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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4

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    Daniel_Admassu

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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 Empty Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4

    Post  Daniel_Admassu Sun May 16, 2021 6:17 am

    Russia doesn't necessarily need to go to Mars. It is just the logical next step in space exploration after the moon, in order to build up its capabilities. No one said there was 'something' we need to look for on Mars. But while they are at it, it would be good to do some science as well. How is this not a rational argument? Even in cold war times, where there obviously was a lot of flag waving, this was a valid rationale.

    Really, this whole defense of Russia in its lag in space exploration programs is terribly beginning to look like the 'grapes are sour anyway' thing. It is lagging for now and that is it. It does not mean that it will continue this way and we may yet see its best days ahead. Most of us hope so.

    Imagine Phobos Grunt was a success and Russia actually returned soil samples from that moon. What would have the conversation in this forum looked like? Would we still say such missions were a waste of money and be advising Russia to stop, who by the time would be preparing say for a Jupiter moon landing mission? Something tells me not.

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    thegopnik
    thegopnik

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    Post  thegopnik Sun May 16, 2021 7:03 am

    Thing is I mostly want MPD thrusters/nuclear reactor spacecraft missions. Maybe for them it is a waste of time trying to use chemical rockets to land rovers when to them that is going to be obsolete compared to ion engines which probably pull the brakes to entering Mars atmosphere better than chemical rockets, I dont know. Its good they created a fly-wing rocket design bureau as well to become profitable. There is no doubt Roscosmos is going the right direction on two things atleast.  Only rover projects they took part in is was being funded by other space organization. Saying a Mars mission is pointless is like saying sending Gagarin is pointless. By the way I think it will be profitable for them to get alot of contracts from other countries regarding nuclear space tugs. Nuklon is definitely going to be heavy compared to rovers so it is a perfect test subject to experiment on landing heavy things on distant planets. Just hope the time schedule goes OK with this insanely difficult project.

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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 Sun May 16, 2021 11:50 am

    thegopnik wrote:Thing is I mostly want MPD thrusters/nuclear reactor spacecraft missions. Maybe for them it is a waste of time trying to use chemical rockets to land rovers when to them that is going to be obsolete compared to ion engines which probably pull the brakes to entering Mars atmosphere better than chemical rockets, I dont know. Its good they created a fly-wing rocket design bureau as well to become profitable. There is no doubt Roscosmos is going the right direction on two things atleast.  Only rover projects they took part in is was being funded by other space organization. Saying a Mars mission is pointless is like saying sending Gagarin is pointless. By the way I think it will be profitable for them to get alot of contracts from other countries regarding nuclear space tugs. Nuklon is definitely going to be heavy compared to rovers so it is a perfect test subject to experiment on landing heavy things on distant planets. Just hope the time schedule goes OK with this insanely difficult project.

    Problem is that putin the space hater , defunded the russia space program and cut it in half ,to finance his meaningless sports events in russia.  even rogozing Russia director of russia space program complained about this , he told. "they want us to do as good and US and china in space with 1/20 of their funding. "  And later medvedev reprimanded him for complaining about the mediocre funding of russia space program .  US invest 25 billion dollars a year in space.  china invest even more , but how much is putin investing? just $2 billions a year. Suspect   but wasted 100billions in bullshit sport events.

    the thing is that just going to space ,just to not look outdated is not worth of it ,  space is only important , if you have plans to lead and compete. if you have serious ambitions . the message of china was clear ...

    china have shown to the world , that they can do whatever thing Americans can do space ,including
    mars , that americans are not as ahead in space as they will like to make the world believe. That china have comparable capabilities , that the world have an alternative , and don't need to follow arrogant nations ,who wants to rule all nations in the word.

    the entire west ,vast majority of the west is praising china for amazing achievement.

    here is from BBC channel in youtube.. an example of the comments of people cheering china for amazing success.



    Lots of compliments to China for such amazing success here ....." :

    Charlene Weah Weah
    Charlene Weah Weah
    16 hours ago
    Great job 👌👌👌.

    46

    Eddy Bless
    Eddy Bless
    12 hours ago
    Congratulations🤝

    53

    Mellia Boom Bot
    Mellia Boom Bot
    12 hours ago
    Well done from FRance! Smile

    101

    Machiavelli
    Machiavelli
    8 hours ago
    Congratulations from Neptune... So when you gonna head over our way then.

    29

    Etheral101
    Etheral101
    18 hours ago
    Dont care which nation does it, Im always glad when the Cosmos is explored.

    556

    Hosz
    Hosz
    9 hours ago
    Wonderful achievement!

    15

    KK Nwosu
    KK Nwosu
    9 hours ago
    Congrats on the noble feat

    33

    Ethan Sharp
    Ethan Sharp
    16 hours ago
    Interesting n good news for once

    13

    Praveen Kumaar
    Praveen Kumaar
    5 hours ago (edited)
    Congrats 🎊👏 from India .... 2china👍

    7

    Pechorin
    Pechorin
    18 hours ago
    Fun Fact: "Zhu Rong" is the God of Fire in Ancient Chinese mythology, an equivalent of  Prometheus.

    Also, always good to hear that human is making some progress in space. Really Hope I can get a chance to visit the first human moon colony in my life.

    252

    morin shyamika
    morin shyamika
    16 hours ago
    Congratulations from srilanka 🇱🇰🇱🇰🇱🇰

    90

    DAMN MUSIC
    DAMN MUSIC
    6 hours ago
    congrats from Hong kong

    6

    仪光
    仪光
    14 hours ago
    同时看到了CGTN和BBC的新闻,我毫不犹豫点进了BBC娱乐频道😏

    40

    Read my ABOUT section PLEASE
    Read my ABOUT section PLEASE
    16 hours ago (edited)
    Zhurong = god of fire 🔥

    13

    codeorbs
    codeorbs
    18 hours ago
    That announcer isn't seated, she's holding a squatting position just look at the strain in her face.. wow!! What a strong independent woman, she doesn't even need help from a chair

    216

    John Gore
    John Gore
    4 hours ago
    Good job. Doesn't matter what country does it, happy to hear.

