Talking bollocks thread #4

x_54_u43 wrote:

Oh it wasn't that, it was Hole, Alamo, Papadragon claiming that Russia had taken either 2nd or 3rd place for civil shipbuilding, and specifically used the word "overtaken" Japan, they provided no such source or article.

Sure I did.
And put it into a proper perspective from the beginning.
What is here to discuss further?
I see that Garry found a perfect match: someone who will beat a dead horse only for beating...

GarryB wrote:
I have never ranked Russian ship building... civil or military, I think claiming this or that vehicle or aircraft or ship is the best in the world is juvenile and by extension claiming the makers of that item also therefore lead the world standard is just as stupid and pointless.

Garry, buddy, I hate your manner of combining answers given to several people, without even proper citation.
I suppose the cause you are not answered is due to the fact, that people can't find that you are talking to them, in a wall of text.
This one, I actually found by accident.
IDK if you did or didn't, but I did.
Hole did, and PD did.
As for me, I put that into a perspective from the beginning, and won't talk for the lads.
And I can repeat that any time. Yes, there are multiple claims in media about Russia being 3rd (in tonnage) or 2nd (in hulk No), because it is true when applied to the specified time frame. But it is totally wrong from a general perspective, the gap is so huge that it is impossible. Extending that point, seems that they are turning a solid No 4, and the perspectives are bright&shiny.

GarryB wrote:
I agree that one of us seems to want to "win" this... but over the conversation... we seem to have established the fundamental problems and that what they are currently doing to sort out those problems is what is needed...

The problem is, that X is taking the 2-3rd issue out of a given context, and arguing with something that no one is claiming. At least not me, let's say.
But you do, trying to "defend mother Russia"

If Russia ranks fourth in the world in the civil shipbuilding industry, this result is still very impressive. Russia already has a more developed shipbuilding industry than the USSR? On the other hand, it is two times smaller than the USSR. This shows how much they have achieved in just a decade and a half. The greatest irony is that the oil and fas industry has contributed to the development of modern shipyards. So writing by many experts tgat Russia suffers from the Dutch disease is total nonsense, since they are developing many industries on a large scale. They are also trying to rebuild the civil aviation industry. The new MS 21 and the project of a new passenger plane with China, which will become competition for the Boeing 747 and Airbus 380. All this is done by a country based on a primitive resource economy, as serious economists write.

God, what a ton of nonsense I had to read. So, if you forgot - that my participation in the topic began after post #114, this one:

I remember quite well what you've posted, but I do want to lay down some basics first before we proceed here, a general timeline if you will.

This little "discussion" started with Hole/Alamo/PD claiming that Russia had become 2nd/3rd in civilian shipbuilding, specifically by cargo hulks. I responded to this claim with, to put it kindly, skepticism.

I stated in post, to provide metrics that proved Russia had done this, to put it clearly, metrics that showed clearly, Russia exceeding Japan or South Korea in civil shipbuilding.

My assumption, that by you responding to my post, that you intended to support the claim that Russia exceeded SK/Japan by some metric in civil shipbuilding. Is this correct? I am quite certain you meant to do this, but GarryB seems to think otherwise.

What did I do? I brought information from various sources, which shows that in reality even MORE ships and ships are being built in Russian shipyards than the number he mocked x_54_u43.

Scorpius, I will try and put this as bluntly and kindly as possible, when you want to compare two things, like shipbuilding industries, or if one car is larger than the other, or faster, or which weightlifter can lift more, you have to provide metrics for BOTH sides.

Here is an example for you, one weightlifter(A) can bench press 60 kilograms, the other weightlifter(B) can bench press 63 kilograms. So now we have two data points, 60 kilograms and 63 kilograms. Now, 63 kilograms is a heavier weight than 60 kilograms, so weightlifter B can lift more than weightlifter A.

Now, you may be feeling insulted in the simplistic manner that I am speaking to you, but unfortunately I kind of have to. The problem with the information that you presented from various sources, either themselves didn't compare to SK/Japan, nor did you compare those figures to SK or Japan to prove that Russia exceeded them.

In essence, what you did, was claim that weightlifter A could lift more than weightlifter B, and then only provide weightlifting records for weightlifter A, and not for weightlifter B.  In your second post to me after I called you out for only providing figures for weightlifter A, and providing my own figures for weightlifter B and A, all you did was simply provide pictures of weightlifter A doing weightlifting activities.

What you did cannot be called a comparison, you provided statistics only for Russia, I will quote your sources below again, and go into detail, as I did once before, why they do not prove what you wish them to, correct me if I am wrong, but neither in those paragraphs, nor you yourself actually COMPARED them to Japan or SK. So I am curious as to how you think it proves the claim you are trying to support.

What did the mentioned user do? Instead of admitting that he screwed up and misjudged the situation at Russian shipyards and the number of their orders, he staged a dirty tantrum several pages long.

Really? I misjudged something? Feel free to point out where I did. As for a dirty tantrum, point where I did so? Am I banging on my keyboard or something?

In reality Scorpius, you are simply angry that you are wrong.

At this time, he repeatedly insulted me and many of those present, simultaneously attributing quotes to us that we did not say. He called the data from open official sources nonsense several times.

Where did I insult you? Did I describe your writings and writings of others as dirty tantrums and such?

What quotes have I attributed to you and others that you did not say?

What data did I call nonsense? You will note that I responded to EACH of your quoted sources and explained why they do not support your claim whatsoever, in fact, quite amusingly, the very first one(which spoke of global order portfolio), outright disproved you instantly.

And again I remind you, you did not provide data for South Korea or Japan, which as I have explained to you above, is how a comparison works. A vs B, you provided data for Russia only, and not for Japan or South Korea, which you should do if you wish people to take you seriously when you make a claim.

He spoke several times about the Russian shipbuilding sector in an unacceptably disparaging manner.

Where exactly did I disparage them unacceptably? Did I use slurs to refer to them? Did I insinuate something against them?

I very accurately described the flaws and problems of Russian shipbuilding, if you think it is unacceptable to do so, I don't care.

If you think I am wrong in my assessment(which I have supported with direct interviews from Russian USC director Rakhmanov), do feel free to tell me what you think I got wrong.

Okay, now I intend to finally break him, for this I will ask him to answer very simple questions.

Hilarious, you think to break me? I can assure you Scorpius, the only one here in for a rough ride is you.

As for your very simple questions, I will answer them, but first, I want to go back over the sources you posted, and really get it through your head this time why the sources you posted do not all prove the point you wish to support. Because you have yet to respond to them whatsoever, posting pictures of ships is not at all a response. You did not at all compare Russian civil shipbuilding metrics to SK/Japanese ones.

Let us begin. This is the source that I am using for Japan and will be comparing the figures you give to me. https://www.brsbrokers.com/assets/review_splits/BRS_Review_2020_Shipbuilding.pdf

In 2018, according to the Ministry of Industry and Trade, there were 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards. The laying of 51 vessels took place, 90 vessels were handed over to customers.
Currently (2019) there are 150 vessels in the order portfolio, which is 3% of the global order portfolio for ships.
https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/26426.html

This is my very favorite, right off the bat you prove yourself wrong. I won't use South Korean figures, I will compare only with Japan, as they are ranked third, and SK is ranked second, to make things a bit kinder for Russian shipbuilding. Acceptable to you? If not, I can gladly compare with South Korea as well, but you really won't like that trip.

