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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:36 pm

    The 14 RD-171MV rocket looks like a rehash of the UR-900

    http://www.astronautix.com/u/ur-900.html

    Instead of a larger inner core, a nested 1-4-8 cluster of identical single RD-171MV modules is used. That leaves one RD-171MV
    on the second stage. This removes the potential issue of wasted fuel load spent on the second stage.

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 8 Ur900

    Not quite the same since it has a larger inner core. With computerized control and tighter build tolerances, it is likely possible
    to have this cluster not shake itself to pieces on liftoff. But I think it is rather ugly.

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    Post  Kiko Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:47 am

    Russia allocates nearly $ 50 million to create a Hubble-like telescope, 16.07.2021.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik)-Russia allocated 3,680 million rubles, or almost 50 million dollars, to develop the Spektr-UF space telescope that is analogous to Hubble, according to documents published on the public tenders website.

    According to the materials, on July 8 the Russian space corporation Roscosmos and its subsidiary NGO Lavochkin signed a contract to "develop effective design documentation for the components of the space complex, including spacecraft components, manufacture and testing of its components and scientific equipment in the years 2021-2025".

    Construction must be completed by 2025.

    The World Space Observatory - Ultraviolet, also known as Spektr-UF, is a telescope dedicated to observing the Universe in the ultraviolet range. Its capabilities resemble those of the American Hubble telescope.

    Spektr-UF is expected to be launched into space on the Angara-A5M rocket from the Vostochny cosmodrome in eastern Russia in October 2025.

    Yandex Translate

    https://mundo.sputniknews.com/20210716/rusia-asigna-casi-50-millones-de-dolares-para-crear-un-telescopio-similar-a-hubble-1114153916.html

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    Post  thegopnik Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:14 am

    https://qr.ae/pGMQ5w Done another more but highly detailed cost comparison rocket launch estimates between Roscosmos and Space X and I am sure I will be accused here of giving Musk more credit than I gave him for. It explains the marketing of falcon 9 that if I used the same method the Amur would cost 33,333 dollars. Along with where is he pulling the 2 million dollar launches out of his ass when his own claimed super cheap expandable Raptor engines all together with Starship don't even equal 2 million, etc, etc.
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    Post  Kiko Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:51 am

    The rocket with the Nauka module for the ISS was installed on the launch pad, 17.07.2021.

    The Proton-M rocket with the Russian scientific module Nauka for the ISS was installed on the launch pad.

    MOSCOW, July 17 - RIA Novosti. The Proton-M launch vehicle with the Nauka multifunctional laboratory module was removed and installed at the launch complex of the Baikonur cosmodrome , Roskosmos reported.

    "After supplying the service unit, our specialists will start work according to the schedule of the first launch day," added the state corporation.

    The launch itself is scheduled for July 21 at 17:58 Moscow time. This will be the first module that Russia will send to the ISS since 2010, when the Rassvet small research module docked to the station, and the first heavy domestic module since 2000, when the Zvezda service module was launched.

    The Russian segment of the ISS now includes the Zarya functional cargo block, the Zvezda service module, the Pirs docking compartment, and the Poisk and Rassvet small research modules.

    Docking of "Science" with the International Space Station is scheduled for July 29 at 16:26. The operation is planned in automatic mode, but it can be carried out remotely manually by Russian cosmonauts from the ISS.

    Before the arrival of the laboratory unit on July 23 at 16:17 Moscow time, the Pirs module will be undocked with the help of the Progress MS-16 cargo vehicle and on the same day the Pirs module will be flooded in the Pacific Ocean. Now it occupies the docking station required for Nauka.

    His example is "science".

    Nauka is an almost complete copy of the first module of the ISS Zarya. It began to be built in 1995 as a ground backup for this module. In 2004, they decided to expand the Russian segment, and to save money, the "backup" was converted into a full-fledged flight module. Its launch was scheduled for 2007, but the production was not completed on time and for many years the start was postponed.

    In 2013, when Nauka was practically prepared for shipment to the cosmodrome, foreign particles were found while checking the fuel system. This threatened with big problems, since after launching into orbit, the module had to reach the ISS on its own engines. In the event of a blockage, they could stall, and an uncontrollable 20-ton object would remain in near-earth orbit. However, if the unit had reached the station on its own, foreign particles could have disabled the station's propulsion system, since Nauka had to be connected to the fuel system of the Russian segment.

