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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:46 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    MOSCOW, July 15 - RIA Novosti. Former Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov will replace Dmitry Rogozin as head of Roskosmos, the corresponding decrees were signed by Russian President Vladimir Putin.
    The documents are published on the Kremlin website.

    I suspect PapaDragon will throw in a big party tonight! Very Happy

    Backman wrote:Is Papadragon awake yet ? lol1

    Right here thumbsup drunken

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 32 Dxb_e9SX0AI6YnK




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    Post  thegopnik Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:59 pm

    I will be in tears laughing getting myself drunk if Rogozin replaces Zelensky after the war lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1

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    Post  kvs Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:14 am

    Rogozin was not a technocrat but a fix it man and politician. He did the job of rescuing Roscosmos from the rot toilet it was in.
    Now a non-politician and proven good manager is taking over to do the long term job.

    Mercouris covered this shuffle in his latest video and it appears that the Russian MIC is going onto the command economy rails.
    No more fighting over profits at UralVagonZavod. I fully support this "commie" approach since what we see in NATO proves that
    privatization and bidding does not work at all. In fact, the private US MIC is acting like a shadow government pushing its profit
    interests through wars.

    People do not know what a free market it is. The car industry, the MIC and other "private" enterprise clusters are all oligopolies
    and are manipulated markets. A free market is when no producer can control the price through restriction of supply and collusion.
    A handful of megacorps have a clear incentive to collude and manipulate the market. Combine that with having only one customer,
    the government and you get total corruption.

    So the Russian "state planning" approach makes more sense since it leaves the government which is the source of all the money for
    the MIC in charge. No corrupt games and buying and selling of politicians for profits. The Russian taxpayer saves and Russia
    follows a stable mode of operation proven by the experience of the USSR. I would love to see exotic weapons systems make a
    come back. No grossly inflated prices means that they become affordable again.

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:30 am

    kvs did a based. Therefore he get a call from based department.

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:05 am

    I think they will do it far more efficient though than soviet times.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:07 am

    No one wants to know how hilarious it would be seeing reddit (pro-musk and pro-ukraine) lose their shit completely if Rogozin ran the country and even more hilarious if he has to deal with western leaders

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:19 am

    kvs wrote:Rogozin was not a technocrat but a fix it man and politician.   He did the job of rescuing Roscosmos from the rot toilet it was in.
    Now a non-politician and proven good manager is taking over to do the long term job.  

    Mercouris covered this shuffle in his latest video and it appears that the Russian MIC is going onto the command economy rails.
    No more fighting over profits at UralVagonZavod.   I fully support this "commie" approach since what we see in NATO proves that
    privatization and bidding does not work at all.   In fact, the private US MIC is acting like a shadow government pushing its profit
    interests through wars.  

    People do not know what a free market it is.   The car industry, the MIC and other "private" enterprise clusters are all oligopolies
    and are manipulated markets.    A free market is when no producer can control the price through restriction of supply and collusion.
    A handful of megacorps have a clear incentive to collude and manipulate the market.   Combine that with having only one customer,
    the government and you get total corruption.

    So the Russian "state planning" approach makes more sense since it leaves the government which is the source of all the money for
    the MIC in charge.   No corrupt games and buying and selling of politicians for profits.   The Russian taxpayer saves and Russia
    follows a stable mode of operation proven by the experience of the USSR.   I would love to see exotic weapons systems make a
    come back.   No grossly inflated prices means that they become affordable again.  

    Agreed, and I would add that while the Russian MIC has been far from ideal in this respect, it is positively glowing in comparison with corrupt MIC in the Collective West (which I assume was your core point).  Russian MIC has retained elements of the old Soviet command models, and that is why Russian weapons systems tend to be modestly priced, robust and effective, at least as compared to the hyper-expensive, fragile under-performing junk that passes as military security equipment in the West.  Western "experts", or at least those who are able to advance within the closed-shop establishment echo-chambers, have no friggin idea of the true situation.  These same idiots can't fathom why the Wests sanctions have failed and backfired, or how Russia, with a peacetime economy and using an expeditionary force of only 10% of her available forces, is able to prevail with minimal losses over a NATO-backed and fully mobilised Ukraine that has had 8 years to prepare and fortify behind prepared defenses.  

    I see a lot of positives from this move, not least of all that Western pundits will blow gaskets with increasing frequency over their rage that Russia is proving (yet again) that the West is in many ways an empty suit, and that Western ideas are not the only options available to nations that wish to be free.