Let's start with the first part, lets go with the statement of 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards, this figure undoubtedly includes military vessels, even though we are only comparing civil shipbuilding, but I will be kind to you and accept it to make you feel better.

In 2018, Russian Ministry of Industry and Trade states that there were 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards and 90 vessels were handed over to customers, sadly, I can only compare deliveries of ships made, not the number of vessels under construction, but it is of no matter, I am sure you can agree that if deliveries per year are higher, then certainly the amount of ships under construction would certainly be higher.

For Japan, in 2018, 313 ships were delivered. I will do the math for you, 313 is a larger number than 90.

In 2019, as stated by the Ministry, Russia had 150 vessels in it's order portfolio, which by their measure, is 3 percent of the global order portfolio, mind you, I would like to see the metrics behind the way they counted this, but I will take it in good faith.

For comparison, in 2019, by the source I linked above, Japan had an orderbook of 625 vessels, constituting 19 percent market share.

The Russian shipbuilding and shipbuilding market has grown by 67% in value over the year (2020), to 230 billion rubles. The total tonnage increased by 59%, to 542 thousand tons. However, there is a decrease of 8% in units, in total 94 vessels (with a tonnage of more than 50 tons) were delivered to customers in 2020, and about 90 small vessels and boats (with a tonnage of less than 50 tons) were also built. Last year, the ZVEZDA Shipbuilding Complex (managed by a consortium of ROSNEFT, Rosneftegaz and Gazprombank) was particularly distinguished, which took first place in the rating of shipyards in terms of total tonnage and second place (after the Baltic Plant) in terms of the cost of ships delivered. For example, they handed over to Rosnefteflot in 2020 the Aframax head tanker Vladimir Monomakh with a deadweight of 114 thousand tons and a cost of about 31.3 billion rubles.
At the same time, the number of delivered orders decreased in civil shipbuilding by almost 18%, to 62 units, and in military increased by 18%, to 32 ships. For example, sEvmash, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), handed over the nuclear submarine with ballistic missiles Prince Vladimir, Severnaya Verf (part of USC) handed over the corvette Gremyashchy and the frigate Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov, the Baltic Yantar (part of USC) handed over the large amphibious ship pYotr Morgunov to the fleet. In civil shipbuilding, dry cargo ships (17 units were built), barges (13 units) and special vessels of the service fleet are in the lead in terms of the number of ships delivered.
https://zavodfoto.livejournal.com/6704805.html

So again Scorpius, I remind you sincerely that we are comparing CIVILIAN shipbuilding, you understand that in this quote, they directly mention Sevmash, Sev Verf, Yantar, and the MILITARY ships that they have delivered, I hope you understand that this isn't a very acceptable source to provide. I find it highly ironic, that in a debate on CIVILIAN shipbuilding, you provide a quote where it is outright stated that civilian orders declined in terms of deliveries.

And again, they outright state here in 2020, that there were 94 vessels constructed in Russia above 50 tons, so you kinda really scrape the bottom of the barrel here in terms of pumping up statistics. I mean, above 50 tons? Wow.

And again, as I stated before, they mention directly, Vladimir Monomakh, you are aware that this ship was mostly constructed in South Korea, then towed to Zvezda, had it's bow section attached to the vessel, and was passed off as Russian construction? Do you not believe me? Here she is at Hyundai Samho Heavy Industries, South Korea.

According to JSC "TSNIIMF", according to the transport strategy of the Russian Federation for the period up to 2036, in the period from 2020 to 2024, it is planned to build 157 vessels with a total deadweight of 3.5 million tons. Including 36 sea vessels, 95 river-sea commercial vessels and 26 passenger vessels.
https://portnews.ru/news/306885/

Now we come to planned construction, you will note that this is period of five years, which they have summed together, let's compare directly to Japan shall we?

In 2019, this is ONE year, not FIVE, Japan DELIVERED 355 vessels, with 24.5 million tons of total deadweight.

Again, I will do the math for you, 355 vessels is larger than 157, and 24.5 million tons of total deadweight is larger than 3.5 million tons of total deadweight.

This is in one year, not five Scorpius, and a key difference also is that Japan DELIVERED, not planned. So we will see how well these plans turn out for Russia.

As of the end of the first quarter of 2021, at the largest Russian shipbuilding enterprises (included in the register "Shipbuilding: shipyards and Design companies. Results of 2020") construction of about 500 ships and vessels continues. The total volume of ships and vessels under construction and contracted exceeds 2.8 trillion rubles, and the total tonnage is more than 7.4 million tons (translator's note: this means that the average tonnage of EACH of the 500 ships under construction is 14,800 tons, that is, approximately corresponds to a Zumwalt-type destroyer - the data is just for understanding the scale of construction, does not correspond to real statistics). In the future, until 2025, in the field of civil shipbuilding, the priority areas of development are the large-tonnage tanker fleet (75% of the total tonnage), the fishing fleet (5%) and the icebreaker fleet (3%), and in the field of military shipbuilding – the construction of nuclear and diesel submarines (4%).
https://infoline.spb.ru/news/index.php?news=208026

Scorpius, you should know that I read and write Russian, your translation of this, is not correct. Did you think I would not notice?

In the original Russian, the first sentence reads this, "По состоянию на конец I квартала 2021 года, на крупнейших российских судостроительных предприятиях (входящих в реестр «Судостроение: верфи и проектные компании. Итоги 2020 года») продолжается строительство около 500 кораблей и судов."

кораблей is most certainly "ships", but судов is not necessarily "vessels" in this instance. As per Merchant Shipping Code of the Russian Federation, this term refers to any floating non-propelled or self-propelled structure used for near any purpose, including military and civilian functions.

So no, there aren't 500 ships under construction, you have included structures such as barges, floating piers, floating drydocks, floating LNG stations(Novatek's platforms added 1 million tons to this sum alone), oil rigs, , pretty much anything that floats or temporarily sinks under construction got counted here.

I mean, you didn't notice something strange? When future development strategies from Russian shipbuilding organization JSC "TSNIIMF" that you yourself posted for a total FIVE years only included 157 vessels, yet somehow there are now 500? or that Industry of Industry and Trade of Russia states that 170 ships were under construction in 2018, yet in just over 2-3 years, it SKYROCKETED to 500?????

Again Scorpius, you really should have read carefully what you were posting, and actually understanding what it actually said, and how it did not support your claim whatsoever, there are not 500 vessels with average tonnage of 14.8k tons.

And even then, in 2019, with just bulk, tanker, and container type vessels, Japan delivered 355 ships, with 24 million tons deadweight, Just three types of standard vessels, not every floating object under construction, and most certainly not including military vessels in that figure.