    The module was returned to the manufacturer for revision. As part of the revision, its pipelines were replaced with new ones, the tanks were cleaned to the maximum, and an external platform was added for placing the scientific equipment outside. After modernization "Science" received a new name - MLM-U, where "U" is an improved one. In 2020, the segment was sent to Baikonur, where it passed all pre-launch tests.

    https://ria.ru/20210717/raketa-1741642768.html

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:01 am

    the tanks were cleaned to the maximum

    Actually the tanks were replaced as cleaning efforts were deemed inadequate.  The tanks were an expandable bellows type and the original manufacturer had long been disbanded.  Unable to clean & repair and certify them for flight, it was decided to replace them entirely (leading to yet more delay).

    Its been a long and winding path to get this far.  Lets wish for a successful launch and flight to ISS and to finally put this shitty, sad episode well into the rear-view mirror...
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:32 am

    I don't care how long it takes, taking short cuts like just cleaning tanks instead of replacing them is the sort of thing that leads to more problems.

    Do it right... even if it takes longer and some precious deadline is missed.

    I am sure the first US space shuttle crew killed would think their lives were worth more than a frozen o ring worth a few cents...

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    Post  kvs Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:I don't care how long it takes, taking short cuts like just cleaning tanks instead of replacing them is the sort of thing that leads to more problems.

    Do it right... even if it takes longer and some precious deadline is missed.

    I am sure the first US space shuttle crew killed would think their lives were worth more than a frozen o ring worth a few cents...

    Indeed, but that was a major management fail as well. Instead of knowing the properties of this vital seal, they just assumed that
    temperature does not matter and did the usual management spasm of running to beat a deadline. There is also political pressure
    to meet those deadlines. As we see on this forum, all sorts of panties get in a bunch when some launch schedule slips.

    The O-ring story is something else. The designers should have provided an operational temperature range. You see such
    specifications for electronics for both temperature and humidity.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:08 am

    The boundaries and restrictions on launch conditions are not plucked from the sky... the people in charge chose to ignore the rules and 7 people died because of it...

    Pressure gets Polish government officials killed too... it is not unique, but what is important is the person making the final call ignoring the political pressure and doing the right thing.

    In the case of the Challenger it was an o ring that supposedly failed because it was too cold, but honestly if it had not failed we don't know what other parts might have then failed instead as the spacecraft flew higher and faster.... the temperature restrictions would probably apply to hundreds of different rubber components... any of which could have and possibly did fail.

    Point is that they ignored the launch parameters.... most likely because of pride and pressure... which is ironic because the cost in terms of lives alone makes a missed launch window a trivial thing, but add the loss of pride, and the cost...
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    Post  kvs Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:28 am

    The "rubber" stiffens and shrinks under freezing conditions. Even a tiny air leak will result in the flame front burrowing in that direction.
    The engineers had better recognized this in their design as it is hardly some obscure issue. That is why they used these gaskets in the
    first place. It did not require an inquiry after deaths to determine operational parameters for these gaskets. That was the job of
    the engineers. I am still not clear as to the chain of events. Did they really never produce any guidelines on the operational atmospheric
    temperature range or were they lost in the bureaucracy. Managers are hardly going to look for such missing details and would probably
    assume that Florida always is warm. None of these people have any education in atmospheric physics and even realize that the temperature
    drops quickly with height, especially at night when the surface boundary layer becomes very shallow or non-existent. So the tower
    that is the Shuttle sitting on its mobile launch pad will freeze late into the night through thermal radiation even in Cape Canaveral under
    the right weather conditions.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:37 am

    kvs wrote:The "rubber" stiffens and shrinks under freezing conditions.  Even a tiny air leak will result in the flame front burrowing in that direction.
    The engineers had better recognized this in their design as it is hardly some obscure issue.   That is why they used these gaskets in the
    first place.   It did not require an inquiry after deaths to determine operational parameters for these gaskets.   That was the job of
    the engineers.   I am still not clear as to the chain of events.   Did they really never produce any guidelines on the operational atmospheric
    temperature range or were they lost in the bureaucracy.   Managers are hardly going to look for such missing details and would probably
    assume that Florida always is warm.   None of these people have any education in atmospheric physics and even realize that the temperature
    drops quickly with height, especially at night when the surface boundary layer becomes very shallow or non-existent.    So the tower
    that is the Shuttle sitting on its mobile launch pad will freeze late into the night through thermal radiation even in Cape Canaveral under
    the right weather conditions.    


