God, what a ton of nonsense I had to read. So, if you forgot - that my participation in the topic began after post #114, this one:
I remember quite well what you've posted, but I do want to lay down some basics first before we proceed here, a general timeline if you will.
This little "discussion" started with Hole/Alamo/PD claiming that Russia had become 2nd/3rd in civilian shipbuilding, specifically by cargo hulks. I responded to this claim with, to put it kindly, skepticism.
I stated in post, to provide metrics that proved Russia had done this, to put it clearly, metrics that showed clearly, Russia exceeding Japan or South Korea in civil shipbuilding.
My assumption, that by you responding to my post, that you intended to support the claim that Russia exceeded SK/Japan by some metric in civil shipbuilding. Is this correct? I am quite certain you meant to do this, but GarryB seems to think otherwise.
What did I do? I brought information from various sources, which shows that in reality even MORE ships and ships are being built in Russian shipyards than the number he mocked x_54_u43.
Scorpius, I will try and put this as bluntly and kindly as possible, when you want to compare two things, like shipbuilding industries, or if one car is larger than the other, or faster, or which weightlifter can lift more, you have to provide metrics for BOTH sides.
Here is an example for you, one weightlifter(A) can bench press 60 kilograms, the other weightlifter(B) can bench press 63 kilograms. So now we have two data points, 60 kilograms and 63 kilograms. Now, 63 kilograms is a heavier weight than 60 kilograms, so weightlifter B can lift more than weightlifter A.
Now, you may be feeling insulted in the simplistic manner that I am speaking to you, but unfortunately I kind of have to. The problem with the information that you presented from various sources, either themselves didn't compare to SK/Japan, nor did you compare those figures to SK or Japan to prove that Russia exceeded them.
In essence, what you did, was claim that weightlifter A could lift more than weightlifter B, and then only provide weightlifting records for weightlifter A, and not for weightlifter B. In your second post to me after I called you out for only providing figures for weightlifter A, and providing my own figures for weightlifter B and A, all you did was simply provide pictures of weightlifter A doing weightlifting activities.
What you did cannot be called a comparison, you provided statistics only for Russia, I will quote your sources below again, and go into detail, as I did once before, why they do not prove what you wish them to, correct me if I am wrong, but neither in those paragraphs, nor you yourself actually COMPARED them to Japan or SK. So I am curious as to how you think it proves the claim you are trying to support.
What did the mentioned user do? Instead of admitting that he screwed up and misjudged the situation at Russian shipyards and the number of their orders, he staged a dirty tantrum several pages long.
Really? I misjudged something? Feel free to point out where I did. As for a dirty tantrum, point where I did so? Am I banging on my keyboard or something?
In reality Scorpius, you are simply angry that you are wrong.
At this time, he repeatedly insulted me and many of those present, simultaneously attributing quotes to us that we did not say. He called the data from open official sources nonsense several times.
Where did I insult you? Did I describe your writings and writings of others as dirty tantrums and such?
What quotes have I attributed to you and others that you did not say?
What data did I call nonsense? You will note that I responded to EACH of your quoted sources and explained why they do not support your claim whatsoever, in fact, quite amusingly, the very first one(which spoke of global order portfolio), outright disproved you instantly.
And again I remind you, you did not provide data for South Korea or Japan, which as I have explained to you above, is how a comparison works. A vs B, you provided data for Russia only, and not for Japan or South Korea, which you should do if you wish people to take you seriously when you make a claim.
He spoke several times about the Russian shipbuilding sector in an unacceptably disparaging manner.
Where exactly did I disparage them unacceptably? Did I use slurs to refer to them? Did I insinuate something against them?
I very accurately described the flaws and problems of Russian shipbuilding, if you think it is unacceptable to do so, I don't care.
If you think I am wrong in my assessment(which I have supported with direct interviews from Russian USC director Rakhmanov), do feel free to tell me what you think I got wrong.
Okay, now I intend to finally break him, for this I will ask him to answer very simple questions.
Hilarious, you think to break me? I can assure you Scorpius, the only one here in for a rough ride is you.
As for your very simple questions, I will answer them, but first, I want to go back over the sources you posted, and really get it through your head this time why the sources you posted do not all prove the point you wish to support. Because you have yet to respond to them whatsoever, posting pictures of ships is not at all a response. You did not at all compare Russian civil shipbuilding metrics to SK/Japanese ones.
