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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:42 pm

    par far wrote:
    Hole wrote:I can´t find the word "deal" spoken by Putin. Instead he spoke about the lies and broken promises of the western saints.


    Putin has learned in 2014 to not trust the west and that the west won't respect any deal they sign.

    I've been paying attention longer than this. He also made similar statements back during 2008 war in Georgia when he was PM.

    He was less bombastic though. But things have changed and he is now becoming rather bombastic himself. And it's something that is needed.

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #30 - Page 25 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

    Post  ALAMO Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:52 pm

    Russia in 2008 is not the Russia in 2021.
    You talk hard only if your fist is ready.
    Kagda draka nieizbiezna, take nada bit' pierwym ...

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:10 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    As Janukowicz was clearly informed by the Russian side, that it is a no-go scenario, he had to pick the side. He picked the right one, from the Ukrainian perspective. But the wrong one for already boiling mob, fuelled by the other oligarchs.

    It was actually the EU who told Yanukovich that quite openly. Maybe Russia had the same position but if it did it never voiced it aloud.
    When Yanukovich decided to sign the agreement with Russia, Washington and the EU countries decided to overthrow him.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:25 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Russia is stronger without it. Without a lot of baggage.  I guess Russian true weakness is its inability to work with foreign entities around it to spark a pro Russian population and youth. Instead it does the cheap and easy way - looking through to just basic oligarchs and politicians.  When instead, it needs to look at the people as a whole.   So it loses allies quickly due to these colored revolutions.

    That much is very true.

    But it's really a reflection of Russia itself. Russia looks at other countries through the perspective of building such ties of the nobility; understandings with local ruling clans, oligarchs, individual statesmen.

    It does not spend energy on trying to win the people over to its side especially, some primitive hearts & minds initiatives like in Syria and the Central African Republic aside. This is because it considers that the people are irrelevant, that everything that ever happens is the result of some political clan's machinations, oligarch plot, someone giving money, etc... it views the greater people as controllable and easily appealable through material improvements.
    But this fails to take into account the very much organic, bottom-up changes, revolutions, protests, etc... that countries sometimes face. The people as a whole, are not going to plot or decide some new course for foreign policy or on a new ideology, but they have a mind of their own and can decide who they will support and what's in their interests. They decide when enough is enough and in the most extreme case, they can mobilize behind some radical force willingly, as long as it means the assholes in power being thrown out of power.

    For this reason the mass protests in Khabarovsk last year after the referendum and the arrest of the local governor took the Kremlin completely by surprise. They tried to figure out who was behind it, who planned it, which oligarchs, which party, etc... but as it turns out nobody did. It was the people themselves who came out en masse, the whole city rose up to give the finger to Moscow. The referendum was viewed as a farce and the arrest of the governor was the spark that ignited the petrol.
    As it was a completely grass-roots event with no organization or party behind it (those that attempted to co-opt it were simply unable to), no ideology and only a shared interest of displaying disagreement with the federal authorities - it did not amount to anything ultimately. It died down after some weeks. However the discontent that it demonstrated is still there. If someone were able to harness it, through argument, charisma, popularity and winning the trust of people - they would quickly amass a considerable amount of political power in the country, and without necessarily having much backing by domestic or foreign power-brokers.

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #30 - Page 25 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:39 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Russia is stronger without it. Without a lot of baggage.  I guess Russian true weakness is its inability to work with foreign entities around it to spark a pro Russian population and youth. Instead it does the cheap and easy way - looking through to just basic oligarchs and politicians.  When instead, it needs to look at the people as a whole.   So it loses allies quickly due to these colored revolutions.

    That much is very true.

    But it's really a reflection of Russia itself. Russia looks at other countries through the perspective of building such ties of the nobility; understandings with local ruling clans, oligarchs, individual statesmen.