I could have really humiliated you here, but I chose not do, so I suggest you adjust your tone towards me when describing me as a "foot" and "throwing dirty tantrums". Because above you have made some truly impressive blunders in trying to support the claim of Russia overtaking SK or Japan.

In the end Scorpius, it is not I who misjudged or screwed up with Russian shipbuilding figures, but you.

I will post again my source here that I used for comparisons with Japan, https://www.brsbrokers.com/assets/review_splits/BRS_Review_2020_Shipbuilding.pdf

If you have issues with it, do let me know, and feel free to provide your own actual comparisons. As I said before, A vs B. You claimed Russia exceeded Japan, prove it. Show me Russian figures, and show me Japanese ones.

Now, I will proceed to answer your very simple questions.

1. If riverboats are so easy to design and build, then wouldn't it be difficult for him to tell us how many countries in the world produce riverboats similar to those listed below?

For one, these aren't just riverboats, but hydrofoils(the last picture is a hovercraft), and quite a few countries produced them in the past, America, South Korea, China, Japan, Switzerland, USSR(Russia), and more. They fell out of style due to advances in other forms of transport, mainly air travel.

As for modern countries producing modern designs, there are several examples in operation, in several form factors from China, Switzerland, Italy, America, and I could find you even more.



Hong Kong ferry for fast travel.



Reliance, a Seattle hydrofoil ferry.



Swiss water taxi hydrofoil.



Hydrofoil operating off Venice, Italy.

Your third picture, a hovercraft, isn't even really a riverboat, but a hovercraft, and again these are in widespread operation around the world, I am again curious as to why you think this is some exotic technology. Do you believe that hydrofoils and hovercraft are exclusive to Russia?




A Canadian Coast Guard hovercraft operating.



British passenger hovercraft



Singapore rescue hovercraft.

Again, do you think hovercrafts are some high end naval technology? People have converted cars into them.

2. If the list of countries from point 1 is not so large, does this mean that all other countries cannot build such river boats because they do not have similar technologies?

List of countries capable of constructing hydrofoils and hovercraft are quite large, if you looked closely enough at any reasonably developed country, you will find some manufacturer of hydrofoils and hovercraft of various size.

I mean seriously dude, people have converted cars into hovercraft.

If there are no countries such as South Korea, Japan, the USA among the countries from List 1, does this mean that these river boats require much more complex technologies than the construction of container ships?

South Korea, Japan, and America most certainly manufacture and operate either hydrofoils, hovercraft, or both. As I have said before, these craft do not require large amounts of capital investment in areas of technology, they do not require any extreme technology or niche production of certain materials or methods of construction to be of certain economic competitiveness.

In the last picture of the hovercraft, I am quite certain automotive engines and standard metal panel and welding construction is used, and I doubt it's rubber is of some cosmic manufacture.

As for your hydrofoils, I have already posted pictures of foreign ones in operation, they also don't require any extremely advanced technology, standard high power engines, (the Valdai 45R in your post uses foreign MTU engines).

http://www.ckbspk.ru/media/files/valdai45pa.pdf

Here is another newbuild/newdesign hydrofoil of Japanese manufacture, https://global.kawasaki.com/en/corp/newsroom/news/detail/?f=20160617_0758

Is it really true that simpler technologies are used in the construction of the nuclear submarine of project 09852 than in the construction of the Aframax container ship?

Is it so difficult for you to understand that this is CIVILIAN construction that we are talking about? And no, it would be absurd to claim that a container ship is the more technological and demanding product that a military nuclear submarine.

Now let me ask you a simple question, why did Russia directly import foreign know-how and equipment(in mass quantities) for Zvezda shipyard from Samsung Heavy Industries in construction of future large vessels, with emphasis on oil and LNG carriers?

Since obviously Sevmash is a Russian shipyard and premier submarine constructor, why was their knowledge and equipment not used for Zvezda? Why did the Russian government and other state-owned corporations see fit to spend large sums of money in acquisition of foreign assistance, when domestic Sevmash is available?

I tell you the answer, because construction of nuclear submarines is a vastly different field compared to construction of Aframax container vessels, yes, the nuclear submarine is the more advanced product, yet Russia builds nuclear submarines and not Aframaxes(for now).

Why is Russia able to construct advanced nuclear reactors, yet attempted to purchase from Norway, Bergen Engines, (Parent company is Rolls-Royce), a manufacturer of large diesel and gas engines with up to 12 MW of electrical power(in order to power naval vessels)? Is a nuclear reactor more advanced than what is essentially a large piston engine in your opinion?

These are different fields, requiring large amounts of expertise, investment, infrastructure, personnel, etc. Russia had infrastructure, investment, personnel, existing production base for nuclear submarines and nuclear reactors, but not for large sea going vessels and their powerplants.

And again, I remind you, we are discussing civil shipbuilding, not military.

Is the construction of one submarine from point 4 equivalent to the construction of one Aframax container ship?

No, for one, 09582 class submarine is a military vessel, and Aframaxes are civilian, as I keep reminding you.

Let me put it to you this way, USSR constructed Buran spaceplane and Energia launch system for it, it was for a long time the world record holder in being the only spacecraft to autonomously perform it's landing procedure. It is quite the advanced product, yet, why was car manufacturing in USSR so obscenely behind the West? Is a old Audi more advanced product than Buran spaceplane?

I know that there is great difference between comparing a naval submarine/Aframax container vessel, and Buran to a passenger car, but do you understand the point I am trying to make to you? These two creations require different specialties and investment, a key difference is mass production and quality control to go with it. USSR/Russia was and is very good at creating breakthroughs in laboratory demonstrators, mass producing these, ESPECIALLY in civilian spheres, was very difficult and is to this day.

And I again remind you, we are discussing CIVILIAN shipbuilding, Russian MIC products are impressive, but the claim was displacing SK and Japan in civil shipbuilding remember? That it is the post you responded to.

What is the length of the list of countries in the world that are able to develop and build at their shipyards at the same time river vessels from point 1, submarines from point 4 and the notorious Aframax container ships?

Construction of vessels of Belgorod type? Well, only nation that comes close to be able to produce such vessel would USA, though they have long conceded civil shipbuilding market to Asia, as for riverboats and Aframaxes, The list of countries for the former is quite long, as I have said before, people have constructed such types of vessels in their garage, they are not something that operates on principles known only to Russia.

As for Aframaxes, countries capable of building them include China, South Korea, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, and some others.

I again am curious as to what these questions were meant to accomplish? Further drive home the point that you don't understand the difference between military and civil shipbuilding?

I have another question for you, there are more nations on the planet that can produce nuclear weapons, than nations that can produce modern turbine engines(PD-14 generation), is a gas turbine engine a more advanced product that a nuclear warhead? Or is there perhaps nuance to this question and it isn't really a correct comparison to make?

As I said before, we are discussing civil shipbuilding, and in that field, production of large ocean going vessels like tankers, container ships, bulk dry cargo, cruise ships, etc, are what is considered around the world to be the "high-end" of the civil shipbuilding world.