Let us begin. This is the source that I am using for Japan and will be comparing the figures you give to me. https://www.brsbrokers.com/assets/review_splits/BRS_Review_2020_Shipbuilding.pdf
In 2018, according to the Ministry of Industry and Trade, there were 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards. The laying of 51 vessels took place, 90 vessels were handed over to customers.
Currently (2019) there are 150 vessels in the order portfolio, which is 3% of the global order portfolio for ships.
https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/26426.html
This is my very favorite, right off the bat you prove yourself wrong. I won't use South Korean figures, I will compare only with Japan, as they are ranked third, and SK is ranked second, to make things a bit kinder for Russian shipbuilding. Acceptable to you? If not, I can gladly compare with South Korea as well, but you really won't like that trip.
Let's start with the first part, lets go with the statement of 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards, this figure undoubtedly includes military vessels, even though we are only comparing civil shipbuilding, but I will be kind to you and accept it to make you feel better.
In 2018, Russian Ministry of Industry and Trade states that there were 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards and 90 vessels were handed over to customers, sadly, I can only compare deliveries of ships made, not the number of vessels under construction, but it is of no matter, I am sure you can agree that if deliveries per year are higher, then certainly the amount of ships under construction would certainly be higher.
For Japan, in 2018, 313 ships were delivered. I will do the math for you, 313 is a larger number than 90.
In 2019, as stated by the Ministry, Russia had 150 vessels in it's order portfolio, which by their measure, is 3 percent of the global order portfolio, mind you, I would like to see the metrics behind the way they counted this, but I will take it in good faith.
For comparison, in 2019, by the source I linked above, Japan had an orderbook of 625 vessels, constituting 19 percent market share.
The Russian shipbuilding and shipbuilding market has grown by 67% in value over the year (2020), to 230 billion rubles. The total tonnage increased by 59%, to 542 thousand tons. However, there is a decrease of 8% in units, in total 94 vessels (with a tonnage of more than 50 tons) were delivered to customers in 2020, and about 90 small vessels and boats (with a tonnage of less than 50 tons) were also built. Last year, the ZVEZDA Shipbuilding Complex (managed by a consortium of ROSNEFT, Rosneftegaz and Gazprombank) was particularly distinguished, which took first place in the rating of shipyards in terms of total tonnage and second place (after the Baltic Plant) in terms of the cost of ships delivered. For example, they handed over to Rosnefteflot in 2020 the Aframax head tanker Vladimir Monomakh with a deadweight of 114 thousand tons and a cost of about 31.3 billion rubles.
At the same time, the number of delivered orders decreased in civil shipbuilding by almost 18%, to 62 units, and in military increased by 18%, to 32 ships. For example, sEvmash, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), handed over the nuclear submarine with ballistic missiles Prince Vladimir, Severnaya Verf (part of USC) handed over the corvette Gremyashchy and the frigate Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov, the Baltic Yantar (part of USC) handed over the large amphibious ship pYotr Morgunov to the fleet. In civil shipbuilding, dry cargo ships (17 units were built), barges (13 units) and special vessels of the service fleet are in the lead in terms of the number of ships delivered.
https://zavodfoto.livejournal.com/6704805.html
So again Scorpius, I remind you sincerely that we are comparing CIVILIAN shipbuilding, you understand that in this quote, they directly mention Sevmash, Sev Verf, Yantar, and the MILITARY ships that they have delivered, I hope you understand that this isn't a very acceptable source to provide. I find it highly ironic, that in a debate on CIVILIAN shipbuilding, you provide a quote where it is outright stated that civilian orders declined in terms of deliveries.
And again, they outright state here in 2020, that there were 94 vessels constructed in Russia above 50 tons, so you kinda really scrape the bottom of the barrel here in terms of pumping up statistics. I mean, above 50 tons? Wow.
And again, as I stated before, they mention directly, Vladimir Monomakh, you are aware that this ship was mostly constructed in South Korea, then towed to Zvezda, had it's bow section attached to the vessel, and was passed off as Russian construction? Do you not believe me? Here she is at Hyundai Samho Heavy Industries, South Korea.
According to JSC "TSNIIMF", according to the transport strategy of the Russian Federation for the period up to 2036, in the period from 2020 to 2024, it is planned to build 157 vessels with a total deadweight of 3.5 million tons. Including 36 sea vessels, 95 river-sea commercial vessels and 26 passenger vessels.
https://portnews.ru/news/306885/
Now we come to planned construction, you will note that this is period of five years, which they have summed together, let's compare directly to Japan shall we?