    It does not spend energy on trying to win the people over to its side especially, some primitive hearts & minds initiatives like in Syria and the Central African Republic aside. This is because it considers that the people are irrelevant, that everything that ever happens is the result of some political clan's machinations, oligarch plot, someone giving money, etc... it views the greater people as controllable and easily appealable through material improvements.
    But this fails to take into account the very much organic, bottom-up changes, revolutions, protests, etc... that countries sometimes face. The people as a whole, are not going to plot or decide some new course for foreign policy or on a new ideology, but they have a mind of their own and can decide who they will support and what's in their interests. They decide when enough is enough and in the most extreme case, they can mobilize behind some radical force willingly, as long as it means the assholes in power being thrown out of power.

    For this reason the mass protests in Khabarovsk last year after the referendum and the arrest of the local governor took the Kremlin completely by surprise. They tried to figure out who was behind it, who planned it, which oligarchs, which party, etc... but as it turns out nobody did. It was the people themselves who came out en masse, the whole city rose up to give the finger to Moscow. The referendum was viewed as a farce and the arrest of the governor was the spark that ignited the petrol.
    As it was a completely grass-roots event with no organization or party behind it (those that attempted to co-opt it were simply unable to), no ideology and only a shared interest of displaying disagreement with the federal authorities - it did not amount to anything ultimately. It died down after some weeks. However the discontent that it demonstrated is still there. If someone were able to harness it, through argument, charisma, popularity and winning the trust of people - they would quickly amass a considerable amount of political power in the country, and without necessarily having much backing by domestic or foreign power-brokers.

    that I dont believe at all.

    I was reading various sources like antimaiden and they themselves proved it was backed by LDPR and to some degree, libtards.  The referendum wasn't even close to a farce as it was national voted.

    But you kinda showed your hand in your bias so I dont really take what you say about the events in place at face value (communists live in a strange fantasy).  Things in Russia has been far better for people on the individual level than anything else and so it isn't about them not caring about the "small people".

    Russia has 20 different countries that observe its elections.  And elections have shown that in the end, the current party hold the most popular.  There wouldn't be mass protests and those protests in Khabarovsk dwindled and died down rather quickly compared to most countries.  So it wasn't really strong to begin with.  It was a surprise but the authorities did the best thing possible - let it continue and dwindle down on its own.  And that is what it did.  In the end, the support just wasnt there.  If it was as easy as you said, people would still be out protesting regardless.  They aren't.

    As for the person who was arrested, if it is true he was a criminal and had someone murdered, that just makes the locals look really bad to support such a character anyway.

    Also, to add, regarding about the people part, you need to understand that they are duped regardless. Look at Ukraine. Most were "duped" after 2014 and fled the country. Only ones that stayed behind were morons, criminals and poor people or people held hostage for most part. This goes for everywhere. You still need to get the support from the oligarchs and officials of some sort. Majority of Ukraines intelligence agency was compromised to the west. Why else do you think these things are successful? It isn't the people. It is just that Russia needs to get more of the people on its side cause they cannot win in a propaganda war against the west due to the wests heavy funding.

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    Post  kvs Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:49 pm

    @flamming_python

    That is a comically reductionist view.   Russians love to bitch a lot about how they don't have it good enough in their "abnormal"
    country.   They should move to their mythical west, as I have done, and live it up.   People love their myths and delusions.    Russians
    have it better than Canadians who are told what to do by their regime and obey.   Canadians think they live in a democracy.   LOL.

    The idea that Putin and the Russian government believe and act as if the people are irrelevant is complete nonsense.  That is actually
    a better description of the Orwellian west where the elites do think of the electorate as trash and treat it accordingly.   You confuse
    optics with substance.   In Russia there is always a degree of flexibility since for centuries nobody was a goose-stepping conformist.
    In the west, you better love the law and don't get any strange ideas about accommodation.   The western decoration of democracy
    is to cover up its long history of all or nothing politics.   Russia has a tradition of inclusion and that is why the term was Tsar of all
    the Russias.

    You clearly have an axe to grind against Russia.   Supposedly you are a communist.  Regardless, you try very hard to paint Russia
    like some copy of Ukraine where everything is about oligarchs and mafia clans.   Your example shows that there is a lack of the
    tyranny that anti-Russian projectionists always yammer on about.   A mafia state like Ukraine makes sure that all the clans are
    in tight coordination.   That is the nature of organized crime.   Putin not micro-managing every crack in Russia proves that it is
    not a mafia state.  If it was one you would never see any such problems.

