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    Talking bollocks thread #4

    Mir
    Mir


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    Post  Mir Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:45 pm

    Ask the Germans what happened when they took on the Soviets during WWII!

    They bottled them up as best they could and minimised their effect for most of the war.

    Both sides made big mistakes. On the German side they completely underestimated the number of tanks the Soviets had. They also had no idea that the T-34 even existed! Very poor intelligence on their part.

    The Soviets on the other hand moved their defensive line further west but they had no time to rebuild it properly resulting in huge pockets being cut off and surrounded. Stalin's purges didn't help either!
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    Arrow


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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Arrow Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:21 pm

    Mir wrote:As far as Geo-politics go - China and Russia are the enemy. Nothing's going to change that any time soon. In fact it's a good

    Why do you think Russia and China are enemies. Nothing to show it. On the contrary, they are creating an ever larger alliance.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:00 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    Mir wrote:As far as Geo-politics go - China and Russia are the enemy. Nothing's going to change that any time soon. In fact it's a good

    Why do you think Russia and China are enemies.  Nothing to show it.  On the contrary, they are creating an ever larger alliance.

    Read carefully - "They are the enemy" - from a Western perspective. It is also through the stupid actions of the West that China and Russia are becoming major allies.

    Arrow likes this post

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:19 pm

    The west is pathologically delusional. It thinks it has the luxury of designating Russia and China as enemies. It can't afford
    to wipe its own ass.

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    x_54_u43
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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  x_54_u43 Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Yeah, that is why Russia paid Austria to build some modern shipyards in Russia for them... no, wait a minute... I think that was South Korea... but according to you that money was wasted because they are still not even in the game yet...

    Point to where I said the money was wasted, you cannot, because I said no such thing.

    Zvezda, when completed, will be an immense boon to Russian shipbuilding, and is already building needed ships for Russia.

    Only problem that I have with Zvezda is that Russia doesn't have more of them.

    I suspect you are confusing leading the world with being world leading.

    A Zircon anti ship missile is the pinnacle of anti ship missiles.... if Russia sold the production rights to build Zircon missiles for themselves to Algeria... Algeria would become a country that is world leading in terms of anti ship missiles.

    They wouldn't suddenly then be supplying 40% or 50% or any large percentage of the Anti ship missiles being bought around the world, but the missiles they were making would be some of the best you could get from anyone.

    I am pretty sure the South Koreans have an agreement with Russia that the new shipyard they are building and the skills and tools and methods they are revealing will not be used to take work and customers away from South Korea and will be used largely for domestic production at least for a period of years or decades or they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

    But lets not discuss it like adults... lets just have tantrums and bitch and moan...

    Your skill at typing massive paragraphs without stating anything of importance shows well here, as well as avoiding the original subject matter.

    South Korea is a world leader in shipbuilding, because of the methods and technology that they use, as well as by their massive market share that they command in world shipbuilding. End of discussion, no amount of your bitching and moaning will change anything.

    And you should know that the South Korean partners pulled out of the project long ago, no such agreement exists.

    n what context though? A magazine that does articles on River boats might say Russia now dominates production of river boats made in Russia... being a Russian magazine or website... would they be wrong? How many river boats does SK or Japan or China make domestically or for foreign customers?

    Jesus Christ, are you seriously trying to equate production of river boats to production of Aframaxes again?

    I will put it to you as simply as possible, a river boat is easier and simpler to produce than something like an Aframax, you need more people, more machine tools (of higher sophistication), better metallurgy industry, more capable equipment, more training, more everything.

    If you can make Aframaxes or such, you can make riverboats, it doesn't work the other way around.

    The comments were in a thread about Russian civilian shipbuilding and they were happy that it has turned around and is booming... to the point you admit yourself they can barely keep up and are turning some work away.
    Sound to me like they are doing exceptionally well but if you are butt hurt about it then create a civilian ship building thread in an appropriate section for Japan and China and South Korea and anyone else you please and post some articles about how they are all coming through the Covid situation with flying colours and are also struggling to keep up with excessive demand too...

    No Garry, they were specifically claiming that Russia had displaced either South Korea or Japan in civil shipbuilding, specifically cargo hulks.

    This is beyond false, it's just absurd.

    You are the one that said numbers don't matter and tonnage is everything now you are changing your tune because that suits... which is why I probably wont really take you very seriously on this subject any more.

    Holy shit, the mental gymnastics are just incredible, I never said the raw numbers of ships produced didn't matter, its that it is absurd to count river boats in the same category as an Aframax, which is why figures like total deadweight, gross tons, total orderbook exist to account for such differences.

    And again Garry, you are free to provide your own, but you won't because you know you are spouting utter bullshit and cannot admit you are wrong.

    The shipyards build what the customers want... right now they seem to be renewing their river fleets... but they are also producing plenty of tankers and icebreakers and cargo ships too.

    You are the one saying tonnage is the measure... well doesn't that already skew the production values towards heavy sea going vessels already?

    Amusing you think countries need sea going ships and not river going ships... how do you expect them to get raw materials to ports... row boats... then WTF would they need big ocean going ships if their ports are supplied via tiny little row boats?

    The shipyards built what they can, and most Russian shipyards can only really build river vessels and smaller oceangoing vessels, and plenty of tankers, icebreakers, and cargo ship(and more) orders are being sent abroad because there is either no domestic shipyard with the capability to build them, not enough capacity to deliver in a reasonable timescale, too expensive to build domestically because of antiquated equipment and methods, or some combination of these factors.

    Sure tonnage skews things, that's why other metrics exist, gross tons, total orderbook, etc. Aframaxes and such aren't the only thing that every shipyard should try and build, but if you want to compare two countries shipbuilding capability and capacity to figure out whose is better, and one country does produce them and the other doesn't, well, the country that does is better, because these types of vessels are the most demanding from shipbuilding capacity.

    And again Garry, you really need to stop making bullshit up, nowhere on this forum did I say Russia didn't need or doesn't need river vessels, it should produce them because it needs them, and it sure is producing them. It also needs large tankers and carriers for oil and LNG, as well as other exports, and it isn't producing them. Russia's shipbuilding industry should also work on being competitive with other foreign yards for foreign orders, so they can make more money and develop themselves.

    They also make some of the best SSNs and SSBNs and SSKs on the planet, as well as the worlds largest heaviest cruisers are being upgraded and new ships being designed and built as we speak.

    Perhaps they are making dry cargo boats because they need dry cargo boats and they don't need your faggot sea going ship just yet?

    Yet again Garry, we are discussing civil shipbuilding, do try to remember this.

    Also, I find it amusing that you claim that Russia doesn't need "faggot" sea going ships, what other things does Russia not need? Why not just order river ships from abroad? It's certainly feasible.

    Anyways, Russia certainly does need large sea going ships and now, Rosneft has been pushing Zvezda to finish it's orders for some time now, Novatek could have placed orders at Zvezda for LNG carriers but it didn't precisely because it would have taken too long, so your notion that Russia doesn't need sea going vessels is quite absurd, even hilarious.

    Also, why the usage of the slur? It's just sad and cringe at this point.

    But they need 50 people carrying 8kgs to fill the capacity of the 1 person that is carrying the 400kgs to take it overseas... without those river boats those sea boats sit in port waiting for cargo longer doing nothing... or leave the port empty and lose money for the company that owns it.

    I hope you know that there are other ways of transporting cargoes around Russia than just river boat. You know, like trucks and railroads and other things.

    And again, never said that river boats aren't needed or worthless to build, just that a large heavy vessels is the more difficult and impressive thing to build than a river boat, I never placed doubt on river boats usefulness.

    Maybe stop making accusations out of nowhere?

    Learning it from you is like pulling your own teeth... I would rather not bother... even assuming you are right which I now doubt.

    I've repeated this so many times I feel like putting it on a shirt.

    You are MORE than welcome to pull up your own data to back up your assertions, at least Scorpius tried to show something, even if what he showed backfired spectacularly in terms of trying to back up his point.


    So why are you venting like a little bitch because they are behind everyone in everything and cannot be at the big boy table of shipbuilders?

    LMFAO, first you refuse to believe that Russian shipyards have problems with pace and cost of construction due to outdated equipment and methods and now that you have no choice but to see the truth I am venting like a little bitch?

    I informed you of the truth, nothing more, nothing less.

    So the way they are doing it is not as fast as they could possibly be doing it... who cares... they are working at capacity... once they catch up with the work they will be able to switch to the faster method... why are you moaning they are too busy?

    Who cares? Russian customers and taxpayers care, they need ships faster and cheaper than what Russian shipbuilding in general has been able to deliver to them, they are not able to satisfy domestic demand and must take steps to resolve this which involves modernization and reconstruction.

    I am not moaning about them being too busy or about anything, it is you and others that wanted to compare Russian shipbuilding with world leaders such as S. Korea, and now you don't like the result, it is not my problem.


    Bet they were wishing it was the 1990s again and the Americans were telling them they don't need a ship making industry... they have oil and gas and can buy all the ships they need from somewhere else...

    Ironic, it is you arguing that it is no issue that Russian orders are being sent abroad.

    Sounds like the best sort of problems they could hope for...

    You are insane. Not being able to satisfy internal demand for a country such as Russia is a colossal problem.

    The best problems to have are none, with Russia fulfilling its domestic orders on time and budget, and exporting vessels of multiple types to other countries.

    Russia is not a tiny little European country that can provide itself with high incomes and standards of living by exporting some chocolate and watches, it needs large and powerful industries in all spheres, which includes shipbuilding.

    They were once Russia, so a slice of Russia that has been embraced by the EU and the US and the west... rich fertile soils... enormous infrastructure left over from the Soviet period including their largest and best shipyards, not to mention companies and factories making missiles and rockets and engines... they must be in heaven by now...

    They have more in common with the Ukraine than they do with China or South Korea or Japan...

    Good to know you are comfortable with comparing Russia to utter failures of states, must be nice to have such low and achievable standards.

    I on the other hand, believe that Russia should be compared to the best because I think it should be best.

    What a terrible cross for them to bear.

    It is immensely funny to me that non-Russians here think everything is just roses, when I can go to Balancers.ru (which is the largest military forum in Russia covering all subjects) and actually read what actual RuNavy service members and actual shipyard workers who post photos they've taken personally of ships under construction, or direct interviews with high-level people in Russian shipbuilding industry as to what they think of current and future situation for the Russian shipbuilding industry, and I can assure you, they most certainly don't share your opinions. They are quite vocal about the problems being faced by them and they and others want them solved.

    Russian shipyards aren't turning away orders, they do not even place a bid on tenders put out by Russian organizations and companies because they know they cannot fulfill it with the terms desired by the organization.

    Your definition of a world class shipyard would be to seize a large percentage of the worlds demand for building ships... Russia does not need that nor would I think it would want that... even if every shipyard in Russia was upgraded to South Korean level they are not going to suddenly steal all the customers from Japan and China and South Korea so your complaints that every Russian shipyard is not state of the art high tech leading the field is amusing at best.

    First of all, I think it is highly amusing that a white man in a high income western country lectures on and on about how Russia doesn't really need something and doesn't even want that.

    Russia is a country with a 145m population, and in order to be a high income country it will very much need a strong shipbuilding industry for both civil and military, and currently that industry cannot provide for domestic orders and domestic orders will only increase in the future as more and more ships are required for internal transit/transport, and international export. It is also vital as a strong and healthy shipbuilding sector makes military shipbuilding vastly easier to support since you already have economy of scale going and you don't need to worry about shipyards going out of work and then having to pay a lot of money to rebuild capacity if the shipyard dies off in between cycles of construction of new ships. It also needs to not be dependent on foreign components, which is currently is.

    Russia needs a strong shipbuilding industry period. It needs a strong everything industry, maybe not world leading in all spheres, but it needs a strong footing on every industry, it's not New Zealand or Austria where one industry or firm with large export can employ a large enough portion of the populace and provide income to them, and simply import everything else, Russia must become a powerful and commanding country in every sense, there is no other path.

    It is unavoidable isn't it? Shutting down all their shipyards for a year or more to upgrade them would lead to even more Russian money going abroad wouldn't it?

    This is clearly their base alternative for now.

    Yes, it is the best solution for them for now, while expanding capacity, such as Yard No.35, Zvezda, SevVerf's new boathouse, continuing adoption of modern practices of large block construction, new equipment types, etc.

    Russian companies are going to be expanding to sell products around the world totally bypassing the west, for which they will need their own transport means, so going forward their best bet is to produce what they need now and certainly upgrade facilities but I would not bother trying to expand their ship building capacity to meet the worlds needs because the worlds needs are already being met and that would be a total waste of their money.

    Sure, best walk before you can run, and best be able to meet your own domestic need before trying to compete on world market.

    don't agree... their ship building industry does not have to supply the worlds needs for new ships for Russians to have a better standard of living... they do need their own independent shipping fleet that cannot be denied access to the world, but they don't have to provide that capacity for everyone.

    As they expand globally and become a global trader they might end up making ships for other countries, but equally if those countries get their ships made in China or South Korea or Japan it is not a problem for Russia...

    Russia is not looking for exclusive trade with anyone.

    I agree it doesn't need to displace the Asian troika, but meeting it's own need and having this independent shipping fleet would inherently mean having a shipbuilding industry competitive enough to win foreign orders, as otherwise it would be a cost burden on any product shipped by this fleet, a product shipped somewhere on a vessel that took longer to build, was built less efficiently, not as advanced, will not be as competitive.

    There's no way to dance around the fact that Russia needs a strong and capable civil shipbuilding industry.

    Interesting interpretation of a statement that was basically profit margin is not everything.

    Profit margin isn't everything, but it is very vital in the fact that Russian shipbuilding and MIC in general is burdened with very high debts specifically because it doesn't have a very high profit margin to pay off loans, which is in fact the very reason why it is behind, it stuck paying off loans constantly instead of investing into itself.  Big part of this is that military orders don't pay very well at all, RuMOD doesn't want to pay a lot for a product, so it endlessly limits profit margin and twists shipbuilders hands, who often don't have a choice because they don't have any other orders because they are uncompetitive with foreign yards, so they accept, then have no money to improve their equipment and methods, and then RuMOD doesn't place a lot of orders because they are unhappy that the cost and time is so high because the yard is out of date.

    The situation is improving but there is much to be done.

    Again... you flip flop... tonnage is not everything?

    Are you incapable of critical thinking?

    Russian shipbuilding doesn't have the tonnage that other yards have because they don't have efficiency, speed, or capacity.

    The tonnage is the end result, and speed and efficiency is what leads to having lots of tonnage produced.

    And I didn't mention just total deadweight, but also gross tons.

    t is a good way to determine market share in the industry, but not a huge amount else... how efficient are those Chinese yards... for all we know they might be just throwing manpower and money and ending up with heavy products with lots of ballast so they stay upright. Not to slight the Chinese at all, but any country could get into the top ten tonnage delivered by just making lots of very heavy and very simple ships that are not very good but sell because they are cheap.

    LMFAO

    I can assure you, Chinese yards are quite efficient, as well as S.Korea and Japanese ones.

    Seriously Garry, you honestly sound like a butthurt Ukrainian talking about Armata's thin hatches or cardboard armor.

    "heavy products with lots of ballast", you are insane. Chinese yards have such market share because they precisely implemented modern methods of shipbuilding, especially the most important one, which is large block construction using goliath class cranes.

    Yards like Zvezda implement this, with knowledge and equipment imported directly from S.Korea, which is why they are capable of building vessels of tonnage with speed and cost that other yards in Russia aren't capable, with the exception of maybe Zaliv and SevVerf(to some extent).

    You make it sound like a river boat is picking at a scab and bulk cargo carrier is brain surgery... I think it is you that has the delusions of grandeur... they are just trucks and vans to transport stuff from place to place....

    No Garry, it is you who thinks that producing river transports is just as easy to produce as Aframaxes, I suffer from no such delusion.

    If Russia needs a drydock and Turkey can build it for them so that other more urgent things like Icebreakers etc can continue to be built what is the problem.

    If the alternative is no drydock then it makes no sense to save the money for later because not having the dry dock will hold up lots of other things that might depend on having a drydock available in the near future.

    You see no issue? With domestic orders going to a country that shot down a Russian aircraft causing death? How nice.

    And yeah, it is the best temporary solution, but it doesn't mean it should be standard for Russia, it's yards should be able to fulfill its own yards, it is kind of expected and necessary.

    Insignificant orders are going overseas.... like they have always done... plenty of stuff the Soviets had was made in foreign shipyards including Sweden and Finland and eastern european countries too.

    Insignificant? These are vital vessels and platforms, especially with the Northern Fleets repair drydock sinking, and significant funds going abroad that should be going to Russian yards.

    You need a reality check Garry, I get that your life is nice in a developed high income western country, but Russians would very much prefer their own taxpayer money going to domestic yards to develop the country.

    Bullshit, the fact that their shipyards are all running to capacity suggests domestic production is likely providing for domestic needs... lots of technology areas have been blocked by the west via sanctions and they are filling those gaps over time as they can.

    Russia is probably the closest country on the planet to being independent in terms of defence and food and resources... and they are expanding in all directions too.

    You are utterly delusional, I provided you a direct quote that Russia's shipbuilding is 70 percent foreign in terms of components, and you think they satisfy internal needs? or is Rakhmanov and others foreign agents?

    I provided you orders that went abroad as well, how the **** can you think that domestic yards are satisfying internal demand? No shit the yards are full, that's what lack of capacity inherently means, you don't have enough capacity and you need more.

    Everybody does that, but because of sanctions Russia is having to look to its own companies to meet their needs and they are doing it more and more all the time because foreign suppliers are unreliable.

    No Garry, countries that don't have proper shipbuilding do that, countries that do export to the countries that don't. End of story.

    Provided you direct quote from Russian USC CEO of how much is imported, you think that is normal for strong shipbuilding countries? Get your head of your ass.

    the current west centric world that could never happen... there are plenty of countries that would love to buy Russian technology, but a lot of that is not for sale to anyone.

    LOL, make sure to inform Russian producers of civil ships and other systems of how the West blocks other countries from buying their products. CAATSA I know hinders military ones, let me know of instances of this for civil ones, especially shipbuilding.


    That they are head and shoulders above their neighbour despite their neighbour being helped and supported by the rich west, what is not to celebrate for Russia.

    For Ukraine it looks bleak, but for Russia it is a stark reminder of what the west had in store for them... a very lucky escape.

    Comfortable with mediocrity then? Good for you, Russia on the other hand has higher aims, which is why it is building Zvezda and other yards to satisfy increasing domestic demand.


    If Russia had weak easily manipulated politicians who cared about themselves and their own bank balances more than they cared about the country they were supposed to be representing then looking at the Ukraine now is what Russia would be in a few years time... foreign companies owning anything of value and the people struggling to keep their houses warm in winter.

    Putin is making Gazprom pump gas through Ukrainian pipes to make sure they don't suffer too much for the decisions of their government but you can bet Kiev will piss that money away to bank accounts somewhere anyway...

    Europeans love to compare Russia with Poland to show how years and years of money from the EU can make an economy look OK despite fundamental problems... see Europes system is better than Russias system... even when it isn't.

    So you have low standards, good for you. Those in Russia have much higher for themselves.

    Yeah... an industry in pain...

    Product substitution takes time and effort, but wasn't it you whining about paying foreign shipyards to make products for Russia... well WTF is the difference between that and assembling ships in Russia that are totally made of foreign components?

    There is not much. I am also amused that's the only quote you pulled out, why not respond to the other ones? Don't want to see the truth?

    Russian shipyards aren't meeting capacity, USC included, end of story.

    So it does not prove your point so you want it ignored...

    You want to use nominal or adjusted for purchase power parity? Pick one. You are currently using nominal to showcase how efficient apparently Russian shipbuilding is, problem is that in nominal measure, Russian economy is size of Italy. You want to compare things properly? Use purchasing power parity.

    They don't have enough ships to support their carriers and can only operate with friendly nations supplying support ships to operate properly... they wanted 12 destroyers and could only afford 6 of which one is currently operational. Their destroyers have Corvette level air defence missiles... and their anti ship missiles are not hugely different from the same weapon that was in use when they fought in the Falklands War in 1982.

    I told you, let me know when Russia is building carriers the size of QE class. Then you can talk about military shipbuilding capability.

    Don't bullshit me about needs or wants, this is about shipbuilding. One country can build them, the other can't. Pure and simple. You think otherwise? Put some some facts.

    Brand new multirole ships with all brand new sensors and weapon systems that are not inferior to any other country on the planet... and they are taking the time to get them right... there is no struggling involved.

    Really? RuNavy would heavily disagree with you on that, they aren't exactly happy with USC and their bullshit.

    They would in fact, very precisely use the term, "struggling".


    Zumwalt was the future of ships... with a cost effective gun with the range and accuracy of missiles for the price of artillery shells... whose rounds cost more than Russian 5,000km range cruise missiles each...

    Three ships that are useless and cannot be fixed... they wanted to make hundreds... and if their airforce **** up is anything to go by they will be building new build current cruisers and destroyers for about three times the price they made the originals for...

    So American massive failure produces large 17k ton surface combatants, three in total, and Russian super success produces zero.

    Except the Chinese have probably already beaten them to that...

    Doubtful. Chinese military shipbuilding has a ways to go before something on the level of Ford.

    But hey, still better than Russian one by far.

    t has MiG-31K units armed with Kinzhal hypersonic anti carrier missiles... Russia is safe from the navies of HATO. In 10-20 years they will need an expanded navy with destroyers and cruisers and CVNs to protect their shipping around the world because no other country will help, but that is fine.

    So you admit Russian military shipbuilding needs to improve? Finally.

    The F-35s the British are using cost 90K pounds per hour... I would say buy as many F-35s as you can't afford.... it will finish things faster...

    You let me know when they collapse.

    Never been to the US and have no interest in going there. If no one is offended then what is the problem you want me to deal with?

    How the **** can fried chicken be a degrading insult to any ethnic group, that is just stupid.... that perhaps explains the problem is more with you than with me.

    So an African-American or any other African that has an interest in Russian military matters can just go **** themselves?

    You're too busy posting long paragraphs on every fucking thread on the forum instead of perhaps making sure slurs aren't being said on the forum I guess.

    You want someone to be offended? Fine, I'm offended, luckily for you, Lyle already deleted the post, he had some shame, unlike you.

    pend most of my time on that thread deleting stuff PD puts in his personal vendetta against Rogozin... if nobody cares about a comment then why should I... especially if I don't understand it.

    Total bullshit.

    Racist does not mean today what it used to mean... the best way to describe it is anti semitism... anti semiticism used to mean someone who hates jews, but these days it means someone the jews hate.

    I have worked on building sites where maori and islanders are working together where the islanders call the maori the n word and the maori call the islanders coconuts... they are not offended because it is not meant to be offensive when they say it, but if you went on site and said it, you would be in trouble from everyone.

    Racism isn't fixed, it changes by who says it and to whom.

    You say you are white... I can believe that... you say you are not racist... how can I believe that... because it is not for you to judge yourself one way or the other.

    I'm not a racist because I don't believe other races are inferior to me, and I am not a total loser on 4chan because I don't throw around ni**ger and fa**ot, especially if I am on a forum about Russian military, not 4chan.

    But you most certainly have brought it to such level, well done.

    I have modified the rules quite a lot but please point to me the rule against racism, or sexism for that matter... I have not removed any rules on such subjects, so if they were there they should still be there.

    Being racist is not against the rules, as is being Muslim or Australian or Christian or just being uninformed.

    Being racist/sexist is not against the rules? Then fucking add it, this isn't a New Zealand construction site nor 4chan.

    This is basic standard of behavior.

    Racism is part of this world and it is here to stay and there is nothing anyone can do about it...

    Racism shouldn't be part of this forum, and you most certainly can do something about it.

    Good lord, how the **** can you think this is acceptable?

    I don't read every single post.... I am doing this for free... how much time per day do you expect me to dedicate to this forum?

    Considering how much you post, I consider it absurd that you didn't see it, and if you didn't, then post less, and read more. It is your job, and if you are doing it for free, then have someone else do it if you don't like it. You want me do it? I'll gladly help you moderate, as this is the only dedicated English speaking forum on Russian military, and I want the image of Russia, and Russian MIC to improve, and not have clowns on the RUSSIAN SPACE PROGRAM thread talking about "sheboons" and KFC. You think Russian cosmonauts would appreciate you speaking of racial minorities that they have worked with on the ISS and Mir stations like that?

    Hahahaha... yes.... I am the bad guy for using words... American cops shoot black people every day and get a free pass, but I am the one really hurting minorities and non whites by using a word on the internet.

    Have you not heard the western phrase... sticks and stones?