In 2019, this is ONE year, not FIVE, Japan DELIVERED 355 vessels, with 24.5 million tons of total deadweight.
Again, I will do the math for you, 355 vessels is larger than 157, and 24.5 million tons of total deadweight is larger than 3.5 million tons of total deadweight.
This is in one year, not five Scorpius, and a key difference also is that Japan DELIVERED, not planned. So we will see how well these plans turn out for Russia.
As of the end of the first quarter of 2021, at the largest Russian shipbuilding enterprises (included in the register "Shipbuilding: shipyards and Design companies. Results of 2020") construction of about 500 ships and vessels continues. The total volume of ships and vessels under construction and contracted exceeds 2.8 trillion rubles, and the total tonnage is more than 7.4 million tons (translator's note: this means that the average tonnage of EACH of the 500 ships under construction is 14,800 tons, that is, approximately corresponds to a Zumwalt-type destroyer - the data is just for understanding the scale of construction, does not correspond to real statistics). In the future, until 2025, in the field of civil shipbuilding, the priority areas of development are the large-tonnage tanker fleet (75% of the total tonnage), the fishing fleet (5%) and the icebreaker fleet (3%), and in the field of military shipbuilding – the construction of nuclear and diesel submarines (4%).
https://infoline.spb.ru/news/index.php?news=208026
Scorpius, you should know that I read and write Russian, your translation of this, is not correct. Did you think I would not notice?
In the original Russian, the first sentence reads this, "По состоянию на конец I квартала 2021 года, на крупнейших российских судостроительных предприятиях (входящих в реестр «Судостроение: верфи и проектные компании. Итоги 2020 года») продолжается строительство около
500 кораблей и судов."
кораблей is most certainly "ships", but судов is not necessarily "vessels" in this instance. As per Merchant Shipping Code of the Russian Federation, this term refers to any floating non-propelled or self-propelled structure used for near any purpose, including military and civilian functions.
So no, there aren't 500 ships under construction, you have included structures such as barges, floating piers, floating drydocks, floating LNG stations(Novatek's platforms added 1 million tons to this sum alone), oil rigs, , pretty much anything that floats or temporarily sinks under construction got counted here.
I mean, you didn't notice something strange? When future development strategies from Russian shipbuilding organization JSC "TSNIIMF" that you yourself posted for a total FIVE years only included 157 vessels, yet somehow there are now 500? or that Industry of Industry and Trade of Russia states that 170 ships were under construction in 2018, yet in just over 2-3 years, it SKYROCKETED to 500?????
Again Scorpius, you really should have read carefully what you were posting, and actually understanding what it actually said, and how it did not support your claim whatsoever, there are not 500 vessels with average tonnage of 14.8k tons.
And even then, in 2019, with just bulk, tanker, and container type vessels, Japan delivered 355 ships, with 24 million tons deadweight, Just three types of standard vessels, not every floating object under construction, and most certainly not including military vessels in that figure.
I could have really humiliated you here, but I chose not do, so I suggest you adjust your tone towards me when describing me as a "foot" and "throwing dirty tantrums". Because above you have made some truly impressive blunders in trying to support the claim of Russia overtaking SK or Japan.
In the end Scorpius, it is not I who misjudged or screwed up with Russian shipbuilding figures, but you.
I will post again my source here that I used for comparisons with Japan, https://www.brsbrokers.com/assets/review_splits/BRS_Review_2020_Shipbuilding.pdf
If you have issues with it, do let me know, and feel free to provide your own
actual comparisons. As I said before, A vs B. You claimed Russia exceeded Japan, prove it. Show me Russian figures, and show me Japanese ones.
Now, I will proceed to answer your very simple questions.
1. If riverboats are so easy to design and build, then wouldn't it be difficult for him to tell us how many countries in the world produce riverboats similar to those listed below?
For one, these aren't just riverboats, but hydrofoils(the last picture is a hovercraft), and quite a few countries produced them in the past, America, South Korea, China, Japan, Switzerland, USSR(Russia), and more. They fell out of style due to advances in other forms of transport, mainly air travel.
As for modern countries producing modern designs, there are several examples in operation, in several form factors from China, Switzerland, Italy, America, and I could find you even more.