They require advanced infrastructure to construct, such as large weigh-bearing drydocks or boathouses, require advanced construction methods to build(especially in an economically efficient manner) such as large and mega block construction, require specialized foundries and steelmaking methods to produce the ultra large steel sheets from which large sections are cut out, which results in vastly increased rates of construction, the engines used on these vessels are also advanced, these are massive piston engines the size of entire houses.

https://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/731.imgcache.jpg

I believe Wartsila, located in Germany, is the only producer of such massive engines, though these are for the absolute behemoths of the ocean. When you go down to around 100k-200k displacement you have a little bit more options in terms of producer.

So Scorpius, how come all these technologies used in construction of Belgorod not being applied here? It is the more advanced product, what's stopping Russia?

If, after honest answers to these simple questions, the user x_54_u43 will not be able to understand why he screwed up, then I consider it pointless to continue conducting any dialogues with this user at all.

Again, you are the one who made the hilarious mistake of counting every single floating man-made object under construction in Russia to try and beat out Japanese shipyards in construction just three types of vessel, bulk cargo, container, and tanker.

It is you who screwed up, not I. And it is my patience being worn thin, having to explain basic concepts to you, since you cannot even provide figures for Japan to prove the claim that Russia exceeded their civil construction figures.

Speaking of my long silence: unlike the aforementioned user, my time is scheduled almost by the minute - real life, do you know this expression? And so I had to spend as much as 15 minutes of my precious time on explanations refuting stupid accusations against me. So I spent a quarter of an hour of my life teaching some (even unknown to me) fool for FREE, instead of spending that time earning money to pay off my mortgage.

And I had to spend my time teaching you how to actually make a comparison, A vs B. And if you think I am not busy with my own things, you are most wrong. It is free laughs for me, watching you twist and turn trying to somehow concoct some form of comfortable delusion that Russa superceded Japan or South Korea in civil shipbuilding.

Are you finally ready to admit your error? ALAMO did. I respect him for it, you on the other hand accuse of me of tantrums, writing nonsense, insulting and disparaging you and others, Russian shipyards...

Again, I could have been very easily humiliating you this entire post, you provided plenty of material. Literally every single quote you provided me proved you wrong. After being told so in my first response to you, all you responded with were pictures, I mean it's embarrassing really. Do you want me to post in response, South Korean or Japanese shipbuilding yards with vessels under construction? It's absurd.

Even GarryB, a person living on the other side of the planet from me, and not even speaking the same language with me, understood what I wanted to say. But not x_54_u43

So glad GarryB understands what you want to say, but you failed to understand that I asked for metrics proving the claim that Russian civil shipbuilding exceeded Japanese or South Korean one, and you have completely and utterly failed in doing so, continuously using figures that included military vessels.

I await your reply, and I do hope it is something more substantial than pictures this time.

Arrow wrote:If Russia ranks fourth in the world in the civil shipbuilding industry, this result is still very impressive.  Russia already has a more developed shipbuilding industry than the USSR?  On the other hand, it is two times smaller than the USSR.  This shows how much they have achieved in just a decade and a half.  The greatest irony is that the oil and fas industry has contributed to the development of modern shipyards.  So writing by many experts tgat Russia suffers from the Dutch disease is total nonsense, since they are developing many industries on a large scale.  They are also trying to rebuild the civil aviation industry. The new MS 21 and the project of a new passenger plane with China, which will become competition for the Boeing 747 and Airbus 380. All this is done by a country based on a primitive resource economy, as serious economists write.

They MIGHT be 4th. The European business was struck hard by the crisis in the sector, by the far east competition, and by the lockdowns.
But they will only expand now on, as they finally secured the backstage.

x_54_u43 wrote:

ALAMO wrote:

x_54_u43 wrote:
So by what metric is this statement based on?

By any.
They float 2-3rd place for a while, depending on how the contract dates are combined to make a comparison.
A NEVA2021just ended in Peter 2 weeks ago, and some data was revealed there as well.
They produce 230+ civil hulks at the moment, with the potential for a further 120 ...
You really can't realize the scale of the upgrade of the Russian civil fleet, because it is hard to realize, to be honest.

I'm sorry but this is just funny, mind actually giving a concrete figure and source?

I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.

My assumption, that by you responding to my post, that you intended to support the claim that Russia exceeded SK/Japan by some metric in civil shipbuilding. Is this correct? I am quite certain you meant to do this, but GarryB seems to think otherwise.

Everything that went after that, you can not read, because it's nonsense.

when you want to compare two things

That's what you want, not me. I brought figures and links to sources. You're desperate to turn this into a penis measurement competition.

Am I banging on my keyboard or something?

Oh yeah. All these walls of text with regular insults are a consequence of your calmness and confidence, we understand, don't shout so loudly.

In reality Scorpius, you are simply angry that you are wrong.

In reality (in real reality, not the one where you came up with all the nonsense), x_54_u43, I can't get angry because I'm wrong about something that I never stated.

What quotes have I attributed to you and others that you did not say?

If you still haven't been able to understand this, I have reasonable doubts about your mental development.

You will note that I responded to EACH of your quoted sources and explained why they do not support your claim whatsoever

And what did I CLAIM by bringing links to information indicating the primary sources?

in fact, quite amusingly, the very first one(which spoke of global order portfolio), outright disproved you instantly.

Refuted what? From now on, 500 is less than 250?

And again I remind you, you did not provide data for South Korea or Japan

Why would I do this to show the number of vessels produced in Russia?

you should do if you wish people to take you seriously when you make a claim.

You should first stop telling other people on the internet what they should do - if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Where exactly did I disparage them unacceptably? Did I use slurs to refer to them?

Oh, so the denial of what has been done has begun. Once again.

Hilarious, you think to break me?

This has already worked, since you could not give an answer, adhering to your own previously made statements.

I can assure you Scorpius, the only one here in for a rough ride is you.

A very self-confident statement from someone who is not able to read the text and invented some statements that I did not say.

you posted do not all prove the point you wish to support

Are the sources irrelevant or are the data from them incorrect? About 500 units of water equipment are not being built in Russia?

You did not at all compare Russian civil shipbuilding metrics to SK/Japanese ones.

I wonder how soon it will reach you?

Let us begin. This is the source that I am using for Japan and will be comparing the figures you give to me

Oh, right. It seems that these are really problems with mental development.

And again, they outright state here in 2020, that there were 94 vessels constructed in Russia above 50 tons

Not "constructed", but "delivered to customers".

so you kinda really scrape the bottom of the barrel here in terms of pumping up statistics

Me? I don't make statistics - and even more so it's not my idea to divide the ships under construction into two main groups "up to 50 tons" and "more than 50 tons".

For Japan

I absolutely don't give a shit what's going on in Japan. You can discuss Japanese shipbuilding in the branch dedicated to Japanese shipbuilding.
.

For comparison, in 2019, by the source I linked above, Japan

One more time: I absolutely don't give a shit what's going on in Japan. You can discuss Japanese shipbuilding in the branch dedicated to Japanese shipbuilding.

So again Scorpius, I remind you sincerely that we are comparing CIVILIAN shipbuilding, you understand that in this quote, they directly mention Sevmash, Sev Verf, Yantar, and the MILITARY ships that they have delivered, I hope you understand that this isn't a very acceptable source to provide. I find it highly ironic, that in a debate on CIVILIAN shipbuilding, you provide a quote where it is outright stated that civilian orders declined in terms of deliveries.

