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    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

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    Post  Kiko Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:29 pm

    12 MAR, 11:44
    Russia ready for talks with Turkey on Su-35, Su-57 fighters

    Russia earlier noted its readiness to participate in the program of developing the Turkish TF-X fifth-generation fighter.

    MOSCOW, March 12. /TASS/. Russia is ready for holding negotiations with Turkey on the possible delivery of Su-35 and Su-57 fighter aircraft, if it receives the corresponding request, Spokesperson for Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Valeria Reshetnikova said on Friday.

    "As for Ankara’s potential plans of purchasing Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters, it should be noted that the Turkish side has been informed about their technical specifications in full. If there is a request from Turkey for these planes, we are ready for negotiations on this issue," the spokesperson said.

    Russia earlier noted its readiness to participate in the program of developing the Turkish TF-X fifth-generation fighter, the spokesperson said.

    "The Turkish side has for quite long stated its intention to implement the project of developing its own TF-X fifth-generation fighter. Russia earlier indicated that it was ready to consider the possibility of cooperation under this program. However, we have not received the corresponding request from Ankara so far," Reshetnikova added.

    https://tass.com/defense/1265467
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    Post  Kiko Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:55 am

    Su-57 became a reason for Turkey to tease Moscow and Washington
    March 12, 2021

    Will Turkey get access to Russia's most important military-technical secrets? And why is Ankara teasing Moscow at all with the possibility of concluding a new and very expensive contract for the purchase of military equipment? All these questions arose after another statement by Turkey regarding the procurement of Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters.

    "If Russia has an aircraft that meets our current needs ... then, of course, we can buy it," said Turkish Minister of Industry and Technology Mustafa Varank. The minister's words came in response to further suggestions that his country needs modern fighters (for example, Russian Su-35 or Su-57).

    However, does Ankara really need Russian military aircraft?

    To date, Turkey has independently produced and continues to produce licensed fighters of American origin from the F-16 family in the F-16C Block 30, F-16 Block 50+, F-16D Block 30, F-16D Block 50 and F-16 Block50 + modifications. There are about 260 such multipurpose fighters in the Turkish Air Force, which bear the “Made in Turkey” brand. Turkey also produced light military transport aircraft Tusas CN-235 M - licensed Spanish CASA CN-235.

    Turkey has gained experience from participating in the F-35 production program, in which it has been involved since 2002. The Turkish industry produced about seven percent of the parts for the new fighter.

    Turkey, which planned to purchase 100 of these newest fighters, was one of the largest customers along with Great Britain and Australia, counted on its own production, but was refused by the United States. Now F-35s outside the United States are produced only in Italy, it is planned to open an assembly line for these fighters in Japan by Mitsubishi (38 units).

    Instability in US-Turkish relations and Europe's desire to limit Turkey's growing independence in the international political arena played a role in Washington's decision. And when Ankara “kicked up” and abandoned the far imperfect and expensive American Patriots in favor of the Russian S-400s, they shook a finger from Washington: they say, they won't get the F-35 now. Turkey retorted in response: “What, there are no other worthy planes? We will buy Russian Su-57s".

    Now the topic of Ankara's purchases of Russian fighters has again become a priority. However, one should not harbor any special illusions about the successful deal between Moscow and Ankara. In fact, having announced a tender for the purchase of foreign fighter aircraft, Turkey gives priority to the creation of its own fifth generation fighter. We are talking about the promising TF-X (Turkish Fighter-Experimental) aircraft, which so far exists only in a full-size layout, and the first flight, scheduled for 2023, has smoothly flowed into 2025. That is, it will appear in the country's air force in ten years at best.

    And yet, on only one F-16, even modernized and improved, Turkey is unlikely to maintain dominance in the region.

    Therefore, quite predictably, Ankara is looking for a replacement to update its combat aircraft fleet - and here the option with the acquisition of the Russian Su-35, and possibly the Su-57, seems to be the most profitable acquisition.