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:54 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    that I dont believe at all.

    I was reading various sources like antimaiden and they themselves proved it was backed by LDPR and to some degree, libtards.  The referendum wasn't even close to a farce as it was national voted.

    Oh everyone certainly rushed to get a piece of the popularity train. Communists arrived there, liberals, people from every party great and small. Someone living in America was talking about setting up a national 'congress' (he considered it important to use the word 'congress') and then angling for recognition by South Korea, Japan and other countries.

    But none of them created it. Even the local governor didn't create it. The local people created it and their only motive was to tell Moscow that they don't agree either with the referendum, or its arbitrary decisions about getting rid of legitimately elected governors who happen to disagree with the center.

    But you kinda showed your hand in your bias so I dont really take what you say about the events in place at face value (communists live in a strange fantasy).  Things in Russia has been far better for people on the individual level than anything else and so it isn't about them not caring about the "small people".

    No I'm explaining the symptom that you yourself noticed. I'm telling you what problem it's indicative of, the Russian ruling class neither trusts its own people nor respects them as a potential force in their own right, and this projects to their dealings with other countries around the world too, including failures in their policies like what happened in the Ukraine through their support of Yanukovich.

    Russia has 20 different countries that observe its elections.  And elections have shown that in the end, the current party hold the most popular.  There wouldn't be mass protests and those protests in Khabarovsk dwindled and died down rather quickly compared to most countries.  So it wasn't really strong to begin with.

    And all of those countries are going to say what Moscow wants to hear, why would they say different. And when Russia observes their elections, our election observers will also tell those countries what they want to hear.
    The scheme is not difficult to figure out and you don't have to be some opposition liberal to realize the obvious.

    The mass protests in Khabarovsk were massive and included the entire population of the city. Those that were not directly marching, were beeping their car horns while driving by. I think there were some brief strikes at factories as well. By most estimates some 10% of the city's population was marching at some point - disregarding those at work, too old or too young; that's a far far greater percentage than any Navalny has ever achieved or that old fossil Zyuganov or the government's now defunct Nashi movement or anything else.
    It most closely compares with the scale of the protests in Minsk at the same time. In that case, the protests were orchestrated by foreign intelligence agencies and liberal, pro-Western regime opponents in advance, but the motive force was given by the faked elections which outraged the population. You would hardly accuse Minsk and the wider Belarussian population of being liberals, or wanting some Ukrainian-like nationalist government, that's not at all true, but they were ready to march and be led by the nose because of the callousness with which Lukashenko regarded his own people and how transparent it was to them. His arrogance nearly caused his own downfall, and Moscow got a taste of the same lesson in Khabarovsk.

    In the case of Khabarovsk it died down quicker than the protests in Minsk because the government adopted the right tactics. It sent people there to negotiate with the protestors, and absolutely avoided using a heavy hand. No political party or force were able to take advantage of the protests because the people were not protesting for that aim and themselves had disparate and varying political sympathies, they were only there because they were united in opposing the arrest of their governor.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:59 pm

    kvs wrote:@flamming_python

    That is a comically reductionist view.   Russians love to bitch a lot about how they don't have it good enough in their "abnormal"
    country.   They should move to their mythical west, as I have done, and live it up.   People love their myths and delusions.    Russians
    have it better than Canadians who are told what to do by their regime and obey.   Canadians think they live in a democracy.   LOL.

    The idea that Putin and the Russian government believe and act as if the people are irrelevant is complete nonsense.  That is actually
    a better description of the Orwellian west where the elites do think of the electorate as trash and treat it accordingly.   You confuse
    optics with substance.   In Russia there is always a degree of flexibility since for centuries nobody was a goose-stepping conformist.
    In the west, you better love the law and don't get any strange ideas about accommodation.   The western decoration of democracy
    is to cover up its long history of all or nothing politics.   Russia has a tradition of inclusion and that is why the term was Tsar of all
    the Russias.

