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    China’s hammer blow to private education shows it will do whatever it takes to meet its goals

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    Post  par far Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:18 am

    I want to know what you guys think about this.


    I don't know how to feel.


    Me, being able to afford private schooling for my kids, don't really like.


    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/530256-china-private-education-non-profit/
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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:42 pm

    par far wrote:Me, being able to afford private schooling for my kids, don't really like.

    Would you like to elaborate more of your opinion about this ? (serious question, no mocking)
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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:04 pm

    Education should be for everyone and not just for the elite that can afford it.

    Getting educated (esp Tertiary) has become a monstrously expensive undertaking with most students ending up with huge debt that takes years to recover from.

    I guess the same should apply with basic medical treatment.

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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:38 pm

    Russia is actually a very good example of how the elite kept the masses from getting educated.

    Back in Tsarist Russia a census of 1897 revealed that only 27% of Russian residents were literate. Education was basically preserved for the elite.
    There was some improvement in the early 20th Century but it was only after the October Revolution that educating the people became a priority.
    The USSR had one of the highest literacy rates in the world at around 99%.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:25 pm

    Mir wrote:Russia is actually a very good example of how the elite kept the masses from getting educated.

    Back in Tsarist Russia a census of 1897 revealed that only 27% of Russian residents were literate. Education was basically preserved for the elite.
    There was some improvement in the early 20th Century but it was only after the October Revolution that educating the people became a priority.
    The USSR had one of the highest literacy rates in the world at around 99%.

    You are to harsh on them. I mean Tsarist.
    27% of literacy ratio at the end of 18th century is actually not that bad. That includes native tribes, remember that.
    That is in pair with Spain, Mexico, Portugal or Finland.
    In the US, illiteracy among the black population reached 70% in the early 19th century. In your country, about 5% of the black population was literate in 1904.
    Plus, we can't trust those data in full, as the studies were made at totally different times. There was a huge number of people, who could read but could not write those times.
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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:11 pm

    Modern education and training is meant to reproduce the labour source for the business enterprises and is tailored to it. Fierce competition and stratification in labour market and career structure is reflected in similar issues in education and, more or less, lead to the existence of private tutoring who sell this service to well-to-do parents whose financial conditions allow such investment. The tutored children from wealthy family in turn have better change in career path and income than the children in poor families, and in turn get better conditions for their own children and grandchildren to have extra "tutor" services to get better... thus reproduce and reinforce the stratified situation.

    @par far: I have no ill will and mean no offense against the rich parents, they just do what they have to do to move forward in their situation. But we have to admit that the situation must change for the greater good.

    Tighten the regulations in the private tutoring is only one amongst many measures for solving the problems. I think we can expect more comprehensive economic and social improvements, come from a country who is really want to improve the situation.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:26 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    par far wrote:Me, being able to afford private schooling for my kids, don't really like.

    Would you like to elaborate more of your opinion about this ? (serious question, no mocking)

    I guess he is addressing the fact, that private schools have both pros and cons.
    One of my kids learns at a private school, the other at a public one.
    Teaching standard and level is better in the first one, but you get all pallet of social behaviours of golden kids. Some of them are hardly acceptable.
    The public one gives the kid possibility to meet with most of the future life problems. Income inequality, different skills, different societies the kids belong to ... this all combined creates a much more versatile human being.

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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:50 pm

    @alamo: yeah I just want to ask for more elaboration of his concerns about the issue.

    And thanks for your sharing of your experience.

    My sincere apologize to everyone if I really cause any misunderstanding or unintentional offense.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:03 pm

    Never took it offensive, buddy thumbsup
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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:15 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Mir wrote:Russia is actually a very good example of how the elite kept the masses from getting educated.

    Back in Tsarist Russia a census of 1897 revealed that only 27% of Russian residents were literate. Education was basically preserved for the elite.
    There was some improvement in the early 20th Century but it was only after the October Revolution that educating the people became a priority.
    The USSR had one of the highest literacy rates in the world at around 99%.

    You are to harsh on them. I mean Tsarist.
    27% of literacy ratio at the end of 18th century is actually not that bad. That includes native tribes, remember that.
    That is in pair with Spain, Mexico, Portugal or Finland.
    In the US, illiteracy among the black population reached 70% in the early 19th century. In your country, about 5% of the black population was literate in 1904.
    Plus, we can't trust those data in full, as the studies were made at totally different times. There was a huge number of people, who could read but could not write those times.