    Indeed, according to a number of independent assessments, the Russian fighter is no worse than its American competitor, while significantly cheaper. He, however, has a significant drawback precisely from the point of view of the world arms market. Foreign buyers prefer to buy equipment that has already been mastered in large quantities by the manufacturing country, run-in, and cured of childhood diseases. In this sense, the American car wins - for all its shortcomings, the F-35 has long been accepted into service, dozens of these machines fly in the troops not only of the United States, but also of a number of its allied countries. While the Su-57 in the Russian Air Force is still only in a single copy.

    “Turkey is now more interested in purchasing Russian fighters,” military aviation expert Colonel Alexander Drobyshevsky told the VZGLYAD newspaper. - There is both a political and an economic nuance here. The Turkish president is a cunning fox, and with such a step he will kick the American administration, as he did with the purchase of the S-400. This is such a "response" for the lost production of the F-35.

    In the event of such a deal, Russia will receive a very lucrative order not only in economic terms, but also a certain influence on Ankara. The acquisition of Russian fighters is also the subsequent training of pilots and technical personnel, repair work, supply of spare parts, and aircraft repair work. These are inevitable contacts and emerging connections".

    However, if Turkey nevertheless makes such a decision, it will not be easy to implement, primarily from a technical point of view. “The Turkish Air Force makes extensive use of American F-16 fighters and closely cooperates with the United States in the field of personnel training. Turkey will need a serious reform, the question will arise about America's willingness to provide the F-16 with spare parts. But if Ankara actually decides to move away from such close cooperation with the United States, it will definitely need sophisticated military equipment from other suppliers - it is impossible to purchase American weapons and conduct a foreign policy independent of the United States, ”Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told VZGLYAD newspaper ...

    As for the question that, they say, we are equipping the NATO country with our advanced technologies in the field of combat aviation, there should not be any particular worries here either.

    If it really comes to the conclusion and implementation of contracts, then the planes will be exported in the standard configuration, that is, the glider itself and avionics, without the latest equipment and weapons. And if, say, half of the world is armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles, this does not undermine our defenses. So it is with fighters, the value of which lies precisely in weapons that remain secret and can be used by Russian pilots.

    "The preparation of the export passport is controlled by the structure of the Ministry of Defense - the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation," says the editor-in-chief of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" Viktor Murakhovsky. - Without a visa from the defense department, no product will go abroad in a configuration that poses a threat to Russia's national security. This also applies to the Su-35 and Su-57 fighters. Nobody will know the secrets and peculiarities of our aircraft".

    There are, of course, nuances with Turkey. Its already mentioned membership in NATO, though not the biggest, is still an obstacle. Ankara is unlikely to want to purchase a simplified (export) version of the Su-35 or Su-57, but will demand that everything be on "full stuffing". Again, it is unprofitable for the Turks to depend on Russia for the supply of spare parts, so they will want, albeit partially, but to establish the production of these fighters on their territory.

    Moreover, it is likely that Turkey will want to get the opportunity to produce the licensed Su-57 itself, a kind of version of its Turkish-57. At the same time, it will most likely require a Russian loan for this production, which is not very profitable for Russia itself, it itself needs funds for the serial production of the fighter.

    Turkey has a big problem with a key component of the aircraft - the engine, which takes thirty years to build from scratch. Therefore, the Turks are actively cooperating in this regard with the Swedish Saab, considering the possibility of joining the South Korean or Brazilian program to create a new generation fighter.

    However, all this is still just talk, the very meaningless reasoning about intentions. After all, Turkey has not yet made a final decision on the purchase of Russian Su-35 and Su-57, and with a high degree of probability it can abandon these fighters in order to maintain relations with NATO. Washington will also make efforts to impose its own F-35 or some kind of European aircraft on Ankara. In other words, the Turkish Foreign Ministry is making statements that are of little meaning from the point of view of real decisions - it only maintains the correct foreign policy balance. He teases both Moscow and Washington - and monitors their reaction.

    "Erdogan is trying to play in a multi-vector approach," Americanist Dmitry Drobnitsky explains to the VZGLYAD newspaper the political background of the plot. And it is not at all a fact that following the purchase of Russian S-400 systems, Turkey will decide to further aggravate relations with Washington by purchasing Russian fighters.

