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    The morality and ethical future for the west and the rest of the world.

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    If the west starts talking about partnerships and cooperation Putin should say no thanks.


    I think its desireable if there could be some sort of cooperation. The problem is, how do you trust the USA? The politics are totally bipolar and agreements are worthless. They have broken almost every treaty they make and even **** around with "close allys" like Canada. and sanction Euopean allys!! Putin should just parrot what the USA says. He will defend Russian interests and when those interests align with American interests he will cooperarate. When they don't, dialog should be open so as to avoid military conflict.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:16 am

    If Russia turns into another US then in the long term they will likely suffer the same fate.

    The western model so far has been to abuse and exploit the so called third world, which they see as backward but resource rich because they have not already been gone over with a fine tooth comb for resources that are easy and cheap to extract and exploit, while "fighting" the commies... the second world... similar technology and potential to us in the first world but our aggression and hostility means they are wasting their money on locks on doors and security systems, while we enjoy our money and assets.

    The western model does not allow countries to move from their station... the west remains on top, the commies next and the poor remain the poor.

    Russia and China have the potential to turn that around and say there is no first or second or third world... we have stuff and you have stuff lets just trade... we can develop and make money... not the eye watering empires of money in the west, but just a fair amount to make us happy but also you make money and DEVELOP and GROW so you become more powerful and REMAIN independent... we are not going to change you to become more like us and you are not going to change us either... lets remain different, but trade so we can buy and sell what we want and make everyones lives better so everyone can have running water... and inside toilets... not just in cities but technology making life easier for everyone including the poor... in fact lets get rid of poor... give them a chance to work their way out of poverty... don't throw money at them for doing nothing, but give them useful work and pay them a living wage so they can see them and their children having a future.

    The western model simply does not work and has not worked for hundreds of years... we need something new... a multipolar world where no one country is in charge because of its military power.
    medo
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    Post  medo Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:53 am

    Russia actually is the only country, which could bring a new model and paradigm of civilisation. Russia is spiritually rich, specially if they will return from Othodox Christianity back to ancient vedic Russian civilisation. Russia is the only one, who have everything at home and doesn't need to steel anything from others.

    Anyone know, if Russia could modify any standard MiG-31 to MiG-31K/D to use them with Kinzhal or antisat missile or they could only modernize existing ones, which were made in small numbers.
    Finty
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    Post  Finty Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:01 pm

    I appreciate this is off topic but if Russia wants to do all that, they should start at home by stamping out that literal case of Sharia law over in Chechnya.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:37 pm

    Finty wrote:I appreciate this is off topic but if Russia wants to do all that, they should start at home by stamping out that literal case of Sharia law over in Chechnya.

    Can't really do that

    EU and USA were very clear on minority rights and PR hassle isn't worth the effort

    Too much work over nothing

    Plus if locals don't like it they can just get on the bus and move away

    flamming_python
    flamming_python

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:18 am

    Russia's not going to turn into another version of America

    It learned its lessons from the Soviet-era about promoting a messianic ideology abroad with huge resources and in general just putting in all that effort and all that ambition, only to end up with debts to it from countries that could never pay it off, it's own foreign debt that it couldn't pay off either, and no thank-you note in the mail either, just a bunch of bitter neighbours.

    It's not going to go down that route again. Nor does it really have some civilization model or whatever at the moment that's worth exporting. A rehash of some Tsarist Russia themes, mixed in with Lenin statues, and a modern federalism model, which isn't applied consistently either.

    But what it definitely is interested in is making money and opening up foreign markets.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:40 am

    Nobody has a clue what a "better" civilization model looks like. The fact that Russia "has nothing" to export puts it somewhere top of
    the list in terms of the best countries on the planet. All the countries with "something to export" are variants of a toilet. This includes
    the USA today. If you want oppression, then demand a national ideology.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:27 am

    flamming_python wrote:Russia's not going to turn into another version of America

    It learned its lessons from the Soviet-era about promoting a messianic ideology abroad with huge resources and in general just putting in all that effort and all that ambition, only to end up with debts to it from countries that could never pay it off, it's own foreign debt that it couldn't pay off either, and no thank-you note in the mail either, just a bunch of bitter neighbours.

    It's not going to go down that route again. Nor does it really have some civilization model or whatever at the moment that's worth exporting. A rehash of some Tsarist Russia themes, mixed in with Lenin statues, and a modern federalism model, which isn't applied consistently either.

    But what it definitely is interested in is making money and opening up foreign markets.

    Agreed, but the problem is that the US policy makers will never except a multi-polar world. It is not in their economic interest to do so. They need enemies to "thrive".

    That's why Russia needs to keep on building wonderful planes like the Mig-31's! Laughing

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:07 pm

    Mir wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Russia's not going to turn into another version of America

    It learned its lessons from the Soviet-era about promoting a messianic ideology abroad with huge resources and in general just putting in all that effort and all that ambition, only to end up with debts to it from countries that could never pay it off, it's own foreign debt that it couldn't pay off either, and no thank-you note in the mail either, just a bunch of bitter neighbours.

    It's not going to go down that route again. Nor does it really have some civilization model or whatever at the moment that's worth exporting. A rehash of some Tsarist Russia themes, mixed in with Lenin statues, and a modern federalism model, which isn't applied consistently either.

    But what it definitely is interested in is making money and opening up foreign markets.

    Agreed, but the problem is that the US policy makers will never except a multi-polar world. It is not in their economic interest to do so. They need enemies to "thrive".

    That's why Russia needs to keep on building wonderful planes like the Mig-31's! Laughing

    Naturally material interests underpin all this ideology stuff.

    It's the motivation that comes first (American bourgeois getting tired of paying the English king taxes), and the justification that's thought up of later (liberty, republicanism, democracy, etc..)

    But idealism also comes to drive decision-making itself to larger or lesser degrees, as even our leaders are only human, and the desire to have other countries become like you so that you can have more permanent 'friends' is an important motivator too.

    Russia just needs to avoid all that. It can't let ideology or messianism creep into its foreign policy nor its way of thinking about the world.

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