Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


4 posters

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Kiko
    Kiko


    Posts : 932
    Points : 950
    Join date : 2020-11-11
    Age : 72
    Location : Brasilia

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Kiko Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:29 pm

    12 MAR, 11:44
    Russia ready for talks with Turkey on Su-35, Su-57 fighters

    Russia earlier noted its readiness to participate in the program of developing the Turkish TF-X fifth-generation fighter.

    MOSCOW, March 12. /TASS/. Russia is ready for holding negotiations with Turkey on the possible delivery of Su-35 and Su-57 fighter aircraft, if it receives the corresponding request, Spokesperson for Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Valeria Reshetnikova said on Friday.

    "As for Ankara’s potential plans of purchasing Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters, it should be noted that the Turkish side has been informed about their technical specifications in full. If there is a request from Turkey for these planes, we are ready for negotiations on this issue," the spokesperson said.

    Russia earlier noted its readiness to participate in the program of developing the Turkish TF-X fifth-generation fighter, the spokesperson said.

    "The Turkish side has for quite long stated its intention to implement the project of developing its own TF-X fifth-generation fighter. Russia earlier indicated that it was ready to consider the possibility of cooperation under this program. However, we have not received the corresponding request from Ankara so far," Reshetnikova added.

    https://tass.com/defense/1265467
    Kiko
    Kiko


    Posts : 932
    Points : 950
    Join date : 2020-11-11
    Age : 72
    Location : Brasilia

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Kiko Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:55 am

    Su-57 became a reason for Turkey to tease Moscow and Washington
    March 12, 2021

    Will Turkey get access to Russia's most important military-technical secrets? And why is Ankara teasing Moscow at all with the possibility of concluding a new and very expensive contract for the purchase of military equipment? All these questions arose after another statement by Turkey regarding the procurement of Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters.

    "If Russia has an aircraft that meets our current needs ... then, of course, we can buy it," said Turkish Minister of Industry and Technology Mustafa Varank. The minister's words came in response to further suggestions that his country needs modern fighters (for example, Russian Su-35 or Su-57).

    However, does Ankara really need Russian military aircraft?

    To date, Turkey has independently produced and continues to produce licensed fighters of American origin from the F-16 family in the F-16C Block 30, F-16 Block 50+, F-16D Block 30, F-16D Block 50 and F-16 Block50 + modifications. There are about 260 such multipurpose fighters in the Turkish Air Force, which bear the “Made in Turkey” brand. Turkey also produced light military transport aircraft Tusas CN-235 M - licensed Spanish CASA CN-235.

    Turkey has gained experience from participating in the F-35 production program, in which it has been involved since 2002. The Turkish industry produced about seven percent of the parts for the new fighter.

    Turkey, which planned to purchase 100 of these newest fighters, was one of the largest customers along with Great Britain and Australia, counted on its own production, but was refused by the United States. Now F-35s outside the United States are produced only in Italy, it is planned to open an assembly line for these fighters in Japan by Mitsubishi (38 units).

    Instability in US-Turkish relations and Europe's desire to limit Turkey's growing independence in the international political arena played a role in Washington's decision. And when Ankara “kicked up” and abandoned the far imperfect and expensive American Patriots in favor of the Russian S-400s, they shook a finger from Washington: they say, they won't get the F-35 now. Turkey retorted in response: “What, there are no other worthy planes? We will buy Russian Su-57s".

    Now the topic of Ankara's purchases of Russian fighters has again become a priority. However, one should not harbor any special illusions about the successful deal between Moscow and Ankara. In fact, having announced a tender for the purchase of foreign fighter aircraft, Turkey gives priority to the creation of its own fifth generation fighter. We are talking about the promising TF-X (Turkish Fighter-Experimental) aircraft, which so far exists only in a full-size layout, and the first flight, scheduled for 2023, has smoothly flowed into 2025. That is, it will appear in the country's air force in ten years at best.

    And yet, on only one F-16, even modernized and improved, Turkey is unlikely to maintain dominance in the region.

    Therefore, quite predictably, Ankara is looking for a replacement to update its combat aircraft fleet - and here the option with the acquisition of the Russian Su-35, and possibly the Su-57, seems to be the most profitable acquisition.

    Indeed, according to a number of independent assessments, the Russian fighter is no worse than its American competitor, while significantly cheaper. He, however, has a significant drawback precisely from the point of view of the world arms market. Foreign buyers prefer to buy equipment that has already been mastered in large quantities by the manufacturing country, run-in, and cured of childhood diseases. In this sense, the American car wins - for all its shortcomings, the F-35 has long been accepted into service, dozens of these machines fly in the troops not only of the United States, but also of a number of its allied countries. While the Su-57 in the Russian Air Force is still only in a single copy.