    Text: Victor Sokirko

    https://m.vz.ru/world/2021/3/12/1089008.html


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    Post  Kiko Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm

    Russia will help Turkey create a fifth generation fighter, by Elena Miroshnichenko for VZGLYAD. 18.08.2021.

    Russia and Turkey are holding consultations on a program to create the latest Turkish 5th generation fighter, in addition, the Su-35 is a potential product for promotion in Turkey, said the head of the Rosoboronexport delegation Denis Gizunov at the IDEF 21 international defense industry exhibition in Istanbul.

    “We are holding certain consultations with Turkey regarding their TF-X program (the program for the creation of the newest Turkish fighter of the 5th generation) in order to assist the Turkish side. Moreover, we are ready for a broader dialogue. Of course, the Su-35 is a potential product for the promotion of their Turkey, but the Turkish side has not fully decided which aircraft to tie to the cooperation program. But we are ready for such a development of cooperation. In any case, the promotion of not only air defense technology, but, of course, aircraft and helicopter products in our country is additional for the Turkish direction, ” TASS quoted him as saying.

    Earlier it was reported that Rosoboronexport (part of the Rostec state corporation) will present new Russian military products: the fifth generation Su-57E fighter and the Orion-E unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) at the IDEF arms exhibition in Istanbul, Turkey.

    The fifth-generation Turkish fighter TF-X (Turkish Fighter - X) is presented to the public for the first time at the 53rd Paris Aviation and Space Salon in Le Bourget. The developers said that the creation of the aircraft is entering an active phase.

    Turkey has been developing a promising fighter or "national combat aircraft" since 2011. It is supposed to replace the obsolete F-16 fighters in service with the Turkish Air Force, which are assembled in Ankara under license from the American corporation Lockheed Martin.

    Recall, together with other NATO countries, Turkey participates in financing the production of the American military aircraft F-35, which has become one of the most expensive in history. According to experts, the F-35 has flaws, because of which it will never be able to win a battle with the Russian Su-35 fighter.

    https://m.vz.ru/news/2021/8/18/1114397.html
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    Post  Kiko Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:47 pm

    Turkey is actively working with BAE Systems on TF-X fighter, so any assistance that Russia could provide is most 'helpful'.

    Russia, Turkey holding consultations on creating TF-X fifth-generation fighter, 25/08/2021.

    TF-X is the project for a fifth-generation fighter that the Turkish aerospace company TAI is developing to replace US F-16 aircraft.

    KUBINKA /Moscow Region/, August 25. /TASS/. Russia and Turkey are holding consultations among specialized groups on interaction in creating the Turkish TF-X fifth-generation fighter, Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev told a briefing on Wednesday.

    "At this stage, consultations are underway with the Turkish side at the level of specialized groups on the issues of interaction in creating the Turkish national fighter," Russia’s military cooperation chief said.

    The TF-X (Turkish Fighter-Experimental) program envisages some promising areas, Shugayev said.

    "In this regard, there are interesting areas where we could render technological assistance, considering the experience that our specialists possess in developing and manufacturing aircraft. And we are ready to share our expertise with our Turkish partners. But it is premature to talk about any specific details at this stage," he added.

    TF-X is the project for a fifth-generation fighter that the Turkish aerospace company TAI is developing to replace US F-16 aircraft.

    https://tass.com/defense/1330083
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:26 pm

    Well technically Russia helped the US with the F-35 programme by selling to them technology for the vectored thrust main jet engine... so it is not impossible...

    Considering the current situation I would wonder if a Checkmate aircraft design with Turkish systems replacing Russian systems... but if it uses a British engine or European radar I can't see it being very long before sanctions destroy the cooperation...
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    Post  Broski Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Considering the current situation I would wonder if a Checkmate aircraft design with Turkish systems replacing Russian systems... but if it uses a British engine or European radar I can't see it being very long before sanctions destroy the cooperation...
    The US will definitely sanction any NATO allies cooperating with the TF-X program if Russia is involved, but how does that hurt Russia? lol!
    "Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad"
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:05 am

    The US will definitely sanction any NATO allies cooperating with the TF-X program if Russia is involved, but how does that hurt Russia?