Probably the reason for this is your mental disorder, because of which you are not able to understand:
1. That I have not stated anything like this
2. That Sevmash, Yantar, Severnaya Verf and other shipbuilding enterprises also produce CIVILIAN products.

I mean, above 50 tons? Wow.

It's definitely less than 50 tons. Of course, it's not impressive at all, any country builds such hundreds. Wait...

Now we come to planned construction, you will note that this is period of five years, which they have summed together,

If it weren't for your mental disorder, you would have noticed that this is a list within the framework of ONE state program.

your translation of this, is not correct

You can file a complaint with Yandex if the translation using their translator is incorrect.

Did you think I would not notice?

... and for greater invisibility, I probably accompanied each passage with links to the original, didn't I, Mr. Genius?

кораблей is most certainly "ships", but судов is not necessarily "vessels" in this instance. As per Merchant Shipping Code of the Russian Federation, this term refers to any floating non-propelled or self-propelled structure used for near any purpose, including military and civilian functions

And at the same time, all your statements are blind divination. Because the only up-to-date version of this directory that I have met costs 90,000 rubles. I doubt you have one.

So no, there aren't 500 ships under construction

I'm already starting to wonder - is your mental disorder dyslexia, bipolar disorder - or is it just schizophrenia?

you have included structures such as barges, floating piers, floating drydocks, floating LNG stations(Novatek's platforms added 1 million tons to this sum alone

total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters

Hmm, maybe schizophrenia after all?

or that Industry of Industry and Trade of Russia states that 170 ships were under construction in 2018, yet in just over 2-3 years, it SKYROCKETED to 500?????

And, that is, different sources from different time periods and different structures are required to give the same figures using the same criteria?

If you think I am wrong in my assessment(which I have supported with direct interviews from Russian USC director Rakhmanov), do feel free to tell me what you think I got wrong.

Speaking of which: It should be noted that in 2020 Russia took the second place in the world in terms of shipbuilding. This is evidenced by the rating of the international agency Clarkson Research based on the results of the third quarter of 2020. Russian shipbuilders entered the top three world leaders for the first time. Such results were achieved thanks to the number of civilian vessels built, including icebreakers. The first place traditionally went to South Korea: in the third quarter, it accounted for 45% of the world's shipbuilding.

As Rakhmanov noted at the time, after the delivery of the icebreakers Ural and Siberia, Russia will be able to claim the first place.


https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2021/03/19/rossiyskoe-sudostroenie-vyshlo-v-mirovye-lidery-i-realizuet-importozameshchenie

By the way, I brought only a quote again. It has nothing to do with my point of view, which I have not even voiced here.

In 2019, this is ONE year, not FIVE, Japan DELIVERED

And even then, in 2019, with just bulk, tanker, and container type vessels, Japan delivered

Did I mention that I don't give a shit about what's going on in Japan?

I could have really humiliated you here, but I chose not do,

I could really break your jaw, but I chose not do

God, I really feel like I'm talking to an idiot.

Because above you have made some truly impressive blunders in trying to support the claim of Russia overtaking SK or Japan.

I made mistakes in what I never stated, in comparing what I did not compare. OK, it's probably schizophrenia after all.

ALAMO>They produce 230+ civil hulks at the moment, with the potential for a further 120
x_54_u43>>I'm sorry but this is just funny, mind actually giving a concrete figure and source
Scorpius>>>Results of 2020 construction of about 500 ships and vessels continues. Source:...
...
x_54_u43>>>>In the end Scorpius, it is not I who misjudged or screwed up with Russian shipbuilding figures, but you.

It seems that I am observing a case of irreversible degradation of brain tissues.

They fell out of style due to advances in other forms of transport, mainly air travel.

So, if Russia does not build aircraft carriers >> Russia cannot build aircraft carriers.
If any other country does not build anything >> it has gone out of fashion.

At this point, I'm simply tired of answering idiotic chatter, since I've been clear about you for a long time without this answer. Here I just illustrated to other forum users what you really are.

Everything that went after that, you can not read, because it's nonsense.

ALAMO claims directly that they float between 2-3rd place, "depending on contract" dates.

It's utter fucking bullshit. It's literally twisting statistics into some pathetic fantasy, made by article writer who doesn't understand anything at all, whatsoever.

Question is now what the **** you are trying to prove here? Did I somewhere state that Russia produces zero ships?

I responded to ALAMO, who was claiming that "by any" metric Russia was in 2nd/3rd. I asked specifically to PROVE the claim.

I didn't ask for you to give me a rundown of what ships Russia produces, I asked for metrics proving ALAMO's claim.

You utterly and completely fail to deliver, and your pathetic whining does you no favors.

That's what you want, not me. I brought figures and links to sources. You're desperate to turn this into a penis measurement competition.

I don't give a shit what you want, I asked for figures and proof for ALAMO's claim, not for you to whine to me and say "oh that's not what I said".

You haven't said **** all over what point you are actually trying to prove, you responded to my post SPECIFICALLY requesting figures and sources to prove ALAMO's claim of "by any". I wanted proof specifically for HIS claim, as well as for Hole and PapaDragon.

So again, if you're not trying to prove ALAMO's claim, then what the **** are you doing?

Oh yeah. All these walls of text with regular insults are a consequence of your calmness and confidence, we understand, don't shout so loudly.

Yeah, it's called actually explaining something with accurate detail, instead of drive-by shitposting like you.

In reality (in real reality, not the one where you came up with all the nonsense), x_54_u43, I can't get angry because I'm wrong about something that I never stated.

There is a very keen detail you are missing here because of your inability to understand basic sentence structure, I am responding to ALAMO, requesting proof for his SPECIFIC CLAIM of RUSSIA being 2nd or 3rd place in CIVILIAN SHIPBUILDING, by his very first sentence "BY ANY METRIC".

Notice something important here? I didn't ask for you by name, you yourself chose to respond to my specific question to ALAMO on his claim.

Do you finally understand now? I specifically asked for proof, you responded with complete and utter blowhard bullshit and whining because you don't understand **** all, and are just a fanboy with not even shallow understanding of the subject.

If you still haven't been able to understand this, I have reasonable doubts about your mental development.

So you can't point out where I wrongly attributed quotes, and now just resort to insults, pathetic. You expect me to take you seriously now?

And what did I CLAIM by bringing links to information indicating the primary sources?

I have no fucking idea, because you have yet to tell me. Am I supposed to read your mind?

I responded to ALAMO, posing the very specific question, what concrete FIGURE and SOURCE, proves the CLAIM that RUSSIA is in 2nd/3rd for CIVILIAN SHIPBUILDING, as made by ALAMO, Hole, and PapaDragon?

Again, read very carefully, notice how I did not whatsoever ask for paragraphs citing total military and civil shipbuilding output?