    Americas sticks and stones are B-52s and drone strikes, and sanctions that cause crippling hardship to millions of people... not just food but also medication they block... but I am the problem... right.

    Yeah you are the bad guy genius, this is a forum dedicated in your care by Vladimir79, and forum admins shouldn't be using slurs, and leading by example in what posting behavior should be.

    Unless you want this place to be like 4chan. How many actual Russians even post here anymore? It's populated by non-Russians just circlejerking now. Many excellent posters simply up and left, mainly because of lax moderating standards allowing morons like Vann and others to fester. And all suffer, those who posted here and those who could have come here and actually learned something proper and correct about Russia, but now no longer.

    English really isn't your first language... how can you say growing at an excellent rate in one part of a sentence and talk about hindered in the same sentence?

    For every growth there are limits... bacteria with warmth and food will double in number every half hour or so, but despite statistics suggesting within a few years they will constitute a significant portion of the planets mass... the rapid expansion normally stops when they reach the edge of the petris dish and run out of food.

    The Russian shipbuilding industry should be working on foreign material substitution than max production rates because they are never going to be the worlds biggest producer and supplier of ships to the world...

    Lol, it is exactly as I said, it is growing, but hindered, and if it wasn't hindered, it would be growing even more, and even considered "grown" and "developed".

    I said they have problems too. You are the one wanting to turn it into a dick measuring contest.

    I certainly didn't turn it into a dick measuring contest, I didn't bring up military shipbuilding into civil shipbuilding at all, it was Scorpius who counted them together.

    So you admit then that Russian shipbuilding has worse safety record?


    Britain and America are failing colonial powers that need carriers and force to murder people and make them conform.


    So the build more and operate them more safely, glad you can admit it.


    It is operational and its weapons and systems are tested and working, and yes, currently and in the foreseeable future they can't make hypersonic manouvering anti ship missiles... stupidity... not so much... more blind greed.

    Zumwalts aren't operation and working? I can assure you, they are moving around and shooting, perhaps they didn't get the gun systems they wanted but they are still 17k ton surface combatants. And they were built at a quicker pace than Gorshkov.


    They are retiring them already and buying conventional frigates from Italy... something about their transmissions having serious problems limiting speed to 12 knots or something... and they are not really very well designed for anything... their crew size is too small so they can't maintain them in service properly either...

    They are retiring the early ones, and the fulfill the function they were desired for, small surface combat vessel to fulfill missions that aren't worth using an Arleigh Burke for. Much like a 22160 patrol ship.

    Why would I trust the Americans? They stopped counting how many foreigners get killed in the wars they start and hire mercs to conceal the number of friendlies they lose in conflicts so they can keep fighting long after any reason has passed if there ever was one.

    So you have nothing, got it. You utterly bullshitting.

    Americans use accountants and lawyers instead of generals... they cannot be trusted.

    Any other country ran Guantanimo and the various CIA rendition sights around the world and it would be a war crime, but the US gets a free pass, and puts the whistleblowers in jail, how can I discuss anything with someone who does not know right from wrong.

    Especially one that gets a hard on over dead Russian shipyard workers.

    Go **** yourself, you think I like Russian shipyard workers dying? I certainly don't, you are the one who doesn't give a **** and just wants to lionize Russia and circlejerk on the forum over how great everything is and ignore their deaths.

    Wouldn't trust their numbers if I had them.

    Pathetic, just making shit up as you go, and don't even the balls to admit that you are.

    The failed tests were cold water at depth... they likely stay shallow.

    American subs can't go very deep anyway.

    Sure, Russian subs go deeper, still doesn't make the fact that Sevmash is producing ships slowly, they themselves know it and are entering another phase of modernization to construct them faster.

    Two 40K helicopter carriers...

    So no actually built ships?

    No 17k ton surface combat vessels roaming around anywhere?

    They also identified as Soviet for a while too... a change is as good as a holiday.

    I can assure you, as a Russian speaker, who has been to Russia, talked with Russians, read Russian news, Russian interviews and opinions, they most certainly don't consider themselves to be asian.

    They make ships dude... get over yourself.

    They manufacture 95 percent of the world market, don't insult them by comparing them to Russian civil shipbuilding.

    Quote my post where I say Russia has displaced anyone except the Ukraine.... I don't give a **** about S Korea or Japan or Chinas shipbuilding industry... really I could care less... what is driving Russia and China is the realisation that being independent from the west is the only future they have, and for that they need navies and civilian ships and a maritime fleet.

    I didn't say you did, I said others did, then you showed up defending them.

    So we can put away all the delusions and bullshit now about being no2/3/whatever? Hole, Scorpius, and all the others finally woke up?

    That is not fair.. the Ukraine was being held back by evil Russia and evil Putin and those right wing Fascists were hand picked by Americans no less to lead the country to a bright future with the EU and HATO and the US... Rolling Eyes

    Again, you having mediocre standards is your own problem, Russia should and is holding itself to better.

    Nothing to do with me. The US is controlling the situation by pulling the strings on their puppets in Kiev, trying their best to get Putin and Russia tangled in the strings but it does not seem to be working.... ahh well.... only broke one country there and not anyone that funds my election, so why care about the damage done...

    You're right, nothing to do with you.

    Being better than Ukraine is bare minimum, the most mediocre of measurements.

    Ahh wow... I take everything back.... all my comments of the huge expansion of Russian shipyards... I take it all back because they simply don't have enough cranes to count as having made any progress at all... in fact they should just shoot all their managers like PD has been suggesting over delays to military ship production and testing and just start from scratch instead of building and developing and improving everything in a careful planned and managed way... I mean obviously they have 12 big cranes appear out of thin air or they need to scrap everything and just forget about it...

    It needs to instantly happen or it will never ever happen.... cause that is how things work... Rolling Eyes

    It is others who tried to compare the two, not me. You showed up defending them. Truth hurts I guess.

    This is the talking bollocks section so it works here...

    Ahhhh I understand now, you move everything you don't like here and just shitpost, no need for any actual intelligent conversation here on this forum, just a nice place for you and others to circlejerk and shitpost.

    Except of those three countries only China has the finances to actually pay for so many military vessels itself... and what sort of quality are SK and Japanese military ships... how much domestic technology would they have?

    SK and Japanese military vessels are held in high regard around the world including Russia, you think RuNavy Pacific Fleet thinks poorly about SK Sejeong class?

    I can also assure you they very much have the desire for vessels of similiar size and capabilty. It is the whole point of SevVerf's new boathouse to build new large destroyers.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:14 am

    This discussion turns absurd. scratch
    You can't argue with someone who lives in a closet.
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    Post  Mir Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:16 am

    Russia needs a strong shipbuilding industry period.

    I think we can all agree with that statement.

    Things are looking a lot better than what it was during the 90's, but there is still lots of room for improvement.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:07 am

    Mir wrote:
    Russia needs a strong shipbuilding industry period.

    I think we can all agree with that statement.

    Things are looking a lot better than what it was during the 90's, but there is still lots of room for improvement.

    The real thing is that the things are steadily improving, not only look better.
    Back in 2015, I would not believe that they will be capable to replace the Ukrainian share of supplies.
    But they did. That sole is an amazing achievement.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:25 pm

    It's simple. China is the enemy. Japan and South Korea are vassal states - you won't call your "friends" bad names.
    Most Asian countries are well known for their copying skills and it's not a bad thing. It saves a shitload of money on R&D.

    And that is the core of their problem... when the enemy are dehumanised then there cannot be any future with them about... it has to be a genocidal war of annihilation... which is unachievable...

    Both sides made big mistakes. On the German side they completely underestimated the number of tanks the Soviets had. They also had no idea that the T-34 even existed! Very poor intelligence on their part.

    They ignored history and underestimated their enemy at a genetic level... just like the west does at the moment... the great great great grandchildren of the men and women who fought Germany and Japan and their allies during WWII is not going to surrender to the west because the west is cancelling travel visas or blocking the importation of seat fabric for their ships and land vehicles... or Facebook has been banned.

    The Soviets on the other hand moved their defensive line further west but they had no time to rebuild it properly resulting in huge pockets being cut off and surrounded. Stalin's purges didn't help either!

    The Soviets had a massive defensive line fortified and equipped and they stripped away its resources and weapons and ammo and rendered it useless...

    But then they probably expected all evidence of a German invasion of Russia was a ruse created by Churchill to try to get the Russians into the war to fight against Germany so they weren't fighting on their own... the way the British and the French got the Tsars to fight Germany in WWI and then abandoned them...

    Why do you think Russia and China are enemies. Nothing to show it. On the contrary, they are creating an ever larger alliance.

    He means that to the people complaining about China copying everything China and often Russia are the enemy so it is OK to call them incompetent copiers that don't have an original idea in their heads...

    The amusing thing is that during the Cold War the Soviets were accused of copying anything that was any good that the west had... which made you wonder if they were so dumb they could not come up with their own ideas why did they remain so deadly dangerous right up until the end? .and again now?

    Point to where I said the money was wasted, you cannot, because I said no such thing.

    They have spent scarce resources upgrading and rebuilding their shipyards, but you say they are even more backward that they were before getting further and further buried in jobs they don't have time to tread water let alone progress...

    Only problem that I have with Zvezda is that Russia doesn't have more of them.

    When Zvezda is up and running it can take the slack off other shipyards that can then rennovate and upgrade...

    But the point I keep making.... Russia does not have enough customers for them to need to be the best in the world or even top 5... having 100 Zvezda shipyards each with 20 Goliath cranes would just be a total waste of money WTF would they do with them?

    South Korea is a world leader in shipbuilding, because of the methods and technology that they use, as well as by their massive market share that they command in world shipbuilding. End of discussion, no amount of your bitching and moaning will change anything.

    Your head in the sand ignorance is amusing... I never said anything to the contrary that South Korea is a world leader in ship building... why do you think the Russians got them to upgrade the Zvezda Shipyards for them... because they were cheap? Because they weren't busy?


    And you should know that the South Korean partners pulled out of the project long ago, no such agreement exists.

    Great news... then they don't need to worry about that then... a bit like the Germans pulling out of building their training complexes for their Army and the French handing over Mistral plans and then handing them back their money... they get to complete the projects themselves and completely cut the foreign country out of any longer term benefits... further evidence if any was needed that Russia needs to do things for Russia...

    Jesus Christ, are you seriously trying to equate production of river boats to production of Aframaxes again?

    No, I am saying that riverboats are more use to Russian companies that a few of your container ships you seem super obsessed with.

    I will put it to you as simply as possible, a river boat is easier and simpler to produce than something like an Aframax, you need more people, more machine tools (of higher sophistication), better metallurgy industry, more capable equipment, more training, more everything.

    I will put it to you as simply as possible WTF do they want to make big ships none of their customers have ordered from them... their customers are ordering river boats so obviously that is what they are going to make... or do you think they should make something else to impress their customers at how amazing and wonderful they are and their customers wont mind...

    the future of Russian rivers...

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Ac-com10

    If you can make Aframaxes or such, you can make riverboats, it doesn't work the other way around.

    They are making exactly the number of those ships as they have orders for...



    Holy shit, the mental gymnastics are just incredible, I never said the raw numbers of ships produced didn't matter, its that it is absurd to count river boats in the same category as an Aframax, which is why figures like total deadweight, gross tons, total orderbook exist to account for such differences.

    Verbal gymnastics... either tonnage is all that matters or it isn't. If other factors are important then tonnage is NOT ALL THAT MATTERS.

    See how that works?

    Sure tonnage skews things, that's why other metrics exist, gross tons, total orderbook, etc. Aframaxes and such aren't the only thing that every shipyard should try and build, but if you want to compare two countries shipbuilding capability and capacity to figure out whose is better, and one country does produce them and the other doesn't, well, the country that does is better, because these types of vessels are the most demanding from shipbuilding capacity.

    It might not be obvious yet but are you getting the feeling that no one cares... but saying tonnage is the only measure and now it skews things is amusing for you to admit... maybe they were not the only ones wrong...

    Russia's shipbuilding industry should also work on being competitive with other foreign yards for foreign orders, so they can make more money and develop themselves.

    With the west holding such power over the world there is no point in aiming to supply the world with ships... the US sanctions alone would stop that... we saw that with NSII... it is not a level playing field and never will be.

    Yet again Garry, we are discussing civil shipbuilding, do try to remember this.

    This is the talking bollocks thread, there is no topic to wander off here...

    Also, I find it amusing that you claim that Russia doesn't need "faggot" sea going ships, what other things does Russia not need? Why not just order river ships from abroad? It's certainly feasible.

    You keep going on about your super afro ships like they are something special and needed, which makes me wonder why they are making different types of ships instead...

    We have had shipbuilders themselves complain that their Russian customers want these ships fitted out with foreign equipment and systems, so perhaps Putin needs to ban the import of such things in the next round of sanctions the US imposes on Russia.


    Anyways, Russia certainly does need large sea going ships and now,

    If the need is so urgent they could order them from China and South Korea.

    Rosneft has been pushing Zvezda to finish it's orders for some time now, Novatek could have placed orders at Zvezda for LNG carriers but it didn't precisely because it would have taken too long, so your notion that Russia doesn't need sea going vessels is quite absurd, even hilarious.

    Sounds like they should be investing in Zvezda and helping them get up to speed instead of demanding crap... perhaps if they ordered more Russian components on the ships they do order things would be better too.

    Also, why the usage of the slur? It's just sad and cringe at this point.

    You keep pining on about aframax ships that they are not making... yet they are working their way through their order books and still no aframax ships are being built... it is almost like their customers dont want aframax ships... so why not accuse them of not making deathstars... they would be way more complicated than an aframax... and they are not making them either...

    I hope you know that there are other ways of transporting cargoes around Russia than just river boat. You know, like trucks and railroads and other things.

    And again, never said that river boats aren't needed or worthless to build, just that a large heavy vessels is the more difficult and impressive thing to build than a river boat, I never placed doubt on river boats usefulness.

    Doesn't matter even if you did.... they are making them whether you like them or not... their customers are paying them to make such ships and it is down to what the customer wants.

    I am sure the man painting the bridge of Sydney harbour probably wants to paint landscapes and portraits and all sorts of different things.... but he is paid to paint the bridge...

    You tell him he is not a painter because he does not paint bowls of fruit and nude portraits.

    at least Scorpius tried to show something, even if what he showed backfired spectacularly in terms of trying to back up his point.

    Yeah, Scorpius... you bastard... posting photos of Russian civilian shipping in a Russian civilian shipping thread... WTF were you thinking when you could have bollocked on about how wonderful Japan and South Korea and China are at making ships that it makes Russia look like they can't make a canoe properly on their own without help. Rolling Eyes


    LMFAO, first you refuse to believe that Russian shipyards have problems with pace and cost of construction due to outdated equipment and methods and now that you have no choice but to see the truth I am venting like a little bitch?

    I informed you of the truth, nothing more, nothing less.

    All shipyards have problems and the growing pains the Russian shipyards are suffering with are NORMAL because capacity to produce does not increase and contract exactly the same way demand expands and contracts.

    they need ships faster and cheaper than what Russian shipbuilding in general has been able to deliver to them,

    Then they can order them from South Korea if they need them so damn quick... it is not like they have been buying Russian made ships all this time exclusively so a few more foreign made ships wont hurt... especially if it gives them breathing space to upgrade... if 70% of the ships made in Russia have foreign components then what difference would it make having them built in SK or China?

    Actually buying civilian ships from China or South Korea would free up Russian shipyards for their upgrades but you say they are up to their eyes in hock so the loss of that work would destroy them... good work there buddy.


    I am not moaning about them being too busy or about anything,

    You are moaning that they are too busy to upgrade... that is what you are saying is the problem that stops them being modern and efficient...

    it is not my problem.

    This whole discussion is your problem.

    Ironic, it is you arguing that it is no issue that Russian orders are being sent abroad.

    Russia has been buying ships from foreign countries since it started using ships...

    You are insane. Not being able to satisfy internal demand for a country such as Russia is a colossal problem.

    Why?

    You posted an interview yourself that shows these Russian customers want foreign components on their ships anyway so they are hardly building them completely in Russia now anyway.

    The world will not end if a few ships that end up being used by Russian companies are made in countries that are not Russia... in fact that is probably inevitable.

    Actually I will go on record and say that when the Russian Navy starts increasing its orders for Frigates and Corvettes and starts ordering Destroyers and lays down a Cruiser or two that a lot of shipyards are going to have to drop civilian work and some civilian shipyards might be busy making things for the Navy too.

    OMG... the end of the world.... Rolling Eyes

    The best problems to have are none,

    An oxymoron...

    The best problems to have are none, with Russia fulfilling its domestic orders on time and budget, and exporting vessels of multiple types to other countries.

    Russia is moving from multiple economic collapses in the 1990s, (never good for the shipbuilding industry) through to not really needing a lot of ships for a long period of time to now needing more and more ships... I think you are being childish to think that could happen without any problems at all, which is why I find this frustrating to discuss with you.

    How are Russian shipyards supposed to make the transition from old methods and old tooling to new methods with new all brand new tools and equipment and a fully trained workforce able to fully utilise new said tooling and methods while they are busy building ships that currently occupy ramp space in their ship yards.

    Do you have a magic wand?

    And I am the insane one...


    Russia is not a tiny little European country that can provide itself with high incomes and standards of living by exporting some chocolate and watches, it needs large and powerful industries in all spheres, which includes shipbuilding.

    It currently makes its own military vessels, and makes a significant number of its civilian vessels, but the problem with 5 year and 10 year plans is that they take 5 years or 10 years and don't just happen overnight by magic wand.

    Good to know you are comfortable with comparing Russia to utter failures of states, must be nice to have such low and achievable standards.

    I compare Russia to the US and the west all the time... is it worse when the failed state is obviously a failed state like the Ukraine, or when it is a failed state but thinks everything is OK like the US?

    They are quite vocal about the problems being faced by them and they and others want them solved.

    Nothing solves problems like bitching on the internet...

    Russian shipyards aren't turning away orders, they do not even place a bid on tenders put out by Russian organizations and companies because they know they cannot fulfill it with the terms desired by the organization.

    Sounds like Russian organisations want foreign shit in their ships anyway... but lets keep blaming the shipyards because they just make river boats...

    First of all, I think it is highly amusing that a white man in a high income western country lectures on and on about how Russia doesn't really need something and doesn't even want that.

    Russia has never been the supplier of ships to the entire world and as long as the US and EU are superpowers they never will because those two groups will sanction the hell out of any country wanting to buy Russian... look at NSII... and they were just helping to build a pipeline...

    Russia is a country with a 145m population, and in order to be a high income country it will very much need a strong shipbuilding industry for both civil and military, and currently that industry cannot provide for domestic orders and domestic orders will only increase in the future as more and more ships are required for internal transit/transport, and international export.

    Just because you say something does not make it true... Russia is the victim of western sanction policies that will likely prevent it from ever being a high income country. Their shipbuilding industry is expanding and being invested in and upgrading.... you are unhappy at the pace... of course you are... someone who loves soccer might say not enough is being invested in sports in Russia and they need to step up if they ever want to be world class and that they need teh soccer world cup to be held every 10-15 years in Russia if Russia is ever going to be a high income safe and secure country where people want to live.

    Farmers will say they need to make tractors and trucks, fishermen will want fishing boats... everyone wants something and the payoff will always be a future Russia with good incomes...

    Funny that...

    It is also vital as a strong and healthy shipbuilding sector makes military shipbuilding vastly easier to support since you already have economy of scale going and you don't need to worry about shipyards going out of work and then having to pay a lot of money to rebuild capacity if the shipyard dies off in between cycles of construction of new ships. It also needs to not be dependent on foreign components, which is currently is.

    They need to eliminate foreign components before moving forward other wise they are just assembling for foreign countries... look at the Su-30MKIs... the Indians were complaining about the increasing price but the 20% of foreign components was contributing 80% of the price... foreign bits are bad...

    Licence produce locally or just invest and make better local products.

    Russia needs a strong shipbuilding industry period. It needs a strong everything industry, maybe not world leading in all spheres, but it needs a strong footing on every industry, it's not New Zealand or Austria where one industry or firm with large export can employ a large enough portion of the populace and provide income to them, and simply import everything else, Russia must become a powerful and commanding country in every sense, there is no other path.

    It can already meet its own needs in food and energy, but I agree making their own ships and subs and military equipment is important and will lead to export potential to earn income without any country being able to pull the rug out from under them... like the French with the Mistrals... but at the end of the day Russia needs to be able to defend itself and think for itself and trade with who it pleases, but it does not need to take over from the US or the west and order countries about and invade and bomb...

    Sure, best walk before you can run, and best be able to meet your own domestic need before trying to compete on world market.

    Walk before you can run, but there are things that are not worth developing domestically... Developing your own things is expensive and really only makes sense if there is a market for them.

    For instance making an Il-476 makes a lot of sense because they are widely in use and lots of countries want aircraft in that class in numbers... including to replace older aircraft in that role.

    Making An-225s does not make sense unless it is part of a programme that is linked because the An-225 is a very specialised aircraft that is intended for very specific roles and jobs and most of the countries of the world wont ever need one let alone want to buy one.

    For now if you only need two 1,000 ton Goliath cranes for one shipyard it does not make sense to get your crane making companies to just make two new designs and then test them etc etc... If on the other hand you want 50 of them over the next 25-30 years then it would make sense to get a crane making company to step up and develop a state of the art crane from scratch... and keep making them at a low rate of production for the next 30 years with options to make some extra for export if another country is interested.


    I agree it doesn't need to displace the Asian troika, but meeting it's own need and having this independent shipping fleet would inherently mean having a shipbuilding industry competitive enough to win foreign orders, as otherwise it would be a cost burden on any product shipped by this fleet, a product shipped somewhere on a vessel that took longer to build, was built less efficiently, not as advanced, will not be as competitive.

    It doesn't even need to get into the top 4 to meet its own needs... demanding to be the best in the world is childish and ultimately pointless.

    There's no way to dance around the fact that Russia needs a strong and capable civil shipbuilding industry.

    Of course they want that, but they don't have to displace any other country off any pedestal to achieve that...

    Profit margin isn't everything, but it is very vital in the fact that Russian shipbuilding and MIC in general is burdened with very high debts specifically because it doesn't have a very high profit margin to pay off loans, which is in fact the very reason why it is behind, it stuck paying off loans constantly instead of investing into itself. Big part of this is that military orders don't pay very well at all, RuMOD doesn't want to pay a lot for a product, so it endlessly limits profit margin and twists shipbuilders hands, who often don't have a choice because they don't have any other orders because they are uncompetitive with foreign yards, so they accept, then have no money to improve their equipment and methods, and then RuMOD doesn't place a lot of orders because they are unhappy that the cost and time is so high because the yard is out of date.

    The problem of allowing Shipyards to make big profits is that they do but their other problems don't go away.

    Perhaps government very low interest loans to allow them to build the ships and lose less of the profit which can then be injected into upgrades and improvements...

    Are you incapable of critical thinking?

    Actually took critical thinking when I was at university several decades ago.

    Russian shipbuilding doesn't have the tonnage that other yards have because they don't have efficiency, speed, or capacity.

    Their customers seem to prefer foreign components anyway... they don't have the efficiency or speed or capacity of some foreign yards but that does not mean they can't make ships on time to a schedule... you do understand that even if it takes longer they do know how much longer it takes and can figure that in to the dates they make promises regarding.

    The tonnage is the end result, and speed and efficiency is what leads to having lots of tonnage produced.

    Flip flop again... now tonnage is not everything... it is just the end result... make up your mind.

    I can assure you, Chinese yards are quite efficient, as well as S.Korea and Japanese ones.

    Yeah, they probably don't even wash their hands...

    Seriously Garry, you honestly sound like a butthurt Ukrainian talking about Armata's thin hatches or cardboard armor.

    Well they are the experts on that because they captured dozens the last time the entire Russian army tried to push to Kiev and were bravely pushed back to their original start points by heroic Ukrainian patriots that burn people to death for wanting to speak Russian... guess you must be so proud.

    Yards like Zvezda implement this, with knowledge and equipment imported directly from S.Korea, which is why they are capable of building vessels of tonnage with speed and cost that other yards in Russia aren't capable, with the exception of maybe Zaliv and SevVerf(to some extent).

    And the Russians don't understand any of this of course.... they just threw a dart and it landed in South Korea, which is where they decided to buy new shipbuilding technology and skills... what a lucky break for them... they could just as easily have asked North Korea.


    With domestic orders going to a country that shot down a Russian aircraft causing death? How nice.

    Tell that to the huge number of Russian tourists who choose to go to Turkey as their holiday place of choice.