    “Turkey is now more interested in purchasing Russian fighters,” military aviation expert Colonel Alexander Drobyshevsky told the VZGLYAD newspaper. - There is both a political and an economic nuance here. The Turkish president is a cunning fox, and with such a step he will kick the American administration, as he did with the purchase of the S-400. This is such a "response" for the lost production of the F-35.

    In the event of such a deal, Russia will receive a very lucrative order not only in economic terms, but also a certain influence on Ankara. The acquisition of Russian fighters is also the subsequent training of pilots and technical personnel, repair work, supply of spare parts, and aircraft repair work. These are inevitable contacts and emerging connections".

    However, if Turkey nevertheless makes such a decision, it will not be easy to implement, primarily from a technical point of view. “The Turkish Air Force makes extensive use of American F-16 fighters and closely cooperates with the United States in the field of personnel training. Turkey will need a serious reform, the question will arise about America's willingness to provide the F-16 with spare parts. But if Ankara actually decides to move away from such close cooperation with the United States, it will definitely need sophisticated military equipment from other suppliers - it is impossible to purchase American weapons and conduct a foreign policy independent of the United States, ”Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told VZGLYAD newspaper ...

    As for the question that, they say, we are equipping the NATO country with our advanced technologies in the field of combat aviation, there should not be any particular worries here either.

    If it really comes to the conclusion and implementation of contracts, then the planes will be exported in the standard configuration, that is, the glider itself and avionics, without the latest equipment and weapons. And if, say, half of the world is armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles, this does not undermine our defenses. So it is with fighters, the value of which lies precisely in weapons that remain secret and can be used by Russian pilots.

    "The preparation of the export passport is controlled by the structure of the Ministry of Defense - the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation," says the editor-in-chief of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" Viktor Murakhovsky. - Without a visa from the defense department, no product will go abroad in a configuration that poses a threat to Russia's national security. This also applies to the Su-35 and Su-57 fighters. Nobody will know the secrets and peculiarities of our aircraft".

    There are, of course, nuances with Turkey. Its already mentioned membership in NATO, though not the biggest, is still an obstacle. Ankara is unlikely to want to purchase a simplified (export) version of the Su-35 or Su-57, but will demand that everything be on "full stuffing". Again, it is unprofitable for the Turks to depend on Russia for the supply of spare parts, so they will want, albeit partially, but to establish the production of these fighters on their territory.

    Moreover, it is likely that Turkey will want to get the opportunity to produce the licensed Su-57 itself, a kind of version of its Turkish-57. At the same time, it will most likely require a Russian loan for this production, which is not very profitable for Russia itself, it itself needs funds for the serial production of the fighter.

    Turkey has a big problem with a key component of the aircraft - the engine, which takes thirty years to build from scratch. Therefore, the Turks are actively cooperating in this regard with the Swedish Saab, considering the possibility of joining the South Korean or Brazilian program to create a new generation fighter.

    However, all this is still just talk, the very meaningless reasoning about intentions. After all, Turkey has not yet made a final decision on the purchase of Russian Su-35 and Su-57, and with a high degree of probability it can abandon these fighters in order to maintain relations with NATO. Washington will also make efforts to impose its own F-35 or some kind of European aircraft on Ankara. In other words, the Turkish Foreign Ministry is making statements that are of little meaning from the point of view of real decisions - it only maintains the correct foreign policy balance. He teases both Moscow and Washington - and monitors their reaction.

    "Erdogan is trying to play in a multi-vector approach," Americanist Dmitry Drobnitsky explains to the VZGLYAD newspaper the political background of the plot. And it is not at all a fact that following the purchase of Russian S-400 systems, Turkey will decide to further aggravate relations with Washington by purchasing Russian fighters.

    Text: Victor Sokirko

    https://m.vz.ru/world/2021/3/12/1089008.html


    GarryB likes this post

    Kiko
    Kiko


    Posts : 932
    Points : 950
    Join date : 2020-11-11
    Age : 72
    Location : Brasilia

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Kiko Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm

    Russia will help Turkey create a fifth generation fighter, by Elena Miroshnichenko for VZGLYAD. 18.08.2021.

    Russia and Turkey are holding consultations on a program to create the latest Turkish 5th generation fighter, in addition, the Su-35 is a potential product for promotion in Turkey, said the head of the Rosoboronexport delegation Denis Gizunov at the IDEF 21 international defense industry exhibition in Istanbul.