    You clearly have an axe to grind against Russia.   Supposedly you are a communist.  Regardless, you try very hard to paint Russia
    like some copy of Ukraine where everything is about oligarchs and mafia clans.   Your example shows that there is a lack of the
    tyranny that anti-Russian projectionists always yammer on about.   A mafia state like Ukraine makes sure that all the clans are
    in tight coordination.   That is the nature of organized crime.   Putin not micro-managing every crack in Russia proves that it is
    not a mafia state.  If it was one you would never see any such problems.

    What destroys his argument is a couple of things:

    - Russian elections are monitored by various countries. American and Canadian are not monitored by anyone (definitely not american. Not sure about Canadian).
    - Russians are allowed to protest. See recent years. Russian protestors if out of hand may get a hit with a baton and dragged away into a van to go to a jail cell. In the west, rubber bullets, tear gas, water cannons, etc.
    - The protests he mentions were very short lived, no damage to property, not really that large (large for that city mind you), and many turned up to push their agenda (communists did, LDPR did (since the arrested governor was LDPR), etc). Protests in the United States saw burning of businesses, people murdered on the street, kangaroo court cases, blatant ignoring of one side vs the other, etc. Protests in France went on for a year (yellow vests) with people even punching Macron in the face. Nothing.
    - Corrupt individuals in Russia is getting arrested left, right and center. In Canada, our Prime Minister wasn't only caught funneling money to his family members, he tried to destroy the evidence too. And what he got? re-elected. This is just one example.
    - Since Russian elections are heavily monitored, it makes it far more legitimate than most other nations elections. Add to that, Putin and the United Russia party still gets far more majority of the votes. What, 60%? What was Donald Trumps? What was Joe Bidens? What is Macrons? They are all in the 30% ranges. It is just that it was enough for them to win over the other party. This may also have to do with the fact that they included in mail in votes which had a whole lot of bullshit behind it.

    Flaming has his views. I dont agree with them at all and he over exaggerates on them. One thing I noticed when talking to him vs other communists (or self proclaimed at least) on twitter, is they are exactly the same mentality - everything is bad, evil, corrupt and oligarchs in Russia while everywhere else is good. When I point their fallacies and nonsense, they either get really aggressive or use false equivalences. But I know his heart is in the right place, he wants Russia to be independent, strong, united and in a way where things are perfect for everyone where no one lives on the streets, where everyone has good education and healthcare and what not. I respect that. Most of them are like that too. But they dont have a strong grasp of reality. But things couldn't be that bad since Flaming was living in London, UK. Moved back to Russia. So he has experience.

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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:00 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    that I dont believe at all.

    I was reading various sources like antimaiden and they themselves proved it was backed by LDPR and to some degree, libtards.  The referendum wasn't even close to a farce as it was national voted.

    Oh everyone certainly rushed to get a piece of the popularity train. Communists arrived there, liberals, people from every party great and small. Someone living in America was talking about setting up a national 'congress' (he considered it important to use the word 'congress') and then angling for recognition by South Korea, Japan and other countries.

    But none of them created it. Even the local governor didn't create it. The local people created it and their only motive was to tell Moscow that they don't agree either with the referendum, or its arbitrary decisions about getting rid of legitimately elected governors who happen to disagree with the center.

    But you kinda showed your hand in your bias so I dont really take what you say about the events in place at face value (communists live in a strange fantasy).  Things in Russia has been far better for people on the individual level than anything else and so it isn't about them not caring about the "small people".

    No I'm explaining the symptom that you yourself noticed. I'm telling you what problem it's indicative of, the Russian ruling class neither trusts its own people nor respects them as a potential force in their own right, and this projects to their dealings with other countries around the world too, including failures in their policies like what happened in the Ukraine through their support of Yanukovich.

    Russia has 20 different countries that observe its elections.  And elections have shown that in the end, the current party hold the most popular.  There wouldn't be mass protests and those protests in Khabarovsk dwindled and died down rather quickly compared to most countries.  So it wasn't really strong to begin with.