So again, what actual fucking point are you trying to make here? That Russia makes a quantity of various types of vessels and floating structures? Thank you so fucking much, but I already know. What I don't know, is how the **** Russia is considered to be 2nd or 3rd place by civilian shipbuilding, that is why I requesting proof, and you have, for the third time now, failed to deliver.

If you are not trying to prove that Russia is second or third, as claimed by Hole, ALAMO, and PapaDragon, then what the **** are you doing? It is exactly the claim I requested proof for.

Refuted what? From now on, 500 is less than 250?

So again, what are you trying to prove here? You specifically responded to a post asking for proof for a claim that Russia was second or third by any metric for civil shipbuilding.

I compared these figures you gave to me, and they utterly do not prove this claim, so again, what fucking point are you trying to make with this information, if not the claim that I requested proof for?

Why would I do this to show the number of vessels produced in Russia?

Because the post you replied to specifically asked for proof that Russia had taken 2nd/3rd place for civil shipbuilding. If that is not the claim you are trying to support, why the **** did you respond to it then?

You should first stop telling other people on the internet what they should do - if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Again, I asked for proof SPECIFICALLY for ALAMO's claim, YOU responded to that question with data that had no fucking value to it whatsoever.

Oh, so the denial of what has been done has begun. Once again.

So you won't actually show where I did so? I am supposed to take you seriously?

This has already worked, since you could not give an answer, adhering to your own previously made statements.

You are hilariously delusional, where have I not given an answer not consistent with previous statements?

A very self-confident statement from someone who is not able to read the text and invented some statements that I did not say.

I asked for proof for the claim that ALAMO made, it is you responded, and you is without clue how to read text and statements.

Are the sources irrelevant or are the data from them incorrect? About 500 units of water equipment are not being built in Russia?

Holy shit, did I say the data was incorrect? No I fucking didn't. Read very carefully again what I said.

"do not all prove the point you wish to support"

You say I have misread text somewhere about the claim you wish to make, WHAT CLAIM DO YOU WANT TO MAKE?

What is the point of your data? To prove that Russia makes a quantity of various types of vessels? Holy shit dude, did I claim they weren't making vessels and floating structures?

I asked specifically, in response to ALAMO's claim, to prove that Russa had taken 2nd/3rd place by, in his own words, "by any metric".

So again, if that is not the claim you wish to support, what the **** are you trying to do?

I wonder how soon it will reach you?

Oh it reached me long ago that you don't understand basic communication whatsoever.

If you are not comparing them, why the **** did you respond to the post where I specifically asked for proof that Russia had taken 2nd/3rd place?

Oh, right. It seems that these are really problems with mental development.

Oh I agree, only an invalid could respond to a request for proof on a certain claim, and not making even the most basic attempt at a comparison.

Again, what is the point you are trying to make? Russia makes vessels? I already fucking know.

Not "constructed", but "delivered to customers".

OK, delivered to customers, what is the point you are trying to make?

Me? I don't make statistics - and even more so it's not my idea to divide the ships under construction into two main groups "up to 50 tons" and "more than 50 tons".

You didn't make the statistics I know, why are you using them? What specific claim are you trying to support with these quotations?

I absolutely don't give a shit what's going on in Japan. You can discuss Japanese shipbuilding in the branch dedicated to Japanese shipbuilding.

Jesus, what ward did you escape from?

You understand that ALAMO, Hole, PapaDragon had made the SPECIFIC claim of Russia overtaking either South Korea or Japan in CIVILIAN SHIPBUILDING.

If you don't want to discuss Japanese shipbuilding, why did you reply to my post asking for proof for the above claim?

One more time: I absolutely don't give a shit what's going on in Japan. You can discuss Japanese shipbuilding in the branch dedicated to Japanese shipbuilding.

Then why respond to my request for proof that Russia had displaced Japan from no.3 spot in civilian shipbuilding if you don't want to discuss Japanese shipbuilding?

What the **** do you want to discuss? What fucking claim or point are you trying to make?

Probably the reason for this is your mental disorder, because of which you are not able to understand:
1. That I have not stated anything like this
2. That Sevmash, Yantar, Severnaya Verf and other shipbuilding enterprises also produce CIVILIAN products.

So again, I requested proof for CIVILIAN shipbuilding, you have given me sums including MILITARY construction.

What is the fucking point you are trying to make here?

It's definitely less than 50 tons. Of course, it's not impressive at all, any country builds such hundreds. Wait...

Deep diving apparatuses? I agree, no such country makes hundreds of them, including Russia. Do you think Russia is the only one to reach deep depths with underwater unmanned vehicles?

If it weren't for your mental disorder, you would have noticed that this is a list within the framework of ONE state program.

I did notice, I again ask what point you are trying to prove here? Russia makes vessels? I already know.

You yourself found this quote and provided here, to prove what point or claim?

ou can file a complaint with Yandex if the translation using their translator is incorrect.

Aren't you a Russian speaker? Garry said you were, why didn't you catch the error? Why let me find it?

... and for greater invisibility, I probably accompanied each passage with links to the original, didn't I, Mr. Genius?

Basic practice for providing proof to a claim, how gracious of you.

And at the same time, all your statements are blind divination. Because the only up-to-date version of this directory that I have met costs 90,000 rubles. I doubt you have one.

All my statements are made with actual critical thinking, you think Min of Industry and Trade missed another 300 vessels and millions of tons of additional deadweight in terms of vessels?

It's literally every floating object under construction in Russia, get over yourself.

I'm already starting to wonder - is your mental disorder dyslexia, bipolar disorder - or is it just schizophrenia?

Are you inbred or just dropped on your head? Are there 500 actual SHIPS, not fucking floating piers, barges, oil rigs, and every other floating object in construction in Russia? Because that is the statistic you have given to me.

SHIPS, genius, SHIPS, they have stuff like engines, rudders, a hull shaped to move through the water and such. Know what they are?

You think Novatek's LNG platforms are ships now? Talk about mental illness. I suppose a car dropped into a body of water would not count as a ship in your opinion as it floats near the top for a minute before it sinks to the bottom.

Hmm, maybe schizophrenia after all?

TONNAGE OF SHIPS, because you know, CIVILIAN SHIPBUILDING? Did a floating barge or crane become a fucking ship now?

And, that is, different sources from different time periods and different structures are required to give the same figures using the same criteria?

You were the one thinking that the statement meant that there were 500 ships under construction in Russia, its outright bullshit no matter how much you twist and turn out of it.

Speaking of which: It should be noted that in 2020 Russia took the second place in the world in terms of shipbuilding. This is evidenced by the rating of the international agency Clarkson Research based on the results of the third quarter of 2020. Russian shipbuilders entered the top three world leaders for the first time. Such results were achieved thanks to the number of civilian vessels built, including icebreakers. The first place traditionally went to South Korea: in the third quarter, it accounted for 45% of the world's shipbuilding.

As Rakhmanov noted at the time, after the delivery of the icebreakers Ural and Siberia, Russia will be able to claim the first place.

And what again is this metric? He states that Russia took direct second place in world shipbuilding specifically in 2020, it's utter bullshit.

Is it total deadweight, gross tons? Total orderbook? Number of promises made about deadlines to the RuNavy?