Hong Kong ferry for fast travel.

Reliance, a Seattle hydrofoil ferry.

Swiss water taxi hydrofoil.

Hydrofoil operating off Venice, Italy.
Your third picture, a hovercraft, isn't even really a riverboat, but a hovercraft, and again these are in widespread operation around the world, I am again curious as to why you think this is some exotic technology. Do you believe that hydrofoils and hovercraft are exclusive to Russia?

A Canadian Coast Guard hovercraft operating.

British passenger hovercraft

Singapore rescue hovercraft.
Again, do you think hovercrafts are some high end naval technology? People have converted cars into them.
2. If the list of countries from point 1 is not so large, does this mean that all other countries cannot build such river boats because they do not have similar technologies?
List of countries capable of constructing hydrofoils and hovercraft are quite large, if you looked closely enough at any reasonably developed country, you will find some manufacturer of hydrofoils and hovercraft of various size.
I mean seriously dude, people have converted cars into hovercraft.
If there are no countries such as South Korea, Japan, the USA among the countries from List 1, does this mean that these river boats require much more complex technologies than the construction of container ships?
South Korea, Japan, and America most certainly manufacture and operate either hydrofoils, hovercraft, or both. As I have said before, these craft do not require large amounts of capital investment in areas of technology, they do not require any extreme technology or niche production of certain materials or methods of construction to be of certain economic competitiveness.
In the last picture of the hovercraft, I am quite certain automotive engines and standard metal panel and welding construction is used, and I doubt it's rubber is of some cosmic manufacture.
As for your hydrofoils, I have already posted pictures of foreign ones in operation, they also don't require any extremely advanced technology, standard high power engines, (the Valdai 45R in your post uses foreign MTU engines).
http://www.ckbspk.ru/media/files/valdai45pa.pdf
Here is another newbuild/newdesign hydrofoil of Japanese manufacture, https://global.kawasaki.com/en/corp/newsroom/news/detail/?f=20160617_0758
Is it really true that simpler technologies are used in the construction of the nuclear submarine of project 09852 than in the construction of the Aframax container ship?
Is it so difficult for you to understand that this is CIVILIAN construction that we are talking about? And no, it would be absurd to claim that a container ship is the more technological and demanding product that a military nuclear submarine.
Now let me ask you a simple question, why did Russia directly import foreign know-how and equipment(in mass quantities) for Zvezda shipyard from Samsung Heavy Industries in construction of future large vessels, with emphasis on oil and LNG carriers?
Since obviously Sevmash is a Russian shipyard and premier submarine constructor, why was their knowledge and equipment not used for Zvezda? Why did the Russian government and other state-owned corporations see fit to spend large sums of money in acquisition of foreign assistance, when domestic Sevmash is available?
I tell you the answer, because construction of nuclear submarines is a vastly different field compared to construction of Aframax container vessels, yes, the nuclear submarine is the more advanced product, yet Russia builds nuclear submarines and not Aframaxes(for now).
Why is Russia able to construct advanced nuclear reactors, yet attempted to purchase from Norway, Bergen Engines, (Parent company is Rolls-Royce), a manufacturer of large diesel and gas engines with up to 12 MW of electrical power(in order to power naval vessels)? Is a nuclear reactor more advanced than what is essentially a large piston engine in your opinion?
These are different fields, requiring large amounts of expertise, investment, infrastructure, personnel, etc. Russia had infrastructure, investment, personnel, existing production base for nuclear submarines and nuclear reactors, but not for large sea going vessels and their powerplants.
And again, I remind you, we are discussing civil shipbuilding, not military.
Is the construction of one submarine from point 4 equivalent to the construction of one Aframax container ship?
No, for one, 09582 class submarine is a military vessel, and Aframaxes are civilian, as I keep reminding you.
Let me put it to you this way, USSR constructed Buran spaceplane and Energia launch system for it, it was for a long time the world record holder in being the only spacecraft to autonomously perform it's landing procedure. It is quite the advanced product, yet, why was car manufacturing in USSR so obscenely behind the West? Is a old Audi more advanced product than Buran spaceplane?