    3

    Nyuthe Vlog
    Nyuthe Vlog
    15 hours ago
    Congratulations to the aerospace of China...for the  successful mission ... 👍 from India..

    165

    Bhuvanesh s.k
    Bhuvanesh s.k
    14 hours ago
    Congratulations...

    7

    Μιχ L
    Μιχ L
    15 hours ago
    Congrats! That's awesome!

    38

    Tuan Sayer
    Tuan Sayer
    17 hours ago
    great achievement.

    168

    ElSmusso
    ElSmusso
    7 hours ago
    Bravo China 🇨🇳 on my birthday 🥳 🚀
    cheers to you Chinese 🍻 from Norway 🇳🇴

    57

    Zhang Tony
    Zhang Tony
    14 hours ago
    祝贺!

    7

    Jose lozano
    Jose lozano
    17 hours ago
    💯💪🍾

    8

    Ben
    Ben
    16 hours ago
    Another great achievement by humans .Congratulations from Canada.

    38

    mushrif ali
    mushrif ali
    18 hours ago
    Good job 👍👏 china

    44

    S K
    S K
    16 hours ago
    Congrats from India

    82

    Wtf Genos
    Wtf Genos
    8 hours ago
    Congratulations from Malaysia

    65

    XXxFandundanxXX
    XXxFandundanxXX
    2 hours ago
    Congratulations from Czechia! We're glad.

    2

    ronkirk50
    ronkirk50
    15 hours ago
    Congratulations on a successful landing. I wish you well during the exploration phase.

    18

    nalakus1
    nalakus1
    18 hours ago
    Who is the fabulously accurate photographer filming the landing? Wow...

    51

    Alderbaran Orange
    Alderbaran Orange
    10 hours ago
    Congratulations from India, I hope future missions involve more international collaboration no matter who is launching the missions. I believe, this will help to learn more in less time, due to the nature of the space missions.

    41

    Csaba Balogh
    Csaba Balogh
    16 hours ago
    Nice job China! Congratulations from Hungary!

    46

    the Rock
    the Rock
    12 hours ago
    make sure the booster doesn't deorbit back to earth lol. Good race to space!

    1

    darthen856
    darthen856
    3 hours ago
    To accomplish this on the very first attempt with a mission of their own is impressive. Congratulations to CNSA!

    4

    Azula Quaza
    Azula Quaza
    18 hours ago
    Great job China! We should encourage all nations to explore the cosmos. Squash petty rivalries, it’s gonna take a lot of us to find humanity a 2nd home!
    - from Texas, USA

    77

    以德服人
    以德服人
    16 hours ago
    没有阴间滤镜看不习惯啊

    13

    Muhammad Usama
    Muhammad Usama
    13 hours ago
    Awesome achievement... Congratulations 🇵🇰

    56

    Ryan Macmillan
    Ryan Macmillan
    5 hours ago
    Success on its first attempt 👍🏻

    1

    Machiavelli
    Machiavelli
    7 hours ago
    Love the 6 into 1 exhaust on this craft, wonder what spark plugs they use.


    K P
    K P
    19 hours ago
    Ooooo I really fancy a Mars Bar now 😋

    82

    Lopici
    Lopici
    10 hours ago
    congratulations. well done

    3

    Leanne Grace
    Leanne Grace
    16 hours ago
    Congratulations from Scotland 🏴???????????????????????? 🇬🇧👽👍

    40

    mityaboy
    mityaboy
    13 hours ago
    Little Martians on the surface: What now? Another one? Jeez. These humans... When are the budget airlines joining in?
    Ryanair: well, there won't be seats on the flight and the food will cost you extra...
    Martians: WE WERE ONLY JOKING! STOP THEM!

    Congrats for the landing and the achievement. Next up: Titan.

    3

    Winter Snow
    Winter Snow
    17 hours ago
    Warm congratulations from Canada!👍 brilliant achievement of mankind !

    135

    Paul xu
    Paul xu
    18 hours ago
    The UK is going to send moris to the Mars as a master

    66

    Paradox Pete
    Paradox Pete
    9 hours ago
    Cool, well done!

    1

    Chily Official TV
    Chily Official TV
    4 hours ago
    Great Chinese 🤗

    2

    Gitarrenschule Wu
    Gitarrenschule Wu
    14 hours ago
    可以可以 干一杯先

    2

    Jefry Lee
    Jefry Lee
    58 minutes ago
    feeling happy and wonderful...  congrats from Pakistan


    WISDOM AND TALKS
    WISDOM AND TALKS
    17 hours ago
    Congratulations from Nepal.

    155

    Kumar mathipvp
    Kumar mathipvp
    17 hours ago
    👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

    4

    gavin zhang
    gavin zhang
    1 hour ago
    Great job,  expect more wonderful space journey coming soon


    tom li
    tom li
    2 hours ago
    Great job!


    Alex Liao
    Alex Liao
    8 hours ago
    Thanks to the European Space Agency and Argentina for their tangible help.

    5

    Travel Everywhere
    Travel Everywhere
    18 hours ago
    Congratulations. A noble achievement.

    134

    sharad chandra
    sharad chandra
    30 minutes ago
    India 🇮🇳 appreciates their achievement and hard work


    RANA EJAZ KHAN
    RANA EJAZ KHAN
    13 hours ago
    Congratulations from PAKISTAN 💖💗I love you🇵🇰

    108

    Y Zhang
    Y Zhang
    15 hours ago
    Congratulations on the successful landing!

    22

    Allan licud Jacildo
    Allan licud Jacildo
    12 hours ago (edited)
    congratulations guys..