    Which would immediately kill any British cooperation and Turkey and France don't seem to be buddies either, so that means Russian engines... which is not a bad thing.

    It is not just a question of can they do it... the real question is is there a need for enough aircraft to make the costs of developing your own aircraft actually worth it...

    Adding Russia to the development team means everything they need 5th gen is possible if it is cleared for export, but it effects the potential customer base.

    Not having Russia as part of the time greatly increases risk... so you could have BAe engines... but wouldn't BAe be working on the Tempest too?

    How much funding can Turkey put in and if Russia is involved I suspect the British will withdraw and focus on their Tempest programme...

    Too many questions... and the final answer might be Turkey buying Su-35s and Checkmates to replace F-16s and F-35s that they wont be getting...

    But that depends on who is paying for the Checkmate programme...
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    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Can’t see if this has been reported here before? Interesting if it happens.

    Post  Finty Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:08 pm

    Can’t see if this has been reported here before? Interesting if it happens.

    https://eurasiantimes.com/turkey-russian-su-35-su-57-jets-if-us-denies-f-16/?amp
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    Post  Broski Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:15 pm

    Finty wrote:Can’t see if this has been reported here before? Interesting if it happens.

    https://eurasiantimes.com/turkey-russian-su-35-su-57-jets-if-us-denies-f-16/?amp
    Gotta laugh at turkey begging the united states for F-16's. I mean, I get that the US has kept several billion dollars of their money from the F-35 program that they have to get back, somehow, someway... but the irony isn't lost on me either way.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:39 am

    There is a saying... treat em mean... keep em keen... it sounds awful and disrespectful... but it seems to work... some women have low self esteem and don't think they deserve to be treated well and with respect.

    Possibly related to Stockholm syndrome with a victim mentality...

    Of course the way the F-35 is going a lot of F-16 users might want to keep them a bit longer as an affordable fighter they can use to do many tasks that don't require an F-35 for.

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    Post  Kiko Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:38 pm

    Russia Might Help Turkey to Create Fifth-Generation Fighter Jet, 14/11/2021.

    DUBAI (Sputnik) - Moscow is in talks with Ankara about assistance in developing a fifth-generation fighter aircraft, Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Director Dmitry Shugayev told Sputnik on Sunday.

    "Russia has repeatedly expressed readiness to render assistance to the Republic of Turkey [in developing a fifth-generation fighter aircraft], and now we are negotiating this project," Shugayev said at the Dubai Airshow exhibition.

    In October, Ankara said that the US offered Turkey to purchase F-16 jets after it was excluded from the F-35 supply program.

    In April, the United States reportedly sent an official notification to Turkey about its exclusion from the production program of the latest F-35 fighter jets due to Ankara's purchase of the Russian S-400 air defence system.

    Meanwhile, Alexander Mikheev, the director general of Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, has said that Russia and Turkey have yet to sign the contract for supplies of the second division of S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile systems, but defense industry cooperation with Ankara is developing. He noted that Rosoboronexport implemented the first contract for supplies of the S-400s without any complaints from Turkey.

    https://sputniknews.com/20211114/russia-might-help-turkey-to-create-5th-generation-fighter-jet---defence-cooperation-body-1090721092.html

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    Post  Kiko Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:50 pm

    Russia in talks with NATO's Turkey about designing fifth generation fighter jet, 14/11/2021.

    Moscow is ready to help NATO-member Turkey develop its newest fighter jet, a leading Russian defense official revealed, on Sunday. Ankara has previously indicated it was open to cooperating on the matter with friendly countries.

    “Russia has repeatedly expressed readiness to assist Turkey [in the development of a fifth-generation fighter jet], but right now this project is in the negotiation phase,” the head of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC), Dmitry Shugayev, told RIA Novosti.

    Ismail Demir, the chairman of the Presidency of Defense Industries, a Turkish government agency, told the media in September that Ankara was looking to cooperate with friendly states on the design of such an aircraft.