    And all of those countries are going to say what Moscow wants to hear, why would they say different. And when Russia observes their elections, our election observers will also tell those countries what they want to hear.
    The scheme is not difficult to figure out and you don't have to be some opposition liberal to realize the obvious.

    The mass protests in Khabarovsk were massive and included the entire population of the city. Those that were not directly marching, were beeping their car horns while driving by. I think there were some brief strikes at factories as well. By most estimates some 10% of the city's population was marching at some point - that's a far far greater percentage than any Navalny has ever achieved or that old fossil Zyuganov or the government's now defunct Nashi movement or anything else.
    It most closely compares with the scale of the protests in Minsk at the same time. In that case, the protests were orchestrated by foreign intelligence agencies and liberal, pro-Western regime opponents in advance, but the motive force was given by the faked elections which outraged the population. You would hardly accuse Minsk and the wider Belarussian population of being liberals, or wanting some Ukrainian-like nationalist government, that's not at all true, but they were ready to march and be led by the nose because of the callousness with which Lukashenko regarded his own people and how transparent it was to them. His arrogance nearly caused his own downfall, and Moscow got a taste of the same lesson in Khabarovsk.

    In the case of Khabarovsk it died down quicker than the protests in Minsk because the government adopted the right tactics. It sent people there to negotiate with the protestors, and absolutely avoided using a heavy hand. No political party or force were able to take advantage of the protests because the people were not protesting for that aim and themselves had disparate and varying political sympathies, they were only there because they were united in opposing the arrest of their governor.

    Actually, US is part of those 20 countries you know.  It is part of the OSCE.  And no, the population of the entire city didn't come out and protest.  One thing was, I did follow Bryan MacDonald when he covered the protests.

    You will always find politicians, be it no matter where (including USSR), who had disdain for its own people. Hence why the issue of Russia losing territory to Ukraine SSR and the events now. This is blatantly obvious. We get disdain from our MP here Jason Kenney (guy is from Ontario yet he is the premier of Alberta, wow). If you look at the United States, I think you would have a heart attack. No matter what you do, you will always find someone with money and power who does not trust their own people. Doesn't mean all "Ruling class" does though. Hence why they send people to negotiate with protestors rather than beating the shit out of them, locking them down, water cannoning them, throwing them in jail for 20 years because of a facebook post being "mean", etc.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:01 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Actually, US is part of those 20 countries you know.

    And they're always going to say what's in their interests to say too
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:06 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Actually, US is part of those 20 countries you know.

    And they're always going to say what's in their interests to say too

    It is all the OSCE.  So most of those countries involved all hate Russia for most part.  Hence why OSCE is losing its value.  Recall how they were openly helping Ukrainian forces artillery to direct fire on locations in LDPR.

    My disdain for that organization is beyond words at this point.  They are responsible for the death of many of my own compatriots (large part of my family is from that region).  They can go pound sand.

    But they should be monitoring elections also in Canada, US and other places.  I doubt they would report any stealing of ballots like what happened in the US.  Remember, even the Simpsons did an episode long ago, the one where Sideshow Bob runs for mayor, and joked about dead people voting.  Yeah, its a major problem here.  But like the whole "Hollywood raping woman and children" thing, it was a known secret.

    I agree with every country having others monitoring their elections. I have nothing against that.

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Actually, US is part of those 20 countries you know.

    And they're always going to say what's in their interests to say too

    It is all the OSCE.  So most of those countries involved all hate Russia for most part.  Hence why OSCE is losing its value.  Recall how they were openly helping Ukrainian forces artillery to direct fire on locations in LDPR.

    My disdain for that organization is beyond words at this point.  They are responsible for the death of many of my own compatriots (large part of my family is from that region).  They can go pound sand.

    But they should be monitoring elections also in Canada, US and other places.  I doubt they would report any stealing of ballots like what happened in the US.  Remember, even the Simpsons did an episode long ago, the one where Sideshow Bob runs for mayor, and joked about dead people voting.  Yeah, its a major problem here.  But like the whole "Hollywood raping woman and children" thing, it was a known secret.