    Edit: Andrei Martyanov daily blog discusses this:  source

    His take on Borisov, all very encouraging from my POV:

    Borisov is one of those military-technological, engineering and organization geniuses who are a very rare breed and seldom appear at the highest levels of political power. It is especially true for modern military-industrial complex of any superpower, because huge swaths of those complexes are in effect dual technologies producing industries. Borisov was instrumental in turning Russian military-industrial complex into R&D and manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Moreover, Borisov is a former cadre military, a general, with military academy behind his belt. Him, taking the command of Roskosmos may mean very many things and all of them good for Russia. Remember, it was on Borisov's watch that the Russian Armed Forces started to deploy some extremely advanced weapon system, many of which have no analogues in the West. Some--never will. In other words, Borisov is a specialist in the most advanced military and dual use technologies and bringing them to serial production.

    So in summary, it seems that the Kremlin believes that Rogozin has essentially completed his task of eradicating the mismanagement and corruption within Roskosmos, fixing its money-leaks, and getting its institutions back on track and working correctly, and now Borisov will be put in charge to ramp up the enterprise and get it producing to meet state needs. Happy days! thumbsup

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    Post  kvs Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:32 am

    The USSR was broken because it did try to micromanage the whole economy. This is just stupid since autonomous decision making
    responding to local conditions is vastly superior to centralized, report to mother bureaucracy. BTW, Kanada is experiencing some of
    this since 2006 in the federal government. No more local sys admins handling your PC problems, gotta call Ottawa and sit in a queue.
    Yes, Kanada had a superior approach before 2006.

    The MIC is never going to be like grocery stores and other consumer market goods and services supply. Russia is not making the mistake
    of putting this part of the economy under central planning and creating shortages and a black market. I think that space industry is
    also not going to be any rational market for a long time. In sci-fi we can have private companies engaging in consumer type economics
    in space, but in reality it is like the MIC. One dominant spender of money and a tiny number of suppliers of goods and services. So
    we see Space X for what it is.

    The problem with NATO countries is that they are too invested in the ideology of the "free market" (even if they are "leftists) and cannot
    admit the existence of distorted markets. You can see this inanity with EU's attempt to "deregulate" Gazprom's pipelines. They actually
    applied the AT&T model as if many gas suppliers would step in. We had similar BS with electrical energy production and supply in Kanada.
    All that did was increase costs for consumers since as now they had to pay investor dividends. Russia does not need to waste time trying
    to realize a fake reality with the MIC, Roscosmos and energy production (I mean nuclear power plants, gas and oil. Alt-energy production
    can be private.)

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:30 am

    thegopnik wrote:I will be in tears laughing getting myself drunk if Rogozin replaces Zelensky after the war lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1

    If this happened Rogozin would become my favorite person in the whole universe



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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:52 am

    Maybe Rogozin will become ambassador to the UN.

    Or Ambassador to Serbia... Twisted Evil

    Rogozin has given them a shakeup and gotten them back on track, I wonder which other aspect of Russian life needs a Rogozin shakeup?

    Right here

    I understand your happiness, but that image is in poor taste... it is 2022 and Black Americans are still not free...

    I will be in tears laughing getting myself drunk if Rogozin replaces Zelensky after the war

    Considering the leaders they have had in the past he would be an enormous step up, but Russia wont install an imported puppet regime, they will be led by a local who understands what has been happening the last 50 years.

    In other words, Borisov is a specialist in the most advanced military and dual use technologies and bringing them to serial production.

    That has been a criticism of the Soviets and Russia by the west that they come up with good ideas but fail to cash in on them by commercialising them and getting them into production (which is of course false but that is what they claimed... the reality is that lack of fair trade and open markets limited the market size for any Soviet or Russian design not made with a western partner to create a wider western market... those western partners normally isolated and marginalised their Soviet or Russian partners and stole their ideas and sold them out... look at the Yak-130...)

    If this happened Rogozin would become my favorite person in the whole universe

    Nah... Zelensky wont rule any neutral part of what is left of the Ukraine if any, so why would you want him to help build the orcs up to strength?

    Would rather see pieces break off and join Poland and Hungary and become their problem...

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:36 pm

    Martyanov´s take:

    About Borisov's New Post.