    The US expelled Turkey from its F-35 program in 2019, canceling the delivery of jets promised to Ankara after it rejected America’s demand to scrap the deal to purchase S-400 mobile air defense missile systems from Russia.

    Turkey has maintained that it will choose arms sales partners regardless of outside pressure and in spite of its membership of the US-led NATO military bloc.

    In 2019, Russian President Vladimir Putin showed the fifth-generation multi-purpose Su-57 stealth fighter to his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who was touring an air show near Moscow.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/540238-russia-turkey-5gen-plane/

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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:51 am

    My understanding is that the F-16 deal with the US is a way for Turkey to get something in return for the money they spent on the F-35 programme which the US is refusing to refund.

    In which case I would think Turkey would want those F-16s delivered before further risking ties with the US developing a 5th gen fighter with Turkey.

    Of course Turkey should be telling the US that the US broke that contract and they should either hand over the jets (F-35) or compensation (F-16) or the cash, or US bases in Turkey will be re evaluated and charged for at a much higher rate.... or closed.
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    Post  Kiko Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:47 am

    Turkey, Russia cooperating on development of Turkish fighter jet - Turkish official, 05.12.2021.

    Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said in August that Russia and Turkey were in consultations on issues of cooperation in the area of the development of Turkey’s TF-X fighter jet.

    ANKARA, December 5. /TASS/. Turkey and Russia are cooperating in the defense sphere, including on the development of Turkey’s TF-X fighter jet, Head of Turkey’s Defense Industry Ismail Demir said on Sunday.

    "There are many provisions on cooperation in our talks with Russia. They include issues linked with the development of [Turkey’s] national warplanes [TF-X]. Since the TF-X national jet will leave the airplane shed in 2023, there is a type of engine we have chosen and there are certain systems. But it will undergo phased process of replacement, development, modernization and localization of certain systems with time. During this process, talks may be held with the Russian side about concrete localization systems. Today, we are not discussing such a wide range of details," he said in an interview with the Milliyet newspaper.

    Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said in August that Russia and Turkey were in consultations on issues of cooperation in the area of the development of Turkey’s TF-X fighter jet.

    Turkey has been working on the projects of its national fighter jet since 2016. British BAE Systems is also taking part. Works on TF-X were held concurrently with Turkey’s participation in the F-35 fighter jet program. The country was supposed to receive around a hundred of such jets but the United States excluded Turkey from the program following Turkey’s purchase of Russian S-400 missile defense systems.

    https://tass.com/world/1371015

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    Post  Kiko Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:18 pm

    NATO Has Never Met Turkiye’s Security Needs and Russia's Su-35 is Option for Ankara, Journo Says, by Ekaterina Blinova for SputnikNews. 03.06.2023.

    Given that the US Congress, the Pentagon and CENTCOM are up in arms about Turkiye’s objections to Washington's policies in the last 20 years, it is very unlikely that Ankara will get their F-16 jets, which makes Russia's Su-35 an option, Dr. Ali Demirdas, a political analyst and contributor to The National Interest, told Sputnik.

    Even though US Secretary of State Antony Blinken earlier insisted that selling F-16 jets to Turkiye is a “national and security interest” for the Biden administration, Washington has postponed the deal, prompting Ankara to announce that it may acquire more modern and less expensive fighter jets.

    "There is a tremendous amount of anti-Turkish sentiment in US Congress, particularly among the Armenian and Greek lobbies that has caused the bilateral relations to sour," said Dr. Ali Demirdas. "Added to this front are the pro-PKK [Kurdistan Workers' Party, outlawed in Turkiye – Sputnik] and Indian lobbies. It is almost 100% that Congress will not change this negative sentiment towards Turkiye. Not only that, the Pentagon, particularly CENTCOM, is fiercely averse to Turkiye’s objections to US policies in the last 20 years (from the rejection of March 1, 2003 motion to S-400s and Turkiye’s YPG [People's Protection Units] policies). All these combined, it’s very unlikely that Ankara gets the jets. I believe the Russian Su-35 is an option."