    “We are holding certain consultations with Turkey regarding their TF-X program (the program for the creation of the newest Turkish fighter of the 5th generation) in order to assist the Turkish side. Moreover, we are ready for a broader dialogue. Of course, the Su-35 is a potential product for the promotion of their Turkey, but the Turkish side has not fully decided which aircraft to tie to the cooperation program. But we are ready for such a development of cooperation. In any case, the promotion of not only air defense technology, but, of course, aircraft and helicopter products in our country is additional for the Turkish direction, ” TASS quoted him as saying.

    Earlier it was reported that Rosoboronexport (part of the Rostec state corporation) will present new Russian military products: the fifth generation Su-57E fighter and the Orion-E unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) at the IDEF arms exhibition in Istanbul, Turkey.

    The fifth-generation Turkish fighter TF-X (Turkish Fighter - X) is presented to the public for the first time at the 53rd Paris Aviation and Space Salon in Le Bourget. The developers said that the creation of the aircraft is entering an active phase.

    Turkey has been developing a promising fighter or "national combat aircraft" since 2011. It is supposed to replace the obsolete F-16 fighters in service with the Turkish Air Force, which are assembled in Ankara under license from the American corporation Lockheed Martin.

    Recall, together with other NATO countries, Turkey participates in financing the production of the American military aircraft F-35, which has become one of the most expensive in history. According to experts, the F-35 has flaws, because of which it will never be able to win a battle with the Russian Su-35 fighter.

    https://m.vz.ru/news/2021/8/18/1114397.html
    Kiko
    Kiko


    Posts : 932
    Points : 950
    Join date : 2020-11-11
    Age : 72
    Location : Brasilia

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Kiko Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:47 pm

    Turkey is actively working with BAE Systems on TF-X fighter, so any assistance that Russia could provide is most 'helpful'.

    Russia, Turkey holding consultations on creating TF-X fifth-generation fighter, 25/08/2021.

    TF-X is the project for a fifth-generation fighter that the Turkish aerospace company TAI is developing to replace US F-16 aircraft.

    KUBINKA /Moscow Region/, August 25. /TASS/. Russia and Turkey are holding consultations among specialized groups on interaction in creating the Turkish TF-X fifth-generation fighter, Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev told a briefing on Wednesday.

    "At this stage, consultations are underway with the Turkish side at the level of specialized groups on the issues of interaction in creating the Turkish national fighter," Russia’s military cooperation chief said.

    The TF-X (Turkish Fighter-Experimental) program envisages some promising areas, Shugayev said.

    "In this regard, there are interesting areas where we could render technological assistance, considering the experience that our specialists possess in developing and manufacturing aircraft. And we are ready to share our expertise with our Turkish partners. But it is premature to talk about any specific details at this stage," he added.

    TF-X is the project for a fifth-generation fighter that the Turkish aerospace company TAI is developing to replace US F-16 aircraft.

    https://tass.com/defense/1330083
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31517
    Points : 32047
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:26 pm

    Well technically Russia helped the US with the F-35 programme by selling to them technology for the vectored thrust main jet engine... so it is not impossible...

    Considering the current situation I would wonder if a Checkmate aircraft design with Turkish systems replacing Russian systems... but if it uses a British engine or European radar I can't see it being very long before sanctions destroy the cooperation...
    Broski
    Broski


    Posts : 119
    Points : 121
    Join date : 2021-07-12

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Broski Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Considering the current situation I would wonder if a Checkmate aircraft design with Turkish systems replacing Russian systems... but if it uses a British engine or European radar I can't see it being very long before sanctions destroy the cooperation...
    The US will definitely sanction any NATO allies cooperating with the TF-X program if Russia is involved, but how does that hurt Russia? lol!
    "Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad"
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31517
    Points : 32047
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:05 am

    The US will definitely sanction any NATO allies cooperating with the TF-X program if Russia is involved, but how does that hurt Russia?

    Which would immediately kill any British cooperation and Turkey and France don't seem to be buddies either, so that means Russian engines... which is not a bad thing.

    It is not just a question of can they do it... the real question is is there a need for enough aircraft to make the costs of developing your own aircraft actually worth it...

    Adding Russia to the development team means everything they need 5th gen is possible if it is cleared for export, but it effects the potential customer base.

    Not having Russia as part of the time greatly increases risk... so you could have BAe engines... but wouldn't BAe be working on the Tempest too?

    How much funding can Turkey put in and if Russia is involved I suspect the British will withdraw and focus on their Tempest programme...

    Too many questions... and the final answer might be Turkey buying Su-35s and Checkmates to replace F-16s and F-35s that they wont be getting...

    But that depends on who is paying for the Checkmate programme...
    Finty
    Finty


    Posts : 374
    Points : 378
    Join date : 2021-02-10
    Location : Great Britain

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Can’t see if this has been reported here before? Interesting if it happens.