    A huge event: a removal of Rogozin from the position of the head of a mighty Roscosmos and appointment of Yuri Borisov to this post. This event created a major splash in Russian media with people immediately beginning to speculate that now Russian space program will begin to focus more on military applications (in Russian). But let's recall who Yuri Borisov is--yes, he is one of the major driving forces behind modernization and rearmament of Russian Armed Forces which underwent fast and dramatic update which turned them into arguably best fighting force of today. Borisov's role in this is huge, to put it mildly. 
    Borisov is one of those military-technological, engineering and organization geniuses who are a very rare breed and seldom appear at the highest levels of political power. It is especially true for modern military-industrial complex of any superpower, because huge swaths of those complexes are in effect dual technologies producing industries. Borisov was instrumental in turning Russian military-industrial complex into R&D and manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Moreover, Borisov is a former cadre military, a general, with military academy behind his belt. Him, taking the command of Roskosmos may mean very many things and all of them good for Russia. Remember, it was on Borisov's watch that the Russian Armed Forces started to deploy some extremely advanced weapon system, many of which have no analogues in the West. Some--never will. In other words, Borisov is a specialist in the most advanced military and dual use technologies and bringing them to serial production. 
    One of the results of Borisov's guidance are such as new carrier of the Poseidons, Belgorod submarine transferred to the Russian Navy several days ago, or newest Peresvet combat laser complexes, let alone RS-28 Sarmat or 3M22 Zircon--this all happened on Borisov's watch. Borisov leaves Russian Military-Industrial Complex in a top shape and Denis Manturov who comes into supervision of it knows this and he understands his position as "if ain't broke, don't fix it". Borisov is appointed to Roscosmos post to INTRODUCE into full production some revolutionary space technologies of which we know only about nuclear tug Zevs, but what else? Expect some big news relatively soon. What can it be? I hate speculations, you know that, but the talk and rumors about Russia's 6th generation fighter capable to transition from air to space flight and back are persistent. The full line of Angara, rockets and development and introduction of a super-heavy carriers will also be a priority. As will be a further development of counter-measures to US military space programs. Borisov's appointment fits extremely well into the program of Russia's full technological independence. With people like Borisov this independence is not only feasible but is already happening. 

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:46 pm

    Sounds like pulse detonation engine technology has advanced under covers in Russia. Any talk of transitional air-space vehicles
    requires the thermodynamic performance flexibility such engines provide. No Brayton cycle engine even deserves a mention.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:10 am

    kvs wrote:Sounds like pulse detonation engine technology has advanced under covers in Russia.   Any talk of transitional air-space vehicles
    requires the thermodynamic performance flexibility such engines provide.   No Brayton cycle engine even deserves a mention.

    Pulse detonation or rotating? Either way, I don't buy for even a second that Russia is behind the West (or Japs) in PDE/RDE theoretical physics or tech demonstrators. thumbsup

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:31 am

    thegopnik wrote:I will be in tears laughing getting myself drunk if Rogozin replaces Zelensky after the war lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1

    That sort of appointment will be right up Rogozin's alley and the Ukraine will finally get the leader it deserves

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:43 am

    Nice vid of Nauka, including some use of the ERA remote manipulator.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:23 pm

    Russia to quit International Space Station after 2024, 26.07.2022.

    By that time, Russia will start building its own space station, Roscosmos chief says.

    Russia is going to withdraw from the International Space Station (ISS) project with the West after 2024, the new head of the country’s space agency Roscosmos, Yury Borisov, said on Tuesday.

    Moscow is going to fulfill all its obligations to foreign partners as part of the ISS project, but “the decision to withdraw from this station after 2024 has been made,” Borisov told President Vladimir Putin during a meeting at the Kremlin.

    “I think, by that time, we’ll start putting together a Russian orbital station,” the space boss added.

    According to Borisov’s vision, Russia’s manned space flights should be carried out in line with a balanced and systematic scientific program, so that each mission would provide the country with new knowledge in the field of space.

    The previous head of Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin had predicted that the ISS, which NASA plans to operate until 2030, would “fall apart” by that time unless “huge amounts of money” are invested in its repair. But work to keep the station in orbit is no longer effective for Russia due to the current geopolitical environment, he pointed out.

    Borisov also acknowledged in April that the Russian modules of the station have exhausted their lifespans.

    The ISS was launched in 1998 as a joint effort by Russian, American, Japanese, Canadian and European space agencies. It’s divided into the Russian and American sections, with the latter being run by the US and other participants of the project.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/559652-space-station-quit-timeframe/

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:25 pm

    Kiko wrote:Russia to quit International Space Station after 2024, 26.07.2022.

    By that time, Russia will start building its own space station, Roscosmos chief says.