    1

    zoe Zhang
    zoe Zhang
    18 hours ago
    主持人家里发生什么事情了吗?表情看起来很悲伤,安慰你 抱抱🤗

    114

    Huh ?
    Huh ?
    17 hours ago
    Congrats from india !! <3

    38

    Andre Fontes
    Andre Fontes
    6 hours ago
    nice 3d render


    Kiranjeet Kaur
    Kiranjeet Kaur
    16 hours ago
    How fast they recovery from Corona and move on to other mission
    And we Indians still struggling with the pandemic

    6


    Andy Jia
    Andy Jia
    19 hours ago
    million of kilometers away in Mars.  China and USA are competing peacefully. great !

    94

    Dwayne E. Towns
    Dwayne E. Towns
    14 hours ago
    I had no idea that China even had a rover mission to Mars. Congratulations China!

    10


    all western media is impressed by china success.. whether is western media or general people.
    this is how china fight back american , ending the myth that there is no progress without the west.
    This is what Russian president don't understand , there is no place for third
    place russia. is either Russia lead , or Russia die,  there is no reward for the losers ,that do nothing.
    and stay behind. This is why russia is not respected in the world. it largely a country that contribute in absolutely NOTHING in making society lives better ,with innovative and with advanced business. .


    Russia is now officially bypassed by china and now the new space race is between US and china ,
    by the time gas station Putin do anything interesting in space it will be too little and too late. No


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun May 16, 2021 12:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    owais.usmani

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    Post  owais.usmani Sun May 16, 2021 12:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Russia has problems on earth that need to be dealt with.

    Going to Mars is for children.

    Sending people anywhere is enormously expensive and complicated.

    Wasting Russian money on silly space programmes is just that...  a waste.

    So why are they wasting money on that new Mars mission then?

    What new Mars mission?

    Russia has no Mars mission planned or funded for the next 15 years at least.

    There may be talks about going to Mars from people here and there (sometimes even from your idol Rogozin) but unless a mission gets approval from Kremlin and funding starts, it is just talks, nothing else.

    Only thing Russia would achieve beyond Earth's orbit in next 15 years are those Luna landers, and maybe one or two unmanned Lunar missions if they finish its rocket in time.

    But one thing is certain, the number of Lunar missions Russia would achieve in the next 15 years, would be a lot less than the number of people Elon Musk would get killed on his Mars missions.
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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 Sun May 16, 2021 12:15 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Russia has problems on earth that need to be dealt with.

    Going to Mars is for children.

    Sending people anywhere is enormously expensive and complicated.

    Wasting Russian money on silly space programmes is just that...  a waste.

    So why are they wasting money on that new Mars mission then?

    What new Mars mission?

    Russia has no Mars mission planned or funded for the next 15 years at least.

    There may be talks about going to Mars from people here and there (sometimes even from your idol Rogozin) but unless a mission gets approval from Kremlin and funding starts, it is just talks, nothing else.

    Only thing Russia would achieve beyond Earth's orbit in next 15 years are those Luna landers, and maybe one or two unmanned Lunar missions if they finish its rocket in time.

    But one thing is certain, the number of Lunar missions Russia would achieve in the next 15 years, would be a lot less than the number of people Elon Musk would get killed on his Mars missions.

    correct. putins space program is dead on arrival and by the time he do anything in the year 2035 or later ,it will not matter , US and china will have mastered space travel to moon and mars and beyond. hey but at least putin can give gas discounts to any nation who want it. and show Russia farming wheat records or russia videos of their hosted olympics. Rolling Eyes


    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Sun May 16, 2021 12:20 pm


    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 Index

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 Index

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 Index

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 Index

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 Index

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun May 16, 2021 1:00 pm

    Anything beyond LEO and GEO is manchild fantasies that brings no value to humanity.

    The US prints its own money and China has plenty of money too... let them spend money on that crap...

    Please I think there was a population poll that asks what are Russians most proud of and space exploration achievements ranked 2nd place behind WW2 victory.

    So perhaps they should spend money on starting a WWIII and then spend money on more space exploration... if that was the order?

    Russia has every reason to be proud of its space exploration history, it has done very well, but right now it hasn't got money to fritter away on things that don't provide obvious financial returns. Launching satellites makes money and provides services, and maintains military capability, but sending people to Mars... why?

    To be first.

    How pathetic are they... the first people... the first black man to be US president wasn't really their best, and his lack of effect in regard to race relations makes me suspect that women still wont be happy when a woman becomes president either.

    On paper surviving on Mars for a period of time with the lack of resources humans take for granted here on earth is a useful thing... recycle and reuse to an extent that we simply don't bother to here on earth because there is so much fresh air and clean water and sunlight and energy... some technologies they need to develop for living on Mars could be as dull as a material to store food in that is 100% reusable so plastic cling film wont block pipes or jam machines... in fact some sort of biodegradable material to store food till it is ready to be consumed and then be able to be broken down and used as compost to grow more food and create more containers would be something practical and useful from the space programme.

    3D printer technology will make carrying spare parts much easier... especially if existing parts can be made of the same material and put in a crusher and reused to make different things as needed.

    I would say developing the technology to go there would be more valuable than actually going there.

    Russia landing a person on Mars would create a great shockwave across the world compared to the moon landing and also I want to furiously masturbate to the despair and tears of musk fans.

    Russia becoming more independent and strong and creating a huge middle class with no one in the poverty/starvation area and a tiny 1% group of super rich would be a much better goal.

    Any missions Musk launches will get people killed... the guy is a proven dreamer.

    Good at milking US taxpayer dollars... see he was on Saturday Night Live and bombed so bad his companies lost 20 billion in value...

    But he is a free market hero...

    You see Blinken and his colleague took quite alot of pride bragging to the Chinese about the perseverance rover landing.

    Pride and bragging.... sums the US up in three words... like Blinken had anything to do with the programme.

    It might change how the U.S. Government operates to help improve its population with a better life and education as to why they lost to the Russians.