By the way, I brought only a quote again. It has nothing to do with my point of view, which I have not even voiced here.

It's time to do so, because you specifically responded to my post requesting proof from ALAMO that Russia had become world's 2nd or 3rd largest shipbuilder, specifically even for civil cargo hulks.

What the **** are you trying to prove?

Did I mention that I don't give a shit about what's going on in Japan?

Then why are you bothering me with your stupid bullshit? I requested proof from ALAMO for his claim, of any metric that Russia is in second or third place, he himself already knows this was false and retracted it. That is the claim I wanted proof of, not whatever delusion goes on in your single brain cell.

I could really break your jaw, but I chose not do

God, I really feel like I'm talking to an idiot.

You are a pathetic whiny sniveling bitch who only has the balls to talk shit behind the screen.

I made mistakes in what I never stated, in comparing what I did not compare. OK, it's probably schizophrenia after all.

So what did you state then? As I have already stated, I requesting proof of ALAMO's claim of "2nd or 3rd by any metric".

Hurry up already, what are you trying to prove?

It seems that I am observing a case of irreversible degradation of brain tissues.

Holy shit dude, you accuse me of being mentally retarded?

Are you so fucking thick in the head you don't understand that I wasn't asking for proof of 230+ civil hulks? Are you fucking dyslexic? I know there are several hundreds of vessels and other floating structures.

ALAMO wrote:By any.
They float 2-3rd place for a while, depending on how the contract dates are combined to make a comparison.
A NEVA2021just ended in Peter 2 weeks ago, and some data was revealed there as well.
They produce 230+ civil hulks at the moment, with the potential for a further 120 ...
You really can't realize the scale of the upgrade of the Russian civil fleet, because it is hard to realize, to be honest.

This is the full post by ALAMO, noticed the first bolded lines?

This is the part that I wanted proof for, not there are 230 civil hulks under construction in Russia, I have been more than fucking clear.

Where exactly did I place doubt that there weren't 230 civil hulks are construction, it's not anywhere on this forum, because you are cave goblin  that is utterly incapable of processing written human speech.

So, if Russia does not build aircraft carriers >> Russia cannot build aircraft carriers.
If any other country does not build anything >> it has gone out of fashion.

Holy shit, how in your mind do you go from hydrofoils and hoverboats to aircraft carriers? You do understand that this whole discussion started with civilian shipbuilding?

I literally showed you new build hydrofoils and hovercraft from other countries, Russia isn't exactly unique in them, all I said was that they fell out of popularity and production, INCLUDING IN RUSSIA, you deranged clown, and you do understand Russia ALSO stopped building hydrofoils for a long time after the fall of the USSR, and you know, just recently fucking restarted production? You have direct pictures of foreign hydrofoils and hovercraft, you want links to?

And yeah, I am quite correct in the statement that Russia currently doesn't have the capacity to build aircraft carriers, why do you think it started with 40k ton helicarriers? Or was struggling with the induction of a single frigate actually proof in your mind that Russia would have no issue constructing a vastly more complicated and expensive combat vessel?

At this point, I'm simply tired of answering idiotic chatter, since I've been clear about you for a long time without this answer. Here I just illustrated to other forum users what you really are.

At this point, I am quite exhausted at laughing over how you have consistently failed to understand what I asked for in my post to ALAMO.

And the only thing you have illustrated is complete inability to understand basic sentence structure, how the **** did you delude yourself that I was placing doubt on ALAMO's figure of 230 hulks? He could have said 1000+ and I wouldn't have cared, I wanted proof with figures and sources supporting the claim that RUSSIA overtook JAPAN or SOUTH KOREA in CIVILIAN SHIPBUILDING.

Others made the claim, I called the proof, and here you are still failing to deliver, if you don't want to deliver because you know the claim is false, then **** off. You think I don't already know what ships and tonnages the Russian shipbuilding industry is outputting? I've forgotten more than you know.

Agree ! It cracks me up ! These American gun laws ! Right to stand your ground ! Protect property ! Laws that belong to the  old West . The flintlock and the curly moustache ! How about this kid recently in America , travelled far from home with M16 . Killed two or three protesters ! Protecting property ! We should not expect much from American law . Stuck in the wild West ! Protecting their Beaver pelts from the next trapper.........

With ISIS refusing to surrender , I have said waste no bullets . Use more efficient means . With those refusing to surrender ideology , fixed term prison with ideological rehab . Repeated sentence for those refusing rejection of old ways of violence . Those who rehabilitate successfully are released . Humanity shown as far as possible . But unarmed women and Children being targets in case they arm themselves at the slightest hint of hormones ? Bunch of Cowboys .......


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=990E-T3wEaE

It is because their kids ALWAYS turn murderers at puberty ! But they forgive their own kids .

nomadski wrote:Agree ! It cracks me up ! These American gun laws ! Right to stand your ground ! Protect property ! Laws that belong to the  old West . The flintlock and the curly moustache ! How about this kid recently in America , travelled far from home with M16 . Killed two or three protesters ! Protecting property ! We should not expect much from American law . Stuck in the wild West ! Protecting their Beaver pelts from the next trapper.........
.

What? Kyle killed a child rapist, a wife beater, and vaporized the bicep of a thief in a clear cut case of legitimate self-defence. You cannot anymore have a wronger take on this.

PAGING GARRY

WTF has this got to do with Syria???

Iyle6 wrote :

"......What? Suspect Kyle killed a child rapist, a wife beater, and vaporized the bicep of a thief in a clear cut case of legitimate self-defence. You cannot anymore have a wronger take on this......"

Why should I care ? They are Americans killing Americans ! ............I care , because it relates to us too . Yes in Syria or Iran or elsewhere . Especially that we should not follow their laws . Protesters carrying guns . Shooting each other . Burning and looting . All under the banner of Freedom ! Many compare situations in own countries and say : " .....Look They do it in America even worse ! So because they are more advanced than us Africans and Asians or Latin Americans , then we should  do it too ... " !


JohninMK  wrote :

".......WTF has this got to do with Syria???....."

I think it relates to Syria in two ways . First , I remember the Arab spring , where it all started . Where these mass movements mostly did not lead anywhere . And in some cases deteriorated into civil wars . In Syria , both sides started using weapons . But it is not clear who was first . The BBC did show one instance , where a government trooper was seen planting guns , among the corpses of the dead protesters ! This if true , was done to justify the shooting of otherwise unarmed protesters !  The idea being that fear through killing , resolved political problems !? Second , this incident in America , shows us not to expect too much from America . Killing is part of their culture . The rule of the Gun . There will be demonstrations again in Syria or ....,then what are we to do ? Give everyone a Gun and say shoot ? Or are we to organise society along different path ? One where , there is no need for protests . And if people protest , it will be a good atmosphere . No need even for police !!


GarryB wrote :

"....Regarding this incident from what I have read the people who he shot were not unarmed either... when they have guns and they are attacking you then of course shooting to defend yourself makes sense, and a court of law that heard evidence from both sides have said he is innocent... who am I to argue with that?......"