    I agree with every country having others monitoring their elections.  I have nothing against that.

    I'm not an expert on the issue of monitoring elections, and who monitors whose

    Ideally yes, every country should be monitoring everyone else's elections, because then any manipulation and self-interest would average out. Sort of how free media is not one particular news outlet, but a state arising from the juxtaposition of all of them. You should allow your people access to all media from every country, so that they can get every viewpoint and make up their minds for themselves.

    In practice though observation monitoring is far from what we get with free access to the media and internet right now, or so it would seem to me from my limited reading on the matter. Instead it's either used as a means of legitimization by whatever government from its friends, or as a tool of pressure and regime change. No middle ground, and not enough countries engaged in the process and allowing election monitors from every country rather than select ones.
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    Post  medo Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:05 am

    https://novorosinform.org/silami-dnr-obezvrezheny-dva-udarnyh-bespilotnika-vsu-84284.html

    DNR air defense landed two Ukrainian drones, armed with explosive devices, with electronic warfare complex. One landed on DNR side and the other landed on ukrainian side of line.

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    Post  VARGR198 Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:35 am

    As of 22.00 (local time) this evening the number of protesters in Kiev is approaching 5,000 and are continuing to grow. Many are men in camouflage and nationalist slogans are being chanted.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #30 - Page 25 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:57 am

    VARGR198 wrote:As of 22.00 (local time) this evening the number of protesters in Kiev is approaching 5,000 and are continuing to grow.  Many are men in camouflage and nationalist slogans are being chanted.

    Zelensky has been harping on about a coup plot against him over the past week, and has mobilized police and national guard to the streets of Kiev as of today

    Well the nationalists are just tools of the oligarchs, so it looks like said oligarchs might be making their move. They don't want to be the ones clinging onto the fuselage on the last plane out of Kiev if things keep escalating with Russia as they are now.

    But who knows what's going on. Maybe it's just theater.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:37 am

    Welp, looks like the rhetoric is heating up

    https://twitter.com/PolitNavigator/status/1466120328145477633
    “You will wash yourself with blood! Ten Russians for a Ukrainian! " - Pastor Turchinov delivered his favorite sermon on the Maidan.

    (Turchinov was installed as the acting president of the Ukraine right after the coup, and started the war in the east)

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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:44 am

    If you go by the commentary here...

    Meanwhile in reality....

    Putin calls on NATO to do a deal

    You are trying to make it sound like Putin has folded.... after HATO has talked about moving tactical nuclear weapons from Germany to a rotation around the Baltic States and Eastern Europe, and has been talking about massive Russian buildups on the Ukraine border and increasing weapon supplies to that broken state...

    Sounds to me like HATO having realised it cut all communication ties with Russia needs to provoke Russia into being interested in talks and it is their desperate and ridiculous actions that got Putin to agree to talks... and I suspect they think they can outwit him and get concessions, but honestly I am doubting this.

    I think behind doors they will be desperate to offload Kiev onto Russia and help with migrant and covid problems....

    The Russians will probably never learn. They'll be begging for deals that the US won't give a shit about.

    But that is the point Russia does want deals the US doesn't give a shit about... the US could care less about a war in Ukraine, and only cares about itself and wont sign any deals that Russia is interested unless forced or bribed or leverage is used.

    I am sure if they don't offer anything interesting for Russia that Putin will just walk away... he does not need any agreements... especially ones they will withdraw from when it suits them.

    QED

    It is what they are hoping for, but really this is more likely... something like Stalin under there because that is what is left of Russian patience.

    He was less bombastic though. But things have changed and he is now becoming rather bombastic himself. And it's something that is needed.

    I think he is never going to be as hard line against them as they are to him and Russia, but most of the goodwill and trust is gone so they are going to have to make some serious and important offers to him to get him to "deal" and there are things the west wants that he will never agree to anyway.

    He has a better understanding of them now.

    You talk hard only if your fist is ready.

    That is the core of the problem, you get your fist ready to negotiate with an enemy that wants to kill you... it makes sense from a Russian perspective because for all their clever words HATO is all about the US keeping the EU and Russia apart politically and economically and therefore also militarily.