    Not Russias problem.

    What is the most astonishing is how there are many Musk worshippers saying shit like I cant wait to tell my kids we will land on Mars. However they do get the starship to leave orbit I am being very optimistic when I say they are 5-10% in progress to get to Mars.

    I would say 5% only assuming they meet their goals regarding reuse because they are no where near that at the moment.

    I guess you never heard of Robert Zubrin's Mars Direct. That is where they got the idea from. The idea is to bring H2 with the ship to Mars (LH2). Then scoop up CO2 from the Martian atmosphere (95% of the Martian atmosphere is CO2) and convert that to methane (CH4) and oxygen (O2). 4H2 + CO2 = CH4 + 2H2O via the Sabatier reaction. You do electrolysis and you crack the resulting H2O into more H2 and O2. The H2 could also be obtained from electrolysis of water in Mars instead of bringing it with the ship but that would require actually mining the water which is a lot more difficult. The idea is that you massively reduce the amount of fuel you need to carry from Earth to do the trip back.

    Sounds great, but the amount of H2 you would need to carry would be enormous and in most states... compressed or super cold both offer their own problems because it needs to be kept compressed or super cold for the entire trip to mars, and then converted to methane before you can hope to return.

    Mining water on mars is not like mining it here... here there is an abundance of water... even in the atmosphere... on Mars there is not.

    Mining and moving and storing water would be problematic because at the normal temperature and pressure on Mars it is not a liquid... it is a gas or a solid... it is too cold and the air pressure is too low for it to be a liquid most of the time.

    Pumping ice is not possible and heating everything to make it a liquid will require enormous amounts of energy...

    you are confusing space with putin's hockey or putin's stupid olympics ,

    I think you are... there are probably more people playing ice hockey right now in Moscow than there are people who have gone into earth orbit or further afield...

    Space shit is just not practical and it simply does not earn its way most of the time.

    Not saying they should stop exploring space, but wasting money on it is just that... wasting.

    They need to target their spending so they get good returns... technology to build warm comfortable habitats on Mars could be applied in the far north and far east in Russia to improve comfort levels and make housing more affordable for everyone.


    The west will only listen Russia ,when they become a leaders in space ,or the leaders in future high tech that society truly enjoy , surpassing anglowestern and their asian tech colonies business

    The west will never listen to Russia... just let it go.

    american leadership in the world in space and very high tech industry.

    America buys the technology it likes and needs, but most of its stuff is made offshore because that is cheaper. When people stop accepting US Monopoly money as currency then look at how their mars rovers save them from having to get a real job and work for a living... Ironic that the American people have been working harder than ever, it is their politicians and the super rich that have been skyving and having long toilet breaks and super long lunches to avoid working.

    So why are they wasting money on that new Mars mission then?

    It is all talk isn't it?

    You said so yourself... it is Rogozin one upping Musk.

    Imagine Phobos Grunt was a success and Russia actually returned soil samples from that moon. What would have the conversation in this forum looked like? Would we still say such missions were a waste of money and be advising Russia to stop, who by the time would be preparing say for a Jupiter moon landing mission? Something tells me not.

    And if it did return soil samples from a moon in orbit around Mars and it led to a better understanding about Mars and what is moons really are... so what?


    Really, this whole defense of Russia in its lag in space exploration programs is terribly beginning to look like the 'grapes are sour anyway' thing. It is lagging for now and that is it. It does not mean that it will continue this way and we may yet see its best days ahead. Most of us hope so.

    The thing is that the only way to be in that game is to spend money on it and I really don't think they should spend any more money than they currently are spending.

    It is like drones... for a long time they did nothing about them, then a conflict happened where they experienced the effect of their use and they started to spend money and now they have drones for all sorts of uses and in many ways are in the lead in drones... particularly in weapons specifically designed for use by drones... but then that makes sense... these are practical things that saves lives in conflicts and makes their ability to monitor areas cheaper and more effective.

    Building one off long range super rockets and mounting expeditions that will cost trillions of dollars to take people to Mars and then hopefully bring them all back... why?

    To be first?

    Why?

    And Vann goes on about leading in space... leading what?

    Do you get a cookie if you are the leader?

    You get a huge bill, you waste a lot of money and resources to be the leader... but no actual tangible benefit.

    Russia has problems in Russia to deal with... pipelines and bridges and rail lines and roads don't build themselves, and create much better improvements in the economy than firing off some rocket into space.

    The technology Russia is developing might make trips to Mars practical... I would say nuclear propulsion, nuclear energy, and the ability to scrub solid carbon from a CO2 or CO gas would be the three primary technologies that could make travel to Mars much easier and much safer, but there are so many variables it is still a gamble.

    People talk about the potential of being the first to set foot on Mars, but what about the first crew to die going to or coming home from Mars... my money is on Musk... Twisted Evil

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun May 16, 2021 2:02 pm

    Isn't the purpose of Nukeleon supposed to get astronauts further distances?

    I'm thinking they are waiting for that before wanting to push further. Limited funds means having to be strict with your budget.

    There is one thing I agree with Papa over Rogozin - the guy keeps changing development plans for Rockets when it isn't necessary. Re-usable rocket sounds great and all but not sure if necessary. I mean, if it means spending 10M less per launch for satellites, great! But if it doesn't mean any money saved, then why bother?

    Things may change once Angara-5A and Soyuz 6 are completed and used.
    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Sun May 16, 2021 2:56 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    russians ,that will want to go study somewhere else ,because the opportunities in russia are not high to get into anything else than gas stations projects. or nuclear reactors.  
    Or the production of vaccines. Or the construction of heavy mining equipment. Or solving complex problems in mathematics, physics, and programming. Or achieving impressive results in sports, art, and science. Indeed, "Russia is a gas station country that produces nothing" - all in full accordance with the words of Orak Babama, the big Black overlord for you, obviously.