    Besides what European country has not shot down a Russian plane or killed Russians... it is a hobby of theirs.

    These are vital vessels and platforms, especially with the Northern Fleets repair drydock sinking, and significant funds going abroad that should be going to Russian yards.

    If the Russian yards had capacity they would be making them. Instead they are clearly busy making other things which no doubt will be more useful to Russia.


    You need a reality check Garry, I get that your life is nice in a developed high income western country, but Russians would very much prefer their own taxpayer money going to domestic yards to develop the country.

    A high income western country that might make specialist yachts for billionaires, but no aframaxs and no riverboats either AFAIK.

    You are utterly delusional, I provided you a direct quote that Russia's shipbuilding is 70 percent foreign in terms of components, and you think they satisfy internal needs? or is Rakhmanov and others foreign agents?

    It said in the article that the Shipyards are providing their domestic customers with the foreign components they demand... should you blame the shipyard or the customers?

    I provided you orders that went abroad as well, how the **** can you think that domestic yards are satisfying internal demand? No shit the yards are full, that's what lack of capacity inherently means, you don't have enough capacity and you need more.

    But why does a third world gas station that doesn't make anything and could never approach what China or Japan or South Korea make now even need to bother?

    Those asian countries seem to be making the best stuff fastest and most efficiently.... just make the military stuff in Russia... nationalise all the shipyards and they can just make military stuff.

    No Garry, countries that don't have proper shipbuilding do that, countries that do export to the countries that don't. End of story.

    You are trying to say that Japan and South Korea and China don't import any foreign components to put on the ships they build... would like to see evidence of that...

    Many of the managers in those shipyards in Japan and South Korea and even China will have dutch accents... or accents that don't match the region...


    Provided you direct quote from Russian USC CEO of how much is imported, you think that is normal for strong shipbuilding countries? Get your head of your ass.

    That is exactly what I am saying... there are not many countries that are independent in all areas of technology and software and equipment.

    You are the one claiming Japanese and South Korean ships are all Japanese and all South Korean with no foreign parts at all...

    LOL, make sure to inform Russian producers of civil ships and other systems of how the West blocks other countries from buying their products. CAATSA I know hinders military ones, let me know of instances of this for civil ones, especially shipbuilding.

    The western countries wont sanction such things because they make money... much like the EU would never sanction food exports TO Russia, because it is the EU that suffers.

    What I am saying is that the next time the US imposes more sanctions on Russia then Russia should impose sanctions on western equipment being installed on Russian ships and aircraft... they already had to do foreign material substitution on their military ships... doing the same for civilian ships would expand the market for their Russian rivals/alternative producers.

    which is why it is building Zvezda and other yards to satisfy increasing domestic demand.

    So what the hell is your problem with all these tantrums about it not being fully operational yet?

    Russian shipyards aren't meeting capacity, USC included, end of story.

    No. They aren't meeting demand, which is different... and considering the demand is for 70% foreign content then these customers are fifth columnists that need to be sent to the gulag anyway.

    You want to use nominal or adjusted for purchase power parity? Pick one. You are currently using nominal to showcase how efficient apparently Russian shipbuilding is, problem is that in nominal measure, Russian economy is size of Italy. You want to compare things properly?

    What are you expecting to learn or achieve with any comparison with anything?

    Just because the Russian economy is on paper similar to Italy means nothing at all... Financially they are in totally different places and are more different than apples and oranges... which cannot be compared according to internal law.

    I told you, let me know when Russia is building carriers the size of QE class. Then you can talk about military shipbuilding capability.

    Actually the two 40K ton helicopter carriers weigh rather more than a single QE class ship, and Britain can only afford 6 destroyers armed to the level of corvettes to escort them... comparing Russian navy with the Royal Navy is a joke.

    Don't bullshit me about needs or wants, this is about shipbuilding. One country can build them, the other can't. Pure and simple. You think otherwise? Put some some facts.

    They ordered two carriers to make the first one cheaper and then found out the penalties of then screwing the shipyard that made them by cancelling the second carrier would end up with penalties making the first carrier cost more than it would have cost if they bought it on its own, so they ended up spending even more on two leaving them short of money to buy ships to escort them... so their white elephants will be sitting ducks...

    They are now upgrading their tanks to Challenger III level... just before they withdraw all tanks completely...

    They have just come through a pandemic and can now offer their healthcare workers a 1% pay increase after years of no increases at all, but to steal a sub deal from France to teach the aussies how to make subs they are going to have to spend over 300 billion on Trident which is of zero use in anything except WWIII...

    Russia has very low debt and enormous reserves but is not building ships like sausages like China is... but then if Russian companies want 70% foreign components in their ships and China is faster and more efficient where is the problem in them saving money by having them made in Chinese shipyards... that would free up Russian civilian shipyards to upgrade and improve to the point where they can be as cheap and efficient as any other shipyard around the world, and it would also give Russian companies time to develop world class components that Russian companies are ordering from overseas companies so when teh Russian customers order Russian ships in Russian shipyard with Russian equipment and fittings they can sleep soundly knowing they are not supporting the evil empire of the US or EU anymore. Except when you take those orders away from those Russian shipyards they can't pay the interest on their loans and go bankrupt so the banks own the shipyards now.... I am sure that will work out well because banks never make mistakes and need bailouts...

    They would in fact, very precisely use the term, "struggling".

    Well they are letting banks strangle them with interest... perhaps they should be setting up accounts where these shipyards can borrow at low interest or zero interest rates from funds set aside to help Russian companies grow... they should be able to then invest more in efficiency and then set up their own funds so they don't pay any interest on the money they use for their business to make ships.

    So American massive failure produces large 17k ton surface combatants, three in total, and Russian super success produces zero.

    Yes, of course.... while the American MIC was gauging the US taxpayer for three useless ships the Russian shipyards did nothing at all... produced no ships and no subs at all... hey maybe they could have done their upgrades then?

    Doubtful. Chinese military shipbuilding has a ways to go before something on the level of Ford.

    Not really... US naval fighters are ordinary and inferior to Rafales... and I would say if Russia bothered even an upgraded Su-35 would outdo Hornet and F-35 by quite a margin. The Chinese could develop a naval Su-35 or one of their new stealth fighters could be carried...

    In 20 years time the US will have Mustangs in production... only 500 million each.

    So you admit Russian military shipbuilding needs to improve? Finally.

    What are you talking about improve?

    They have not been naughty and failed to do their homework.

    They are building ships and they are currently building corvettes and frigates and support ships and now helicopter carriers and landing ships... next will be destroyers and cruisers and CVNs, while destroyers and cruisers and their carrier are being upgraded now.

    In what way should they improve?

    Magic wandism does not work in a navy.

    You let me know when they collapse.

    They just cut themselves from their largest market... it is only a matter of time before the Europeans start wondering why their business exchange centre is in London... and their Prime Minister is Boris Johnson...

    So an African-American or any other African that has an interest in Russian military matters can just go **** themselves?

    If someone has a problem with anything anyone says they can make a complaint to a mod who will then deal with it. Normally via private messaging, because the problem is not always the person being complained about.

    You're too busy posting long paragraphs on every fucking thread on the forum instead of perhaps making sure slurs aren't being said on the forum I guess.

    How do I stop slurs from being said. And what is a slur? If I call you a Jafa do you know what that means? I wouldn't obviously because you have probably never even been to Auckland, but don't you understand that some slurs are not considered slurs everywhere the same.

    You want someone to be offended? Fine, I'm offended, luckily for you, Lyle already deleted the post, he had some shame, unlike you.

    Ahhh, so me not seeing a racial slur is worse than the slur itself... do I need to do anything further if it was just a case of you being offended that someone might be actually offended by it.

    The term snowflake springs to mind.

    I would add that complaints or objections are normally directed to mods via private messaging so that peoples feelings are less likely to be hurt, especially if there is a misunderstanding.

    I have had people demand other people get banned but when we discussed the situation the person who complained realised they had misinterpreted the situation and they actually apologised.

    Every case is different.


    I'm not a racist because I don't believe other races are inferior to me, and I am not a total loser on 4chan because I don't throw around ni**ger and fa**ot, especially if I am on a forum about Russian military, not 4chan.

    What is 4chan?

    But you most certainly have brought it to such level, well done.

    Race is a sticky issue... think anyone really has it solved?

    Being racist/sexist is not against the rules? Then fucking add it, this isn't a New Zealand construction site nor 4chan.

    This is basic standard of behavior.

    So racist and sexist people are not allowed to discuss Russian military equipment?

    Racism shouldn't be part of this forum, and you most certainly can do something about it.

    It shouldn't but someone can be very racist but not say anything racist, while a non racist person can use a racial slur and be banned?

    Why?

    So say we get two new african american members and one uses the n word to address the other... do I ban him?

    With the current rules if anyone is offended I will talk to those involved and sort it out. If I am banning because someone MIGHT be offended then I am not going to ban anyone.

    BTW what is Lyles skin colour.

    But isn't that also racism where only whites get banned for using racist terms?


    Good lord, how the **** can you think this is acceptable?

    Do you think banning Lyle will fix everything?

    I am not actually able to ban myself it is the root member, but bannin lyle and not banning myself is a bit hypocritical isn't it?

    Considering how much you post, I consider it absurd that you didn't see it, and if you didn't, then post less, and read more.

    No one else has complained.

    You think Russian cosmonauts would appreciate you speaking of racial minorities that they have worked with on the ISS and Mir stations like that?

    When you have members from all around the world then you are going to hear words you don't like.

    Personally I do have regrets, there was a poster from Turkey who got abuse that I am ashamed to say I didn't do anything about at the time and I should have, but this is a nothing case... a white person offended that a member said a bad word that was not even directed at them.

    I keep the peace... I don't indoctrinate the members and demand conformity of thought or morality.


    Yeah you are the bad guy genius, this is a forum dedicated in your care by Vladimir79, and forum admins shouldn't be using slurs, and leading by example in what posting behavior should be.

    The forum continues.... I can't keep doing this forever... at some stage someone else will take over.


    Unless you want this place to be like 4chan. How many actual Russians even post here anymore?

    I don't know what 4chan is. This forum was for westerners to learn about Russia... Russians already know... but Scorpius is one Russian... you know... that guy who posts photos of river boats instead of ships with big hair. afromaxes.

    Vlad created this website because he was sick of being banned from other english speaking sites for being pro Russian... or not being blindly pro western.

    Many excellent posters simply up and left, mainly because of lax moderating standards allowing morons like Vann and others to fester. A

    Vann isn't racist.

    There is no such thing as a website on the internet that does not have people someone does not like very much... that is what happens and the purpose behind discussion forums to allow different people from different cultures to have their say.

    Look at the world.... Boris Johnson, Creepy Joe... Trump again next time... the inmates are taking over this asylum...

    Lol, it is exactly as I said, it is growing, but hindered, and if it wasn't hindered, it would be growing even more, and even considered "grown" and "developed".

    Your suggesting to help it grow faster would do more damage than is being done now... stopping production at every shipyard and clearing away all the ships in their unfinished states so they can spend a year or more upgrading them would cost them more money and add to their crippling debt... maybe that is a good idea.... bankrupt them and then have the government buy them all up cheap.

    So you admit then that Russian shipbuilding has worse safety record?

    Don't be silly... they wont keep records... they just do what they want when they feel like it and hope for the best I am sure... why let facts get in the way of a good moan?

    So the build more and operate them more safely, glad you can admit it.

    Collapsing empires are not something you model yourself on...

    Producing ships quickly is no substitute for having no soul.


    Zumwalts aren't operation and working? I can assure you, they are moving around and shooting, perhaps they didn't get the gun systems they wanted but they are still 17k ton surface combatants. And they were built at a quicker pace than Gorshkov.

    They planned to make enormous numbers... over 100 ships, but they have cancelled that and are now going to stick with the three made... which really suggests to me that over time there might be a few Gorshkovs made over and above that number of 3 Zumwalts.

    Lets see shall we... oops they already have three Gorshkovs active and another 12 planned...

    Go **** yourself, you think I like Russian shipyard workers dying?

    Keen to gloat over it... perhaps I should be banning you?

    I certainly don't, you are the one who doesn't give a **** and just wants to lionize Russia and circlejerk on the forum over how great everything is and ignore their deaths.

    Waiting for you to claim the west is better at war because they lost less men and women and children during WWII... maybe they are... they start wars every chance they get it seems... not so keen to start conflicts with Russia now though it seems... evidence of progress for Russia there I would say.

    Sure, Russian subs go deeper, still doesn't make the fact that Sevmash is producing ships slowly, they themselves know it and are entering another phase of modernization to construct them faster.

    I am sure they could build them faster if they had a printing press for printing out money like the US does... but they do have such a printing press... and they are too sensible to use it the way the US uses theirs.

    So no actually built ships?

    No 17k ton surface combat vessels roaming around anywhere?

    Three 17K ton problems they are going to have to find a use for... they are going to be a burden on the US Navy for decades to come, but odds are pretty soon the military spending in the US is going to be slashed and they will likely take the chance to get rid of the F-35s and the Zumwalts and any LCSs that might still be around...

    They should sell them to the British... even crap ships are better than no ships...


    I can assure you, as a Russian speaker, who has been to Russia, talked with Russians, read Russian news, Russian interviews and opinions, they most certainly don't consider themselves to be asian.

    Course they don't... but considering the Europeans don't think of them as European then they might need to change those views and embrace a new future where they are accepted and not dictated to or bullied or invaded by countries that pretend to be better but clearly are not.

    They manufacture 95 percent of the world market, don't insult them by comparing them to Russian civil shipbuilding.

    Yeah... Russian shipmakers are shameful... they should be so lucky... especially Japan... talk about racist... they are without peer.

    Again, you having mediocre standards is your own problem, Russia should and is holding itself to better.

    Your demanding instant transformation is the problem here... you are not the first fanboy demanding they match China in production rates or they are nothing.

    Russia has a path and there can be no shortcuts... things like upgrading a shipyard is not like flicking a switch... it takes time and planning and money and will.

    Being better than Ukraine is bare minimum, the most mediocre of measurements.

    A situation entirely of their own creation... who can they blame but themselves?

    It is others who tried to compare the two, not me. You showed up defending them. Truth hurts I guess.

    It is the others it is the others... it is not me mummy...

    The fact that you don't understand that to go from where they were to where they want to be there has to be a transition phase which is what they are going through now. It can't be skipped.

    You are the one comparing Russia going through this phase with countries that went through this phase a while ago.... why are they so useless you say... why are you so short sighted and impatient I am telling you.


    Ahhhh I understand now, you move everything you don't like here and just shitpost, no need for any actual intelligent conversation here on this forum, just a nice place for you and others to circlejerk and shitpost.

    I could just delete it, but there is no way I am allowing this sort of BS in a proper thread.... it clogs them up.

    If you don't want to discuss then you are not obliged to.


    Things are looking a lot better than what it was during the 90's, but there is still lots of room for improvement.

    Even if there were zero problems and they were printing their own money they have an enormous number of new armed ships to build and new support ships and places to park them at the ports they are based and to crew them etc etc.

    Even if their shipbuilding was perfect using all the modern methods and goliath cranes out their ying yangs there would still be problems to deal with.

    But it seems the glass is half empty.

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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  kvs Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:59 pm

    You have epic patience, Garry.

    respekt respekt respekt respekt respekt

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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  x_54_u43 Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:25 am

    GarryB wrote:They have spent scarce resources upgrading and rebuilding their shipyards, but you say they are even more backward that they were before getting further and further buried in jobs they don't have time to tread water let alone progress...

    I said no such thing, stop making shit up.

    When Zvezda is up and running it can take the slack off other shipyards that can then rennovate and upgrade...

    But the point I keep making.... Russia does not have enough customers for them to need to be the best in the world or even top 5... having 100 Zvezda shipyards each with 20 Goliath cranes would just be a total waste of money WTF would they do with them?

    Cool, they can settle for internal demand then, starting with finishing Zvezda, Zaliv, and starting construction of the new shipyard Rosatom wants.

    No need for 100 shipyards with 20 Goliaths.

    Your head in the sand ignorance is amusing... I never said anything to the contrary that South Korea is a world leader in ship building... why do you think the Russians got them to upgrade the Zvezda Shipyards for them... because they were cheap? Because they weren't busy?

    I wrote the phrase that Russia leads in neither gross tonnage or total deadweight, you responded with phrase that "no one said they did", which is false, because people did in fact claim that Russia displaced Japan or South Korea, which is to inherently become a world leader in shipbuilding, which can be very easily judged by those metrics.

    Great news... then they don't need to worry about that then... a bit like the Germans pulling out of building their training complexes for their Army and the French handing over Mistral plans and then handing them back their money... they get to complete the projects themselves and completely cut the foreign country out of any longer term benefits... further evidence if any was needed that Russia needs to do things for Russia...

    We are finally getting somewhere, Russia does indeed needs to do things for Russia, like satisfying internal ship demand for one.

    , I am saying that riverboats are more use to Russian companies that a few of your container ships you seem super obsessed with.

    And guess what Garry? That means **** all if you are trying to compare shipbuilding capabilities to each other. Capability is compared with capability, not with need or want.

    Sure, Russia doesn't need to build as many container vessels or such as South Korea, but just because they don't need to doesn't mean that Russian shipbuilding is now the same level as South Korean one.

    I will put it to you as simply as possible WTF do they want to make big ships none of their customers have ordered from them... their customers are ordering river boats so obviously that is what they are going to make... or do you think they should make something else to impress their customers at how amazing and wonderful they are and their customers wont mind...

    the future of Russian rivers...

    They have placed orders for these big vessels that you have such a vendetta against, Rosneft was forced by the government to place their order for oil tankers specifically at a Russian shipyard, when they realized there weren't any that could do it, they partnered with S.Korea to build a new one, over many changes and turmoil, we have arrived at Zvezda's near completion and beginning of their long journey to building ships for the Russian maritime fleet. And more yards will expand and be built as well.

    They are making exactly the number of those ships as they have orders for...

    They are delayed and overbudget on the orders they have, and don't even bother to place bids on tenders by Russian organizations because they know they cannot pull it off.

    Verbal gymnastics... either tonnage is all that matters or it isn't. If other factors are important then tonnage is NOT ALL THAT MATTERS.

    Point to me where I said tonnage is all that matters? It is not the end all, but it is a pretty good metric.

    And as I have said before, many times, you are free to give your own. Just don't make shit up please.

    It might not be obvious yet but are you getting the feeling that no one cares... but saying tonnage is the only measure and now it skews things is amusing for you to admit... maybe they were not the only ones wrong...

    You want to compare Russian shipbuilding by other metrics? Go ahead, just don't make bullshit up.

    There's total deadweight, gross tons, total orderbook, total ships constructed by class, others as well.

    I find it amusing that you are trying to tell me that no one cares, it is fine by me, want to circlejerk to delusions and fantasies about Russia? Fine, I won't stop you.

    With the west holding such power over the world there is no point in aiming to supply the world with ships... the US sanctions alone would stop that... we saw that with NSII... it is not a level playing field and never will be.

    If West held such power over the world, Russia might as well literally give up and surrender, since if that is the case with shipbuilding, then it is the case in aircraft, cars, pretty much everything.

    Fortunately that is not the case, Russia can perfectly well compete with foreign yards, just needs to get it's industry up to scratch, which it is currently doing.

    You keep going on about your super afro ships like they are something special and needed, which makes me wonder why they are making different types of ships instead...

    We have had shipbuilders themselves complain that their Russian customers want these ships fitted out with foreign equipment and systems, so perhaps Putin needs to ban the import of such things in the next round of sanctions the US imposes on Russia.

    They are the the most demanding types of civil ship to construct, from metallurgy, skills needed, equipment, infrastructure, everything.

    To build them is by nature to be an excellent shipbuilder.

    Fantastic idea to ban those imports, perhaps Russian civil fleet will just sit around with empty unfinished hulls tied to piers while waiting several years for domestic replacements to arrive.

    If the need is so urgent they could order them from China and South Korea.

    Guess what they've done.

    Sounds like they should be investing in Zvezda and helping them get up to speed instead of demanding crap... perhaps if they ordered more Russian components on the ships they do order things would be better too.

    Perhaps if Putin snapped his fingers and made everything perfect as well.

    You keep pining on about aframax ships that they are not making... yet they are working their way through their order books and still no aframax ships are being built... it is almost like their customers dont want aframax ships... so why not accuse them of not making deathstars... they would be way more complicated than an aframax... and they are not making them either...

    Lol, they are trying to build them now at Zvezda, do you know how many oil tankers and LNG tankers the Russian exporters need? Plus coal transporters.  Lots of big ships that you hate are needed by Russia.

    Maybe take your head of the sand and go look at Zvezda, the ships that they are building, and why.

    Doesn't matter even if you did.... they are making them whether you like them or not... their customers are paying them to make such ships and it is down to what the customer wants.

    I am sure the man painting the bridge of Sydney harbour probably wants to paint landscapes and portraits and all sorts of different things.... but he is paid to paint the bridge...

    You tell him he is not a painter because he does not paint bowls of fruit and nude portraits.

    Glad they are renewing their river fleet, still didn't place doubt on river vessels or said I didn't like them.

    Try reading what I write, not making shit up.

    Yeah, Scorpius... you bastard... posting photos of Russian civilian shipping in a Russian civilian shipping thread... WTF were you thinking when you could have bollocked on about how wonderful Japan and South Korea and China are at making ships that it makes Russia look like they can't make a canoe properly on their own without help.

    I asked for metrics that proved Russia had displaced S.Korea, Scorpius came in and pasted quotes from various Russian sources that outright disproved what he was trying to support.

    I think it's pretty funny honestly.

    All shipyards have problems and the growing pains the Russian shipyards are suffering with are NORMAL because capacity to produce does not increase and contract exactly the same way demand expands and contracts.

    There is a difference between an increase in demand and capacity needing to expand, and having almost every single shipyard in the country suffering from either not completed, outdated equipment, outdated infrastructure, not enough workers, etc.

    Honestly, the only shipyard I think that doesn't have problems and can be considered normal would be Pella, ironic honestly.

    Then they can order them from South Korea if they need them so damn quick... it is not like they have been buying Russian made ships all this time exclusively so a few more foreign made ships wont hurt... especially if it gives them breathing space to upgrade... if 70% of the ships made in Russia have foreign components then what difference would it make having them built in SK or China?

    Actually buying civilian ships from China or South Korea would free up Russian shipyards for their upgrades but you say they are up to their eyes in hock so the loss of that work would destroy them... good work there buddy.

    Again, exactly what Zvezda is doing with lead vessel Vladimir Monomakh being almost entirely constructed in South Korea.

    And it's not 70 percent of ships, it's that ships on average have 70 percent or so foreign components.

    And yeah, it would be very painful if not fatal if they stopped working, they have severe debt loads that they need to service. In essence, they are trapped, they need to keep working to pay off loans that they took out to pay loans, but since the debt load is so high, and their work is inefficient and expensive since they do not implement modern shipbuilding methods, they do not make a lot of profit to make meaningful progress on paying back these loans. In order to implement modern shipbuilding methods, they would need to stop work, which means loss of money and going into financial insolvency.

    Makes sense now?

    You are moaning that they are too busy to upgrade... that is what you are saying is the problem that stops them being modern and efficient...

    Current workload is a factor, high debt is another and low profit is another. But the problems are being rectified, since there are ways of expanding capacity without ceasing work. Building new shipyards outright or new boathouses in the case of SevVerf, but in the case of Baltzavod there is no real solution, either build ships with outdated methods and pay the higher price for them, or go into reconstruction for likely more than two years(considering how bad SevVerf had it with just a new boathouse), have most of the Soviet icebreaker fleet reach expiration date with no replacement, and lose NSR transport route capacity. Not exactly a pleasant choice is it?

    This whole discussion is your problem.

    How so? Wasn't I who deluded myself about Russian shipbuilding.

    Russia has been buying ships from foreign countries since it started using ships...

    And? Situation shouldn't change for the better?

    Why?

    You posted an interview yourself that shows these Russian customers want foreign components on their ships anyway so they are hardly building them completely in Russia now anyway.

    The world will not end if a few ships that end up being used by Russian companies are made in countries that are not Russia... in fact that is probably inevitable.

    Actually I will go on record and say that when the Russian Navy starts increasing its orders for Frigates and Corvettes and starts ordering Destroyers and lays down a Cruiser or two that a lot of shipyards are going to have to drop civilian work and some civilian shipyards might be busy making things for the Navy too.

    OMG... the end of the world.... Rolling Eyes

    It certainly is inevitable, and shipyards don't exactly like RuNavy because of their history of withholding payment or paying so little shipyards barely could make a profit.