    Despite being one of the oldest NATO member states, Turkiye has been increasingly at odds with NATO over the past several years. Ankara has repeatedly opposed Washington's arming of the Kurdish-dominated People's Protection Units (YPG) in Syria, seeing the YPG as an affiliate of PKK.

    The Turkish leadership is also suspicious about the US' growing closeness with Greece. Turkiye's decision to acquire the Russian-made S-400 missile defense systems in December 2017 led to Ankara's removal from the US-led F-35 fighter jet program in 2019 - even though the Middle Eastern nation invested $1.4 billion (TL 24.2 billion) in it. Washington also froze the sale of F-16 fighters to Turkiye. For its part, the Turkish Presidency of Defense Industries did not rule out in October 2021 that it would reverse the deal with the US and buy Russia's Su-35 and Su-57 fighters instead.

    "US policies in Iraq and Syria have always undermined Turkiye’s national security. Under President Erdogan, Turkiye has been able to defy these policies, which in fact resulted in the 15 July [2016] coup attempt by Washington," Demirdas noted. "NATO has never met Turkiye’s security needs. Due to USA recklessness in the Middle East, Turkiye has suffered greatly and saw little to no help from NATO. This prompted Turkiye’s rapprochement with Russia. The only reason Turkiye is staying in NATO is to prevent other members from taking action against it. The moment Turkiye leaves NATO, southern Cyprus and Israel will become members, surrounding Turkiye. On the other hand, Turkiye is a serious military power NATO wouldn’t want to lose."

    The forthcoming general elections in Turkiye, scheduled for May, could significantly change the balance of power in the region in case Recep Tayyip Erdogan is defeated. Turkiye's opposition coalition is presented by six parties which are attempting to agree on a candidate to challenge the incumbent president.

    "Everyone in Washington and Brussels is waiting for the May elections in Turkiye. If Erdogan wins, which I believe is very likely, the US-Turkiye rupture will likely get deeper. I have always said that the US is losing Turkiye the way it lost Iran, which was one of its greatest allies in the 60s and 70s," Demirdas concluded.

    https://sputniknews.com/20230306/nato-has-never-met-turkiyes-security-needs-and-russias-su-35-is-option-for-ankara-journo-says-1108095634.html

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    Post  lancelot Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:04 pm

    I think this is highly unlikely now that Turkiye has its own stealth fighter program. They are building the first prototype right now.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:17 pm

    They gotta get their building code upgraded before touching jets
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:53 am

    I have always said that the US is losing Turkiye the way it lost Iran, which was one of its greatest allies in the 60s and 70s," Demirdas concluded.

    The issue is that the west are arrogant colonial white assholes... the US did lose Iran and is losing Turkey, just the way it lost Russia by abusing what could have been their most powerful ally... cooperation with could have saved their economy... the US getting cheap energy instead of the EU and things might have been very different... but that ship has sailed...

    I think this is highly unlikely now that Turkiye has its own stealth fighter program. They are building the first prototype right now.

    They are talking about cooperation with Russia which is likely to cause the British to pull out... but then they have their own Tempest anyway so them pulling out was likely unless the plane turned out to be a dog and of no competition then they would stay loyal and sell some very expensive engines for it...

    I five years time Turkey might look at the Checkmate and think perhaps buying that instead would be a cheaper option with better results, but their problem right now is their fleet of F-16s. I would say a joint venture with Turkey... an Su-30MKT with a mix of Russian and Turkish components, or if they want a single seat aircraft they could go for Su-35MKT, again with Turkish and Russian parts... even if the Russians doubled the fly away price they would still be cheaper than the F-16s.

    The US might offer to refund their money to take those F-16s back but they would likely just send them to Poland or other European countries who would likely donate them to Kiev because they need upgrades and overhauls...

    They gotta get their building code upgraded before touching jets

    Buildings in the US have collapsed after having been made in the 1970s out of concrete without earthquakes being involved.

    The size of those earthquakes in Turkey and Syria and the shallowness of them so close to the surface... no western country would have done any better in regards to structural damage... except possibly Japan.