    I think you have a valid point there in the context, but I have to remind you that in Tsarist times the peasants were deliberately excluded from being educated, but as you point out, this trend was common practice at the time - esp Europe. That is basically my point - the very rich elite had educational privilege, whilst the rest basically remained in forced poverty or slavery if you wish.  

    The Revolution put an end to it. Europe's elite did not like this one little bit. This opened the way for the USSR to become a highly educated country - all for free. This policy was also followed by all the other Communist countries in the world. All of them have a 99% literacy rate that surpassed Western literacy rates. According to UN figures one such country has the distinction of having a 100% literacy rate - North Korea!
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:28 pm

    I would not be so sure about the literacy rate of NK Laughing
    The survey might have look something like this :
    Jan 1st, 12:00 - status of illiterate: 1 person.
    Jak 1st, 12:10 - status of illiterate : 0 person.
    Laughing

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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:35 pm

    Hehehe but these are recognized UN figures and from the little I've seen the North Koreans take there education very seriously - even if it is propaganda it's still literacy.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:21 pm

    Sure, sure, I am joking clown
    Still, it is impossible to have the absolute 100% literacy ratio.
    Some people are just idiots, unable to learn read&wright.
    The only option is if that ratio is so small that comes under statistic error measure.
    If that is the case here ... well scratch dunno
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:50 pm

    I think it's the right move albeit as mentioned, performed with the typical Chinese ruthlessness

    If there is a demand for private education, then that means that public education is in some manner deficient
    Unless it's purely a matter of nepotism and status, for rich parents to send their kids to such schools. But that's symptomatic of society and the economy itself.

    Still, I'm pretty sure there is plenty of scope for public schools to improve in China, as in Russia and other places

    It's better instead to impose limits on the private education sector while continuing to invest into the public one

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    Post  higurashihougi Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:46 am

    "Off topic"

    Probably we already know but, together with the regulation on the private tutoring, China has carried out another crackdown against the shipper companies like Meituan and Alibaba, in response of the reports about these companies' acts of monopoly and mistreatment of employees.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4635p25-why-china-will-become-the-first-superpower-soon#333365
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    Post  andalusia Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:56 am

    flamming_python wrote:I think it's the right move albeit as mentioned, performed with the typical Chinese ruthlessness

    If there is a demand for private education, then that means that public education is in some manner deficient
    Unless it's purely a matter of nepotism and status, for rich parents to send their kids to such schools. But that's symptomatic of society and the economy itself.

    Still, I'm pretty sure there is plenty of scope for public schools to improve in China, as in Russia and other places

    It's better instead to impose limits on the private education sector while continuing to invest into the public one

    I find it amazing that Americans consider public education to be Marxist and tend to support private schools; I guess it is an indication of American oligarchy tendencies.  

    You would be called a communist for your support for public education because Americans worship private markets and think anything government is evil and bad.

    Why do you think of the American hatred of all things government like education, health care and public transportation?


    Also Americans prize sports in schools over academic excellence; I noticed the other countries don't have high school or college sports.  Why do other nations don't have college or high school sports?   https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-high-school-sports/309447/




    Off topic:

    Are American universities overrated and overhyped? How good are Russian universities?

    https://matadornetwork.com/life/us-colleges-are-overrated-overpriced/

    https://www.quora.com/Are-American-universities-over-hyped
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:10 am

    Education is just another business.
    Like healthcare or welfare.
    If you can squeeze the lemon, why not?
    You just need to secure the assets to convince all the audience, that they get all the best they could.
    As Muricans know shit about the world further than the backyard, or end of the street in the best scenario, it works.
    If they will become too smart, hell ...
    Captain Murica and WonderFatty to the rescue Laughing
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    Post  higurashihougi Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:47 pm

    andalusia wrote:I find it amazing that Americans consider public education to be Marxist and tend to support private schools; I guess it is an indication of American oligarchy tendencies.  

    You would be called a communist for your support for public education because Americans worship private markets and think anything government is evil and bad.

    Why do you think of the American hatred of all things government like education, health care and public transportation?

    Because centralization and big government means the decrease of autonomy, benefit, and power of the private individual capitalists.