    IIRC, the Morton Thiokol engineers who had the specialist knowledge advised that it was unsafe to fly, but their engineering managers chose to override their input due to pressure from their superiors (ie NASA flight managers).

    So many disasters are caused when the people with authority chose to ignore the advice from the people with knowledge.

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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:12 pm


    Prototype of new space suit will be presented on MAKS-2021

    https://ria.ru/20210719/skafandr-1741782690.html



    Also, scale model of Zeus from MAKS-2021:
    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 8 E6rXWR5XMAUhl8U?format=jpg&name=900x900

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:33 am

    Another piccie coutesy of Mr Zak:

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 8 Maks2021_tem_v_1

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    Post  kvs Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:12 am

    Nobody seems to notice, but this is the future of space vehicles and it is happening. I guess since the way is not being paved by
    the exceptional ones, then nobody cares. Musk's starship masturbation is way more interesting. Phobia of nuclear power is another
    element.



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    Post  thegopnik Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:28 am

    kvs wrote:Nobody seems to notice, but this is the future of space vehicles and it is happening.   I guess since the way is not being paved by
    the exceptional ones, then nobody cares.   Musk's starship masturbation is way more interesting.   Phobia of nuclear power is another
    element.




    You know I decided to give Musk another chance like maybe I have missed something the breakthroughs his company made, some have told me Russia does not have anything Starship related in technology.

    sources have shown that he was lucky to get to 6 re-uses, hope to strive to 10, impossible for 100 and Roscomos is going for 300 re-uses on the amur 1st stage. It costs according to them 15 million dollars for marginal costs of Falcon 9 where 60% is to 1st stage and 20% is to upper stages but 50 million dollars fully for the rocket. 1st stage engine is 30 million dollars and 2nd stage engine is 10 million dollars but the re-usability for falcon 9 was 6 times that means 40+10+10+10+10+10 equaling 90 million divided by those 6 launches you get 15 million dollars. Amur has a profit margin of 22 million dollars. Than just for estimates the Amur would cost 10 million dollars remove the 20% with 60% for 1st stage and 20% for 2nd stage that means the Amur is 8 million dollars meaning they can re-use the engine 300 times more. Amur rocket is all 1st stage using same methane engines which will cost us 10 million dollars on the 1st launch(remember Amur rocket is all 1st stage)but add 299 zeros and divide it by 300 which means the Amur costs 33333.33 dollars per launch by using the Musk marketing of Falcon 9 and technically speaking I would be correct.

    When he was asked for re-usable upper stages he laughed suggesting an air balloon when asked that question according to source, while russians are working on parachutes for upper stage return rocket engines including some with a 3000 second burn time.

    Now he suggests it would cost 2 million dollars to use Starship for payloads to LEO and that it is more special than falcon 9 or heavy because the engines use methane instead of kerosene. Currently raptor engines cost 1 million and he hopes to get it to 250,000 dollars but the thing is the raptor engines unlike the merlin engines are expandable. The amount of raptor engines used with 1 million each would cost 32 million and with 250k each it would be 8 million dollars just to replace so them. in order to get to 2 million his engines are to cost less than 62,500 because methane fuel still costs money even though not alot.

    Imagine getting your ass kicked more worse than what happened to you in South Africa in chemical rocket technology, that you suggest your starship is far better if they ever made any starship equivalent but they chose nuclear reactors/ MPD thrusters for long range trips. Even if Roscosmos did in fact chose to work on a starship equivalent they would have made far more progress than you would have reaching mars, but the reason they are sticking with nuclear reactors is probably to have a better chance getting there quicker.

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:04 am

    kvs wrote:Nobody seems to notice, but this is the future of space vehicles and it is happening...

    It will be happening when first section is on the launchpad

    Let's not get ahead of ourselves lest we forget Rus-M and Klipper

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    Post  kvs Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:09 am

    Musk must BS 24/7 about low launch costs since that is what the magic of private space contractors is supposed deliver.
    As if market "competition" (Space X is not in any competitive market) can reduce launch costs arbitrarily. This is the
    market religion. Just as "economists" spout BS such as "if we run out of copper we will make more" (with alchemy I
    suppose), we have the zero physics background lemmings all bleating that magic market rules trump reality. Musk has
    been shown to have lied about his real launch costs so all his yammering about 2 million or less is BS for idiots.

    He is, after all, doing the exact same BSing with hyperloop and the ludicrous Vegas loop.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:33 am

    I don't believe that Starship is intended to be an orbital vehicle, but a sub-orbital rapid reaction transport system for US military special forces.