    With those sized earthquakes that close to the surface and buildings are going to fall down and there is nothing you can do about that.

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:02 am

    I think this is highly unlikely now that Turkiye has its own stealth fighter program. They are building the first prototype right now.

    You mean like the Bayraktar drone with its Canadian engines, Israeli electronics and so on?
    Parts that they've already gotten threatened to be cut-off from?

    Turkey is not going to have a competitive indigenous multi-role fighter any time soon. In practice only the US, Russia, China, and the EU are capable of producing one independently.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:26 am

    Chile has shrugged off 8+ magnitude earthquakes, with limited casualties

    Why?

    Building code
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:52 am

    No they will not buy Russian fighters. They will cling to their indigenous fighter programs till they are sanctioned and regime changed for the gall of trying to go their own way. Try talking to turks sometime they see their fighter program as THE symbol of their independence. Thry genuinely think the west will supply all the engines and tech they cannot provide for themselves while also giving the geopolitical middle finger to the west.

    They are deluded, but they will NOT let go of the fighter program. It is intricately tied to their turkish empire nonsense. The sad thing is they are blind to past of present or future, forgetting a few years back that western leaders tried to coup Erdogan with help from inside. Putin saved his goofy ass. I suggest going over to secretprojectsuk and going to the turkish fifth gen fighter page. A select couple of people spam that thread daily.

    And yeah I got an attitude problem with the obnoxious turks. Fork tongued and two faced and they think they are freaking China or something. Obnoxious. And oh ffs I remember having to debate idiots that thought their RC planes were literal wonder weapons.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:34 pm

    Turkey is not going to have a competitive indigenous multi-role fighter any time soon. In practice only the US, Russia, China, and the EU are capable of producing one independently.
    It is not just the Turks. The South Koreans also have a program to make their own stealth fighter.
    And yes both will have to use imported engines.

    The Japanese also have the technology to make their own stealth fighter if they want to. Engines and everything.
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:01 pm

    You have to admire the ambition but its futile.

    As long as these countries are firmly embedded within the NATO technology ecosystem their stealth programs literally exist at the mercy of the US.

    One way or another the US will find a way to screw their shit over and then they will be back cap in hand to order F-35s. Razz

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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:56 pm

    If Russia plays its cards right and Turkey does develop a 5th gen plane if the west cuts them off from engines and avionics the Russians could step in and help Turkey complete their fighter...

    Or if it fails the Checkmate will be a fraction of the price of the F-35 and if Turkey joins the programme they could be making parts for it too... like they were going to do with the F-35 programme.

    Chile has shrugged off 8+ magnitude earthquakes, with limited casualties

    Why?

    Building code

    We had two major earthquakes this century in New Zealand... both near Christchurch... the first happened at about 2am and no deaths. The second happened mid afternoon and killed 200 people, which is four times more than deranged Aussie immigrants killed in the same city...

    Death tolls vary for a lot of reasons... including location and depth and time of day... but also the number of floors for each building... the first earthquake in CHCH didn't kill anyone because everyone was at home and most homes in NZ are one or two story dwellings, while earthquakes during business hours means lots of people in large multi story buildings that tend to collapse in serious earthquakes and kill people.
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    Post  Kiko Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:48 pm

    Blackmail: U.S. will only sell F - 16 fighter jets if Turkey supports NATO expansion: analyst, by Ana Lívia Esteves for SputnikNews.Brasil. 03.08.2023.

    The United States is conditioning the sale of F-16 fighter jets on Turkey's support for Finland and Sweden's entry into NATO, a Turkish political analyst told Sputnik. By selling more Moderna F-35 fighters to rival Greece, the U.S. wants to ensure Athens' air superiority against Ankara.

    On Tuesday, Turkish presidential foreign policy and security adviser Cagri Erhan told Sputnik that Turkey should reconsider buying US F-16 fighter jets because of their high price.

    "I believe that after the earthquakes, Turkey will give up ordering F-16s because of the$ 20 billion cost of the package," Erhan told Sputnik.