    The fact that Russia does not want to invade Germany makes a mockery of Germany thinking the best way to negotiate with Russia is from a position of strength... as far as Russia is concerned Germany has no military strength and talk of nuclear weapons is just an empty threat... it is not Germany waving around a pistol and making threats... they are waving around a 100kg aviation bomb that would kill everyone... including themselves so there is no value in actually using it unless they thought they were already dead.

    It was actually the EU who told Yanukovich that quite openly. Maybe Russia had the same position but if it did it never voiced it aloud.

    There were no such demands from Russia, it is the US and EU that demand exclusive rights to markets and economies... they don't share well... the US CAASTA law is just blatant evidence of this.

    “You will wash yourself with blood! Ten Russians for a Ukrainian! " - Pastor Turchinov delivered his favorite sermon on the Maidan.

    What an angry little man.

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:45 am

    Just ten?

    That's pussy numbers, their role models were doing hundred back in a day

    How the "mighty" have fallen



    But seriously, they will either start war again as a hail Mary and a distraction for sheep or they will all freeze to death soon

    Problem is that they know that they will get assraped if they try anything so it's Sophie's choice for 404



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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:28 am

    As they get closer to the rim of no return, they swirl around the toilet bowl faster and faster

    But make no mistake this is a dangerous situation
    The Ukraine has the full support of the West in creating a suicide torpedo out of itself and money, militants and arms may flow as soon as the conflict re-enters it's hot phase.

    Russia should restrict itself to destroying any attempted Ukrainian offensive, and leave it at that. All these fantasies about reunifying Russian lands, getting rid of all the Nazis and so on are ultimately the same fallacy of nation building that the US made in Iraq and Afghanistan. Little different.

    No reason for Russia to get mired into a quagmire, or resolve any problems in the Ukraine. There is no-one left to talk to there. Keep the objectives limited, and restricted to military ones only. Time will sort all the rest of the issues out, once any offensive is dissolved.

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    Post  par far Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:50 am

    flamming_python wrote:Welp, looks like the rhetoric is heating up

    https://twitter.com/PolitNavigator/status/1466120328145477633
    “You will wash yourself with blood! Ten Russians for a Ukrainian! " - Pastor Turchinov delivered his favorite sermon on the Maidan.

    (Turchinov was installed as the acting president of the Ukraine right after the coup, and started the war in the east)



    What do you expect these idiots to say?

    Very soon, cocksuckers like these will get their millions and live in luxury somewhere in the west, while the country they were born in, is destroyed and these assholes are responsible for it.

    These bastards are a disgrace to the womb they came out of.

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    Post  par far Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:58 am

    flamming_python wrote:As they get closer to the rim of no return, they swirl around the toilet bowl faster and faster

    But make no mistake this is a dangerous situation
    The Ukraine has the full support of the West in creating a suicide torpedo out of itself and money, militants and arms may flow as soon as the conflict re-enters it's hot phase.

    Russia should restrict itself to destroying any attempted Ukrainian offensive, and leave it at that. All these fantasies about reunifying Russian lands, getting rid of all the Nazis and so on are ultimately the same fallacy of nation building that the US made in Iraq and Afghanistan. Little different.

    No reason for Russia to get mired into a quagmire, or resolve any problems in the Ukraine. There is no-one left to talk to there. Keep the objectives limited, and restricted to military ones only. Time will sort all the rest of the issues out, once any offensive is dissolved.

    Russia already knows this, Russia got what it needed and that was Crimea.

    The Donbass region is already integrated into the Russian economy somewhat and this will continue to happen even more.

    All of the industries in Ukraine are destroyed and they have moved to Russia, Russia got a lot of educated Russian speaking population.

    Russia has gotten everything it needs from Ukraine.

    Ukraine is now the wests problem. Russia knows this, the west knows this and this is why the west is trying to get Russia to talk to Ukraine directly, the west wants to dump Ukraine onto to Russia.

    But Russia said, **** you, no.