    An oxymoron...

    We can go on and on about this, but Russian shipbuilding needs to improve dramatically, to say it is in a good place right now is absurd.

    Russia is moving from multiple economic collapses in the 1990s, (never good for the shipbuilding industry) through to not really needing a lot of ships for a long period of time to now needing more and more ships... I think you are being childish to think that could happen without any problems at all, which is why I find this frustrating to discuss with you.

    How are Russian shipyards supposed to make the transition from old methods and old tooling to new methods with new all brand new tools and equipment and a fully trained workforce able to fully utilise new said tooling and methods while they are busy building ships that currently occupy ramp space in their ship yards.

    Do you have a magic wand?

    And I am the insane one...

    What is frustrating to me is how incredibly difficult it is for you to understand what I am saying, to the point I feel that you are perhaps talking to a different person.

    I never laid out any sort of timetable for them to meet, or X amount of Y types of ships built per year or anything. I compared Russian shipbuilding with modern world practice and capability and they are lacking, end of story.

    And there is no magic wand needed, just proper will, funding and planning, some aspects of Russian shipbuilding are better with this than others, it's yard specific, you would actually have to have knowledge of individual yards and their capabilities to know, which you don't.

    Baltzavod, where Kirovs were built and current icebreakers are being built, is bottlenecked by the fact it uses inclined ramps to launch it's vessels, meaning it can't use large block construction methods, and has to launch ships before they are fully completed and finish them at pier, which is a vastly slower process, this is due to the weight limitations on the inclined slipway.

    Severnya Verf, currently occupied with Gorshkov's, some other military ships, and trawlers, uses covered boathouse that limits size and weight of ships to around Gorshkov size IIRC, currently building new 250m boathouse to build new and larger vessels to around 70k ton displacement for military and civil ships. Faced severe delays in the construction of the boathouse.

    Admiralty, submarine builder, pretty much entire occupied with Kilo/Lada orders and has no capacity for civil ships. No expansion planned.

    Sevmash, no intro needed, massive shipyard entirely occupied with nuclear submarines, has already gone under several phases of reconstruction on it's boathouses, currently is renewing machine tool park and switching to new methods of construction, where boathouse will only be assembly point, unlike currently where it is manufacture, testing, and assembly point. Promises to drastically cut time and cost for construction, and increase ability to construct multiple ships at a time(which is already impressive).

    Zvezda, absolute behemoth, but not completed, envisioned for large vessels needed by Russian oil and gas companies, as well as other vessels like Lider class icebreaker, perhaps military projects in the future. Currently having problems with having enough personnel, shipyard capabilities not entirely there yet, and sourcing of large types of steel sheets used for high productivity shipbuilding, which is why there is much controversy around plans to build a new foundry for these types of large steel sheets, as minimum capacity to be profitable in these sheets would be more than what Zvezda would consume. These sheets can be manufactured at already established foundries in western Russia, but their mass transport to Zvezda is difficult, so currently Zvezda sources South Korean metal for it's vessels currently.

    Zaliv, formerly under the control of Ukraine and returned to Russia, suffered massively from lack of investment and work during it's time post USSR, given work for smaller ships to help rejuvenate the yard, then larger ships more fitting for it's size, as it used to produce massive oil tankers for the USSR. It has physical size, and ability to implement large block construction but amount of personnel, training, and outdated equipment holds back the yard.

    Yantar, former German shipyard taken as reparations in Kaliningrad, builds landing ships and other civil ships, no real expansion other than renewal that I am aware of.

    There are other yards, but those are the largest and most significant in general, they have different layouts, types, and problems.

    It currently makes its own military vessels, and makes a significant number of its civilian vessels, but the problem with 5 year and 10 year plans is that they take 5 years or 10 years and don't just happen overnight by magic wand.

    I didn't expect them to.


    I compare Russia to the US and the west all the time... is it worse when the failed state is obviously a failed state like the Ukraine, or when it is a failed state but thinks everything is OK like the US?

    Hilarious. You think US is failed state? Stop being delusional.

    Nothing solves problems like bitching on the internet...

    No bitching, just calmly explaining to you and others what reality actually is.

    Sounds like Russian organisations want foreign shit in their ships anyway... but lets keep blaming the shipyards because they just make river boats...

    Perhaps the foreign shit is significantly better in quality, no need to blame the shipyards I agree, plenty of blame for Russian maritime manufacturers.

    Russia has never been the supplier of ships to the entire world and as long as the US and EU are superpowers they never will because those two groups will sanction the hell out of any country wanting to buy Russian... look at NSII... and they were just helping to build a pipeline...

    There is a big difference between supplying the world with vessels, and meeting domestic demand, I'd love the former, but Russia currently needs the latter.

    Just because you say something does not make it true... Russia is the victim of western sanction policies that will likely prevent it from ever being a high income country. Their shipbuilding industry is expanding and being invested in and upgrading.... you are unhappy at the pace... of course you are... someone who loves soccer might say not enough is being invested in sports in Russia and they need to step up if they ever want to be world class and that they need teh soccer world cup to be held every 10-15 years in Russia if Russia is ever going to be a high income safe and secure country where people want to live.

    Again, I never gave them a timetable to meet, and second of all, Western sanctions aren't really preventing Russians from implementing modern construction methods and expanding capacity, shipyards themselves(and many other internal factors) do plenty well on their own doing that.

    They need to eliminate foreign components before moving forward other wise they are just assembling for foreign countries... look at the Su-30MKIs... the Indians were complaining about the increasing price but the 20% of foreign components was contributing 80% of the price... foreign bits are bad...

    Licence produce locally or just invest and make better local products.

    We are finally getting somewhere.

    It can already meet its own needs in food and energy, but I agree making their own ships and subs and military equipment is important and will lead to export potential to earn income without any country being able to pull the rug out from under them... like the French with the Mistrals... but at the end of the day Russia needs to be able to defend itself and think for itself and trade with who it pleases, but it does not need to take over from the US or the west and order countries about and invade and bomb...

    Food sure, but feeding yourself is kind of bare minimum if you want to be taken seriously as a country, energy still needs work if you are talking about self-sufficiency in that sectory, because I Rosneft, Lukoil, Novatek, Gazprom, etc, all very much use plenty of foreign tech and services.

    Walk before you can run, but there are things that are not worth developing domestically... Developing your own things is expensive and really only makes sense if there is a market for them.

    For instance making an Il-476 makes a lot of sense because they are widely in use and lots of countries want aircraft in that class in numbers... including to replace older aircraft in that role.

    Making An-225s does not make sense unless it is part of a programme that is linked because the An-225 is a very specialised aircraft that is intended for very specific roles and jobs and most of the countries of the world wont ever need one let alone want to buy one.

    For now if you only need two 1,000 ton Goliath cranes for one shipyard it does not make sense to get your crane making companies to just make two new designs and then test them etc etc... If on the other hand you want 50 of them over the next 25-30 years then it would make sense to get a crane making company to step up and develop a state of the art crane from scratch... and keep making them at a low rate of production for the next 30 years with options to make some extra for export if another country is interested.

    I didn't ask for Goliath class cranes to be produced in Russia, I asked just for being able to meet internal demand and at self-sufficiency from foreign components.

    It doesn't even need to get into the top 4 to meet its own needs... demanding to be the best in the world is childish and ultimately pointless.

    I agree, it doesn't need to have highest in the world total deadweight, gross tons, etc, just to be meeting its own demands, and will need best in world or at least close to it in terms of methods and technology implemented in its yards, why waste money?

    Of course they want that, but they don't have to displace any other country off any pedestal to achieve that...

    Sure.

    The problem of allowing Shipyards to make big profits is that they do but their other problems don't go away.

    Perhaps government very low interest loans to allow them to build the ships and lose less of the profit which can then be injected into upgrades and improvements...

    That is indeed current path Russian government is taking, including writing off loans.

    Actually took critical thinking when I was at university several decades ago.

    So apply it then.

    Their customers seem to prefer foreign components anyway... they don't have the efficiency or speed or capacity of some foreign yards but that does not mean they can't make ships on time to a schedule... you do understand that even if it takes longer they do know how much longer it takes and can figure that in to the dates they make promises regarding.

    Sure, they do know they would take longer than a foreign yard, and you have no idea how funny your line about making promises on delivery date.

    You want to know how many deadlines Russian shipyards have blown past in civil and military? Pretty much all of them.

    Flip flop again... now tonnage is not everything... it is just the end result... make up your mind.

    Try actually thinking and reading, tonnage isn't everything, but it is a metric that can be used to compare shipbuilding industries between two or  more countries, and Russia loses out on this metric big time, and not only that one.

    It loses out on this metric(and others) because it isn't as efficient and productive as other yards, which means an order fulfilled by a Russian yard will take more time and money compared to a foreign yard, which means customers will place yards at a foreign yard. Makes sense?

    Yeah, they probably don't even wash their hands...

    You think Chinese don't wash their hands? You indeed are racist, disappointing.

    Well they are the experts on that because they captured dozens the last time the entire Russian army tried to push to Kiev and were bravely pushed back to their original start points by heroic Ukrainian patriots that burn people to death for wanting to speak Russian... guess you must be so proud.

    Why the **** would I be proud?

    Seriously, if I went to the 055 cruiser thread, and replaced the names of the ships and class with Russian ones, the comments there on it would sound just like Ukrainians bitching and moaning about Russia.


    And the Russians don't understand any of this of course.... they just threw a dart and it landed in South Korea, which is where they decided to buy new shipbuilding technology and skills... what a lucky break for them... they could just as easily have asked North Korea.

    Are you schizophrenic? Where did I say any of that shit? I told you clearly and directly the truth, Russia imported shipbuilding techniques and equipment straight from South Korea to in order to be as capable as South Koreans in construction of large ships.

    Tell that to the huge number of Russian tourists who choose to go to Turkey as their holiday place of choice.

    Besides what European country has not shot down a Russian plane or killed Russians... it is a hobby of theirs.

    They go because domestic tourist industry has nowhere near the capacity for them, and what European countries have shot down Russian planes in say the last decade? Or even further back? Do let me know.


    If the Russian yards had capacity they would be making them. Instead they are clearly busy making other things which no doubt will be more useful to Russia.

    If they had the capacity to make them, they would make them, and they don't make them because they cannot. If you honestly think the sinking of that drydock wasn't a severe blow to the Northern Fleet and the Russian Navy as a whole then you are honestly just a simple fanboy.

    A high income western country that might make specialist yachts for billionaires, but no aframaxs and no riverboats either AFAIK.

    New Zealand is a tiny country with a tiny population, it doesn't exactly need to do so do provide itself nice living standards, Russia does need to.

    It said in the article that the Shipyards are providing their domestic customers with the foreign components they demand... should you blame the shipyard or the customers?

    I can certainly blame the civil shipbuilding industry as a whole, or you think shipyards are just it in terms of shipbuilding industry?

    Manufactures most certainly are part of it.

    But why does a third world gas station that doesn't make anything and could never approach what China or Japan or South Korea make now even need to bother?

    Those asian countries seem to be making the best stuff fastest and most efficiently.... just make the military stuff in Russia... nationalise all the shipyards and they can just make military stuff.

    Just give up then? Certainly a low opinion of Russians.

    You are trying to say that Japan and South Korea and China don't import any foreign components to put on the ships they build... would like to see evidence of that...


    Japan/South Korea/China most certainly import components, to what percentage I do not know, I'll do research(a concept unknown to you) and let you know.

    Many of the managers in those shipyards in Japan and South Korea and even China will have dutch accents... or accents that don't match the region...

    Prove it, don't bullshit me, show me how many Dutch are in South Korea/Japan shipyards working there.

    You must really be a racist Garry, you think South Koreans and Japanese are just slaves for proper smart white man to build ships?

    That is exactly what I am saying... there are not many countries that are independent in all areas of technology and software and equipment.

    You are the one claiming Japanese and South Korean ships are all Japanese and all South Korean with no foreign parts at all...

    Not many, but there are, and Russia should be among them. And again, stop fucking making shit up over what I have said Garry, you are so fucking annoying. Where did I claim that SK and Japan don't use foreign parts at all?

    The western countries wont sanction such things because they make money... much like the EU would never sanction food exports TO Russia, because it is the EU that suffers.

    What I am saying is that the next time the US imposes more sanctions on Russia then Russia should impose sanctions on western equipment being installed on Russian ships and aircraft... they already had to do foreign material substitution on their military ships... doing the same for civilian ships would expand the market for their Russian rivals/alternative producers.

    Sanction with no current domestic replacement is not a great solution, unless you Russians to eat less seafood, a vital part of a healthy diet.

    So what the hell is your problem with all these tantrums about it not being fully operational yet?

    Where am I throwing a tantrum? You are the one throwing around slurs like a teenager.

    I told you it isn't operational, deal with it.

    No. They aren't meeting demand, which is different... and considering the demand is for 70% foreign content then these customers are fifth columnists that need to be sent to the gulag anyway.

    Foreigner living a comfy life in a wealthy white country advocating for Russian customers to be sent to work camps, hilarious.

    You are honestly sick in the head.

    What are you expecting to learn or achieve with any comparison with anything?

    Just because the Russian economy is on paper similar to Italy means nothing at all... Financially they are in totally different places and are more different than apples and oranges... which cannot be compared according to internal law.

    Again you do not read at all, you are comparing prices for nominal, when you should be comparing for adjusted purchasing power parity. Unless you like thinking that Russians earn less than subsaharan Africa.

    Take your pick on which one you like more and come back to me.

    Actually the two 40K ton helicopter carriers weigh rather more than a single QE class ship, and Britain can only afford 6 destroyers armed to the level of corvettes to escort them... comparing Russian navy with the Royal Navy is a joke.

    And two QE class ships outweigh two currently unbuilt helicarriers. Who knew?

    And what destroyer is armed at the level of a Russian corvette?

    They ordered two carriers to make the first one cheaper and then found out the penalties of then screwing the shipyard that made them by cancelling the second carrier would end up with penalties making the first carrier cost more than it would have cost if they bought it on its own, so they ended up spending even more on two leaving them short of money to buy ships to escort them... so their white elephants will be sitting ducks...

    They are now upgrading their tanks to Challenger III level... just before they withdraw all tanks completely...

    They have just come through a pandemic and can now offer their healthcare workers a 1% pay increase after years of no increases at all, but to steal a sub deal from France to teach the aussies how to make subs they are going to have to spend over 300 billion on Trident which is of zero use in anything except WWIII...

    Russia has very low debt and enormous reserves but is not building ships like sausages like China is... but then if Russian companies want 70% foreign components in their ships and China is faster and more efficient where is the problem in them saving money by having them made in Chinese shipyards... that would free up Russian civilian shipyards to upgrade and improve to the point where they can be as cheap and efficient as any other shipyard around the world, and it would also give Russian companies time to develop world class components that Russian companies are ordering from overseas companies so when teh Russian customers order Russian ships in Russian shipyard with Russian equipment and fittings they can sleep soundly knowing they are not supporting the evil empire of the US or EU anymore. Except when you take those orders away from those Russian shipyards they can't pay the interest on their loans and go bankrupt so the banks own the shipyards now.... I am sure that will work out well because banks never make mistakes and need bailouts...

    Blah blah blah.

    They ordered and built two carriers, Russia didn't. Thank you for confirming.

    Your statements on Challenger tanks, pandemic, healthcare, Russian debt ceilings, is near useless. We are comparing shipbuilding industries, Britain built two carriers, Russia has built none.

    Well they are letting banks strangle them with interest... perhaps they should be setting up accounts where these shipyards can borrow at low interest or zero interest rates from funds set aside to help Russian companies grow... they should be able to then invest more in efficiency and then set up their own funds so they don't pay any interest on the money they use for their business to make ships.

    Russian budget is not infinite, but they are providing them funding. Why do you think they wrote off a significant portion of MIC debt?

    Biggest beneficiaries were indeed shipyards.

    Yes, of course.... while the American MIC was gauging the US taxpayer for three useless ships the Russian shipyards did nothing at all... produced no ships and no subs at all... hey maybe they could have done their upgrades then?

    Certainly no ships in Zumwalt class that's for certain.

    Not really... US naval fighters are ordinary and inferior to Rafales... and I would say if Russia bothered even an upgraded Su-35 would outdo Hornet and F-35 by quite a margin. The Chinese could develop a naval Su-35 or one of their new stealth fighters could be carried...

    In 20 years time the US will have Mustangs in production... only 500 million each.

    Really? Rafale inferior to F-35? News to me.

    What are you talking about improve?

    They have not been naughty and failed to do their homework.

    They are building ships and they are currently building corvettes and frigates and support ships and now helicopter carriers and landing ships... next will be destroyers and cruisers and CVNs, while destroyers and cruisers and their carrier are being upgraded now.

    In what way should they improve?

    Magic wandism does not work in a navy.

    In what way they should improve? Are you serious? You think waiting to induct a frigate for a decade is normal? There are  a great many things in need of improvement for Russian military shipbuilding.

    RuNavy has been screaming for shorter delivery times for more than a decade.

    They just cut themselves from their largest market... it is only a matter of time before the Europeans start wondering why their business exchange centre is in London... and their Prime Minister is Boris Johnson...

    I suggest you make yourself comfortable, it will be a long wait for you for any of the powerful NATO countries to collapse Soviet style.

    f someone has a problem with anything anyone says they can make a complaint to a mod who will then deal with it. Normally via private messaging, because the problem is not always the person being complained about.

    Again, you think it is normal that on thread for Russian space program there is post talking about how African-American astronauts would go crazy without fried chicken and using "sheboon" as a slur, and I can assure you, it very much is a slur, don't care that you don't know, it's a slur and doesn't belong on a thread dedicated to space exploration.

    ow do I stop slurs from being said. And what is a slur? If I call you a Jafa do you know what that means? I wouldn't obviously because you have probably never even been to Auckland, but don't you understand that some slurs are not considered slurs everywhere the same.

    You are a admin, and you have moderators, you are some powerless victim. And don't play dumb with me, you know what a slur is.

    I don't know what a Jafa is and I don't care, it doesn't belong in a forum dedicated to Russian military matters because forums are a place for discussion, not a New Zealand construction site.

    Ahhh, so me not seeing a racial slur is worse than the slur itself... do I need to do anything further if it was just a case of you being offended that someone might be actually offended by it.

    Is it truly so hard for you to admit that slurs should be used on a forum, especially for one about space exploration.

    What is 4chan?

    Remember the mass shooting that took place in Christchurch, 2019? The shooter posted his manifesto to there.

    Race is a sticky issue... think anyone really has it solved?

    Good god, I'm not asking you solve racial tensions, I'm asking you to keep this place clean and orderly.

    So racist and sexist people are not allowed to discuss Russian military equipment?

    Again, not asking you to start an inquisition on who holds what beliefs in this forum, all you have to do is delete racist and sexist posts, because this is a forum for Russian military, not a shithole.

    shouldn't but someone can be very racist but not say anything racist, while a non racist person can use a racial slur and be banned?

    Why?

    So say we get two new african american members and one uses the n word to address the other... do I ban him?

    With the current rules if anyone is offended I will talk to those involved and sort it out. If I am banning because someone MIGHT be offended then I am not going to ban anyone.

    BTW what is Lyles skin colour.

    But isn't that also racism where only whites get banned for using racist terms?

    Holy shit, all you have to do is make sure slurs and other such trash aren't being thrown about the forum, is this that difficult?

    I didn't even ask you to ban Lyle, or anyone, just no posts using slurs on African American female astronauts, is that somehow too much to ask of you?

    Do you think banning Lyle will fix everything?

    I am not actually able to ban myself it is the root member, but bannin lyle and not banning myself is a bit hypocritical isn't it?

    Didn't ask to ban Lyle, though I would have told him to not post such stuff again, there and done.

    No one else has complained.

    So no personal initiative to delete a post containing racial slurs?

    When you have members from all around the world then you are going to hear words you don't like.

    Personally I do have regrets, there was a poster from Turkey who got abuse that I am ashamed to say I didn't do anything about at the time and I should have, but this is a nothing case... a white person offended that a member said a bad word that was not even directed at them.

    I keep the peace... I don't indoctrinate the members and demand conformity of thought or morality.

    So keep the peace, make sure there are no racial slurs or any sexist trash on the forum, pure and simple.


    The forum continues.... I can't keep doing this forever... at some stage someone else will take over.

    Let's hope your successor has better standards then.

    I don't know what 4chan is. This forum was for westerners to learn about Russia... Russians already know... but Scorpius is one Russian... you know... that guy who posts photos of river boats instead of ships with big hair. afromaxes.

    Vlad created this website because he was sick of being banned from other english speaking sites for being pro Russian... or not being blindly pro western.

    Sure, it was, now it's just circlejerk session pretty much. Scorpius can post his photos but if he wants to prove that Russian civil shipbuilding exceeds South Korean one he will have to post some actual proof, and not spout bullshit and pictures.

    He did not ONCE prove his point. Not ONCE did he actually compare anything. Spouted out some sums that disproved his point, shows some pictures, and left.

    Vlad also said to keep this forum clean in one of his latter posts, in announcements, and respect opinions, even if they are pro-Western.

    Vann isn't racist.

    There is no such thing as a website on the internet that does not have people someone does not like very much... that is what happens and the purpose behind discussion forums to allow different people from different cultures to have their say.

    Look at the world.... Boris Johnson, Creepy Joe... Trump again next time... the inmates are taking over this asylum...

    Vann is a moronic troll or just schizophrenic that spouts nothing but bullshit, his antics actively denigrate the image of the forum and those posting on it, outright hindering it's function, as you put it, to educated Westerners on Russia.

    Your suggesting to help it grow faster would do more damage than is being done now... stopping production at every shipyard and clearing away all the ships in their unfinished states so they can spend a year or more upgrading them would cost them more money and add to their crippling debt... maybe that is a good idea.... bankrupt them and then have the government buy them all up cheap.

    I claimed that they needed to stop production now as well? Again, stop making shit up.

    The current path they are on now is the best one, I didn't insult Russian shipbuilders when they didn't put in bids on certain tenders for Russian organizations, I understood why they did it.

    I also don't demand change instantly, I just simply won't accept people trying to lionize Russian shipbuilding when it clearly isn't what people are claiming it to be.

    Don't be silly... they wont keep records... they just do what they want when they feel like it and hope for the best I am sure... why let facts get in the way of a good moan?

    Pathetic, not even a proper response.

    Collapsing empires are not something you model yourself on...

    Producing ships quickly is no substitute for having no soul.

    Ohhhhh now West has no soul after the delusions come down about mystical Russian shipbuilding, I understand.

    Just shift goalposts more and more, got it.

    They planned to make enormous numbers... over 100 ships, but they have cancelled that and are now going to stick with the three made... which really suggests to me that over time there might be a few Gorshkovs made over and above that number of 3 Zumwalts.

    Lets see shall we... oops they already have three Gorshkovs active and another 12 planned...

    Wonderful, Russia can make 3.5k ton frigates, I am relieved.

    "planned" wonderful word in Russian, with rich history.

    Keen to gloat over it... perhaps I should be banning you?

    Again, Garry, go **** yourself. Where did I gloat over it? You think Russians are happy that shipyard workers are dying in preventable accidents due to greed in implementing safety practices?

    Waiting for you to claim the west is better at war because they lost less men and women and children during WWII... maybe they are... they start wars every chance they get it seems... not so keen to start conflicts with Russia now though it seems... evidence of progress for Russia there I would say.

    You are so pathetic it is beyond words, I talk about safety records in operation of naval vessels in past three decades, and you bring up WW2 and the genocide of Slavs by Fascist Germany?

    Incredible strawmanning, really.

    I am sure they could build them faster if they had a printing press for printing out money like the US does... but they do have such a printing press... and they are too sensible to use it the way the US uses theirs.

    Got it, US subs are built faster, thanks for confirming.

    Three 17K ton problems they are going to have to find a use for... they are going to be a burden on the US Navy for decades to come, but odds are pretty soon the military spending in the US is going to be slashed and they will likely take the chance to get rid of the F-35s and the Zumwalts and any LCSs that might still be around...

    They should sell them to the British... even crap ships are better than no ships...

    They have a use, they are a large oceangoing surface combatant with high amount of VLS capacity.

    You think RuNavy doesn't need or want those? They most certainly need replacement for Slavas and Kirovs.

    Course they don't... but considering the Europeans don't think of them as European then they might need to change those views and embrace a new future where they are accepted and not dictated to or bullied or invaded by countries that pretend to be better but clearly are not.

    Your point being? Russians don't consider themselves Asian, but Eastern European. End of story.

    Yeah... Russian shipmakers are shameful... they should be so lucky... especially Japan... talk about racist... they are without peer.

