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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm

    Scorpius wrote:
    I may be wrong, but the onboard control system and the warhead fit within the limits of the declared mass. It turns out that the Ministry of Defense has just announced that in a couple of years it will be able to shoot down satellites on GSO?

    or satellites' killers?
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:21 pm

    I am more excited about the costs of the Irkut and even smaller methane rocket than Amur.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 pm

    For some context, 500 kg range to LEO is quite useful.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCISAT-1

    A Fourier transform spectrometer atmospheric composition measuring satellite with a mass of 260 kg.

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:29 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Irkut_10

    source

    Good to see more winged reusable boosters instead of the bloody VTOL boosters from 50s sci-fi.

    Earth has something called an atmosphere, it can be used to slow your decent during a landing without the need for you to expend any fuel. You may as well use it.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:10 pm

    VTOL is moronic.   The payload is reduced to carry fuel up and then down for vertical landing.   Gliding empty boosters down to the surface
    like the Space Shuttle makes vastly more sense.    Imagine if they made the Shuttle VTOL.   It would never have been put into service.

    Another waste of resources from VTOL is extended use of the rocket motors.   If you are going to save money by reusing them, then
    why cut down their useful life by 50%?

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:32 am

    Well another interesting aspect... imagine a first stage that is not a rocket.... but an air breathing scramjet... instead of the first stage full of fuel and oxygen, you could make it quarter the weight and size and scoop up air as it climbs... rockets that go into orbit don't just go straight up into space... they climb initially vertically and then roll over on their side and accelerate to orbital speeds and climb out of the atmosphere... the portion when the main rocket... which is also the biggest and heaviest because it has to carry everything up off the ground from a standing start... an air dropped rocket with a scramjet first stage that is started at say 10km altitude and mach 0.7 from some sort of transport type could launch horizontally and those wings could support it as it accelerates as well as recover that section after separation... it might climb to 40km altitude and be moving a mach 15 or more... you could make it very big and very powerful... and reuse it...
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well another interesting aspect... imagine a first stage that is not a rocket.... but an air breathing scramjet... instead of the first stage full of fuel and oxygen, you could make it quarter the weight and size and scoop up air as it climbs... rockets that go into orbit don't just go straight up into space... they climb initially vertically and then roll over on their side and accelerate to orbital speeds and climb out of the atmosphere... the portion when the main rocket... which is also the biggest and heaviest because it has to carry everything up off the ground from a standing start... an air dropped rocket with a scramjet first stage that is started at say 10km altitude and mach 0.7 from some sort of transport type could launch horizontally and those wings could support it as it accelerates as well as recover that section after separation... it might climb to 40km altitude and be moving a mach 15 or more... you could make it very big and very powerful... and reuse it...

    Scramjets always need a 1st stage therefore they are only used as 2nd stage engines. Perhaps detonation engines because they currently have been tested for smaller sizes. Sadly we dont know the size of Irkut but its weight but the Amur is 360 tons while the re-usable Irkut is 25 tons.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well another interesting aspect... imagine a first stage that is not a rocket.... but an air breathing scramjet... instead of the first stage full of fuel and oxygen, you could make it quarter the weight and size and scoop up air as it climbs... rockets that go into orbit don't just go straight up into space... they climb initially vertically and then roll over on their side and accelerate to orbital speeds and climb out of the atmosphere... the portion when the main rocket... which is also the biggest and heaviest because it has to carry everything up off the ground from a standing start... an air dropped rocket with a scramjet first stage that is started at say 10km altitude and mach 0.7 from some sort of transport type could launch horizontally and those wings could support it as it accelerates as well as recover that section after separation... it might climb to 40km altitude and be moving a mach 15 or more... you could make it very big and very powerful... and reuse it...

    The idea is a good one, but as posted by gopnik not currently viable for the engines suggested.

    But indeed, why not use the oxygen in the atmosphere to power lift off in lower layers of the atmosphere. So we reduce the
    first stage to just the base fuel without carrying the oxidant. But the reason for carrying the oxidant is that it can be supplied
    to the rocket motors in quantities vastly larger than can be drawn locally from the air.

    It then makes more sense to have the first stage be winged stage that lifts off from a runway and carries the upper stages
    mounted on top (e.g. Mriya-Buran). This achieves the total reusability of the first stage. But it limits the size of the upper
    stages. So the concept can be applied to small payloads and we already have something like this with air launched LEO insertion
    rockets.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:30 am

    A scramjet engine typically has a large central cavity where airflow and fuel is burned that on weapons like the rocket ramjet powered Kh-31 and SA-6 missiles use a solid rocket motor that falls away when consumed after accelerating the missile to a suitable speed where the ramjet can be started.

    Having multiple first stages in a cluster all with solid rocket cores that start it moving, or perhaps a mix of solid rocket boosters and a core in the central man stage, where the outer rockets fall away after getting the entire rocket upwards and moving... would be options too.

    Many rockets use multiple small boosters around its bottom first stage to maximise thrust for lift off to get the whole thing moving... there is no reason why they could not all be solid rocket scramjets with an initial high thrust solid rocket boost followed by scramjet acceleration using its weight efficiency to reduce overall weight which makes the requirement for super powerful rockets less of an issue.

