?list=a9496b2e3f7a10e100&from=wall-7265151_2528754


    Su-34 are falling from the skies like moskitos in Ukraine
    Su-34 are getting anilhated in Ukraine, plenty of pictures.
    How many were lost? 5? 6?
    And of course, here I am disregarding things like:
    Videogame footage of DCS and Arma 3.
    Photos of Russian aircraft wreckage that crashed years before the conflict.
    Photos of the same wreck being repeated multiple times.
    Footage of Ukrainian aircraft wreckage being portrayed as if it were from Russian aircraft.


    Rafale managed to launch guided bombs from 50km away in Libya.
    Russians are doing the same thing in Ukraine with the UPAB-1500B-E
    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 I_110



    They even lost a su-35 equiped with "state of art" jammer. At least the Rafale manage to jamm a s-300. Flankers can't even escape some old buk and osa.
    Ukraine doesn't even have an IADS, just some system here and there and they still manage to destroy them everytime they enter Ukraine.
    They only have some system here and there because most of what they had was destroyed by Russia, before the conflict completed a month the Biden administration went to Turkey to beg them to send their S-400 to Urcania, that says everything about how "bad" Russia is against the Ukrainian AD...


    Last edited by Belisarius on Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  zorobabel Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:12 am

    I do not know why the downed Ka-52 was not destroyed, just left there for months. That is one thing I will never understand.

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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Belisarius Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:19 am

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 2c344510
    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 I10
    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 I_210
    The rafale that jammed an S-300 in a military exercise is amazing but the Flankers that destroy it in real combat are rubbish...

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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:20 am

    0nillie0 wrote:Sounds like the Ukranians could really use those Rafales...

    Of course they could use them. The regime insiders would sell them on the black market, stash the cash in London, buy another set of expensive houses in well-to-do areas, then bolt for safety when the SHTF and Banderstan collapses back into the shit from whch it was created. Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:29 am

    Werewolf wrote:There are french cars?
    Downtown Seine-Saint-Denis...   Razz

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 23 French10

    (Disclaimer - I may be wrong about the location...  Laughing )

    Moving to "Talking Bollocks" thread in 3... 2... 1...

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