    No shame on their part, they didn't try to compare themselves to the world leaders, other morons did.

    Your demanding instant transformation is the problem here... you are not the first fanboy demanding they match China in production rates or they are nothing.

    Russia has a path and there can be no shortcuts... things like upgrading a shipyard is not like flicking a switch... it takes time and planning and money and will.

    I demanded no such instant transformation, again making shit up.

    A situation entirely of their own creation... who can they blame but themselves?

    How is this a response in your mind? Who's creation? Blame what and who?

    Ukraine is not a benchmark but a yes or no question as to if you aren't completely braindead.

    It is the others it is the others... it is not me mummy...

    The fact that you don't understand that to go from where they were to where they want to be there has to be a transition phase which is what they are going through now. It can't be skipped.

    You are the one comparing Russia going through this phase with countries that went through this phase a while ago.... why are they so useless you say... why are you so short sighted and impatient I am telling you.

    FFS, where did I demand that they do this all instantly? WHERE? I posted no such thing. People claimed Russia displaced SK or Japan, it's bullshit, I've shown proof, and now people are whining that reality is  not what they want. End of story.

    I could just delete it, but there is no way I am allowing this sort of BS in a proper thread.... it clogs them up.

    If you don't want to discuss then you are not obliged to.

    I'm perfectly willing to discuss, but don't strawman me over me demanding that Russia output as much vessels in the same tonnage as SK or whatever, and certainly don't accuse me of celebrating Russian deaths either.
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    ALAMO


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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:19 am

    I will just leave it here.

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Zrzut_13

    This is what constitutes a big part of 50% share in the world's market.

    Doesn't look like Aframax much, right ? :-)

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    GarryB
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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:39 pm

    Cool, they can settle for internal demand then, starting with finishing Zvezda, Zaliv, and starting construction of the new shipyard Rosatom wants.

    Shock... horror... what do you think they were planning to do?

    No need for 100 shipyards with 20 Goliaths.

    Russia and the Soviet Union have always paid for some products to be made by overseas shipyards... the floating dry dock that was lost with the Kirov on it was made in Sweden. Lots of other ships they had were made in lots of other places including Finland and eastern european countries.

    Making absolutely everything yourself is expensive and will lead to more delays and problems than they are currently having.

    I wrote the phrase that Russia leads in neither gross tonnage or total deadweight, you responded with phrase that "no one said they did", which is false, because people did in fact claim that Russia displaced Japan or South Korea, which is to inherently become a world leader in shipbuilding, which can be very easily judged by those metrics.

    And they said that because they read it in an article... they didn't read it in the tea leaves, but instead of calmly suggesting their information was incorrect and posting the correct information you just acted like a dick.

    You can be civil and say your figures are wrong and you are mistaken, but if we look at what you wrote:


    I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.

    So you were saying they were wrong without even seeing the numbers for yourself.

    We are finally getting somewhere, Russia does indeed needs to do things for Russia, like satisfying internal ship demand for one.

    Yeah... but it has to be done now or yesterday or I can't brag about it on the internet...

    Changes to a shipbuilding industry don't happen overnight or even in a couple of months, they are working on the problems as they can, but how could they possibly be any better... not being shipbuilders of any standing at all... Rolling Eyes

    And guess what Garry? That means **** all if you are trying to compare shipbuilding capabilities to each other. Capability is compared with capability, not with need or want.

    The Russian government isn't funding and supporting shipyards so they can be the worlds best.... they are funding them and supporting them to have a domestic capacity to make the ships and subs and equipment their military and civilian maritime fleet will need over the next few years... having the capacity to make giant container ships is a pathetic waste of capacity for them if what they need are river boats and fishing boats and oil tankers and gas carriers and ice breakers.


    Sure, Russia doesn't need to build as many container vessels or such as South Korea, but just because they don't need to doesn't mean that Russian shipbuilding is now the same level as South Korean one.

    Nobody gives a **** about the South Korean production level... Russia isn't keeping tabs on Thales of France to check to see how many thermal imagers they are making per week so they can call themselves world class in building night vision optics... it does not matter... you have clearly spent too much time around Americans.

    ...and beginning of their long journey to building ships for the Russian maritime fleet. And more yards will expand and be built as well.

    So what is it with all the butt hurt from you?

    They are delayed and overbudget on the orders they have, and don't even bother to place bids on tenders by Russian organizations because they know they cannot pull it off.

    So let them complete the orders they have... let some foreign shipyards take up the slack and get some upgrades and development done so they are better able to make ships... are you really this dumb?


    Point to me where I said tonnage is all that matters? It is not the end all, but it is a pretty good metric.

    And as I have said before, many times, you are free to give your own. Just don't make shit up please.

    Post number 114 in this thread:

    I'm sorry but this is just funny, mind actually giving a concrete figure and source?

    I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.

    I find it amusing that you are trying to tell me that no one cares, it is fine by me, want to circlejerk to delusions and fantasies about Russia? Fine, I won't stop you.

    Yeah, the entire navy section is full of projects that were delivered early and under budget and everyone claimed the Russian shipbuilding industry is ahead of the curve... you are the first to mention their might be any problems with managing very large complex projects like building ships where you have to deal... especially with Russian shipbuilding, about 70 % foreign suppliers of components which have to be ordered and paid for in advance with hard currency, and of course there would never be any delays or problems there right?

    If only there was a medal I could bestow upon you for bringing sunlight to the dark...

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Captai10

    If West held such power over the world, Russia might as well literally give up and surrender, since if that is the case with shipbuilding, then it is the case in aircraft, cars, pretty much everything.

    Why do you think the third world remains the third world... and why do you think there is such panic in the west over the growth of China... that is not allowed to happen... they have contained Russia to a degree and are now making moves to try to contain China... but smaller countries... Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, Libya, Syria... do you think they are struggling because they don't try as hard as white people in the west?

    When the system is not designed for you everything is harder and the rewards are always much less... and a lot more Americans are noticing this because before most of them were in the comfortable middle class that benefited from that trickle down, but now it all goes to the 1% and most Americans are getting screwed like everyone else... should be interesting to see how long that will last...

    Fortunately that is not the case, Russia can perfectly well compete with foreign yards, just needs to get it's industry up to scratch, which it is currently doing.

    Of course the world is free and fair and lets let quality of product and market forces control everything... which is why Sputnik V which seems to have the best efficacy of any Covid vaccine, is the cheapest and easiest to handle has not passed tests for Europe or the World Health Organisation yet... despite being the first available on the market it is being blocked from most markets. Or Russian gas is not politically effected at all... completely level playing field there.

    But then what about Kalashnikov... how many can you buy there in the states... must be really easy to pick and choose any model you want.... military types might be restricted by the civilian sporting models must be easy to get and of course all that ammo they produce...

    How naive are you?

    They are the the most demanding types of civil ship to construct, from metallurgy, skills needed, equipment, infrastructure, everything.

    Well I suppose having to operate at depths in the arctic ocean they would need much higher quality steels or titaniums than deep diving submarines...

    To build them is by nature to be an excellent shipbuilder.

    And then the contradiction... are you saying large container ships were not possible to build before these countries adopted their new method of ship building using large cranes?

    Hard to believe.

    Fantastic idea to ban those imports, perhaps Russian civil fleet will just sit around with empty unfinished hulls tied to piers while waiting several years for domestic replacements to arrive.

    Hilarious... now you care about Russian customers getting the ships they want on time... which is obvious because without that factor there is no problem... they can just wait longer and shipyards can continue to build them the old ways.

    Guess what they've done

    Problem solved then.

    Perhaps if Putin snapped his fingers and made everything perfect as well.

    Ordering Russian parts instead of foreign parts would save needing foreign currencies and exchange rates and the Russian components will likely be rather cheaper too.

    Lol, they are trying to build them now at Zvezda, do you know how many oil tankers and LNG tankers the Russian exporters need? Plus coal transporters. Lots of big ships that you hate are needed by Russia.

    Wow... sounds like they could have some impressive tonnage figures on their books shortly... they might even overtake fiji in the ship building stakes... pirat

    Maybe take your head of the sand and go look at Zvezda, the ships that they are building, and why.

    Not really my problem... I am sure they are doing what needs to be done... and if there are problems or delays there are likely very good reasons for that too.

    Try reading what I write, not making shit up.

    But anyone can make river boats... teach a 10 year old to whittle and pretty soon he will be making river boats... making river boats does not make you a shipbuilder remember...

    I asked for metrics that proved Russia had displaced S.Korea, Scorpius came in and pasted quotes from various Russian sources that outright disproved what he was trying to support.

    I think it's pretty funny honestly.


    That is right... I forgot he is your bitch and has to do everything you say when you say it... or not.

    Or he might have read you complaining that Russian shipyards can't make ships and he posted some photos of ships they have made recently... what a total unfeeling bastard, what was he thinking... What a Face

    There is a difference between an increase in demand and capacity needing to expand, and having almost every single shipyard in the country suffering from either not completed, outdated equipment, outdated infrastructure, not enough workers, etc.

    In magic land someone pops up and says... OK guys you have spent the last decade or two not doing too much and trying to keep afloat but now we have to ship oil and gas and we have stuff that has to go by ship as well so despite the fact that there has been no time to prepare here are a large number of orders... get them done as fast as you can... you might start by upgrading your skeleton crew of workers to enough to build ships, though every other shipyard will be doing the same so good luck with that, and now you are too busy to make any upgrades... and you need to balance the budgets to PAY for upgrades that don't just fall from the sky by the way, while trying to buy foreign currency to pay 70% of the component makers for their products because that is what the customer is wanting... and by the way work on your health and safety because people on the internet are commenting that you are a bit slack.

    It is a bit like making cars. I am old enough to remember when you bought a new British or European car in the 1970s and 80s after 20,000kms you would need to get rings and bearings checked and even cylinders rebored and all sorts of work done on them to get them to a minimum level of reliability.

    Then the Japs started offloading their cars in New Zealand and it was amazing... headlights that actually worked at night to let you see where you were going, engines that started first time and every time... water and oil and petrol and that was all you worried about.

    The Europeans and Americans are not world class in terms of cars, the Japs passed them decades ago, and the South Koreans have some interesting brands, but China is developing and progressing and will soon displace them all...

    In the 1990s if you went to any city in China and the streets were full of bicycles... cars were rare... but you could breathe.

    Skip ahead five years and all the bikes were replaced by cars in the cities... and the major goal of western car companies was to increase the number of cars in rural areas too.

    Russia is in a growth process a transition from not making stuff to having too much stuff to make right now and trying to get up to speed.

    That is normal.... every country went through that... many countries have been through that, been world class and then slipped back to ordinary... or making nothing... without serious political support many shipyards die, those that continue are terribly inefficient no matter what methods they use because they don't have enough customers.

    And yeah, it would be very painful if not fatal if they stopped working, they have severe debt loads that they need to service.

    Well obviously they need to sort out their funding structure because otherwise they are just pissing money away to the banks... and why should they benefit more from Russia building ships than the shipyards that make the boats.

    In order to implement modern shipbuilding methods, they would need to stop work, which means loss of money and going into financial insolvency.

    Makes sense now?

    Bullshit. They need zero interest loans like western banks get from each other and then they can work their way out of debt... they also need some government support via some rules regarding what you can or cannot put in ships of Russian production... how about ships operating in the Russian north sea route will need to be built in Russia... having and have Russian equipment and fittings to ensure they will be safe in the arctic conditions... safety first...


    Current workload is a factor, high debt is another and low profit is another. But the problems are being rectified, since there are ways of expanding capacity without ceasing work. Building new shipyards outright or new boathouses in the case of SevVerf, but in the case of Baltzavod there is no real solution, either build ships with outdated methods and pay the higher price for them, or go into reconstruction for likely more than two years(considering how bad SevVerf had it with just a new boathouse), have most of the Soviet icebreaker fleet reach expiration date with no replacement, and lose NSR transport route capacity. Not exactly a pleasant choice is it?

    Lose the NSR to who? The rate the ice is melting they wont be needing ice breakers half the year anyway. Transfer some of the work to another shipyard while upgrades are made and then shift it back and then with the sudden light speed production capacity do everyone elses work while they all get upgrades too... Rolling Eyes

    And? Situation shouldn't change for the better?

    It is not ever going to change... Russia will always buy some ships and products from other countries.... but right now you are pressing the accelerator and demanding progress and the engine is just grinding gears... either push in the clutch and put it in gear properly or get the **** out of the drivers seat and let someone who knows what they are doing drive this.

    We can go on and on about this, but Russian shipbuilding needs to improve dramatically, to say it is in a good place right now is absurd.

    The reason we go on and on is your inability to read what I have been saying.

    Upgrading an entire ship building industry in any country takes time and you are in the middle of the process asking why everything isn't perfect and working like countries that have SPENT TRILLIONS getting this right...

    Gee... I don't know... this is of course my first rodeo because in 2008 when the Russian military realised there were problems and started funding things and buying UAVS from overseas the overwhelming majority of butt hurt was... UAVS are dumb simple model planes children make... why do they need to buy them from Israel... ignoring the billions of dollars and years of development and refinement the Israelis and west spent to get to where they were with those childrens toys.

    It has now been 12 years practically and now their Army and Air Force are pretty transformed and their Navy is getting there but then you would know it is harder to build a new navy than to make some new tanks.... cardboard is cheap is it not?

    But no, the managers of Russian shipyards should all be fired for incompetence... they should be producing ships like the Chinese do despite not having orders for them... or anyone to pay for them... or the capacity all those new build shipyards have...


    I never laid out any sort of timetable for them to meet, or X amount of Y types of ships built per year or anything. I compared Russian shipbuilding with modern world practice and capability and they are lacking, end of story.

    Yeah, I know... in a period of 30 years they went from disintegration of their supply and production network with the Soviet Union collapsing, and several economic collapses during the 1990s and then quite a period when the Navy was too big and had more ships and subs than they new what to do with... which is always excellent for people who build new ships, and now that demand is picking up tempo and their lack of new infrastructure is showing problems you are complaining that they are shit... what a bunch of incompetent losers... what were you saying before about setting the bar low... at least I have not taken down the bar and started beating them with it.

    And there is no magic wand needed, just proper will, funding and planning, some aspects of Russian shipbuilding are better with this than others, it's yard specific, you would actually have to have knowledge of individual yards and their capabilities to know, which you don't.

    So now you admit the problems don't exist across the board so saying they are all lacking like you did 30 seconds ago is an outright lie.

    You plan around your situation which includes funding, the magic wand is needed if you want to be able to get unlimited funding and access to extra docks and areas to enable easier shifting of work while upgrades that are paid with this unlimited money are being implemented...


    Severnya Verf, currently occupied with Gorshkov's, some other military ships, and trawlers, uses covered boathouse that limits size and weight of ships to around Gorshkov size IIRC, currently building new 250m boathouse to build new and larger vessels to around 70k ton displacement for military and civil ships. Faced severe delays in the construction of the boathouse.

    Delays are inevidable... why do you think there will never be delays?

    Sorry... forgot your magic wand...

    But obviously it is the manager at that shipyard for not having or not using his magic wand.

    Admiralty, submarine builder, pretty much entire occupied with Kilo/Lada orders and has no capacity for civil ships. No expansion planned.

    Kilos and Ladas are vastly more important than any civilian ships.

    Hilarious. You think US is failed state? Stop being delusional.

    If you neighbour was up to his eyeballs in debt and his solution to his economic problems is not to spend less or balance his income with his expenses... his solution is printing money... yeah... fine upstanding role model of a man... especially the way he promotes his building and car repair companies by going around burning down buildings and ramming cars on the street to stoke up business...

    There is a big difference between supplying the world with vessels, and meeting domestic demand, I'd love the former, but Russia currently needs the latter.

    Why set your self such hard limits... why not world supplier of magic wands too?


    Food sure, but feeding yourself is kind of bare minimum if you want to be taken seriously as a country,

    Most cannot.... Russia couldn't even when they obviously could because cheap food from the EU made production of food in Russia uncompetitive.

    energy still needs work if you are talking about self-sufficiency in that sectory, because I Rosneft, Lukoil, Novatek, Gazprom, etc, all very much use plenty of foreign tech and services.

    That is fine, those foreign countries wont cut Russia off because they need Russias oil.

    I didn't ask for Goliath class cranes to be produced in Russia, I asked just for being able to meet internal demand and at self-sufficiency from foreign components.

    When Zvezda got its first crane I seem to remember it was PD who complained that it was foreign made and not Russian made... why are they buying foreign cranes... well if they only have two WTF is the point in setting up production of a product you have to design yourself of which you plan to make 2 of... it is just silly.

    That is indeed current path Russian government is taking, including writing off loans.

    So what is with all this butt hurt coming from you.... waaa... there are problems.... well they can fix those.... but there are these problems... but they are being fixed... but they aren't already fixed and producing at max potential capacity... well that would be a goal but it takes time for solutions to have the desired effect... waaa the problems...

    So apply it then.

    You are the one demanding instant solutions.

    You want to know how many deadlines Russian shipyards have blown past in civil and military? Pretty much all of them.

    I don't believe that, because everything is so fucking perfect and everyone else is meeting their deadlines and the Orcs are not sabotaging production... I mean when you are building a ship that is supposed to be ready first and suddenly the Orcs refuse to deliver engines that were paid for then obviously you just pop that ship out of the queue and everything just leap frogs ahead and keeps to its original time table because obviously the US coup de ta in Kiev was to be expected and everything that followed after that was already listed in all their plans... only a real dickhead would demand they stuck to the plan and launched those ships without core parts to keep everything else on schedule because obviously river boats are vastly the most critical types of ships being built anywhere... you said so yourself.


    Try actually thinking and reading, tonnage isn't everything, but it is a metric that can be used to compare shipbuilding industries between two or more countries, and Russia loses out on this metric big time, and not only that one.

    I'm sorry but this is just funny, mind actually giving a concrete figure and source?

    I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.

    Sounds like you disagree with yourself.

    It loses out on this metric(and others) because it isn't as efficient and productive as other yards, which means an order fulfilled by a Russian yard will take more time and money compared to a foreign yard, which means customers will place yards at a foreign yard. Makes sense?

    No it does not make sense at all... how the **** can they be overloaded with local orders if their terrible record and slow building process and time and money wastages mean they will shift their orders to foreign yards... if that were actually true the problems would solve themselves... Obviously...

    You think Chinese don't wash their hands? You indeed are racist, disappointing.

    I am suggesting they don't have time to wash their hands because that is an inefficient waste of time, but the snow flake obviously has to make it racist.

    Who was talking about strawman arguments...


    Why the **** would I be proud?

    You believe T-14s have cardboard armour, or was it just flame bait?


    Seriously, if I went to the 055 cruiser thread, and replaced the names of the ships and class with Russian ones, the comments there on it would sound just like Ukrainians bitching and moaning about Russia.

    Really don't understand what you are talking about here.... why would Chinese ships have Russian names? and who would complain about it even if you did... everyone would just think you were mental.

    Are you schizophrenic? Where did I say any of that shit? I told you clearly and directly the truth, Russia imported shipbuilding techniques and equipment straight from South Korea to in order to be as capable as South Koreans in construction of large ships.

    So let them fucking implement the new concepts and designs as well as build the infrastructure necessary in their shipyards to change the way they do things and stop bleating like a little bitch about how it is not done already.

    They are changing more than one shipyard and those shipyards are already working on projects... you don't believe in magic wands so you must realise even if they stopped all other work it will take 2-3 years or more and because they are not going to stop work it might take 5 or 6 or more years.

    Grow up.


    They go because domestic tourist industry has nowhere near the capacity for them, and what European countries have shot down Russian planes in say the last decade? Or even further back? Do let me know.

    Polish and Baltic politicians regularly threaten to shoot down Russian aircraft... the US of A is supporting terrorist organisations around the world many of whom try to kill Russians too...


    If they had the capacity to make them, they would make them, and they don't make them because they cannot

    Wrong... invalid logic. Just because they choose to make something more important or urgent does not mean they cannot make the other things... it means they choose not to make them and make the more important products the more urgent products instead.

    If you honestly think the sinking of that drydock wasn't a severe blow to the Northern Fleet and the Russian Navy as a whole then you are honestly just a simple fanboy.

    It is a floating dock get over it. Think of it as a river boat... that can sink and refloat itself.

    New Zealand is a tiny country with a tiny population, it doesn't exactly need to do so do provide itself nice living standards, Russia does need to.

    Again.... logic requires proof, there are plenty of countries with good living standards that doe not dominate the world ship production ranks... you provide no link between the two things so there is no logical proof that Russia creating a world class ship building capacity will equate to better living standards for Russians.

    It may always be cheaper and faster to get China to make their civilian ships for them and that is fine... when I upgrade my computer I don't feel the need to develop and produce my own new hardware, for which I would then need to develop my own software for my new custom rig... it is just cheaper to buy the parts off the shelf and build my own...

    I can certainly blame the civil shipbuilding industry as a whole, or you think shipyards are just it in terms of shipbuilding industry?

    Manufactures most certainly are part of it.

    Yeah, they should have anticipated that after a long period of neglect and misuse that all of a sudden they were going to get lots of customers wanting new ships made with so much foreign parts that they would need sizable loans before they could even get the money for the raw materials let alone arrange the import licences for all the foreign components... assuming they are not french and wont come under sanction half way through production... yeah, those stupid shipyards... I mean banks can tell years in advance when their corrupt practices will lead to a housing bubble and then a collapse, why should shipyards not be expected to see the future with this level of accuracy that they can put aside money they don't have yet for jobs they have not done yet to pay for upgrades they don't need yet because they don't have any orders... until they do.... like now... when it is too late to plan for because the money you got from the customer is tied up in materials and equipment and labour to actually make the boats.

    Maybe a combination of forcing local companies to buy local but also agree to a 30% mark up for profit so they can make enough money to start dealing with debt and upgrade and improve infrastructure instead of just paying interest to banks with all their profits.

    In fact with all the facts and figures in front of them they should be able to work out jobs that work out costing them money and just cancelling those deals... that will free up time and space and money for upgrades while the important stuff gets done.

    I am no expert but I rather suspect that is what they are actually doing.

    Just give up then? Certainly a low opinion of Russians.

    Time and money and efficiency.... if they can't do it cheaper and faster then let someone who can do that... it is not about giving up, it is about common sense.

    Do you buy food, or do you grow your own.... a bit risky relying on others to grow your food for you... you don't know what chemicals they use to make it look nice and last longer... nobody and no country has the resources or indeed the inclination to be totally self sufficient... it is not actually efficient to do everything for yourself... there will be a lot of ships they just want to use that are the same no matter where they are made, that do the same job and probably have all the same foreign components in them anyway... Russia does not need to fight every single battle... choosing battles is much more important.

    Putin showed that with his EU food ban... without their stupid sanctions allowing him to reciprocate there is no way their food ban would hold up under WTO rules... except as a response to EU sanctions on Russia... lucky Russia.

    Japan/South Korea/China most certainly import components, to what percentage I do not know, I'll do research(a concept unknown to you) and let you know.

    So they have years at the top of the shipbuilding trade and they still import parts... so why should backward lowly Russia even consider such a handicap to its customer base at this stage... maybe later on...

    Although the Russian Navy is already doing this anyway... they didn't get a choice.

    Prove it, don't bullshit me, show me how many Dutch are in South Korea/Japan shipyards working there.

    You must really be a racist Garry, you think South Koreans and Japanese are just slaves for proper smart white man to build ships?

    Oh please... Russians are not natural world class ship builders but you think South Korean and Japanese are?

    The Dutch and British and many other European countries have long histories in engineering and shipbuilding and have kept up with new technology... but guess what... the UK and the EU are not the hubs of shipbuilding they used to be so there wont be as many jobs there, certainly not as high paying as in Asian countries where they are working hard and pumping out ships and need expertise... I am sure it all originally came from South Korea and Japan and they didn't head hunt talent in other countries that were at the time leaders in the field of ship building to build up their industry.

    Yes, I must be fucking racist... obviously race is the main reason they are good at ship building because the last 600 years it has been South Korea and Japan dominating the water ways of the world with all their junk that was state of the art... not like the western shit the white europeans were exploring the world on...

    Europe didn't have have any Goliath cranes in the 1920s... fucking amateurs... it is because they are white of course.

    Where did I claim that SK and Japan don't use foreign parts at all?

    Sorry, when you said Russia needs to emulate SK and the Japs I assumed when you complained at the foreign content of ships made in Russia that that was also something they needed to emulate.

    Sanction with no current domestic replacement is not a great solution, unless you Russians to eat less seafood, a vital part of a healthy diet.