    Seriously, the idea that this large monstrosity is going to get into orbit and return safely is just nonsense. I simply cannot imagine how this wheat silo is going to survive an atmospheric re-entry with the comensurate level of friction heating. Shuttle was able to do so because of its highly engineering shaping and thermal protection systems, and yet it failed once with catastrophic (fatal) results. Only a fool would think that Musk can clad his silo in pissy little hexagonal tiles and survive re-entry. They will serve for a sub-orbital flight (more evidence that this is the intended service) but not a full orbital re-entry.

    I think the Pentragram have rocks in their head if they will seriously entertain Musks nonsensical silo design and its absurd "tail-flip-make-it-at-all-costs-or-DIE" landing maneourve. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:34 am

    kvs wrote:Musk must BS 24/7 about...

    Also can we go 3 posts without mentioning that clown?

    I made a tread for that specifically to avoid this crap

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:01 am

    kvs wrote:Nobody seems to notice, but this is the future of space vehicles and it is happening.   I guess since the way is not being paved by
    the exceptional ones, then nobody cares.   Musk's starship masturbation is way more interesting.   Phobia of nuclear power is another
    element.

    This thing can be presented in an intro of any space sci-fi movie.
    The future is now, lads.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:06 pm

    Roscosmos Says US Greenlit Import of Russia’s New Space Rocket Engines, 20.07.2021.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) - The United States has approved the purchase of a new batch of the Russian-made RD-181M space rocket engines, a spokesman for the Russian space agency Roscosmos, Vladimir Ustimenko, said on Tuesday.

    "The US government has approved the contract between NPO Energomash [Roscosmos subsidiary] and US Orbital Sciences LLC company. This means that there will be new supplies of engines and new launches of American rockets with Russian ‘hearts’," Ustimenko said on Telegram.

    The deal gives hope for the possible normalisation of relations between the countries, where business and efficiency will play a more important role than momentary decisions, which are not related to cosmonautics, Ustimenko added.

    The RD-181M engine is an export variant of the RD-191M used in Russian carrier rockets. The RD-181M is used in the first stages of the American Antares expendable launch systems aimed at transporting Cygnus cargo spaceships to the International Space Station.

    https://sputniknews.com/world/202107201083422635-roscosmos-says-us-greenlit-import-of-russias-new-space-rocket-engines/

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    Post  kvs Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:13 pm

    The RD-181 is a two nozzle engine whereas the RD-191 is a single nozzle engine. Sputnik news writers need to try harder.

    Also, why including the BS about normalization of relations. The only reason the yanquis are greenlighting this purchase is because
    without these engines Orbital Sciences has to shut down.

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:18 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Prototype of new space suit will be presented on MAKS-2021

    https://ria.ru/20210719/skafandr-1741782690.html
    .....

    And here it is:
    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 - Page 8 E6vE4PXWQAINc2k?format=jpg&



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    Post  flamming_python Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:07 pm

    Looks very slim compared to the existing model

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:59 am

    I wonder if they incorporated any exoskeleton stuff into its design at all?

    These suits are vastly better than the old US suits which of course are rigid and connect together like Lego.

    The previous Soviet suit essentially had a backpack that opened like a door for the cosmonaut to step in to the suit and close the backpack and seal them in.

    The major joints would all then be tested one by one to make sure the seals are good and working properly and it would take about three quarters of an hour to be ready to go outside the spacecraft in open space.

    The old US suits had to be assembled onto the astronaut piece by piece checking seals and joins as you went... took about 7 hours to get the suit on and tested before you could start your space walk... newer US suits copy the Soviet suits.
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:34 am

    GarryB wrote:I wonder if they incorporated any exoskeleton stuff into its design at all?

    These suits are vastly better than the old US suits which of course are rigid and connect together like Lego.

    The previous Soviet suit essentially had a backpack that opened like a door for the cosmonaut to step in to the suit and close the backpack and seal them in.

    The major joints would all then be tested one by one to make sure the seals are good and working properly and it would take about three quarters of an hour to be ready to go outside the spacecraft in open space.

    The old US suits had to be assembled onto the astronaut piece by piece checking seals and joins as you went... took about 7 hours to get the suit on and tested before you could start your space walk... newer US suits copy the Soviet suits.

    That's funny because apparently the new suit works according to the principle of a rigid ring connection, according to the article.

    Although only between the lower half and upper half of the suit. So presumably you step into the lower half, and then just attach the top half to the ring.

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