    American capitalists need a state for them to maintain the social order and suppress any kinds of opposition against their hegemony. But they also want to limit the power and scale of that state so that the state cannot meddle into the business activities of the capitalists and the state will not consume too much money of the capitalists.

    British and American liberalism is NOT for the freedom of the people. It is for the freedom of the wealthy, privileged people, the aristocrats and the oligarchs, they are free to use the money and privilege to do whatever they want against the working people in the fief and their sphere of influence.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:26 pm

    Me, being able to afford private schooling for my kids, don't really like.

    Didn't even realise you were Chinese..... Razz

    I find it amazing that Americans consider public education to be Marxist and tend to support private schools; I guess it is an indication of American oligarchy tendencies.

    You would be called a communist for your support for public education because Americans worship private markets and think anything government is evil and bad.

    Why do you think of the American hatred of all things government like education, health care and public transportation?

    Americans seem to trust big business over big government... which I find amusing considering Trump and Biden and the Clintons represent big business more than they represent big government....

    Private ownership suggests efficiency and less waste, while government run often suggests bloated over staffed and lazy and inefficient, but when it comes to prisons private ownership essentially turns your prison population into slave labour, and education into a serial production like for making accountants and economists and not much else because privately run schools have to make a profit or they are not interested.

    I noticed the other countries don't have high school or college sports.

    Not sure where you got that information from, sports is part of education here in New Zealand from the first day to the last at tertiary level... though obviously at higher levels it becomes optional.

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    Post  andalusia Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Me, being able to afford private schooling for my kids, don't really like.

    Didn't even realise you were Chinese.....   Razz

    I find it amazing that Americans consider public education to be Marxist and tend to support private schools; I guess it is an indication of American oligarchy tendencies.  

    You would be called a communist for your support for public education because Americans worship private markets and think anything government is evil and bad.

    Why do you think of the American hatred of all things government like education, health care and public transportation?

    Americans seem to trust big business over big government... which I find amusing considering Trump and Biden and the Clintons represent big business more than they represent big government....

    Private ownership suggests efficiency and less waste, while government run often suggests bloated over staffed and lazy and inefficient, but when it comes to prisons private ownership essentially turns your prison population into slave labour, and education into a serial production like for making accountants and economists and not much else because privately run schools have to make a profit or they are not interested.

    I noticed the other countries don't have high school or college sports.

    Not sure where you got that information from, sports is part of education here in New Zealand from the first day to the last at tertiary level... though obviously at higher levels it becomes optional.

    Didn't know that about New Zealand Garry B.  

    Just would like to know are American universities overrated and overhyped? How good are Russian universities?

    https://matadornetwork.com/life/us-colleges-are-overrated-overpriced/

    https://www.quora.com/Are-American-universities-over-hyped
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 pm

    par far wrote:I want to know what you guys think about this.


    I don't know how to feel.


    Me, being able to afford private schooling for my kids, don't really like.


    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/530256-china-private-education-non-profit/
    Any parent worth their salt should do whatever it takes to get their children a leg up over other people's children. I guarantee you rich Chinese would just find novel ways to bypass this restriction to give their children an overwhelming edge in education.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:45 pm

    But the question arises, is it really the upper education.
    As far as we face teams from Russia or China taking all the medals available on youth science Olympics ... well ... that gives something to think about.
    There is a funny shot taken at some of that contests, when "US Team won". The "US Team" consisted of Chinese. All of them. Laughing
    Remember, math is racist! Twisted Evil
    Besides, we could read lots of reports about the Anglo-Saxon beloved "exclusive boarding schools for the upper class". Bullying, violence, sexual abuse. Applied to 6y/o. Not sure if that is an example to follow if I were Chinese.

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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:04 am

    GarryB wrote:Private ownership suggests efficiency and less waste, while government run often suggests bloated over staffed and lazy and inefficient, but when it comes to prisons private ownership essentially turns your prison population into slave labour, and education into a serial production like for making accountants and economists and not much else because privately run schools have to make a profit or they are not interested.

    Private enterprise is indeed very efficient in generating a lot of surplus value for its own at the expense of everything else. The efficient-mind private business will never invest for development of the marginal, underdeveloped regions. Hence the equal development for all regions is mainly the burden of "inefficient" national community and an "inefficient" government which must be being put in the hand of the people, usually after a hard-fought struggle.