    The western sanctions on bits and pieces applies to the Russian Navy, so I would expect most of the navigation and other gear they use will already have Russian equivalents... besides they could buy all the Chinese bits until Russian bits are ready... I assume they make all their own bits too... I know the US doesn't...

    Foreigner living a comfy life in a wealthy white country advocating for Russian customers to be sent to work camps, hilarious.

    They are supporting my comfortable life by buying my evil bits and pieces instead of Russian parts made by Russian workers in high paying jobs improving their standard of living...

    You are honestly sick in the head.

    So Russian companies that order ships from Russian shipyards that demand foreign parts be used are not the problem?

    You are not being very clear.

    Again you do not read at all, you are comparing prices for nominal, when you should be comparing for adjusted purchasing power parity. Unless you like thinking that Russians earn less than subsaharan Africa.

    Yeah, that is maths speak for I am a fucking censored .

    What you are saying is that you want to compare to countries that are not comparable using a factor that distorts the comparison so much there is no point in making such a stupid comparison in the first place, but you soldier on anyway and use statistics BS tricks of adjustment and alteration to create a result that looks more realistic.

    Why bother?

    Why not just say Italy and Russia are not comparable by any metric at all and leave it at that... but no... use math tools for purposes they were never intended for to make up shit numbers you can then talk shit about....ooooh... the result is 3.2 which means you just need a magic wand to fix their ship building industry and everything will be fine. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    What a crock of shit.

    Take your pick on which one you like more and come back to me.

    You offered Italy as a candidate for comparison... you might as well offered a chocolate pudding for the value involved.


    And two QE class ships outweigh two currently unbuilt helicarriers. Who knew?

    They have two carriers they can't use together with destroyers that can't operate in the warm waters of the Med without breaking down because the water isn't cold enough to cool the engines... Russia has just perfected the designs of some corvettes and some frigates and is testing an upgrade of the latter following which they plan to put them in serial production.... they are already better armed than any British surface ship which gets called a destroyer, and the new upgraded Gorshkov with increased launch tubes is even better and they expect to make more than 6...

    Needless to say Boris vs Putin...

    And what destroyer is armed at the level of a Russian corvette?

    The HMS Daring class air defence destroyer has 48 tubes for a SAM system inferior to Redut, a 4.5 inch gun that has nothing special about it, and 8 Harpoon anti ship missiles... again very ordinary...

    They ordered and built two carriers, Russia didn't. Thank you for confirming.

    They got stuck with two white elephants they don't have the support ships to operate properly, which means when one is away sailing in the South China sea there are no ships left at all to patrol local waters around the UK.

    Your statements on Challenger tanks, pandemic, healthcare, Russian debt ceilings, is near useless. We are comparing shipbuilding industries, Britain built two carriers, Russia has built none.

    Of course, context means nothing, and their overall situations are meaningless... you clearly want Russia to aspire to be a naval power like Britain is now... what did you say about aiming low?

    Biggest beneficiaries were indeed shipyards.

    So they are costing money.... cut them lose and get their civilian stuff made in China...

    Certainly no ships in Zumwalt class that's for certain.

    Of course not. Turd class is a class of its own.

    Anyone can squat and drop a Zumwalt... real ships that work and are useful require planning...

    Really? Rafale inferior to F-35? News to me.

    Reading english is possibly an important part of misunderstanding.

    I said:

    US naval fighters are ordinary(not very good) and inferior (not as good as...) to Rafales

    You think waiting to induct a frigate for a decade is normal?

    Working to test and construct a Frigate with all new weapons and sensor systems never used before on Russian or Soviet Frigates might take a bit of time... especially on a budget.... the communications and sensors on these ships are astounding and fully in line with the latest stuff the Italians could make for the US...

    Their new Frigates will be able to hit conventional land targets 5,000km away, and reach 1,000km with a land attack and anti ship missile that moves at more than 3km per second... of course it is going to take time... they are upgrading everything... and it is more multirole than a Kirov class cruiser... but obviously with less on board weapons in terms of numbers.

    RuNavy has been screaming for shorter delivery times for more than a decade.

    Well they could play ball and order some fucking boats in a series instead of one offs that always take longer and are harder to make.

    I suggest you make yourself comfortable, it will be a long wait for you for any of the powerful NATO countries to collapse Soviet style.

    The fact that you think there are powerful HATO countries means you are already lost.

    Any child can have a tantrum and break stuff like Libya and Syria... who wants close relations with a child?

    When countries in the middle east want to talk about the current situation they don't go to London or Washington... and African countries are starting to do the same.


    Again, you think it is normal that on thread for Russian space program there is post talking about how African-American astronauts would go crazy without fried chicken and using "sheboon" as a slur, and I can assure you, it very much is a slur, don't care that you don't know, it's a slur and doesn't belong on a thread dedicated to space exploration.

    But you are certain that no astronaut or cosmonaut up there would not want fried chicken, because paste is wonderful and satisfies more than a KFC bucket ever could. The fact that you think that is a racist slur is amusing because I quite like KFC too, but a brand of food is racism... how do KFC continue to trade?

    You are a admin, and you have moderators, you are some powerless victim. And don't play dumb with me, you know what a slur is.

    Like calling someone a moron or a bad admin... I understand what a slur is.

    I also am very familiar with the old rules and what the new rules now are, and it mentions disrespecting mods and doing as mods tell you... written by Vlad.

    I could have banned dozens of members on this forum for breaking those rules... I didn't make them up, they are there for all to see... but Vlad made this site out of frustration at being banned for his views and assuming other rules are not broken, I think he would not be too upset if I banned these people, but maybe I care less what you think of me as I really don't know you.

    I personally think banning is a very last resort... there are exceptions.

    One member told another member to kill themselves... that is an easy ban... no need to think much about that.

    But this is essentialy a group of strangers that chat about topics they are mutually interested in... some seem to come for arguments, but that often gets boring quickly. Sometimes some people will say things they regret or wouldn't normally say in public because they get comfortable and think they are amongst friends.

    I don't think members should be banned outright for making mistakes... especially when the person offended is offended for others.

    If an african american person does want to pop in and have a chat about what they have to put up with and why it is offensive then I think that makes this a better forum, not a worse one for hiding behind virtue signalling offense.


    I don't know what a Jafa is and I don't care, it doesn't belong in a forum dedicated to Russian military matters because forums are a place for discussion, not a New Zealand construction site.

    Every country is made up of cities and regions and there is bigotry agaisnt different regions in every country.

    In this case Jafa is Just Another Fucking Aucklander... it just identifies an arrogant person from up north who thinks they are better than everyone else around them when they travel south.

    Every country has that sort of casual racism, but most of the time they don't even care if you say it to their faces because they have probably called us much worse.... usually sheep shagger or some such crap.

    Slurs are usually used to get a rise when other rude words don't seem to work... why ban them when they clearly work.

    Is it truly so hard for you to admit that slurs should be used on a forum, especially for one about space exploration.

    We are adults and adults do more than say bad words... some times they do what the words mean.

    I would certainly discourage bad language in any thread, but some people are frustrating to talk to sometimes and I know you know exactly what I mean.

    Banning someone for the use of a word is a very drastic thing... especially when no one was so offended that they bothered to mention it till several days after it was posted.

    Remember the mass shooting that took place in Christchurch, 2019? The shooter posted his manifesto to there.

    So it is a website for asshole murdering extremists... thanks for the comparison... really glad you are not over reacting to this.

    Good god, I'm not asking you solve racial tensions, I'm asking you to keep this place clean and orderly.

    He deleted it himself... I call that a much better result than having me wipe your asses for you like you are kids.


    Again, not asking you to start an inquisition on who holds what beliefs in this forum, all you have to do is delete racist and sexist posts, because this is a forum for Russian military, not a shithole.

    It was an example of very bad humour... some people like that.

    Did you hear about what the poor blind, dumb, deaf girl with no arms and no legs and cerebral palsy got for Christmas?

    Cancer.

    That isn't racist or sexist... not to everyones tastes but where to draw the line?

    Holy shit, all you have to do is make sure slurs and other such trash aren't being thrown about the forum, is this that difficult?

    Yes it is.

    I can look every day, but there is no way I read every single post from Vann or Tsavo Lion.... I certainly don't take teh time to watch every single video link posted as some of them I don't find interesting, though to be fair some of them I do... A good indication will be a like from me...

    It is much easier when members read these posts themselves and anything that offends you or you think might be close to the bone can send me a private message... no drama.... no police state action.... tell me where it is and what is so offensive or lowers the tone of the website and I will take a look at it and talk to the person who posted it. I don't mention who complained because that is not important... I just discuss with the person about what they posted and why they posted it and most of the time they agree it was out of line and remove it themselves with no further action needed.

    Obviously if they repeatedly get complaints over and over then I would look at further action, but some people get offended at the slightest thing... for every person that posts on this or any forum there are literally hundreds of people who never post and I suspect either they don't want to look a fool and be bullied or they know they might come across as offensive.

    Of course there will be plenty who don't think they can contribute and just want to listen in on the discussions.

    Probably not this one though.

    I didn't even ask you to ban Lyle, or anyone, just no posts using slurs on African American female astronauts, is that somehow too much to ask of you?

    The post was removed by the person who posted it.... lesson perhaps learned... isn't that the best possible outcome in this situation?

    BTW have you read some of the posts of our French bodybuilder? Some of his comments border on third reich stuff, but he is young.... actually we haven't heard from him in a while...

    Another poster was Nick, but he has since been banned for something else from memory.

    So no personal initiative to delete a post containing racial slurs?

    If I was an expert on American culture and had training in racism through the years in the US and recognised the word as being a slur I probably would have had a word, but I don't remember reading the post.

    So keep the peace, make sure there are no racial slurs or any sexist trash on the forum, pure and simple.

    We have at least one lady here and to be honest sexism is not really an issue most of the time.... yeah... I will of course say that because I am a man... but today I might be a duvet cover or lounge suite... sexism is not OK but there is no way I am not going to take the piss out of someone who does not know what gender they are at the moment and think it is something they should be allowed to choose... otherwise we could all be little black half asian girls so no one can be racist or sexist right?

    Scorpius can post his photos but if he wants to prove that Russian civil shipbuilding exceeds South Korean one he will have to post some actual proof, and not spout bullshit and pictures.

    Scorpius never said Russia was outproducing anyone... he was just showing you some ships that they made that were more complex than you were suggesting river boats were, and you abused him for it.

    He did not ONCE prove his point. Not ONCE did he actually compare anything. Spouted out some sums that disproved his point, shows some pictures, and left.

    Perhaps if you were paying attention you might have heard what points he was making, which were not the same as the points made that started this tantrum rant.

    Vlad also said to keep this forum clean in one of his latter posts, in announcements, and respect opinions, even if they are pro-Western.

    Respect diversity of opinion and not bully people you think are wrong... bloody words to live by... are you getting a hint yet or shall we flog Scorpius and Hole for not immediately flip flopping on what they posted...

    Vann is a moronic troll or just schizophrenic that spouts nothing but bullshit, his antics actively denigrate the image of the forum and those posting on it, outright hindering it's function, as you put it, to educated Westerners on Russia.

    What... Russia has no Trolls?

    All Russians must have taken their Vaccines by now if none of them are anti vaccine.

    BTW a troll is a mythical creature from scandinavian/european mythology... if Vann has European heritage that could be considered a racial slur...

    Wonder if you are offending him for posting his views?

    I claimed that they needed to stop production now as well? Again, stop making shit up.

    Well how else can they upgrade their yards and tooling and way of making ships... work around the hulls already in place?

    You complain they are not going fast enough and taht the solution is a shipyard upgrade and revision of the entire ship building process which is going to require they buy a shit load of new very big cranes.... how many hours were you expecting that to take?

    How much longer would it take with normal production going on around it?

    Who is talking shit now?

    The current path they are on now is the best one, I didn't insult Russian shipbuilders when they didn't put in bids on certain tenders for Russian organizations, I understood why they did it.

    You said they don't make them right and it is a catch 22 situation where they can't upgrade and improve efficiency with the workload they have and the workload they have keeps them working so they can't just get rid of that while they upgrade... so the result is that they are where they currently are.... you fucking genius... thanks for your expert knowledge and understanding of the situation... what you are basically saying is taht they are useless because they make stuff the old way and are in no immediate position to fix that, but plans are in place to transition to more modern building practises when there is an opportunity to do so.

    They have crippling debt limiting their abilty to manouver, but this is being solved slowly too.

    There is no faster or easier or more sensible way to solve these very specific and peculuar problems that were naturally created by an up to date ship building industry stagnating for 20 years and then finding itself behind best practises and struggling to catch up.

    I also don't demand change instantly, I just simply won't accept people trying to lionize Russian shipbuilding when it clearly isn't what people are claiming it to be.

    No, those fucking losers have an easy job that they are in a bad situation they clearly brought on themselves through their own proven corruption and inept management... not expanding or upgrading infrastructure without money or orders is clearly bordering on theft... send them to the gulag...

    Thanks again for the help Captain Obvious.

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Captai11


    Pathetic, not even a proper response.

    That is exactly why your comment got that response...

    Ohhhhh now West has no soul after the delusions come down about mystical Russian shipbuilding, I understand.

    The history of the west cannot be understood if you read what they wrote about their own history.... try a better source like Oliver Stone...

    You think Russians are happy that shipyard workers are dying in preventable accidents due to greed in implementing safety practices?

    Greed in implementing safety practises? They are building ships the old way... how could new safety practises be applied properly doing it the wrong way?

    Shipyard work has always been dangerous. but of course only Russians die... because of corruption or they don't care...


    You are so pathetic it is beyond words, I talk about safety records in operation of naval vessels in past three decades, and you bring up WW2 and the genocide of Slavs by Fascist Germany?

    You are talking about respect for life... specifically Russian lives.... there is none of that in the west.

    If you say black people are dumber than white people.... they can't help it... it is genetics... you would probably lose your job in the west, but when the head of the CIA says Russian people are genetically predisposed to be bad... to be wrong... no one says a word.

    Your fear for the future of ethinic and gender minorities is amusing because Russians are now the minority of the western world that don't get protected or shielded from offense... you dirty rotten hackers and election stealers you...

    Got it, US subs are built faster, thanks for confirming.

    But they are the river boats of the worlds subs... they are literally sub standard... clown

    They have a use, they are a large oceangoing surface combatant with high amount of VLS capacity.

    You think RuNavy doesn't need or want those? They most certainly need replacement for Slavas and Kirovs.

    Russia needs Zumwalts like it needs Nimitz class carriers... the ones that work...

    Russia does not need an invasion carrier to attack countries and invade for resources.

    Russia will most likely have a version of the Coalition 152mm gun fitted to their destroyers and Cruisers that is going to be everything the gun on the Zumwalt was supposed to be... long range, accurate, and affordable... Russia does not need to pine over Americas cast offs.

    Your point being? Russians don't consider themselves Asian, but Eastern European. End of story.

    Then they are in for a disappointment because the EU and US will keep rejecting Russia because Russia might take control of the EU if allowed to get too friendly, which is what the US fears the most. Combining the EU and Russia.... why would they need the US?

    But then with all their problems why would Russia need the EU?

    Who needs to conform to those rainbow flagged tree hugging fairies.

    I demanded no such instant transformation, again making shit up.

    You outlined the problems and mentioned that the solutions are in the process of being applied and that it is going to take time which is the problem you identify because you want it all working and fixed now.

    How is this a response in your mind? Who's creation? Blame what and who?

    Ukraine is not a benchmark but a yes or no question as to if you aren't completely braindead.

    Ukraine and Russia can both see Ukraine is broken and the Ukraine blames Russia.

    The EU and the US just want the Ukraine as a counter to Russia the way they want India and Japan and South Korea as a counter to China and Russia in the Pacific... they could care less about the state of the Ukraine and will do nothing to help fix their problems so essentially Ukraine is screwed and will not get any help from the west except for token shit like inflatable navy patrol boats.

    Kiev is ignoring its Minsk agreements so it is a question of when patience will be lost and regions declare themselves autonomous like Kosovo did.

    When they do that it will be interesting because Russia can then open its borders as an open international border and sell them stuff and buy their products and they can grow and develop like the Ukraine used to with trade with Russia.

    Eventually decisions will have to be made... reunification, or further division with Ukraine breaking up to join EU states on their border with what is left some sort of stalker no mans land but without the valuable artifacts.


    FFS, where did I demand that they do this all instantly? WHERE? I posted no such thing.

    You are complaining about the problems and admit they have solutions in place that will take time to take effect, which means you are essentially complaining that the solutions are not wave of a magic wand or drink that magic potion type solutions.

    People claimed Russia displaced SK or Japan, it's bullshit, I've shown proof, and now people are whining that reality is not what they want. End of story.

    Did you read what they said carefully... they might have said that the Russian shipbuilding industry is now that major supplier of Russian customers for civilian shipping needs.... your attention to detail seems a little iffy to me.


    I'm perfectly willing to discuss, but don't strawman me over me demanding that Russia output as much vessels in the same tonnage as SK or whatever, and certainly don't accuse me of celebrating Russian deaths either.

    Honestly you seem rather emotional about this topic... and I really don't see much point in further discussions in the talking bollocks section.

    If you think you can keep on topic and not tell other members they are morons perhaps you might want to discuss the state of Russian shipyards in an appropriate thread... or not. Totally up to you. Not really a core interest of mine so don't expect this much attention...

    I do love the irony though... I locked horns with Vlad on a few things in my early days but was civil enough not to say to him the sort of things you have said to me... I am sure my tolerance is the core of the problem and that being a person from the west cancel culture and censorship should be things I cherish...

    Ahh well... I didn't seek power, power was thrust upon me, and to be honest there are lots of aspects I really don't like.

    Never really been a fan of conflict... and this is the talking bollocks section so you can stop reading any time.

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    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  kvs Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:40 pm

    It's like watching a parent clean the poop from a baby. The smell is unpleasant too.

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    Post  Scorpius Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:42 pm

    God, what a ton of nonsense I had to read. So, if you forgot - that my participation in the topic began after post #114, this one:
    x_54_u43 wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:
    So by what metric is this statement based on?

    By any.
    They float 2-3rd place for a while, depending on how the contract dates are combined to make a comparison.
    A NEVA2021just ended in Peter 2 weeks ago, and some data was revealed there as well.
    They produce 230+ civil hulks at the moment, with the potential for a further 120 ...
    You really can't realize the scale of the upgrade of the Russian civil fleet, because it is hard to realize, to be honest.

    I'm sorry but this is just funny, mind actually giving a concrete figure and source?

    I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.

    What did I do? I brought information from various sources, which shows that in reality even MORE ships and ships are being built in Russian shipyards than the number he mocked x_54_u43.
    What did the mentioned user do? Instead of admitting that he screwed up and misjudged the situation at Russian shipyards and the number of their orders, he staged a dirty tantrum several pages long.

    At this time, he repeatedly insulted me and many of those present, simultaneously attributing quotes to us that we did not say. He called the data from open official sources nonsense several times. He spoke several times about the Russian shipbuilding sector in an unacceptably disparaging manner.
    Okay, now I intend to finally break him, for this I will ask him to answer very simple questions.
    1. If riverboats are so easy to design and build, then wouldn't it be difficult for him to tell us how many countries in the world produce riverboats similar to those listed below?
    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 296028
    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Scale_1200
    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Inx960x640
    2. If the list of countries from point 1 is not so large, does this mean that all other countries cannot build such river boats because they do not have similar technologies?
    3. If there are no countries such as South Korea, Japan, the USA among the countries from List 1, does this mean that these river boats require much more complex technologies than the construction of container ships?
    4. Is it really true that simpler technologies are used in the construction of the nuclear submarine of project 09852 than in the construction of the Aframax container ship?
    5. Is the construction of one submarine from point 4 equivalent to the construction of one Aframax container ship?
    6. What is the length of the list of countries in the world that are able to develop and build at their shipyards at the same time river vessels from point 1, submarines from point 4 and the notorious Aframax container ships?

    If, after honest answers to these simple questions, the user x_54_u43 will not be able to understand why he screwed up, then I consider it pointless to continue conducting any dialogues with this user at all.

    Speaking of my long silence: unlike the aforementioned user, my time is scheduled almost by the minute - real life, do you know this expression? And so I had to spend as much as 15 minutes of my precious time on explanations refuting stupid accusations against me. So I spent a quarter of an hour of my life teaching some (even unknown to me) fool for FREE, instead of spending that time earning money to pay off my mortgage.

    Even GarryB, a person living on the other side of the planet from me, and not even speaking the same language with me, understood what I wanted to say. But not x_54_u43

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    Post  Mir Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:16 pm

    That's why I like pictures - it speaks so much louder than words! Laughing

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Pic-ca10

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:21 pm

    Scorpius wrote:

    What did I do? I brought information from various sources, which shows that in reality even MORE ships and ships are being built in Russian shipyards than the number he mocked x_54_u43.
    What did the mentioned user do? Instead of admitting that he screwed up and misjudged the situation at Russian shipyards and the number of their orders, he staged a dirty tantrum several pages long.

    But this is what is being done bud, so no reason to play the same game.
    To be honest, this is a really tasteless discussion of two fronts who are determined to win a "war", when there is none.
    The Front is already gone.
    As I have said several times, there are medial outcasts that claim Russia to be 3rd or 2nd place in the worldwide shipyard business.
    That is happening because, in some perfectly tailored frames, those can be a true statement if you adjust several factors.
    A real river flow for propaganda.
    But it is overall bullshit.
    Russia is neither 2nd nor 3rd when you apply objective measures.
    There is REALLY no point discussing that, sorry guys.
    But this is what some of us are trying to do.
    X has a point, and instead of bullying him with walls of text, you should dig into the matter, and make common observations.
    None of you is right, and none of you is wrong if we skip the general thesis that they are 2/3rd.
    Then you are wrong, and X is right.
    SORRY! They aren't.Laughing
    But you know what?
    They might be a world's strong 4th position, objectively!
    With great foundations for further expansion.
    And you know what even further?
    This position is almost the same ad China used to have 20 years ago.
    Unimaginable, right?
    Now, instead of measuring your dicks, maybe we can move forward, and wonder how the actual investment plans, the produced portfolio, the changing global market can be a gain or a pain for them?
    Grown enough?
    Hope dies last.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:28 pm

    Mir wrote:That's why I like pictures - it speaks so much louder than words! Laughing

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Pic-ca10


    What speaks even louder, it is possibly 50 Let Pabiedy icebreaker.
    A 160m long giant.
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    Post  Arrow Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:43 pm

    The discussion also concerns the navy.  In this case, Russia can boast very good results.  They are currently building about 70 ships.  In fact, only China seems to be building more for the navy these days.  USA is building several destroyers Arleigh Burke, two Ford-class aircraft carriers, LCS corvettes, and what else? There isn't much of it.Russia is building several types of missile frigates.  Proj 21631, 22800, onwards 20380, 20385, 20836. Frigates 1135.6, project 22350 and soon the frigates 22350M, and this is a destroyer better armed than the American AB.  In addition, they are modern frigates and corvettes made in stealth technology with modern weapons and equipment not Harpoon, Tomahowk missile.  They build patrol ships, which can also be heavily armed with a container launcher.  Russia is not only building aircraft carriers and cruisers, but this will also change in the future, as long as they recognize that they need aircraft carriers.It is already building a powerful LHD with a displacement of 40k.  The construction of submarines is impressive.  In addition, there are several different projects at once.  I really don't see any advantage of the USA here, and they are even behind.  Of course, they still have the most powerful surface and submarine fleet, but that will change. Currently they are not building too many warships.


    Last edited by Arrow on Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:49 pm

    ... and they are doing that with the fraction of applied costs of the competitors, worth to admit.
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    Post  Mir Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:01 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    What speaks even louder, it is possibly 50 Let Pabiedy icebreaker.
    A 160m long giant.

    Exactly my point with that picture! Smile

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:07 pm

    Yeah, but the pic is a bit mosleading due to perspective.
    CHdM is only double the length Laughing
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    Post  Mir Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:31 pm

    The 50 Let Pabiedy icebreaker is no small matter at all, but the South Korean built Christophe de Margerie is a fucking impressive ship!

    Christophe de Margerie-class design and features

    The icebreaking LNG carrier features an ice-strengthened hull structure, which was fabricated using E-grade high-tensile special steel. Covered with 7cm of steel plates, the bow offers high manoeuvrability in open water and up to 1.5m-thick ice. The stern section is designed to enable navigation in severe ice conditions.

    The double-acting tanker capability allows the vessel to break heavy ice in both bow and astern manuoevres.