    By 2021, Turkey had officially requested the US to purchase 40 new fighters and parts to modernize its already operational F-16s.

    The Turkish Air Force operates the world's third-largest fleet of F-16s, with 79 units, and is particularly dependent on U.S. technology.

    Despite its position as a loyal customer, Turkey was banned by the US from buying fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters in April 2021 after Ankara acquired Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems. After the punishment, Washington offered its NATO ally the supply of the F-16 fighters, a generation earlier than the F-35.

    According to presidential adviser Erhan, the Turkish Air Force should diversify its purchases, looking for suppliers in China, Russia and Europe.

    "Turkey should immediately take the decision to change its decision to buy F-16s to some other," Erhan told Sputnik. "We have other options, like the Chinese jet that was sold to Pakistan,the Russian jets and also the Eurofighter jet."

    According to Forbes magazine, Turkey has begun negotiations with the United Kingdom to discuss the possible purchase of 24-48 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters.

    With presidential elections scheduled for May 4, Erdogan's government would have little to lose if it acquired new fighters for its Air Force, Turkish political analyst Umit Nazmi Hazir believes.

    "If the fighters are acquired, there would be no negative impact on public opinion," Hazir told Sputnik Brasil. "Because of concerns about their security, Turkish society is not opposed to military spending."

    Bargain for Finland and Sweden in NATO?

    Turkey's hesitation to buy U.S. F-16s is also motivated by opposition from U.S. congressmen, who published a letter opposing the sale of the fighters on Feb.2.

    In the text, senators argue that the sale should only be carried out if Ankara approves the entry of Finland and Sweden into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The Turkish government imposed obstacles to the expansion of the alliance, due to the political and military support granted by Stockholm and Helsinki to Kurdish movements.

    "We wrote out of concern for [...] the continued postponement of ratification of the ascension protocols of Sweden and Finland," the US senators allege. "Congress cannot consider future support for Turkey, including the sale of F-16 fighter jets, until Turkey completes ratification of the protocols."

    The letter was signed by 29 senators of both US parties, which represents a third of the house, as reported by the portal Fight Global. Among them are influential lawmakers such as Democrat Bob Menendez, chairman of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

    "Many US senators oppose the sale of F-16s to Turkey. But on the other hand, the Biden administration is sympathetic to the sale of these fighters to Ankara," Hazir said.

    Under U.S. law, the sale of high-tech military equipment requires approval from Congress and the State Department.

    Rivalry with Greece

    At the end of February, secretary of State Antony Blinken recalled the need for congressional support for the sale of F-16s, saying that concerns not only about NATO expansion, but also about Greece, should be addressed with the Turks.

    Greece and Turkey have turbulent relations, due to territorial disputes in the Aegean Sea and on the island of Cyprus.

    "The Greek issue directly influences [the purchase of the F-16 fighters]," Hazir said. "Greece is against the sale of F-16s to Ankara and tries to take advantage of the problems between the US and Turkey."

    According to him, the United States sells F-35 fighters to Greece, while offering Turkey only F-16s, which would be a diplomatic victory for Athens.

    "This was a shift in U.S. foreign policy regarding the Greek-Turkish issue," Hazir explained. "The U.S. has traditionally pursued a policy of balance between Turkey and Greece."

    The Turkish political analyst reports that Washington sought to ensure that neither Ankara nor Athens would have air superiority over the other.

    "However, in recent years, the U.S. is intent on shifting the balance of air supremacy in favor of Athens," Hazir concluded.

    Since 2019, negotiations between Ankara and Washington for the purchase and modernization of fighters have faced political difficulties. In April 2021, the US prevented Turkey from buying F-35 fighters, due to Ankara's acquisition of Russian anti-aircraft missile systems. The offer of lower-generation F-16 fighter jets is opposed by senators in the US Congress.

    Yandex Translate from Portuguese

    https://sputniknewsbrasil.com.br/20230308/chantagem-eua-so-venderao-cacas-f-16-se-turquia-apoiar-expansao-da-otan-diz-analista--27976761.html

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