    The Chinese national railroad system is very "inefficient" under the eyes of the American capitalist because it has a tremendous business loss. But that no-profit system facilitate the necessary movement of the people and satisfy the needs of the community in many regions, which lead to sustainable and fruitful development for the whole nation in overall.

    But under the eyes of "efficient" American businessman who is very efficient in generating a lot of surplus value for himself at the expense of everything else, the Chinese railroad model is always a "failure", no matter what benefit it brings to the people at a whole.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:22 pm


    Just would like to know are American universities overrated and overhyped? How good are Russian universities?

    Sorry dude... I can give you an opinion but as I have no experience of either the opinion would not be worth much...

    My time at university here in New Zealand taught me you get out what you put in... work hard and turn up to lectures and labs and you get a piece of paper that will more often than not get you a job interview. From there on however it is job finding skills that count... find out a bit about the company and what they do and have some sensible questions to ask. Look at the companies mission statement on their website because that will give you an idea of the culture of the industry... and try to chat to people already working there...

    Private enterprise is indeed very efficient in generating a lot of surplus value for its own at the expense of everything else. The efficient-mind private business will never invest for development of the marginal, underdeveloped regions. Hence the equal development for all regions is mainly the burden of "inefficient" national community and an "inefficient" government which must be being put in the hand of the people, usually after a hard-fought struggle.

    I used the word suggests specifically. We used to have a government run telecommunications sector that was admittedly bloated and over staffed. One year we had a government that had been suggesting privatising the industry that finally got the chance to do it and they took that chance.

    What normally happens in this case is that if the government wants to privatise something they spend a few years putting unnecessary pressure on it... usually over working it and under funding it and so they can say this is broken so we need to privatise it to make it work and to bring in international competition which will make it cheaper for the customer because they will have more choice and bad operators will simply disappear because customers wont buy their products if they are bad or there is bad service.

    What happened here with Telecom, was that it was bought by a big foreign company... I think it was Canadian in fact. The amount they paid to buy it was about half the profit they made in the first year they owned it, so we really didn't sell high. The first thing they did was fire everyone, and then they hired all the compentent ones back on reduced wages, but only about 25% of the original work force, so they got less money and all the best ones went to other jobs for other companies, but they had to do the work for the other three people that got fired and didn't get hired again.

    That was OK to start with because a lot of people weren't doing very much most of the time... they were essentially there in case of a big product rollout where the extra bodies made things work much better.

    They bought it, fired a lot of people and ran the company for a few years and made enormous profits and then sold it for an even bigger profit before the broad band deluge hit.

    When you run a company understaffed then you start to get behind on normal operations, so things like preventative maintenance get delayed or cancelled... and you can't do that because without preventative maintenance you end up with catastrophic failures... which stops everything.

    Then broad band started to get popular which means laying enormous numbers of kms of fibre optics.... the new telecom couldn't cope...

    Of course many people don't even have land lines any more so it is not so important.

    The Chinese national railroad system is very "inefficient" under the eyes of the American capitalist because it has a tremendous business loss. But that no-profit system facilitate the necessary movement of the people and satisfy the needs of the community in many regions, which lead to sustainable and fruitful development for the whole nation in overall.

    Exactly... transport networks need to move products and people efficiently... it does not matter if it does not make a profit, as long as it achieves its goals of creating transport links. It is the same in Education and Health and the Prison service... the priority should not be profit... a drug company only interested in profit will stop making cures and start producing treatments so you end up with a country on opioids and other things that mask problems rather than solving them.
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    Post  par far Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:59 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    par far wrote:Me, being able to afford private schooling for my kids, don't really like.

    Would you like to elaborate more of your opinion about this ? (serious question, no mocking)



    When I went to school, my family could not afford to send me to private school(I had kids of relatives that went to private schools and now they have better jobs than me, not that my job is bad.)

    Now with my kids, I can afford to send them to private schools and they are/will be going to private schools.

    Why should you take away the privilege from me to not send my kids to a private school, there are families wayyyyyyyyyyy richer than me, who will be sending their kids to even better schools.

    There are the uber wealthy that buy their kids everything they want.

    What I am trying to say is, not go after the middle class, go after everyone, even the uber rich but that won't happen.

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