    Russia is going to withdraw from the International Space Station (ISS) project with the West after 2024, the new head of the country’s space agency Roscosmos, Yury Borisov, said on Tuesday.

    Moscow is going to fulfill all its obligations to foreign partners as part of the ISS project, but “the decision to withdraw from this station after 2024 has been made,” Borisov told President Vladimir Putin during a meeting at the Kremlin.

    “I think, by that time, we’ll start putting together a Russian orbital station,” the space boss added.

    According to Borisov’s vision, Russia’s manned space flights should be carried out in line with a balanced and systematic scientific program, so that each mission would provide the country with new knowledge in the field of space.

    The previous head of Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin had predicted that the ISS, which NASA plans to operate until 2030, would “fall apart” by that time unless “huge amounts of money” are invested in its repair. But work to keep the station in orbit is no longer effective for Russia due to the current geopolitical environment, he pointed out.

    Borisov also acknowledged in April that the Russian modules of the station have exhausted their lifespans.

    The ISS was launched in 1998 as a joint effort by Russian, American, Japanese, Canadian and European space agencies. It’s divided into the Russian and American sections, with the latter being run by the US and other participants of the project.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/559652-space-station-quit-timeframe/

    The ROSS is guaranteed now, very good, Borisov came through and as he did with Missiles

    He will do for space industry, it is necessary to increase cooperation with China

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    Post  Hole Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:54 pm

    In addition to ROSS there should be a BRICS space station.

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:41 pm

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    Post  jon_deluxe Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:39 am

    owais.usmani wrote:

    I guess this means they won't be reusing any of the modules from the Russian segment of the ISS.

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    Post  kvs Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:42 pm

    There is almost no news about the transition of rockets from kerosene to "naphtil" in Russia. This fuel reduces
    substantially carbon deposits on the surface of rocket engine components. This goes together with more
    efficient combustion and thus higher specific impulse in the same engine. Only Russia manufactures this
    fuel. It is not just some sort of cleaner kerosene variant but its chemical formula is secret.

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:48 am

    With the upgraded shielding will the space tug be able to transfer parts of the station to other planetary orbits?

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:14 am

    TMA1 wrote:With the upgraded shielding will the space tug be able to transfer parts of the station to other planetary orbits?

    If you are referring to the Zeus NEP vehicle currently under development, I expect it will be able to transport manned station modules to Martian (or Venusian) orbits. It would be an ideal piece of kit for the assembly of large orbital complexes in either deep space or around planetary bodies. thumbsup

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:04 pm

    I guess this means they won't be reusing any of the modules from the Russian segment of the ISS.

    They evaluated most of the modules to be in need of too much repair and upgrade... better to make new parts... even more so when they can apply improvements and upgrades to the design now they have a few decades experience with their use.

    Just the improvements in Solar panel technology alone over this time might improve things significantly, but many of the Russian parts were the core parts used to put the station together... in many ways the ISS was MIR 2.

    With the upgraded shielding will the space tug be able to transfer parts of the station to other planetary orbits?

    It has excellent potential for a space station to orbit the moon... which would massively improve communications and support to bases on the moon.

    There is no atmosphere on the moon so some sort of space tether could actually be feasible too...

    Unfortunately there are no radiation belts around the moon so electrical power would not be generated through such a cable in the same way a cable from a satellite in earths orbit could generate electricity... but it would be an interesting and potentially efficient way of landing things on the surface or bringing things up from the surface to orbit...
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    Post  TMA1 Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:28 am

    Agreed. The Mars fetish is too much. The moon is the perfect jumping off point. First a moon station. Then transfer of stations on the surface. With the nuclear tug you finally have the ability to keep adding modules. Eventually with a big enough moon base you can start digging underground and with enough critical infrastructure it can become self sustaining. This will be when mankind is finally an interplanetary being. The space tug is the major step. From there new orbital and moon surface station nodes can be tugged along as well as a couple landing craft and vehicles.

    This is how it starts. Mars only comes after this in my opinion. With a moon station and basic base, then we can have space tugs shuttling humans to other orbits. Just imagine a dozen or so tugs shuttling in their respective orbits. Thry get these tugs to an extremely fast speed. Then refueled vehicles from earth or moon space stations and even lunar ground stations can make a timed dash to catch up with the tug to meet with it and catch rides to Ceres
    Mining the asteroid belt and eventually settling the jovian moons.

    Guys this is all perfectly doable. I wish a great leader could come and make peace with powers in a multipolar world and make some pact with the great powers where each sets aside twenty percent of their military budget in order to compete in space together in friendly rivalry.

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