    Each vessel has an overall length of 299m, a width of 50m, a depth of 26.5m, and a design draught of 11.7m. The length between perpendiculars is 282m, the deadweight is 80,200t, and the gross register tonnage is 128,806t. The vessel is manned by a crew of 29 members and is capable of carrying 172.600m³ of cargo.

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    Post  x_54_u43 Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:30 am

    Before I am accused of editing quotes or something, I will declare now, Garry, that I have cut down portions of the quotes that I have replied to in this post, because I received an error saying the message was too long.

    Actually, I even tried cutting down the quotes to reduce word count but it still wasn't enough, so I am just going to split the post in two.



    Shock... horror... what do you think they were planning to do?

    I know what their plans are, I did research, read original interviews with shipyard directors, USC directors, manufacturers, I know what the current state and plans of Russian civil and military shipbuilding are, and now I have informed you. You are welcome.

    Russia and the Soviet Union have always paid for some products to be made by overseas shipyards... the floating dry dock that was lost with problems than they are currently having.

    Kirov? Sweden? That dock was manufactured in Finland, and was used for Adm. Kuz. And now instead of having to make it yourself or order from abroad, the RuNavy instead decided to make a new drydock for repair and even manufacture of vessels up to and even above the size of Adm Kuz.

    Because the Russian Navy, and civil shipbuilders as a whole don't think it is exactly acceptable to rely on foreign yards for VITAL repair facilities for the Russian Navy, and perhaps Russia shouldn't be an importer of ships and maritime equipment, but manufacture their own, and export it.

    And they said that because they read it in an article... they didn't read it in the tea leaves, but instead of calmly suggesting their inform if we look at what you wrote:

    Oh it wasn't that, it was Hole, Alamo, Papadragon claiming that Russia had taken either 2nd or 3rd place for civil shipbuilding, and specifically used the word "overtaken" Japan, they provided no such source or article.

    And yeah, I wrote what I wrote, when someone makes an absurd claim, and claiming Russia had overtaken SK or Japan in civil shipbuilding is an absurd claim, I'm not going to exactly put velvet gloves on. Anyone one with a basic 10 minutes worth of searching on the internet would completely understand that the claim by this "article" you mention is outright absurd.

    So you were saying they were wrong without even seeing the numbers for yourself.

    I knew exactly what the situation with Russian civil shipbuilding was even before the claim was made, I can read Russian, I can got to Flotprom.ru or balancers.ru and read exactly what is going on in not just civil but military shipbuilding as well.

    So yeah, someone claiming that Russia overtook SK/Japan is not just an eyebrow raiser, but equivalent to saying they had a quite the bridge to sell me.

    Yeah... but it has to be done now or yesterday or I can't brag about it on the internet...

    Changes to a shipbuilding industry don't happen overnight or even in a couple of months, they are working on the problems as they can, but how could they possibly be any better... not being shipbuilders of any standing at all... Rolling Eyes

    I most certainly am not bragging about anything on the internet, and I know perfectly well what changes take in terms of time, I see it happening before my eyes.

    he Russian government isn't funding and supporting shipyards so they can be the worlds best.... they are funding them and er ships is a pathetic waste of capacity for them if what they need are river boats and fishing boats and oil tankers and gas carriers and ice breakers.

    You need to start reading what I actually wrote instead of responding to the strawman you have constructed in your head.

    Pathetic waste of capacity or not, capability is compared with capability, not need or want. Can Russia build the same level of vessels that SK can? No. End of story, South Korea has a better shipbuilding industry, end of discussion.

    Nobody gives a **** about the South Korean production level... Russia isn't keeping tabs on Thales of France to check to see how many the night vision optics... it does not matter... you have clearly spent too much time around Americans.

    LOL

    Again, it wasn't me that compared Russia to SK/Japan, Hole/Alamo/PapaDragon did so by claiming Russia overtook them.

    You kind of have to give a **** about the production level, it is what a comparison involves, taking both sides and seeing the various metrics.

    So what is it with all the butt hurt from you?

    My butthurt is imagined in your head, you think I lose sleep over this?

    So let them complete the orders they have... let some foreign shipyards take up the slack and get some upgrades and development done so they are better able to make ships... are you really this dumb?

    Really? How am I dumb? I demanded nothing from Russian shipbuilders whatsoever, I described correctly their current and future situation and the problems they have, problems don't go away if you don't talk about them.

    It is precisely what they are doing.

    Post number 114 in this thread:

    And? I said total tonnage output is the figure that matters, am I wrong? You want to take output of shipyards it is pretty much the best way of doing it.

    Do you know what total deadweight means? It is actual mass of the vessel without fuel or cargo, so when you make either river vessels or supertankers, you can see raw amount of metal actually being processed into hull sections and created into a vessel.

    Primary work of shipyards is to cut and shape metal, and install components such as engines, shafts, propellors, electronics, pretty much everything that makes a ship not just a hunk of metal that looks like a ship.

    So yes Garry, tonnage is in indeed the benchmark to measure by, but not the only one. There are more, another two main metrics can be gross tons, which adjusts tonnage of a vessel by it's cost, you can think of it as comparing housing by cost per square meter.

    Gross tons are useful because something like a cruise ship costs 40x more than a bulk cargo carrier twice it's displacement, they require vastly higher labour hours to install and furnish all the systems and amenities that make a cruise ship a cruise ship, they are unbelievably expensive, I believe the most expensive in the civilian shipbuilding world actually.

    There is also total orderbook, this is simply the sum of the payments received for all the contracts you have received for constructing all vessels.

    So Garry, I would like you to explain to how how you felt that I was contradicting myself or flip flopping? I am quite clear with my comparisons, I didn't flip flop anywhere, I actually compared Russia with all three metrics, with Asia and Europe, do you need me to pull up the posts?

    Yeah, the entire navy section is full of projects that were delivered early and under budget and everyone claimed the Russian shipbuilding industry is ahead of the curve... you are the first to mention their might be any problems with managing very large complex pr

    Why do you think the third world remains the third world... and why do you think there is such panic in the west over the growth of China... tom that trickle down, but now it all goes to the 1% and most Americans are getting screwed like everyone else... should be interesting to see how long that will last...

    Somehow, China, SK, and Japan succeeded in becoming the world premier shipbuilders, despite not being nonwhite or Western, and against incredible odds to.

    I really doubt Russian shipbuilding is so hopeless as you describe that they couldn't export advanced value added products, there is all of Africa, South America, Middle East, Asia, I feel as if you are simply preparing for failure.

    Of course the world is free and fair and lets let quality of product and market forces control everything... which is why Sputnik V which seems tasy to get and of course all that ammo they produce...

    How naive are you?

    All you talk about is Western markets, meanwhile the other 7 billion people of the world are all accepting, and have accepted Russian products when there is reason to do so.

    Mexico bought Sukhoi SSJ's for god's sake. The reasoning here is simply Garry, if you have a good product and a will to sell it, you can find success. The West is not omnipotent, strong, but not omnipotent.


    Well I suppose having to operate at depths in the arctic ocean they would need much higher quality steels or titaniums than deep diving submarines...

    A statement that could have been only made by someone who understood nothing about the subject.

    You think constructing advanced nuclear submarines suddenly makes construction of large sea going vessels a matter of flicking a switch?

    You want an example of how naïve you are? Zvezda requires a new foundry in order to produce ultra large steel sheets in order to build ships quickly with large amount of labour efficiency, should I go and tell them that they have Sevmash in their home country, and now all their problems are solved?

    And then the contradiction... are you saying large container ships were not possible to build before these countries adopted their new method of ship building using large cranes?

    Hard to believe.

    What contradiction? No, you don't need Goliath class cranes and modular construction yards, it just makes immensely easier, quicker, faster, and cheaper to do so.

    Without these methods, these ships wouldn't have been impossible, but vastly more expensive and laborious to produce.

    Hilarious... now you care about Russian customers getting the ships they want on time... which is obvious because without that factor there is no problem... they can just wait longer and shipyards can continue to build them the old ways.

    Of course I care, why wouldn't I? I don't have ultra low standards for them.

    You have no problem with customers waiting? I can assure you customers do, or will the Soviet-built fleet go on forever?

    Those new trawlers that Scorpius posted a picture of, should Russians wait for them to be built to acquire their own seafood, or be beholden to foreign suppliers?

    You are pretty much not caring about Russian food security here lmao, all to defend slow construction methods.

    Problem solved then.

    It's a temporary solution until Russian yards increase capacity.

    Ordering Russian parts instead of foreign parts would save needing foreign currencies and exchange rates and the Russian components will likely be rather cheaper too.

    And if they don't exist or aren't cheaper or as good of quality?

    Wow... sounds like they could have some impressive tonnage figures on their books shortly... they might even overtake fiji in the ship building stakes..

    Oh so now you like big ships now? No longer interested in river transporters.

    Not really my problem... I am sure they are doing what needs to be done... and if there are problems or delays there are likely very good reasons for that too.

    Garry's infinite patience and understanding shining through.

    But anyone can make river boats... teach a 10 year old to whittle and pretty soon he will be making river boats... making river boats does not make you a shipbuilder remember...

    Again, more strawmanning, where did I say river boats aren't ships, or making them doesn't count as shipbuilding?

    hat is right... I forgot he is your bitch and has to do everything you say when you say it... or not.

    Or he might have read you complaining that Russian shipyards can't make ships and he posted some photos of ships they have made recently... what a total unfeeling bastard, what was he thinking... What a Face

    LMFAO

    He literally responded to my post asking for METRICS on Russian shipbuilding and how it COMPARED to South Korea or Japan, when I was calling bullshit on posters claims that Russia overtook them.

    He pasted paragraphs of various statistics, and not ONE of them mentioned Japan or South Korea, just a few sums and plans for construction period through 2024.

    His attempt to prove that Russian shipyard exceeded SK or Japan literally did not include one comparison or figure/metric from SK or Japan.

    It's like saying one lifter lifted a higher amount of weight than another, and then only posting one lifters records. It's just absurd.

    It's even funnier when I went through the statistics he posted them and compared them to Japanese ones, they outright disproved his own point.


    In magic land someone pops up and says... OK guys you have spent the last decade or two not doing too much and trying to keep afloat but now we have to ship oil and gas and we have stuff that has to go by ship as well so despite the fact that there has been no time to prepare h



    I
    Ty shipyards die, those that continue are terribly inefficient no matter what methods they use because they don't have enough customers.

    Ok and? What does car manufacturing, pollution levels, or how countries go through transition phases?

    Russian shipyards are in a unhealthy state, normal or not normal, this is the truth. No need to write massive paragraphs over it.

    Well obviously they need to sort out their funding structure because otherwise they are just pissing money away to the banks... and why should they benefit more from Russia building ships than the shipyards that make the boats.

    They do a good job of pissing away money as well, don't rob them of their own personal agency, RuNavy and government aren't exactly angels towards them, but there is plenty of blame on them for their situation, corruption being a big one.

    Bullshit. They need zero interest loans like western banks get from each other and then they can work their way out of debt... they ng in the Russian north sea route will need to be built in Russia... having and have Russian equipment and fittings to ensure they will be safe in the arctic conditions... safety first.

    They are getting direct government assistance, as to government rules, they literally have a keel quota program, it is how those trawlers that Scorpius posted pictures of actually got built. Russian customers don't live in the USSR, they have freedom of choice, without that program those trawlers would have been very unlikely to be built in Russia.

    As for the rule about only Russian ships in NSR, it would simply result in no one or very little people actually bothering to use the NSR for quite some time, it would take a very long time for Russian shipbuilding to fulfill the demand required in order to reach the RuGov's goal for total cargo throughput through the NSR.

    Lose the NSR to who? The rate the ice is melting they wont be needing ice breakers half the year anyway. Transfer some of the work to another shipyard while upgrades are made and then shift it back and then with the sudden light speed production capacity do everyone elses work while they all get upgrades too... Rolling Eyes

    To polar bears, if Baltzavod ceases work, the Soviet-era icebreaker fleet could decline without replacement, again losing throughput capacity.

    I also am quite amused how you've simply just handwaved this solution, and you accuse me of having a magic wand lmao.

    How about you do some research how long these remodels would last, what would be the new output, what other yards need to through it, licensing and certification for the yards to perform nuclear reactor installation, etc.

    Don't make stuff up, use some numbers for a change.

    It is not ever going to change... Russia will always buy some ships and products from other countries.... but right now you are pressing the accelerator and demanding progress and the engine is just grinding gears... either push in the clutch and put it in gear properly or get the **** out of the drivers seat and let someone who knows what they are doing drive this.

    I press on nothing, Russians themselves don't want to import ships and components, but make their own and export them, as you know is befitting of a country that has the largest and most advanced nuclear arsenal on the planet.

    It is you who is comfortable with low standards, not them.

    The reason we go on and on is your inability to read what I have been saying.

    Upgrading an entire ship building industry in any country takes time and you are in the middle of the process asking why everything isn't perfect and working like countries that have SPENT TRILLIONS getting this right...

    Gee... I don't know... this is of course my first rodeo because in 2008 when the Russian military realised there were problems and started funding things and buying UAVS from overseas the overwhelming majority of butt hurt was... UAVS are dumb simple model planes children make... why do they need to buy them from Israel... ignoring the billions of dollars and years of development and refinement the Israelis and west spent to get to where they were with those childrens toys.

    It has now been 12 years practically and now their Army and Air Force are pretty transformed and their Navy is getting there but then you would know it is harder to build a new navy than to make some new tanks.... cardboard is cheap is it not?

    But no, the managers of Russian shipyards should all be fired for incompetence... they should be producing ships like the Chinese do despite not having orders for them... or anyone to pay for them... or the capacity all those new build shipyards have...

    So you agree? Good.

    Again, never said they need to producing ships at the rate the Chinese do, or firing anyone, you should perhaps read my posts and not reply to the strawman you've constructed in your head.

    Yeah, I know... in a period of 30 years they went from disintegration of their supply and production network with the Soviet Union collapsing, and several economic collapses during the 1990s and then quite a period when the Navy was too big and had more ships and subs than they new what to do with... which is always excellent for people who build new ships, and now that demand is picking up tempo and their lack of new infrastructure is showing problems you are complaining that they are shit... what a bunch of incompetent losers... what were you saying before about setting the bar low... at least I have not taken down the bar and started beating them with it.

    I am aware of the economic crises and the loss of shipyards, and I didn't beat them with a bar.

    I told the truth of the state of Russian shipbuilding, you are the one seething over it.

    So now you admit the problems don't exist across the board so saying they are all lacking like you did 30 seconds ago is an outright lie.

    You plan around your situation which includes funding, the magic wand is needed if you want to be able to get unlimited funding and access to extra docks and areas to enable easier shifting of work while upgrades that are paid with this unlimited money are being implemented...

    Where did I lie? There are certainly nuances to the problems faced by Russian shipbuilding, some have different problems than others, but in the end the state of Russian shipbuilding can be quite succinctly described by outdated methods, equipment, and infrastructure, plus lack of personnel and financial problems.

    USC owns I believe something like 95 percent of Russian ship output, one corporation, I see no issue in summarizing the current problems they face "across the board".

    Delays are inevidable... why do you think there will never be delays?

    Sorry... forgot your magic wand...

    But obviously it is the manager at that shipyard for not having or not using his magic wand.

    This is comical, again never said there wouldn't have been delays, it is kind of way of life for Russian MIC.

    Kilos and Ladas are vastly more important than any civilian ships.

    Discussing civil shipbuilding remember?

    If you neighbour was up to his eyeballs in debt and his solution to his economic problems is not to spend less or balance his income with his expenses... his solution is printing money... yeah... fine upstanding role model of a man... especially the way he promotes his building and car repair companies by going around burning down buildings and ramming cars on the street to stoke up business...

    It is kind of the privilege that comes with owning the world financial system, as for failed state, can you compare standard of living between USA and Russia for me? Do you want me to pull up figures from Rosstat on how many Russians emigrated to the USA and how it has increased?

    Why set your self such hard limits... why not world supplier of magic wands too?

    All I said was for Russia to meet it's own demand, why so aggressive?

    No need for magic want factory.

    Most cannot.... Russia couldn't even when they obviously could because cheap food from the EU made production of food in Russia uncompetitive.

    More like sanctions actually gave RusGov a good kick in the ass, you know they were perfectly comfortable with situation as it was before Crimea?

    Not to mention talk and offers of joining NATO.

    That is fine, those foreign countries wont cut Russia off because they need Russias oil.

    Ahh, Russia doesn't need it's own advanced engineering sector, good to know.

    Meanwhile Novatek is leading it's own efforts in localizing advanced equipment in Russia for it's LNG projects.

    They aren't as comfortable as you.

    When Zvezda got its first crane I seem to remember it was PD who complained that it was foreign made and not Russian made... why are they buying foreign cranes... well if they only have two WTF is the point in setting up production of a product you have to design yourself of which you plan to make 2 of... it is just silly.

    Sure, it makes no sense, it is a very niche product that is very expensive and difficult to produce.

    Again, I asked for Russia to meet it's own demand and have self-sufficiency in components, stuff like engines, electronics, other equipment.

    So what is with all this butt hurt coming from you.... waaa... there are problems.... well they can fix those.... but there are these problems... but they are being fixed... but they aren't already fixed and producing at max potential capacity... well that would be a goal but it takes time for solutions to have the desired effect... waaa the problems...

    This butthurt is imaginary in your head. As I said before, I don't exactly lose sleep over this. It is just absurd to me to see people delude themselves instead of accepting actual reality and truth of a situation.

    I am not pro-Russian or pro-West, only pro-truth.

    You are the one demanding instant solutions.

    I am sure you will have no issue pointing out where I demanded such things.

    I don't believe that, because everything is so fucking perfect and everyone else is meeting their deadlines and the Orcs are not sabotaging production... I mean when you are building a ship that is supposed to be ready first and suddenly the Orcs refuse to deliver engines that were paid for then obviously you just pop that ship out of the queue and everything just leap frogs ahead and keeps to its original time table because obviously the US coup de ta in Kiev was to be expected and everything that followed after that was already listed in all their plans... only a real dickhead would demand they stuck to the plan and launched those ships without core parts to keep everything else on schedule because obviously river boats are vastly the most critical types of ships being built anywhere... you said so yourself.

    I honestly don't understand the point you are trying to make here, what do Orcs, Kiev, river boats have to do with the fact that Russian shipyards blow past deadlines?

    Sounds like you disagree with yourself.

    FFS Garry, what metric you want to compare then?

    As I said above, I compared Russia with the world leaders, total deadweight, gross tons, and total orderbook. I didn't just select total deadweight, it's a good metric, but there are nuances that need to be understood and that comes with actually reading and researching.

    I am honestly amused that you are so hung up on this selection of total deadweight, do you think selecting by another metric will suddenly reveal the truth about the hidden glory of Russian shipyards?

    You can pick what you like, as I have said before, present me your own figures and actually COMPARE THEM.

    No it does not make sense at all... how the **** can they be overloaded with local orders if their terrible record and slow building process and time and money wastages mean they will shift their orders to foreign yards... if that were actually true the problems would solve themselves... Obviously...

    It makes total sense, because Russian navy doesn't want to place orders abroad for very obvious reasons, Rosatom is not going to hand over sensitive technical information and certification to install naval reactors on icebreakers abroad.

    And if the keel quota program for civil ships didn't exist, as well as RusGov organizations and other state corporations didn't exist and were mandated by law to place certain orders at Russian yards, then yes Garry, it is very likely that vast majority of Russian shipyards would go out of work and many Russians to lose income.

    I am suggesting they don't have time to wash their hands because that is an inefficient waste of time, but the snow flake obviously has to make it racist.

    Who was talking about strawman arguments...

    Hilarious, your first response to learning about the efficiency and capability of Asian shipyards was to imply that they don't wash their hands?

    Doesn't exactly sound kind.

    You believe T-14s have cardboard armour, or was it just flame bait?

    No genius, I was pointing out that you and others sound exactly like Ukrainians talking about Russian equipment and tech. You know when it was first unveiled they started going on and on about how it has "thin hatches" and "cardboard turret armor".

    And now it looks exactly the same to me when I read miketheterrible's and other's posts on the 055 Chinese cruiser thread, I mean it just reeks of butthurt.

    Really don't understand what you are talking about here.... why would Chinese ships have Russian names? and who would complain about it even if you did... everyone would just think you were mental.

    Impressive reading comprehension.

    You know how people talk about how if you replaced "Russians" with "Jews" in the headlines and writings that Western writers and other morons make discussing Russians/Russia, then people would freak out, but since it is about Russians, the West considers it acceptable?

    It is the same thing here, the way miketheterrible (and others) talk about the 055 cruiser looks the exact same as Ukrainians shitposting on Armata, Su-57, etc.

    No actual reasoned discourse, China has big ship and Russia doesn't? Just start shitflinging apparently. The 40k helicarriers that were laid down at Zaliv are big large vessels, those are good but Chinese ones bad?

    What will this forum think when the Super-Gorshkov's are laid down in SevVerf's new boathouse? It will likely very much be close in displacement to the 055, judging by massive growth trends in Russian naval orders, will it be bad or good now just because it is Russian?

    So let them fucking implement the new concepts and designs as well as build the infrastructure necessary in their shipyards to change the way they do things and stop bleating like a little bitch about how it is not done already.

    They are changing more than one shipyard and those shipyards are already working on projects... you don't believe in magic wands so you must realise even if they stopped all other work it will take 2-3 years or more and because they are not going to stop work it might take 5 or 6 or more years.

    Grow up.

    Hilarious, where again am I whining and bitching? Demanding they complete things faster?

    You've conditioned yourself into lashing out as soon as anything negative is said about Russia in general lmao.

    You're the one that needs to grow up, not constantly wringing your hands over every criticism and negative statement.

    Polish and Baltic politicians regularly threaten to shoot down Russian aircraft... the US of A is supporting terrorist organisations around the world many of whom try to kill Russians too...

    So....no one else but Turkey and Georgia in past two decades, got it, thanks for letting me know.

    Wrong... invalid logic. Just because they choose to make something more important or urgent does not mean they cannot make the other things... it means they choose not to make them and make the more important products the more urgent products instead.

    You're outright bullshitting and honestly delusional.

    They are acquiring the capabilty to manufacture the ships they desire right before your very eyes, Zvezda was SPECIFICALLY to make large sea going vessels that you are so against and claiming Russia doesn't need them.

    Russia DOES need these vessels, get over it.

    I also find it hilarious that you think they choose not to? How is a shipyard like Onega or Krasnoye Somorvo supposed to make a supertanker? They can only make smaller vessels, where are they going to whipout a ship like Vladimir Monomakh?

    And you go on about magic wands.

    It is a floating dock get over it. Think of it as a river boat... that can sink and refloat itself.

    Oh this is rich, wealthy white dude in New Zealand knows best than the Russian fleet over how much that floating dock was vital to them.

    You think RuMoD was happy over this, that they didn't mind and it was no biggie? They utterly lost their shit. They not only lost ability to repair Adm Kuz, but that floating dock was vital to repairing other vessels for the Northern fleet, it's loss was deeply painful to fleet operation, unless you think Russian ships maintain themselves.

    Again.... logic requires proof, there are plenty of countries with good living standards that doe not dominate the world ship production ranks... you provide no link between the two things so there is no logical proof that Russia creating a world class ship building capacity will equate to better living standards for Russians.

    It may always be cheaper and faster to get China to make their civilian ships for them and that is fine... when I upgrade my computer I don't feel the need to develop and produce my own new hardware, for which I would then need to develop my own software for my new custom rig... it is just cheaper to buy the parts off the shelf and build my own...

    Plenty of countries with good living standards and no ship industry with the population of Russia?

    Germany, France, Italy, Japan, South Korea(this one is a little less applicable), China(catching up in living standards), really the only exception is the USA, they outsourced their shipbuilding as it was more profitable for them, and kept only military shipbuilding. They now keenly regret this decision.

    Yeah, they should have anticipated that after a long period of neglect and misuse that all of a sudden they were going to get lots of customers wanting new ships made with so much foreign parts that they would need sizable loans before they could even get the money for the raw materials let alone arrange the import licences for all the foreign components... assuming they are not french and wont come under sanction half way through production... yeah, those stupid shipyards... I mean banks can tell years in advance when their corrupt practices will lead to a housing bubble and then a collapse, why should shipyards not be expected to see the future with this level of accuracy that they can put aside money they don't have yet for jobs they have not done yet to pay for upgrades they don't need yet because they don't have any orders... until they do.... like now... when it is too late to plan for because the money you got from the customer is tied up in materials and equipment and labour to actually make the boats.

    Maybe a combination of forcing local companies to buy local but also agree to a 30% mark up for profit so they can make enough money to start dealing with debt and upgrade and improve infrastructure instead of just paying interest to banks with all their profits.