    Vann7 wrote:All humanity dreams ,to conquer space , and there is nothing more important for the vast majority  of human beings , to lead in space ,this makes society to dream big about the future. 
    All of humanity spends several times more on cosmetics and implants for tits and bums than on scientific programs for space exploration. I will not even compare it with the amount of funding for military programs.


    Vann7 wrote: space explorations is not a penis bragging contest 
    However, this is what you have been doing throughout the history of the discussion: talking about space exploration as if it were a competition to measure the length of a penis.

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    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Sun May 16, 2021 3:06 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    There is one thing I agree with Papa over Rogozin - the guy keeps changing development plans for Rockets when it isn't necessary.
    It is not Rogozin who is developing the plans. This is the competence of the Council of Chief Designers, the Presidium of the Russian Academy of Sciences and the Space Council under the President of the Russian Federation.


    miketheterrible wrote: Things may change once Angara-5A and Soyuz 6 are completed and used.
    Angara-A5 currently has only three confirmed modifications: A-5, A-5M and A-5P (in fact, almost the same A-5M with deforced RD-191M and additional measures to ensure the safety of manned flights).
    The question of the feasibility of developing Soyuz-6 will be resolved only in late 2021-early 2022, not earlier. In general, it makes no sense to talk about the development of any modifications of the Soyuz-5 until the end of the development of the base rocket.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Russia has problems on earth that need to be dealt with.

    Going to Mars is for children.

    Sending people anywhere is enormously expensive and complicated.

    Wasting Russian money on silly space programmes is just that... a waste.

    So why are they wasting money on that new Mars mission then?

    What new Mars mission?

    Russia has no Mars mission planned or funded for the next 15 years at least....

    One with ESA

    I mean if it's so irelevant why are they wasting money on it?
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    Post  kvs Sun May 16, 2021 4:51 pm

    It really is pathetic how we have onanism in this thread about Russia "failing" and "falling behind" when it is the only country on the planet
    with a viable nuclear space propulsion system in development. American talk about nuclear propulsion is much like their endless boasting
    about hypersonic missile tech. Show me the money, Bolton. But at least the US did have actual hypersonic systems back in the 1960s and
    its ABM rockets are real tech. In terms of space nuclear propulsion, the picture is not so rosy.
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    Post  owais.usmani Sun May 16, 2021 5:11 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Russia has problems on earth that need to be dealt with.

    Going to Mars is for children.

    Sending people anywhere is enormously expensive and complicated.

    Wasting Russian money on silly space programmes is just that...  a waste.

    So why are they wasting money on that new Mars mission then?

    What new Mars mission?

    Russia has no Mars mission planned or funded for the next 15 years at least....

    One with ESA

    I mean if it's so irelevant why are they wasting money on it?

    You kidding me?

    The discussion was about Russian solo unmanned and manned missions to Mars i.e. copying SpaceX.

    The one you mentioned i.e. Exomars is completely different mission type.

    Exomars 1st part was launched in 2016, Russia's ONLY contribution to that mission was providing Proton launcher for it, for which ESA paid for to Khrunichev. 2nd part is due to be launched in 2022, also on a Proton launcher. It does have a NPO Lavochkin designed and built lander and decent stage, but I suspect funding for that also came from both ESA as well as Roscosmos.

    I am not aware of any other Russian Mars mission at this moment which has any hope of getting the green light and funding in the near future. First they need to develop the appropriate rockets and upper stages, and shift all their launches to Vostochny from Baikonur. They need to learn and perfect the soft landings and sample return missions through the Luna landers on the Moon. IMO they are proceeding with their deep space program at just the right pace as exorbitant spending will only increase the chances of Russian economy and in turn their space program imploding Soviet style.

    IMO the leadership in Kremlin and Roscosmos has understood that they do not need to compete directly with US space program like the Soviets did. They can continue steady progress on their projects while Elon Musk can keep on stuffing his fanboys into his grain silo aka starship and keep sending them on a one way ticket towards the red planet.
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    Post  thegopnik Sun May 16, 2021 5:34 pm

    Amur is re-usable and they are hinting that the Angara-5M is re-usable. Proton-M which 1st flew in 2001 was expandable and Rogozin lowering the costs did not stop Musk to get the trampoline working again for a 62 million cost while claiming 50 million+ is what he charges. There are hints that other space agencies are going re-usable as well . It took 17 years later for Space X to become relevant with a block 5 design and those newer designs on Russia's side are estimated to be way cheaper hence their creation with re-usability. After krylo-sv I want development of fly wing rockets that will be bigger than Baikal.

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    Post  kvs Sun May 16, 2021 5:54 pm

    I have not seen any serious analysis of the economics of reusable launchers. One of the biggest costs for launches is insurance and that
    will never change since reusable launchers do not change the risk of loss. The cost of the engines and the rocket body are not all that
    high so being able to use a rocket twice does not imply a 50% reduction in launch cost. Doing it 10 times will not give you a 90% cost
    reduction.

    If you look at NASA's launch costs, they are all about overhead. All those warm bodies doing their jobs. The cost of fuel will also not be
    affected by use of reusable launchers. Then we have this ridiculous implicit assumption that there is zero cost to return a reusable launcher
    to service after every launch. I expect the insurance rate to go up with each successive launch of a reusable launcher since the risk of
    failure clearly increases.

    We need some solid numbers, but I suppose those will arrive after experience with reusable launches.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun May 16, 2021 5:59 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Russia has problems on earth that need to be dealt with.
    Going to Mars is for children.
    Sending people anywhere is enormously expensive and complicated.
    Wasting Russian money on silly space programmes is just that... a waste.
    So why are they wasting money on that new Mars mission then?
    What new Mars mission?
    Russia has no Mars mission planned or funded for the next 15 years at least....

    One with ESA

    I mean if it's so irelevant why are they wasting money on it?

    You kidding me?