    Another issue of course is that more acceleration might take place in the thicker portions of the atmosphere which would require stronger heavier and more heat resistant upper stages.

    However one of the reason for extreme high oxygen concentrations is to maximise thrust, but with air breathing engines it is not just oxygen that goes into the process... 70% of the "air" is inert nitrogen that is heated and used for thrust too, so in terms of volume you are getting more volume throughput for your engine and a scramjet motor can burn at supersonic airflows which was the primary advantage of rocket motors over jet motors in the past, but with scramjets that advantage is not so significant...
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:44 am

    My favoured concept for an ideal reuseable satellite launcher would be to use fly-back boosters for both the central core and the straps-ons, using methane/LOX propellents, preferably with detonation engines to maximise energy efficiency. The strap-ons would peel off at a relatively low altitude once the stack is clear of the bulk of the atmosphere, and proceed to fly back to an airstrip next to the launch facility.  The core would continue to burn until stage seperation, and may need to use a set of air-breathing (ramjet) engines to burn residual fuel and provide sufficient cross-range capability to reach an airstrip, depending on the launch location and the flight trajectory.

    The 2nd stage would be augmented with a winged or lifting-body structure, equipped with thermal re-entry protection, and designed to enter a fractional orbit before the 3rd stage is ignited (comprising a small expendable stage and the payload or manned vehicle).  The 2nd stage would de-orbit after < 1 rotation and proceed to re-enter and land at an airfield as per Buran (or its inferior Murkan copy Twisted Evil). Not a heavy flyback booster like Spiral, but a half-way house design.

    It wouldn't fit every mission profile of course, but for routine delivery of piloted vehicles and medium satellites to LEO it would be ideal.   thumbsup

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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:25 am

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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:38 am

    What appears to be an aerospike engine demonstrator is shown at what I think is the the Energomash facility in Perm (?)



    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Aerosp11

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Aerosp12

    Comments seem to indicate that that this demo was using alcohol fuel, but any production versions would use hydrogen?

    Be warned that the comments section is plagued by fuckwitz who have no idea...  they keep yabbering that this is somehow "old" technology already developed by murkans...  except their past efforts were less than successful.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:09 am

    Cosmonaut Novitsky becomes first resident of ISS module Nauka

    https://tass.com/science/1348697
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:52 am

    Proposed mission profile for the 1st Zeus mission circa-2030. This has probably been posted previously but this the best version I've found.

    FWIW there is some scuttlebutt that the mission might flyby Mars instead of Venus. I hope not, as I find Venus to more interesting - Mars has been done a lot, while Venus has been comparatively ignored.

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Zeus_m10

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    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:30 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Proposed mission profile for the 1st Zeus mission circa-2030. This has probably been posted previously but this the best version I've found.

    FWIW there is some scuttlebutt that the mission might flyby Mars instead of Venus.  I hope not, as I find Venus to more interesting - Mars has been done a lot, while Venus has been comparatively ignored.

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Zeus_m10

    Flying near Mars on the way to Jupiter is pointless. Only Venus. Since the attraction of the Sun and Venus is used for additional speed gain with the help of a gravitational maneuver. It's as if you had to drop a brick from the fifth floor to the third - and you would first throw this brick to the eighth floor.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:39 pm

    36 OneWeb satellites launched from Vostochny were launched into orbit

    MOSCOW, October 14. / TASS /. All 36 British communications satellites OneWeb, launched from the Vostochny cosmodrome on Thursday, have been launched into orbit, Roscosmos said in a statement.

    "All 36 OneWeb communication satellites have successfully separated from the Russian upper stage Fregat and launched into target orbits," Roscosmos said in a Twitter post .

    source



    17 successful launches this year, on track for 23 launches for the year thumbsup

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    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Yesterday at 6:53 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:36 OneWeb satellites launched from Vostochny were launched into orbit]

    17 successful launches this year, on track for 23 launches for the year thumbsup

    61 consecutive successful space launches for Russia since the accident in 2018. 67 consecutive successful space launch, if you include launches from the Kourou Cosmodrome.



    ...Remind me, which country in the world besides Russia has such reliability indicators?

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    Post  owais.usmani Yesterday at 10:02 am

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Yesterday at 11:18 am

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Fbsl4h10
    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Fbsl7s10
    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Fbsl8u10
    Marker looking for western spies in Vostochny.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Yesterday at 3:18 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Proposed mission profile for the 1st Zeus mission circa-2030. This has probably been posted previously but this the best version I've found.

    FWIW there is some scuttlebutt that the mission might flyby Mars instead of Venus.  I hope not, as I find Venus to more interesting - Mars has been done a lot, while Venus has been comparatively ignored.

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 20 Zeus_m10

    you have a bigger image or origin of it, i tried to translate it and I am sort of having difficulty if those are 3 of Jupiter's moons on the far right(only recognize callisto I believe for butchered translation of kalpisto)?
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    Post  kvs Yesterday at 4:40 pm

    The other two moons are labelled as Io and Europa.

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    Post  Hole Yesterday at 5:28 pm

    Nuland: I knew the evil Russians wanted to conquer Europe! Laughing

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