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:02 am

    par far wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:As they get closer to the rim of no return, they swirl around the toilet bowl faster and faster

    But make no mistake this is a dangerous situation
    The Ukraine has the full support of the West in creating a suicide torpedo out of itself and money, militants and arms may flow as soon as the conflict re-enters it's hot phase.

    Russia should restrict itself to destroying any attempted Ukrainian offensive, and leave it at that. All these fantasies about reunifying Russian lands, getting rid of all the Nazis and so on are ultimately the same fallacy of nation building that the US made in Iraq and Afghanistan. Little different.

    No reason for Russia to get mired into a quagmire, or resolve any problems in the Ukraine. There is no-one left to talk to there. Keep the objectives limited, and restricted to military ones only. Time will sort all the rest of the issues out, once any offensive is dissolved.

    Russia already knows this, Russia got what it needed and that was Crimea.

    The Donbass region is already integrated into the Russian economy somewhat and this will continue to happen even more.

    All of the industries in Ukraine are destroyed and they have moved to Russia, Russia got a lot of educated Russian speaking population.

    Russia has gotten everything it needs from Ukraine.

    Ukraine is now the wests problem. Russia knows this, the west knows this and this is why the west is trying to get Russia to talk to Ukraine directly, the west wants to dump Ukraine onto to Russia.

    But Russia said, **** you, no.

    Well yeah, exactly.

    But Russia should not let them dump the Ukraine in its lap. In fact the Ukraine is now knocking on Russia's door and they have a chip on their shoulder. No thank you.

    Grab the knife from them before they do damage, punch them in the face, and slam the door on them while they're disorientated. End of.
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:44 am

    flamming_python wrote:As they get closer to the rim of no return, they swirl around the toilet bowl faster and faster

    But make no mistake this is a dangerous situation
    The Ukraine has the full support of the West in creating a suicide torpedo out of itself and money, militants and arms may flow as soon as the conflict re-enters it's hot phase.

    Russia should restrict itself to destroying any attempted Ukrainian offensive, and leave it at that. All these fantasies about reunifying Russian lands, getting rid of all the Nazis and so on are ultimately the same fallacy of nation building that the US made in Iraq and Afghanistan. Little different.

    No reason for Russia to get mired into a quagmire, or resolve any problems in the Ukraine. There is no-one left to talk to there. Keep the objectives limited, and restricted to military ones only. Time will sort all the rest of the issues out, once any offensive is dissolved.

    I'm not sure where the guys from the Duran said it came from, but my understanding is that the Russians already hinted that they would do strategic strikes against Ukraine if they tried anything, and do so from within Russia, and let the forces for DNR/LNR be what is needed to create a new region. Won't be under Russian control, but be an ally.

    This is most sensible. Russia doesn't need to own those lands, but create new states and make allies of them.
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    Post  x_54_u43 Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:07 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Just ten?

    That's pussy numbers, their role models were doing hundred back in a day

    How the "mighty" have fallen



    But seriously, they will either start war again as a hail Mary and a distraction for sheep or they will all freeze to death soon

    Problem is that they know that they will get assraped if they try anything so it's Sophie's choice for 404





    Far more Axis troops died on the Eastern European front than Soviet when the war was over.

    It's a common sore loser myth trotted out of muh Aryans killing 10 for every death or whatever, but when you actually start including the enormous amounts of troops(Italian, Romanian, there's a long list) that weren't Nazi German oriented, the myth starts to die out.

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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:45 am

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Just ten?

    That's pussy numbers, their role models were doing hundred back in a day

    How the "mighty" have fallen



    But seriously, they will either start war again as a hail Mary and a distraction for sheep or they will all freeze to death soon

    Problem is that they know that they will get assraped if they try anything so it's Sophie's choice for 404





    Far more Axis troops died on the Eastern European front than Soviet when the war was over.

    It's a common sore loser myth trotted out of muh Aryans killing 10 for every death or whatever, but when you actually start including the enormous amounts of troops(Italian, Romanian, there's a long list) that weren't Nazi German oriented, the myth starts to die out.

    I read it as he was talking about how they used to claim more than they do now. But I dunno.

    Anyway


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