I think in this modern world , the job of police in controlling demonstrations , can be done almost entirely using non-lethal crowd control methods . Even with rioters who burn vehicles or buildings , specialist police can close in and arrest arsonists . No place for using live lethal Ammo or shot guns . The limits are plastic bullets and tear Gas ! But even these can kill , so must be used in cases where people have the ability to disperse . Protesters can shout about anything they like . As long as they do not call for the murder of anyone ! Or block important buildings or Roads that are needed for public access , such as police stations or Hospitals .....

In these cases , police can remove protesters , and arrest them or fine them . Punishments equivalent to civil crimes of incitement to killing or a parking fine . There should be complete freedom to chant political messages , calling for change of Government or sacking of officials or even separatist chanting is allowed  !

GarryB wrote :



"........I disagree, if you go to a protest and it turns into a riot and you start damaging things and hurting people then the police have to deal with that........"


yes they have to deal with ........ " damaging " .......And .......... " hurting " . These are two separate issues . Damage to property needs no use of lethal force . But  hurting someone may require it .


"..........People claiming there is no reason for someone to shoot someone else or they should have shot to wound don't live in the real world..........."

It  is more a case of lack of training and equipment that leads to this conclusion . Non lethal force can be very effective . More effective .


"....If you are being attacked by three armed people you shoot to kill, because shooting to wound might lead them to kill you with their gun... I would never want to be in a position where I have to choose whether to shoot someone or not, but if someone at a riot hyped up on some ideology thinking I am the enemy... that I am some nazi white supremacist... which is what the US media depicted the defendant in this case then it all make things easier to shoot someone....."

We don't live in USA . Thank God . Nor should we apply their standards to our society . A joke for you : A man went to hell  and Satan showed him three choices for his eternal punishment . First he could eat rotten food till eternity ! Second he could be infested with worms till eternity and last he had to stand in sewage , waist deep until eternity . So he said to himself , the last punishment does not look too bad ! I pick number three ! He then stood in sewage , waist deep . Then Satan blew a whistle and  said break is over , everyone's heads under ! You see , the choice of being able , during a Riot , to shoot other Rioters , is no choice at all !


"......But then some people can't back down... I have no evidence, but most of the videos I have seen of black people actually getting shot on purpose was because they were refusing to follow instructions from the person holding the gun......"



Again lack of training and tactics . Simply by surrounding and cornering and immobilizing a crowd  ( kettling ) you control them . They need water and to go to toilet .........Simple .



"......You clearly don't understand. If there is a peaceful protest then that is one thing but when people turn up to a peaceful protest wearing masks and helmets and carrying rocks and iron bars and petrol bombs... and in the case of Hong Kong... Bows... in other words when the peaceful protests are being organised by foreign governments then it can be beyond the polices capacity to deal with it......."


It is hardly ever beyond police capacity to peacefully control and protect . Individual troublemakers can be picked up by snatch squad ! Pushing is allowed by both sides . This reflects Navy law of pushing aside other vessels , a non-lethal democratic resolution ! Even short term occupation of non-essential buildings is allowed . Police simply push back or remove . If numbers increase to levels that any government can not deal with , in this manner , then protesters win legally . Government looses . Resigns !


"......Rittenhouse is smeared up and down the line. The Kenosha police force under political pressure from the municipal government did not do any
enforcement. None. So people had to do their job for them. And both the "victims" of Rittenhouse were hard core criminals neither of them black.
But all you hear from the US fake stream media is how he is a white supremacist. The Orwellian logic is that any criminal who participates in a
BLM riot (which is not hyperbole, it was a real riot) is a saint and equal to black civil rights activists of the 1950s and 60s.

Please, Rittenhouse critics, find another case....... "


Rottenhouse now invited by Trump , is the new socialite of far right ! What good  is it , to support the Right against the Liberals , in terms of advantages in foreign policy towards Iran or Russia or China ? This  is a mystery to me ! Trump started China economic war , killing of Solymani and tearing up the ABM treaty ? No better than Bidden flying B52 around Russian airspace ?? Or crashing Sub into " sand bank " in South China Sea ??

We have to learn from the British , when it comes to crowd control . In my view the practices of protesters and the state are both within legal limits . And should not be exceeded . I only take exceptions to the use of Horses , as it could cause severe injury or death to Horses  and is considered to provide an unfair advantage to the state and is a tool or instrument , same as throwing a Rock !



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qzwATFfA1Lo&has_verified=1

Therefore the use of shotgun and live rounds must stop . Use of tear gas limited or stopped . Use of battons only to arrest violent protesters . Normal protests in open spaces must be allowed . Other protests in towns must be allowed . As long as they do not lead to long term occupation . But even then , removal of protesters should be done by unarmed police , without causing injury to public .

LMFS wrote:User TR1 (very knowledgeable in Russian weapons)...

User TR1 is definitely very knowledgeable in Russian weapons and he used to be member of this forum before he got fed up with blind retarded fanboyism of local idiots and hightailed out of here:

https://www.russiadefence.net/u409

Back then I thought he was just being a drama queen but time has proven me to be very very wrong

PapaDragon wrote:

LMFS wrote:User TR1 (very knowledgeable in Russian weapons)...

User TR1 is definitely very knowledgeable in Russian weapons and he used to be member of this forum before he got fed up with blind retarded fanboyism of local idiots and hightailed out of here:

https://www.russiadefence.net/u409

Back then I thought he was just being a drama queen but time has proven me to be very very wrong

He was intentionally trolling too, plus an avid hater of current government which many, myself included, called him out on.  But he was very knowledgeable and I hated to see him go. I mean, flaming python is same way but we still like him and want him to be around.

Where does TR1 hang around nowadays anyway?

miketheterrible wrote:...Where does TR1 hang around nowadays anyway?

https://forums.spacebattles.com/

I've been seeing him there since he bailed on this fanboy zoo here

And I haven't noticed any hate for government, just zero tolerance for excuses, bullshit and hard cope by fluffers who will do any metal gymnastics to justify any fuckup that Russia makes

PapaDragon wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:...Where does TR1 hang around nowadays anyway?

https://forums.spacebattles.com/

I've been seeing him there since he bailed on this fanboy zoo here

And I haven't noticed any hate for government, just zero tolerance for excuses, bullshit and hard cope by fluffers who will do any metal gymnastics to justify any fuckup that Russia makes

Do we want to start battling it out in this thread because what some guy said or thought some years ago about topics that have nothing to do with the MiG-31?

PapaDragon wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:...Where does TR1 hang around nowadays anyway?

https://forums.spacebattles.com/

I've been seeing him there since he bailed on this fanboy zoo here

And I haven't noticed any hate for government, just zero tolerance for excuses, bullshit and hard cope by fluffers who will do any metal gymnastics to justify any fuckup that Russia makes

Wouldn't call spacebattles forum the be all and end all of objectivity and nature discourse. You pick and choose from a smattering of defense forums and go from there. Sounds like TR1 got in a fight with one or more people on this site. Key is to not take shit personally, and if shitflinging does happen you handle yourself with class (or call the opposing forum members retards which is more fun) and carry on.