    The discussion was about Russian solo unmanned and manned missions to Mars i.e. copying SpaceX.

    The one you mentioned i.e. Exomars is completely different mission type....

    It's still a Mars mission

    If it's so irelevant why are they wasting money on it?



    owais.usmani wrote:...IMO the leadership in Kremlin and Roscosmos has understood that they do not need to compete directly with US space program like the Soviets did. They can continue steady progress on their projects...

    That's the thing, they have no projects

    Yes they have concepts and suggestions and contemplations and mullings and ponderings and all that exciting stuff but as for anything even remotely attached to reality they don't have anything bigger than German co-funded rover and American paid post-Soviet leftovers that they are trying to pass off as "new" space station (ROFL)

    They also don't have the balls to admit the truth

    But there are tweets of course and Facebook posts

    As long as haters are not allowed to hate Russian space program will be safe because hate is the ultimate enemy... Cool






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    Post  owais.usmani Sun May 16, 2021 6:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote: It's still a Mars mission

    If it's so irelevant why are they wasting money on it?

    As I mentioned before, Exomars is a joint ESA- Roscosmos mission. Roscosmos does have a portion of its budget dedicated to scientific missions, and the mission is primarily funded by ESA.

    And most importantly, Exomars is a scientific research mission, so no its NOT irrelevant. Manned missions to Mars would be many orders of magnitude times more expensive than a scientific mission and only thing Russia would achieve by them would be a statement of "my Mars dick is bigger than yours" while also crippling their economy.

    Mars missions by Russia would only be feasible once their economy is at least 5 times the current size.

    PapaDragon wrote: American paid post-Soviet leftovers that they are trying to pass off as "new" space station

    What??? For the new all Russian space station, they will detach only the Nauka module from ISS and move it there. Nauka is not, repeat NOT American paid. Only the Zarya module of ISS is paid and owned by USA.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun May 16, 2021 9:14 pm

    kvs wrote: It really is pathetic how we have onanism in this thread about Russia "failing" and "falling behind" when it is the only country on the planet
    with a viable nuclear space propulsion system in development.  
    American talk about nuclear propulsion is much like their endless boasting
    about hypersonic missile tech.    Show me the money, Bolton.   But at least the US did have actual hypersonic systems back in the 1960s and
    its ABM rockets are real tech.   In terms of space nuclear propulsion, the picture is not so rosy.  



    Russia is falling   NOW   in space , far behind US and China. And is not russian scientist or engineers the ones to blame for this , but the incompetent and stupid president defunding in half russia space program ,in times russia more desperately needs to attract nations ,make friends and allies ,to counter the west.

    Somewheeeeere in the fuuuuuuture , in the year 2035 or year 2100 , if Russia have not been disbanded by the west yet , as they did to the soviet union and so many other countries , then
    maybe if they ever deploy a nuclear engine , and if they manage to proof it works ,and land in mars ,and return back,  and the west have none,, then maybe he will have
    something to talk about , like sorry we failed to conquer mars ,in last place ,but now we have this engine that speed up the travel ,but all this nuclear engines are totally useless for russia , if Russia allows the west to lead now , in space explorations and allow the west to land first with humans in mars. In Business timing is everything , being very late ,can mean being dead .Is a problem of timing , Putin timing in space is wrong. and by the time Russia do anything interesting in space , it will be not really that important ,if many others have done it too.

    THe fucking point about going to space ,and do it now , that you don't understand , is to teach , to show the world ,that they don't need to fucking follow the american system ,that they are not so unstopable as they think ,that americans can be surpassed.  

    im well aware of all the tech laboratory demos ,that russia is doing on the russia science and technology thread,  but all that tech is totally useless if remain in a laboratory , because is not about
    showing or not if you have skills and brains, but instead what russia needs to show the world ,that
    Russia have already business that surpass the western ones , not in the future but NOW.

    but that will never happen as long as putin is in power , because he is like garryb, he don't see
    the importance of leading , and having in the present ,Today ,superior advanced business ,than those that the west have. and NASA is also working in a nuclear reactor too , but right now , the nuclear engine ,is vaporware , untested and unproven to work in the real thing ,for both for russia and for NASA until they have it fulling working and ready to use.  only when the nuclear engine is finished
    and ready and safe for humans to use.. then  only then Russia will have something to brag about , when is this ? in year 2035? 2040?  gimmie a fucking break , russia needs now and not in 20 years to compete with americans in every area that can help Russia , eclipse United States ,that really matters.


    in practical economic terms ,at least right now , there is nothing in mars and moon ,that russia can properly take advantage of it  until they have technology ,to keep alive humans in other planets for weeks or months. the real advantage now , of going to moon and mars is all about a show of force ,
    to show the world that they don't need to follow the western world ,that there are other alternatives.
    Unfortunately thanks to putin ,what that imbecile show is that the west is right , and that russia is an outdated country economy and significantly inferior to the west ,when it comes to business power and nations true development. So is putin the only one to blame for russia being alone in the world ,
    without any business world that could encourage nations to abandon the west.

    this is all about ending western empire and you can only do that with leadership in advanced business that no other nation can do ,or almost no one and that society truly love.  the point is to
    attract nations towards Russia orbit ,so that US lose power and no longer can harm Russia with any sanction if no nation follows them. IS an influence race , those that fail to influence the world ,will be easily isolated by the west with sanctions.


    by the way the west have plans to land with humans up to 10 years earlier at least than Russia ,
    this is what elon musk is pushing and he can do it. so good luck with the gas station president ,he is more dangerous than navalny ,by a mile, because nalvany don't control anything in russia and nobody follows him, but putin controls everything in russia and he is destroying the nation possibilities to change the world in a more constructive direction, by refusing to compete with the west ,by demoralizing their people ,their scientist ,students ,with his passiveness ,insecurity and lack of interest to lead in the world an compete with the west. Russia possibilities to survive without offering any competition to the west ,are next to zero . people will abandon the nation in mass exodus of population ,when they notice their nation is not progressing and scientific and engineering talent will leave to europe or china ,to find a job in a place ,that there is something happening and taking seriously space.