    In fact with all the facts and figures in front of them they should be able to work out jobs that work out costing them money and just cancelling those deals... that will free up time and space and money for upgrades while the important stuff gets done.

    I am no expert but I rather suspect that is what they are actually doing.

    Thirty percent markup? You joke? You think Russian customer's budgets are so large and wealthy now apparently too.

    Talk about magic wands.

    Time and money and efficiency.... if they can't do it cheaper and faster then let someone who can do that... it is not about giving up, it is about common sense.

    Do you buy food, or do you grow your own.... a bit risky relying on others to grow your food for you... you don't know what chemicals they use to make it look nice and last longer... nobody and no country has the resources or indeed the inclination to be totally self sufficient... it is not actually efficient to do everything for yourself... there will be a lot of ships they just want to use that are the same no matter where they are made, that do the same job and probably have all the same foreign components in them anyway... Russia does not need to fight every single battle... choosing battles is much more important.

    Putin showed that with his EU food ban... without their stupid sanctions allowing him to reciprocate there is no way their food ban would hold up under WTO rules... except as a response to EU sanctions on Russia... lucky Russia.

    Got it, just give up on an important industry for Russia and her interests.

    So they have years at the top of the shipbuilding trade and they still import parts... so why should backward lowly Russia even consider such a handicap to its customer base at this stage... maybe later on...

    Although the Russian Navy is already doing this anyway... they didn't get a choice.

    Sure they import parts, I almost guarantee you nearly every large vessel they made uses Wartsila diesels, but it doesn't exactly excuse Russia, it doesn't get to be a US ally and be all nice and integrated into the advanced manufacturing sector. It needs it's own, if you think otherwise it is too bad, Russians themselves are working on it.

    h please... Russians are not natural world class ship builders but you think South Korean and Japanese are?

    The Dutch and British and many other European countries have long histories in engineering and shipbuilding and have kept up with new technology... but guess what... the UK and the EU are not the hubs of shipbuilding they used to be so there wont be as many jobs there, certainly not as high paying as in Asian countries where they are working hard and pumping out ships and need expertise... I am sure it all originally came from South Korea and Japan and they didn't head hunt talent in other countries that were at the time leaders in the field of ship building to build up their industry.

    Yes, I must be fucking racist... obviously race is the main reason they are good at ship building because the last 600 years it has been South Korea and Japan dominating the water ways of the world with all their junk that was state of the art... not like the western shit the white europeans were exploring the world on...

    Europe didn't have have any Goliath cranes in the 1920s... fucking amateurs... it is because they are white of course.

    Oh I quite assure you, the practices and skill that made SK a shipbuilding titan, especially in 1980s and such didn't come from British or Dutch people.

    They ruthlessly squeezed out all efficiency they possibly could out of existing shipbuilding practices, and then made their own when those weren't good enough.

    Sorry, when you said Russia needs to emulate SK and the Japs I assumed when you complained at the foreign content of ships made in Russia that that was also something they needed to emulate.

    They certainly should emulate SK and Japanese building methods and equipment, Zvezda did and it's output will exceed literally every other yard in Russia combined several times over.

    As for foreign content, it is not SK and Japan that wants to stand against US and it's allies for it's own interests, then again, I don't know exact statistic of foreign content in SK built vessels, could be lower than 70 percent for all we know.

    The western sanctions on bits and pieces applies to the Russian Navy, so I would expect most of the navigation and other gear they use will already have Russian equivalents... besides they could buy all the Chinese bits until Russian bits are ready... I assume they make all their own bits too... I know the US doesn't...

    Even less money for domestic manufacturers, true solution. Also equipment for military vessels is a bit different from civilian ones you understand, a military standard nav system isn't exactly a good fit for civilian needs, I don't think they would appreciate the additional cost increase of standards like, withstanding nuclear blasts or shrapnel. This was actually a big problem with civilian USSR products.

    ey are supporting my comfortable life by buying my evil bits and pieces instead of Russian parts made by Russian workers in high paying jobs improving their standard of living...

    Gonna execute every Russian with smartphone now too?

    So Russian companies that order ships from Russian shipyards that demand foreign parts be used are not the problem?

    You are not being very clear.

    It would be nice if they made an effort to buy Russian, RuNavy and other state orgs try to, but free market is kind of important to healthy economy you know, Russians didn't exactly appreciate their previous system very much.

    Yeah, that is maths speak for I am a fucking censored .

    What you are saying is that you want to compare to countries that are not comparable using a factor that distorts the comparison so much there is no point in making such a stupid comparison in the first place, but you soldier on anyway and use statistics BS tricks of adjustment and alteration to create a result that looks more realistic.

    Why bother?

    Why not just say Italy and Russia are not comparable by any metric at all and leave it at that... but no... use math tools for purposes they were never intended for to make up shit numbers you can then talk shit about....ooooh... the result is 3.2 which means you just need a magic wand to fix their ship building industry and everything will be fine. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    What a crock of shit.

    You want to use nominal comparison method with Russia then? Be my guest, you won't like the numbers there then.

    Remember, you yourself talked about how great and efficient Russian MIC is with these prices that used nominal system.

    You offered Italy as a candidate for comparison... you might as well offered a chocolate pudding for the value involved.

    So you don't understand the subject, got it.

    They have two carriers they can't use together with destroyers that can't operate in the warm waters of the Med without breaking down because the water isn't cold enough to cool the engines... Russia has just perfected the designs of some corvettes and some frigates and is testing an upgrade of the latter following which they plan to put them in serial production.... they are already better armed than any British surface ship which gets called a destroyer, and the new upgraded Gorshkov with increased launch tubes is even better and they expect to make more than 6...

    Needless to say Boris vs Putin...

    So they do outweigh them, got it.


    The HMS Daring class air defence destroyer has 48 tubes for a SAM system inferior to Redut, a 4.5 inch gun that has nothing special about it, and 8 Harpoon anti ship missiles... again very ordinary...

    What Russian corvette has 48 SAM tubes? Gun systems are now relevant in 2021 now as well? And 8 Harpoons, funny I can think of a few Russian corvettes also armed with just eight of a similar class of missile.

    They got stuck with two white elephants they don't have the support ships to operate properly, which means when one is away sailing in the South China sea there are no ships left at all to patrol local waters around the UK.

    So they did build them.

    Of course, context means nothing, and their overall situations are meaningless... you clearly want Russia to aspire to be a naval power like Britain is now... what did you say about aiming low?

    We are comparing shipbuilding, not healthcare. As for aspirations, I don't think Russia would mind having the capability to build two carriers the size of QE, they have been planning so for some time now.

    So they are costing money.... cut them lose and get their civilian stuff made in China...

    Obliterate incomes of hundreds of thousands of Russians, any more ideas?

    Of course not. Turd class is a class of its own.

    Anyone can squat and drop a Zumwalt... real ships that work and are useful require planning...

    So no 17k ton surface combantants produced by Russia, thank you for confirming.


    Reading english is possibly an important part of misunderstanding.

    I said:

    US naval fighters are ordinary(not very good) and inferior (not as good as...) to Rafales

    US Navy doesn't operate F-35s? Or Marines?

    F-35B/C I believe are certainly naval fighters, and they are operating now.

    Working to test and construct a Frigate with all new weapons and sensor systems never used before on Russian or Soviet Frigates might take a bit of time... especially on a budget.... the communications and sensors on these ships are astounding and fully in line with the latest stuff the Italians could make for the US...

    Their new Frigates will be able to hit conventional land targets 5,000km away, and reach 1,000km with a land attack and anti ship missile that moves at more than 3km per second... of course it is going to take time... they are upgrading everything... and it is more multirole than a Kirov class cruiser... but obviously with less on board weapons in terms of numbers.

    No Garry, waiting to induct a frigate for a decade is not normal or a good sign, it's incredibly long to work out issues for a naval air defense system.


    Well they could play ball and order some fucking boats in a series instead of one offs that always take longer and are harder to make.

    ??? Where are these one offs?

    The fact that you think there are powerful HATO countries means you are already lost.

    Any child can have a tantrum and break stuff like Libya and Syria... who wants close relations with a child?

    When countries in the middle east want to talk about the current situation they don't go to London or Washington... and African countries are starting to do the same.

    I'll let Russian military planners know there is nothing to fear then, I don't think they'd very much agree with you.

    But you are certain that no astronaut or cosmonaut up there would not want fried chicken, because paste is wonderful and satisfies more than a KFC bucket ever could. The fact that you think that is a racist slur is amusing because I quite like KFC too, but a brand of food is racism... how do KFC continue to trade?

    Oh please, you know perfectly well how KFC is used as derogatory slurs towards African Americans and their diets, the internet is full of jokes on blacks being nothing more than apes desiring watermelons and fried chicken. Do you live under a rock?

    Again, you think a post talking about how a racial minority US astronaut would snap and go crazy and cause an incident due to lack of fried chicken and using the term "sheboon" (equating them to monkeys), is totally acceptable to be on Russian space program thread?

    Like calling someone a moron or a bad admin... I understand what a slur is.

    I also am very familiar with the old rules and what the new rules now are, and it mentions disrespecting mods and doing as mods tell you... written by Vlad.

    I could have banned dozens of members on this forum for breaking those rules... I didn't make them up, they are there for all to see... but Vlad made this site out of frustration at being banned for his views and assuming other rules are not broken, I think he would not be too upset if I banned these people, but maybe I care less what you think of me as I really don't know you.

    I personally think banning is a very last resort... there are exceptions.

    One member told another member to kill themselves... that is an easy ban... no need to think much about that.

    But this is essentialy a group of strangers that chat about topics they are mutually interested in... some seem to come for arguments, but that often gets boring quickly. Sometimes some people will say things they regret or wouldn't normally say in public because they get comfortable and think they are amongst friends.

    I don't think members should be banned outright for making mistakes... especially when the person offended is offended for others.

    If an african american person does want to pop in and have a chat about what they have to put up with and why it is offensive then I think that makes this a better forum, not a worse one for hiding behind virtue signalling offense.


    So you know what a slur is, you think sheboon isn't a slur? If you think it is, do you think it belongs in Russian space program? Would it not be offtopic at the very least?

    Every country is made up of cities and regions and there is bigotry agaisnt different regions in every country.

    In this case Jafa is Just Another Fucking Aucklander... it just identifies an arrogant person from up north who thinks they are better than everyone else around them when they travel south.

    Every country has that sort of casual racism, but most of the time they don't even care if you say it to their faces because they have probably called us much worse.... usually sheep shagger or some such crap.

    Slurs are usually used to get a rise when other rude words don't seem to work... why ban them when they clearly work.

    Dude you need to wake up, you think a nickname for a dude from certain city is the same as a word used to equate blacks with apes?

    We are adults and adults do more than say bad words... some times they do what the words mean.

    I would certainly discourage bad language in any thread, but some people are frustrating to talk to sometimes and I know you know exactly what I mean.

    Banning someone for the use of a word is a very drastic thing... especially when no one was so offended that they bothered to mention it till several days after it was posted.

    Again, didn't even ask you to ban it, you think it is a normal and good thing to have on a thread about Russian space program?

    So it is a website for asshole murdering extremists... thanks for the comparison... really glad you are not over reacting to this.

    Yeah, language used there perfectly matches up with Lyle's post that he deleted.

    He deleted it himself... I call that a much better result than having me wipe your asses for you like you are kids.

    Good, he had some shame then over his behavior.

    It was an example of very bad humour... some people like that.

    Did you hear about what the poor blind, dumb, deaf girl with no arms and no legs and cerebral palsy got for Christmas?

    Cancer.

    That isn't racist or sexist... not to everyones tastes but where to draw the line?

    Russian space program thread is a place for rude jokes?

    Yes it is.

    I can look every day, but there is no way I read every single post from Vann or Tsavo Lion.... I certainly don't take teh time to watch every single video link posted as some of them I don't find interesting, though to be fair some of them I do... A good indication will be a like from me...

    It is much easier when members read these posts themselves and anything that offends you or you think might be close to the bone can send me a private message... no drama.... no police state action.... tell me where it is and what is so offensive or lowers the tone of the website and I will take a look at it and talk to the person who posted it. I don't mention who complained because that is not important... I just discuss with the person about what they posted and why they posted it and most of the time they agree it was out of line and remove it themselves with no further action needed.

    Obviously if they repeatedly get complaints over and over then I would look at further action, but some people get offended at the slightest thing... for every person that posts on this or any forum there are literally hundreds of people who never post and I suspect either they don't want to look a fool and be bullied or they know they might come across as offensive.

    Of course there will be plenty who don't think they can contribute and just want to listen in on the discussions.

    Probably not this one though.

    Fine then, you didn't see it, I won't launch an inquisition then, I noticed there is word filter on website, why not add these words there? Would make your job easier.

    The post was removed by the person who posted it.... lesson perhaps learned... isn't that the best possible outcome in this situation?

    BTW have you read some of the posts of our French bodybuilder? Some of his comments border on third reich stuff, but he is young.... actually we haven't heard from him in a while...

    Another poster was Nick, but he has since been banned for something else from memory.

    Yeah he removed it, it is good, it didn't belong there in the first place.

    And no I haven't, is he also making racist posts in threads that don't belong?

    If I was an expert on American culture and had training in racism through the years in the US and recognised the word as being a slur I probably would have had a word, but I don't remember reading the post.

    You could have probably inferred it wasn't a very kind statement, but fine, you didn't read it, all the best to just update the word filter, you want assistance in that and what words should be on it? I will gladly help you.

    We have at least one lady here and to be honest sexism is not really an issue most of the time.... yeah... I will of course say that because I am a man... but today I might be a duvet cover or lounge suite... sexism is not OK but there is no way I am not going to take the piss out of someone who does not know what gender they are at the moment and think it is something they should be allowed to choose... otherwise we could all be little black half asian girls so no one can be racist or sexist right?

    Christ, will you or will you not do your job?

    Scorpius never said Russia was outproducing anyone... he was just showing you some ships that they made that were more complex than you were suggesting river boats were, and you abused him for it.

    Point to where I abused him and I will apologize.

    Secondly, that is not what happened.

    He specifically replied to the post where I asked for metrics proving that Russia outproduced SK or Japan in some manner, he posted quotations from Russian websites either summing civil and military construction, planned construction throughout 2024, and others.

    Nothing he posted proved his point, I pointed out so, and his only response were some pictures of vessels under construction in Russian yards, ironically one of them was Vladimir Monomakh, a ship nearly entirely constructed in South Korea.

    Perhaps if you were paying attention you might have heard what points he was making, which were not the same as the points made that started this tantrum rant.

    He specifically replied to my post and QUOTED my request for metrics that proved Russia overtook SK/Japan. What other point was he trying to make?

    Respect diversity of opinion and not bully people you think are wrong... bloody words to live by... are you getting a hint yet or shall we flog Scorpius and Hole for not immediately flip flopping on what they posted...

    Oh really? Where did I behave the same way as you, describing ships using "faggot", describing my posts as bitching and moaning, whiny tantrums, KVS going on about how I am a butthurt Ukrainian troll, need I go on?

    Where did I do the same to Scorpius and Hole? Did I call them morons, slurs, described them as trolls, portraying them as infants to be talked down to, as if I am some mighty being who's words are gospel?

    I never attacked anyone for having their opinions, I didn't call them names, they made a claim, I called bullshit, and here we are, not a single comparison yet made by them actually proving their point.

    I asked very simply, provide me metrics comparing Russia and SK/Japan, I am the only one who produced such figures, everyone else has simply attacked me for it.

    So again, X and Y, what ships did Russia produce in a year of your choice, or range of years of your choice, what was the average tonnage? How many tons of metal were processed in Russian shipyards compared to others?

    Give me Russian figures, and give me SK and Japanese ones, and show me how Russia is displacing them. It's very simple.

    I posted my own figures and SOURCES showing it. Scorpius did not list ONE figure from Japan or SK. Nor Hole either. Not KVS, no one.

    What... Russia has no Trolls?

    All Russians must have taken their Vaccines by now if none of them are anti vaccine.

    BTW a troll is a mythical creature from scandinavian/european mythology... if Vann has European heritage that could be considered a racial slur...

    Wonder if you are offending him for posting his views?

    You cannot be serious, troll as a racial slur? What else will you come up with?

    Well how else can they upgrade their yards and tooling and way of making ships... work around the hulls already in place?

    You complain they are not going fast enough and taht the solution is a shipyard upgrade and revision of the entire ship building process which is going to require they buy a shit load of new very big cranes.... how many hours were you expecting that to take?

    How much longer would it take with normal production going on around it?

    Who is talking shit now?

    I didn't complain over anything, I told you what current state of Russian shipbuilding is and how it compared to others, nor I did I demand I drop all production and whip out a check to a crane manufacturer. They have their own plan for expanding construction, I certainly don't know enough to try and draw up a better one.

    You said they don't make them right and it is a catch 22 situation where they can't upgrade and improve efficiency with the workload they have and the workload they have keeps them working so they can't just get rid of that while they upgrade... so the result is that they are where they currently are.... you fucking genius... thanks for your expert knowledge and understanding of the situation... what you are basically saying is taht they are useless because they make stuff the old way and are in no immediate position to fix that, but plans are in place to transition to more modern building practises when there is an opportunity to do so.

    They have crippling debt limiting their abilty to manouver, but this is being solved slowly too.

    There is no faster or easier or more sensible way to solve these very specific and peculuar problems that were naturally created by an up to date ship building industry stagnating for 20 years and then finding itself behind best practises and struggling to catch up.

    No genius, simply someone who informed himself on the subject. Again, only reason I brought these issues up was to compare to SK or Japan when posters claimed Russia overtook them, how could they overtake if their shipyards aren't as efficient and capable as them? It's simply not possible.

    No, those fucking losers have an easy job that they are in a bad situation they clearly brought on themselves through their own proven corruption and inept management... not expanding or upgrading infrastructure without money or orders is clearly bordering on theft... send them to the gulag...

    Thanks again for the help Captain Obvious.

    You deride me, yet it seems you have trouble accepting the obvious.

    That is exactly why your comment got that response...

    Can't find a strong enough eye rolling emoji for you.

    The history of the west cannot be understood if you read what they wrote about their own history.... try a better source like Oliver Stone...

    What does history of the west and Oliver Stone have to do with shipbuilding now?

    Greed in implementing safety practises? They are building ships the old way... how could new safety practises be applied properly doing it the wrong way?

    Shipyard work has always been dangerous. but of course only Russians die... because of corruption or they don't care...

    No, not only Russians, shipyards are indeed dangerous, doesn't give excuse to Russians to not implement safety practices, or you think sinking drydocks and fires on board Adm Kuz are just part of the job?

    You are talking about respect for life... specifically Russian lives.... there is none of that in the west.

    If you say black people are dumber than white people.... they can't help it... it is genetics... you would probably lose your job in the west, but when the head of the CIA says Russian people are genetically predisposed to be bad... to be wrong... no one says a word.

    Your fear for the future of ethinic and gender minorities is amusing because Russians are now the minority of the western world that don't get protected or shielded from offense... you dirty rotten hackers and election stealers you...

    Holy shit dude, this is about safety in shipyards, head of CIA denigrated Russians now it's ok for Russians to die preventable deaths in accidents at shipyards? So if someone insults me, it's ok for me to not take my own safety seriously and get into a car crash?

    Want to know what happened with the floating dock that sank? It got sold to Rosneft, suddenly, some time later, while working on the flagship for the Russian Northern Fleet, it sank due to improper measures taken, which involved not maintaining the safety systems that would have prevented the ballast tanks flooding when they weren't supposed to, the emergency generator that would have pumped out water and kept it afloat was literally not maintained and inoperable when it was needed.

    Did the CIA do this? Western agents? No, it was greed and cost cutting that got those workers killed, that left families ruined. The **** does the West have do it with this? NOTHING.

    But they are the river boats of the worlds subs... they are literally sub standard... clown

    No actual response, got it.

    Russia needs Zumwalts like it needs Nimitz class carriers... the ones that work...

    Russia does not need an invasion carrier to attack countries and invade for resources.

    Russia will most likely have a version of the Coalition 152mm gun fitted to their destroyers and Cruisers that is going to be everything the gun on the Zumwalt was supposed to be... long range, accurate, and affordable... Russia does not need to pine over Americas cast offs.

    So what will be the 40k ton helicarriers used for? And likely the future CVN program? Peaceful purposes as opposed to evil American boats of malice?

    These types of ships are designed expressly for enforcing your own interests in foreign countries. Of course, intent matters, but intent is not part of ship design.[/quote]
    x_54_u43
    x_54_u43


    Posts : 334
    Points : 350
    Join date : 2015-09-19

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 8 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  x_54_u43 Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:33 am

    Part 2 of my post

    hen they are in for a disappointment because the EU and US will keep rejecting Russia because Russia might take control of the EU if allowed to get too friendly, which is what the US fears the most. Combining the EU and Russia.... why would they need the US?

    But then with all their problems why would Russia need the EU?

    Who needs to conform to those rainbow flagged tree hugging fairies.

    EU has god given right over who gets to be considered European now?

    Dude, Rus was literally founded by vikings, I think it can be safely considered a Eastern European country.

    You outlined the problems and mentioned that the solutions are in the process of being applied and that it is going to take time which is the problem you identify because you want it all working and fixed now.

    I identified problems because they are problems, just because a fix is in progress doesn't mean there isn't problems.

    Ukraine and Russia can both see Ukraine is broken and the Ukraine blames Russia.

    The EU and the US just want the Ukraine as a counter to Russia the way they want India and Japan and South Korea as a counter to China and Rartifacts.

    Yeah Ukraine is broken, corrupt, and in general, a shithole that has declined from a population of 50m to around 30m post USSR.

    You go and compare the two, but I and Russians themselves have quite higher standards.

    You are complaining about the problems and admit they have solutions in place that will take time to take effect, which means you are essentially complaining that the solutions are not wave of a magic wand or drink that magic potion type solutions.

    I complain about nothing, I informed the state of Russian shipbuilding to those who apparently believed otherwise, I demanded no timetable from Russia, nor production figures.

    Did you read what they said carefully... they might have said that the Russian shipbuilding industry is now that major supplier of Russian customers for civilian shipping needs.... your attention to detail seems a little iffy to me.

    Oh really now?

    Hole wrote:Russia is already the second largest producer of civilian (= cargo) ships in the world.

    PapaDragon wrote:Third

    They overtook Japan last year but that's as far as anyone can get

    Top two spots are South Korea and China and nobody will ever touch those two, it's impossible

    miketheterrible wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    Russia is already the second largest producer of civilian (= cargo) ships in the world.

    Third

    They overtook Japan last year but that's as far as anyone can get

    Top two spots are North Korea and China and nobody will ever touch those two, it's impossible


    South Korea you mean

    ALAMO wrote:By any.
    They float 2-3rd place for a while, depending on how the contract dates are combined to make a comparison.
    ou really can't realize the scale of the upgrade of the Russian civil fleet, because it is hard to realize, to be honest.

    Hole wrote:By the way, Russia is in the Top 5 shipbuilding nations (let´s settle for this undisputed fact) without the Zvezda yard being finished. Or some other shipyards that are being modernized and even extended.


    How am I supposed to interpret these claims, they are quite clear in what they state, and also clearly without actual evidence.

    Honestly you seem rather emotional about this topic... and I really don't see much point in further discussions in the talking bollocks section.

    If you think you can keep on topic and not tell other members they are morons perhaps you might want to discuss the state of Russian shipyards in an appropriate thread... or not. Totally up to you. Not really a core interest of mine so don't expect this much attention...

    I do love the irony though... I locked horns with Vlad on a few things in my early days but was civil enough not to say to him the sort of things you have said to me... I am sure my tolerance is the core of the problem and that being a person from the west cancel culture and censorship should be things I cherish...

    Ahh well... I didn't seek power, power was thrust upon me, and to be honest there are lots of aspects I really don't like.

    Never really been a fan of conflict... and this is the talking bollocks section so you can stop reading any time.

    LOL dude, you accuse me of gloating over the deaths of people? You talk down to me, equating my writings to tantrums of a child, you throw about slurs of race and sexuality, but I am the one saying untoward things to you?

    I certainly didn't call kvs, Hole, ALAMO, Scorpius, and others morons, I didn't call their writings that of childish tantrums or loads of nonsense, I didn't accuse anyone of being a butthurt troll.


    I am going to reply to Scorpius tomorrow, I am tired and have other things in need of doing, he after all, demands now I do research for him.

    If you are going to write a reply to this post Garry, I will write a reply after I finish writing to Scorpius, his post demands some attention to detail.

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