    Post  Finty Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:08 pm

    Can’t see if this has been reported here before? Interesting if it happens.

    https://eurasiantimes.com/turkey-russian-su-35-su-57-jets-if-us-denies-f-16/?amp
    Broski
    Broski


    Posts : 119
    Points : 121
    Join date : 2021-07-12

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Broski Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:15 pm

    Finty wrote:Can’t see if this has been reported here before? Interesting if it happens.

    https://eurasiantimes.com/turkey-russian-su-35-su-57-jets-if-us-denies-f-16/?amp
    Gotta laugh at turkey begging the united states for F-16's. I mean, I get that the US has kept several billion dollars of their money from the F-35 program that they have to get back, somehow, someway... but the irony isn't lost on me either way.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31517
    Points : 32047
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:39 am

    There is a saying... treat em mean... keep em keen... it sounds awful and disrespectful... but it seems to work... some women have low self esteem and don't think they deserve to be treated well and with respect.

    Possibly related to Stockholm syndrome with a victim mentality...

    Of course the way the F-35 is going a lot of F-16 users might want to keep them a bit longer as an affordable fighter they can use to do many tasks that don't require an F-35 for.

    Broski likes this post

    Kiko
    Kiko


    Posts : 932
    Points : 950
    Join date : 2020-11-11
    Age : 72
    Location : Brasilia

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Kiko Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:38 pm

    Russia Might Help Turkey to Create Fifth-Generation Fighter Jet, 14/11/2021.

    DUBAI (Sputnik) - Moscow is in talks with Ankara about assistance in developing a fifth-generation fighter aircraft, Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Director Dmitry Shugayev told Sputnik on Sunday.

    "Russia has repeatedly expressed readiness to render assistance to the Republic of Turkey [in developing a fifth-generation fighter aircraft], and now we are negotiating this project," Shugayev said at the Dubai Airshow exhibition.

    In October, Ankara said that the US offered Turkey to purchase F-16 jets after it was excluded from the F-35 supply program.

    In April, the United States reportedly sent an official notification to Turkey about its exclusion from the production program of the latest F-35 fighter jets due to Ankara's purchase of the Russian S-400 air defence system.

    Meanwhile, Alexander Mikheev, the director general of Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, has said that Russia and Turkey have yet to sign the contract for supplies of the second division of S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile systems, but defense industry cooperation with Ankara is developing. He noted that Rosoboronexport implemented the first contract for supplies of the S-400s without any complaints from Turkey.

    https://sputniknews.com/20211114/russia-might-help-turkey-to-create-5th-generation-fighter-jet---defence-cooperation-body-1090721092.html
    Kiko
    Kiko


    Posts : 932
    Points : 950
    Join date : 2020-11-11
    Age : 72
    Location : Brasilia

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Kiko Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:50 pm

    Russia in talks with NATO's Turkey about designing fifth generation fighter jet, 14/11/2021.

    Moscow is ready to help NATO-member Turkey develop its newest fighter jet, a leading Russian defense official revealed, on Sunday. Ankara has previously indicated it was open to cooperating on the matter with friendly countries.

    “Russia has repeatedly expressed readiness to assist Turkey [in the development of a fifth-generation fighter jet], but right now this project is in the negotiation phase,” the head of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC), Dmitry Shugayev, told RIA Novosti.

    Ismail Demir, the chairman of the Presidency of Defense Industries, a Turkish government agency, told the media in September that Ankara was looking to cooperate with friendly states on the design of such an aircraft.

    The US expelled Turkey from its F-35 program in 2019, canceling the delivery of jets promised to Ankara after it rejected America’s demand to scrap the deal to purchase S-400 mobile air defense missile systems from Russia.

    Turkey has maintained that it will choose arms sales partners regardless of outside pressure and in spite of its membership of the US-led NATO military bloc.

    In 2019, Russian President Vladimir Putin showed the fifth-generation multi-purpose Su-57 stealth fighter to his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who was touring an air show near Moscow.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/540238-russia-turkey-5gen-plane/

    dino00 and Finty like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31517
    Points : 32047
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:51 am

    My understanding is that the F-16 deal with the US is a way for Turkey to get something in return for the money they spent on the F-35 programme which the US is refusing to refund.

    In which case I would think Turkey would want those F-16s delivered before further risking ties with the US developing a 5th gen fighter with Turkey.

    Of course Turkey should be telling the US that the US broke that contract and they should either hand over the jets (F-35) or compensation (F-16) or the cash, or US bases in Turkey will be re evaluated and charged for at a much higher rate.... or closed.

    Sponsored content


    Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects Empty Re: Russia, Turkey fighter export prospects

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:39 pm