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    Post  thegopnik Mon May 17, 2021 6:03 am

    Russia has many projects that will boost their economy back up the priority now is Amur, Angara -5M, Yenisei, Don rockets and the Nuklon spacecraft. Other future priority projects are more nuclear reactors, MPD thrusters and fly wing designs. I dont really care much about the Chinese and US dickwaving on getting Mars samples back from Mars to earth on 2028-2030. If US or Chinese companies don't quickly prioritize those 3 specific future fields they will be long behind on either getting customers to purchase their rockets to profit their space companies or do better with interplanetary space travel because of their design experience and using MPD thrusters for controlled speed and re-entry on other celestial bodies. The west wont have any influence on sanctions since a different route was taken for Russia. The other two can keep playing with chemical rockets and using half their fuel to re-land but that wont put them ahead because depending how late they start will just push Russia to be further ahead. Just like there are still issues with them launching the agm-183a a supposed HGV off an aircraft while the Russian's have already launched GZUR a scramjet which is a more difficult design than HGV and still they dont have anything comparable to Avangard.

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    Post  GarryB Mon May 17, 2021 11:40 am

    Isn't the purpose of Nukeleon supposed to get astronauts further distances?

    I'm thinking they are waiting for that before wanting to push further. Limited funds means having to be strict with your budget.

    Right now going to Mars with current technology is very risky and very expensive.

    Using nuclear propulsion to get there faster with more mass, and to have nuclear power generation along with heating as a useful waste byproduct, and being able to scrub carbon from CO-2 and CO will all go an enormous way to make a trip to mars quicker and safer and cheaper.

    Rushing to go early to try to beat another country will likely kill people and lead to failure.

    There is one thing I agree with Papa over Rogozin - the guy keeps changing development plans for Rockets when it isn't necessary. Re-usable rocket sounds great and all but not sure if necessary. I mean, if it means spending 10M less per launch for satellites, great! But if it doesn't mean any money saved, then why bother?

    Perhaps new propulsion systems and new fuel options might make reusing parts of launch systems become much easier and simpler and cheaper... and if that is true then why not.

    The US Space Shuttle was supposed to be totally reusable and way cheaper than using rockets but it never even got close.

    Ironically it was least efficient as a shuttle to take crew to a space station and bring crew home.

    Its killer feature was that it could go up and service satellites in orbit so in theory you could design big heavy expensive satellites and put them up in orbit and then after 10 years when it runs out of fuel and the batteries have been recharged beyond the warranty period you could fly up with your space shuttle and refuel it and replace components to make it good for another 10 years... that would save literally billions of dollars... especially if you have a string of these and you could refurbish 5 or 6 in the week that you are up in orbit in the shuttle.

    Some sort of nuclear powered tug boat design could also do the same... the Russians experimented with satellites that launched mini satellites and the flew toward other satellites and inspected them externally with cameras.

    Recovering faulty satellites and repairing them inside the shuttle and then releasing them again is something you can't do in a normal rocket that has no payload bay that can be sealed and pressurised and used as a zero gravity work area separated from empty space.

    I mean if it's so irelevant why are they wasting money on it?

    They are sharing the costs with the Europeans, why not... it wont be super expensive for them and offers some returns.

    The discussion was about Russian solo unmanned and manned missions to Mars i.e. copying SpaceX.

    Except for pride there is no benefit to going to Mars alone except having to foot the enormous bill on your own.

    And sorry... since when did planning a trip to Mars become owned by SpaceX... how is planning a mission to Mars copying SpaceX?

    SpaceX is launching rockets into space... so they are copying the Soviets I guess... and failing at that.

    Maybe you can talk about someone copying SpaceX when SpaceX actually manages to do something that is useful and not a copy or reproduction of existing technology or capability.

    It does have a NPO Lavochkin designed and built lander and decent stage, but I suspect funding for that also came from both ESA as well as Roscosmos.

    Where are your comments in the threads about Lend Lease... US and UK provided lend lease products were paid for by the Soviets, so it was Soviet property paid for.

    IMO they are proceeding with their deep space program at just the right pace as exorbitant spending will only increase the chances of Russian economy and in turn their space program imploding Soviet style.

    They are proceeding the way a country on a budget would proceed.

    IMO the leadership in Kremlin and Roscosmos has understood that they do not need to compete directly with US space program like the Soviets did. They can continue steady progress on their projects while Elon Musk can keep on stuffing his fanboys into his grain silo aka starship and keep sending them on a one way ticket towards the red planet.

    Money pissed away on a rushed attempt to get to Mars first with Cosmonauts could be much better spent on practical things Russians can use and benefit from now.

    Money spent on exotic technologies will have an abundance of other uses too and will make operations in space much cheaper... for Russia... so finding "partners" in the future shouldn't be too much of a problem.

    As long as haters are not allowed to hate Russian space program will be safe because hate is the ultimate enemy...

    Hate is the ultimate enima... it is clearly not helping you to relax.... take a chill pill before you end up with an ulcer.

    Mars missions by Russia would only be feasible once their economy is at least 5 times the current size.

    Or the technology for reuse and 3D printing and nuclear power generation and propulsion are dramatically improved... which are all things they are working on.

    THe fucking point about going to space ,and do it now , that you don't understand , is to teach , to show the world ,that they don't need to fucking follow the american system ,that they are not so unstopable as they think ,that americans can be surpassed.

    So you want them to copy America despite not having a money printing press business , and follow America in their desperate attempts to remain relevant by being the first to Mars...

    It is OK, because affirmative action means in 10 years time the people in charge wont know what they are doing and it could be suggested to them they mount a manned mission to be the first people to set foot on the Sun. It is OK... they are not stupid... they will be going at night... they just need to find a bottle big enough to hold the stick of the rocket they will be using...