I know that there is great difference between comparing a naval submarine/Aframax container vessel, and Buran to a passenger car, but do you understand the point I am trying to make to you? These two creations require different specialties and investment, a key difference is mass production and quality control to go with it. USSR/Russia was and is very good at creating breakthroughs in laboratory demonstrators, mass producing these, ESPECIALLY in civilian spheres, was very difficult and is to this day.
And I again remind you, we are discussing CIVILIAN shipbuilding, Russian MIC products are impressive, but the claim was displacing SK and Japan in civil shipbuilding remember? That it is the post you responded to.
What is the length of the list of countries in the world that are able to develop and build at their shipyards at the same time river vessels from point 1, submarines from point 4 and the notorious Aframax container ships?
Construction of vessels of Belgorod type? Well, only nation that comes close to be able to produce such vessel would USA, though they have long conceded civil shipbuilding market to Asia, as for riverboats and Aframaxes, The list of countries for the former is quite long, as I have said before, people have constructed such types of vessels in their garage, they are not something that operates on principles known only to Russia.
As for Aframaxes, countries capable of building them include China, South Korea, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, and some others.
I again am curious as to what these questions were meant to accomplish? Further drive home the point that you don't understand the difference between military and civil shipbuilding?
I have another question for you, there are more nations on the planet that can produce nuclear weapons, than nations that can produce modern turbine engines(PD-14 generation), is a gas turbine engine a more advanced product that a nuclear warhead? Or is there perhaps nuance to this question and it isn't really a correct comparison to make?
As I said before, we are discussing civil shipbuilding, and in that field, production of large ocean going vessels like tankers, container ships, bulk dry cargo, cruise ships, etc, are what is considered around the world to be the "high-end" of the civil shipbuilding world.
They require advanced infrastructure to construct, such as large weigh-bearing drydocks or boathouses, require advanced construction methods to build(especially in an economically efficient manner) such as large and mega block construction, require specialized foundries and steelmaking methods to produce the ultra large steel sheets from which large sections are cut out, which results in vastly increased rates of construction, the engines used on these vessels are also advanced, these are massive piston engines the size of entire houses.
https://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/731.imgcache.jpg
I believe Wartsila, located in Germany, is the only producer of such massive engines, though these are for the absolute behemoths of the ocean. When you go down to around 100k-200k displacement you have a little bit more options in terms of producer.
So Scorpius, how come all these technologies used in construction of Belgorod not being applied here? It is the more advanced product, what's stopping Russia?
If, after honest answers to these simple questions, the user x_54_u43 will not be able to understand why he screwed up, then I consider it pointless to continue conducting any dialogues with this user at all.
Again, you are the one who made the hilarious mistake of counting every single floating man-made object under construction in Russia to try and beat out Japanese shipyards in construction just three types of vessel, bulk cargo, container, and tanker.
It is you who screwed up, not I. And it is my patience being worn thin, having to explain basic concepts to you, since you cannot even provide figures for Japan to prove the claim that Russia exceeded their civil construction figures.
Speaking of my long silence: unlike the aforementioned user, my time is scheduled almost by the minute - real life, do you know this expression? And so I had to spend as much as 15 minutes of my precious time on explanations refuting stupid accusations against me. So I spent a quarter of an hour of my life teaching some (even unknown to me) fool for FREE, instead of spending that time earning money to pay off my mortgage.
And I had to spend my time teaching you how to actually make a comparison, A vs B. And if you think I am not busy with my own things, you are most wrong. It is free laughs for me, watching you twist and turn trying to somehow concoct some form of comfortable delusion that Russa superceded Japan or South Korea in civil shipbuilding.
Are you finally ready to admit your error? ALAMO did. I respect him for it, you on the other hand accuse of me of tantrums, writing nonsense, insulting and disparaging you and others, Russian shipyards...
Again, I could have been very easily humiliating you this entire post, you provided plenty of material. Literally every single quote you provided me proved you wrong. After being told so in my first response to you, all you responded with were pictures, I mean it's embarrassing really. Do you want me to post in response, South Korean or Japanese shipbuilding yards with vessels under construction? It's absurd.
Even GarryB, a person living on the other side of the planet from me, and not even speaking the same language with me, understood what I wanted to say. But not x_54_u43
So glad GarryB understands what you want to say, but you failed to understand that I asked for metrics proving the claim that Russian civil shipbuilding exceeded Japanese or South Korean one, and you have completely and utterly failed in doing so, continuously using figures that included military vessels.
I await your reply, and I do hope it is something more substantial than pictures this time.