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    Post  kvs Mon May 17, 2021 3:19 pm

    The commenters ragging on Russia for not engaging in a new space race are just upset because they are not getting free entertainment.
    They could care less about Russia or its interests. Their drivel is systematically debunked but they keep on repeating it. It is like arguing
    with climate change deniers, who always revert to the same BS (for example, that some local temperature around their house "proves" that
    the global temperature is not conforming to their ignorant expectations of warming).

    The creation of a new manufacturing plant for the Angara rockets is already an achievement since it is the most developed in terms of
    mass production and economies of scale rocket assembly line on the planet. Space X has nothing like it in spite of being the private
    sector magical outfit that supposedly does everything better. We will have to wait and see what the costs are for the Angara launches
    in the coming years. I suspect that they will give all this reusable delusion a good thrashing.

    And for planetary exploration, enough with the 1960s redux already. Russia should finish the Nuklon and invest in new variants instead
    of wasting money on inertial guidance tin can missions. If it "loses the race" by 15 years, it will still come out ahead. All the hater
    yaps can keep on yapping because Russia is not doing what they want. Who cares what you want.

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    Post  lancelot Wed May 19, 2021 4:23 am

    Ex-CEO of Khrunichev space research center gets 5 years in custody for embezzlement

    Moscow’s Dorogomilovsky District Court on Monday sentenced Alexander Seliverstov, ex-CEO of the Khrunichev State Research and Production Space Center, one of the country's leading space enterprises, to 5 years in penal colony for embezzlement, the court’s press service told RAPSI.

    Additionally, the court barred him from carrying out business at state enterprises for 2 years.

    His two deputies Victor Larin and Yuriy Yakovlev received 4.5 years in penal colony each.

    Investigators claimed that the Khrunichev Center unduly granted benefits to Metalresource company during the assignment of contracts for metal supplies.

    As reported earlier, in 2012 Larin signed the 290 million-ruble ($4 mln) contract with Metalresource for supplying metal for Proton and Angara booster rockets without proper auction. Later the same company received similar contracts that involved Seliverstov and deputy head Yakovlev.

    Damages allegedly caused by the ex-heads of the Center have been estimated at 108 million rubles ($1,3 million).

    The Khrunichev State Research and Production Space Center is one of the country's leading space enterprises. Currently the research center’s main priority is construction of “Proton” and “Angara” space rockets. In 2014, it was revealed that enterprise faces financial troubles.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2021/5/18/16203/

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    Post  kvs Wed May 19, 2021 5:25 am

    So the system is doing its job. It would be a bad sign if one never heard of such legal action. Corruption is "non-existent in the west" only
    propaganda fantasy. Embezzlement in the USA has been replaced with government pork. Crooks have been laundered and made "legit".
    For example Musk and his Space-X racket. In "50 to 100 years behind" Russia, such pork is not readily available so starving maggots need
    to engage in classical crime. This opens them up to being sent to the slammer. Good.



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    Post  Vann7 Wed May 19, 2021 4:22 pm

    This is how Sad have become Russia space program , now they desperate to sell anything just for a few dollars. No


    Spacecraft for sale: Russia’s Roscosmos agency advertises vehicle used to bring International Space Station crew back to Earth

    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #4 60a4d8612030275e907841f9

    https://www.rt.com/russia/524198-roscosmos-advertises-soyuz-vehicle/

    This is how bad the state of Russia space program is , that they need to sell their latest hardware now to the best offer on the internet  , to keep the agency operating.  No

    Again who could be responsible for this disaster sorry state of Russia space program ?
    that now fighting for any kind of cash they could get ... in light of the lack of funding the agency suffer?


    i blame aliens from mars for sure .. they are the ones in charge of assigning money for
    Russia space program.  Rolling Eyes

    Is like a flash back of the 90s ,when soviet union collapsed , they began to sell every space tech ,
    to NASA or universities in the west with special discounts. Even the lunokhod rovers that soviet sent to the moon were sold to NASA .

     When nations are run by idiots , the morale of the nation is the first thing that goes down , and the most important industries goes all the way to the floor . Russia space agency what supposed to be the most prestigious agency of Russia , that they have to show is not an outdated nation .    Laughing

    So while china is sending pictures to the world of mars ,And nasa sending videos of drones in mars ,
    Russia space program is making headlines but for opposite reasons ,for how sad and pathetic have become .   No

    The Russian cosmonauts will be better off moving to china , and finding a job there , in their space
    program , because for them in russia ,the way things going ,there is no much future for anything interesting to happen in the next 10 to 15 years. ,. No

    they should try selling Soyuz in western Ebay , for museums interested to document early history
    of space travel . lol1

    or it could end , in a backyard somewhere in russia ,sold as scrap metal.   Laughing

    This is awfully bad ,the people that runs Russia have no idea what leadership is ,  this is why the massive exodus of population jumping ship .

    if this is not a sign of the desperate sorry state of russia space program , then no idea what is.
    not long ago , civilians , invaded russian space facilities and stole things , russia not even have enough money to recruit proper security for their space facilities.  No

    at least there is food in russia and  hockey still popular and important too.  thumbsup  

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    Post  GarryB Thu May 20, 2021 2:32 am

    Spacecraft for sale: Russia’s Roscosmos agency advertises vehicle used to bring International Space Station crew back to Earth

    That is bloody genius... those things are not reusable and so they likely have dozens of them around the place... am sure a few western musuems or rich western collectors would want to buy it, which generates some funds that they can use to further do their job.

    I take my hat off in respect of their common sense.

    It would make them no other money except recycling and as a complete object it is worth rather more than piles of the component materials stacked up together.

    After the first few have been used the next ones are nothing special, and become a problem to dispose of.

    This way they are getting rid of a problem and likely going to make good money on them at the same time.

    Sponsored content

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