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69 posters

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:18 pm

    The price gap here is mostly due to the new "orudovanije" needed.
    Su-35 can be produced, at least partially, with the production base of older models.
    Su-57 requires a whole new process, with new tools and procedures applied.
    It will depreciate with time and numbers.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:31 am

    Why do you expect the Su-57 to be more expensive than the Su-35?

    Stealth coatings and fastners etc etc all need to be precise for them to work... most of the maintenance costs of the F-35 per flight hour is because the RAM coatings have to be sanded off and tape along the joints removed and discarded and then panels opened and electronics checked and tested and then you put the panel back on and tape up all the joins and then coat the surface with layers of RAM which then needs to cure and set before you can fly the aircraft again.

    With an F-16 you just unscrew the panel, check the bits, replace anything that is faulty and screw the panel back on.

    Fundamentally the stealth plane has as few access panels as possible often making access more difficult and awkward.

    The F-18 in particular was known for lots of nice big access panels and self diagnostic systems that made finding problems much faster and easier.

    The complex and expensive system they were developing for the F-35 was a terrible failure and was never made to work properly so finding problems was much harder than standard aircraft.

    It was a combined maintenance support system that was supposed to find problems in real time and reroute things to backup alternatives to keep everything going while automatically ordering new parts for the needed repairs... but it didn't work and was awful so they stopped trying to use it...

    The Su-57 has a five AESA radars... three in the nose and two in the wings, Su-35 has one large hybrid A/PESA in the nose and two AESA radar antenna in the wings... having 5 full AESA radars costs more.

    Over time the costs would go down but it is still a case of Su-35 being an F-15 and Su-57 being an F-22, but obviously Russian costs have to be a tiny fraction of US costs because Russia simply can't afford US costs... no one can.

    The available numbers don't show it to be that more expensive even in initial production.

    Operational costs of stealth aircraft is higher because of higher tolerances and smaller margins.

    The hydraulics might be more expensive, but they will replace those with electromechanical actuators.

    Replacement of the hydraulics will reduce weight dramatically and improve performance for both aircraft...

    Comparisons with the F-22 are, I think, beyond the point. The F-22 is a maintenance prone aircraft as is the F-35. The Su-57 was designed to require little maintenance.

    I agree they are not directly comparable.... I am not suggesting the Su-35 is 150 million per plane and the Su-57 is probably 400 million per plane (originally about 250 million).

    What I am saying is that operational costs will be higher for the stealthy aircraft even if their purchase price is actually similar.

    The Su-35s costs will be spread across all the Su-35s they buy and the Su-30s they upgrade which is going to be a bigger number than the number of Su-57s they make.

    Down the track a bit I expect them to probably make a naval carrier based version of the Su-57, and possibly a more strike oriented Su-34 like land based version too.... but perhaps the requirement for internal stealthy weapon carriage might mean rather than modifying the Su-57 and perhaps making it bigger for internal carriage of 8-12 ton weapon payloads what they might do is scale down a PAK DA for such a job instead... though perhaps a PAK DA with air to air missiles loaded could just leave internal space for a decent fuel load and perhaps 12 tons of weapons anyway.

    Su-35 when first introduced was pretty expensive. Over time it became cheaper. Same will be with Su-57. Initial pricing for Su-57 I heard is just a bit above Su-35 initial run. So the slight price may be overall worth it.

    Neither will be cheap to operate though... neither is a light low cost fighter.

    The Su-35 should be cheaper to operate but not actually cheap.

    Never trust drones for any form of A-A combat.

    Agree, drones are useful force multipliers but would not expect them to get the job done on their own.

    They are in the position where they have their F-22 and their F-15 in production, and they have their F-16 entering production and more importantly their F-35 can still be designed and made to avoid all the problems and mistakes and stupidity of the US programme of the same name.

    They can move forward in quite a few different ways with export potential for all of these platforms.

    More so because their F-22 seems to be rather good without any obvious serious problems, their F-15 production is the latest model and the best version they have ever produced for anyone, while the F-16 is the same... fully upgraded design using modern construction techniques and materials, they are all at the top of their game and can move forward with a new light fighter F-35 programme that does not need to worry about a stupid VSTOL fighter because it seems pretty clear a 75K ton or heavier carrier is what they want for their future and even without cats their MiG-35s can already get airborne from their current 55K ton carrier so their next gen model with much more installed engine power should be fine without breaking the design with VSTOL BS.

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    Russian_Patriot_
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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 Empty Re: Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:21 am

    The Ministry of Defense and Sukhoi plan to develop a two-seat Su-57 for export

    The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the Sukhoi Design Bureau plan to develop a two-seat version of the fifth-generation Su-57 fighter in the export version. This was announced by Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov to journalists on Wednesday during a working trip to Primorsky Territory.

    "There is interest in this aircraft and, in my opinion, it will increase from year to year, as our Russian army will be saturated with this model. Foreign customers first look at how a particular type of weapon of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation behaves. The plans of the Ministry of Defense and the Sukhoi Design Bureau are to produce a two-pilot cabin, which will expand the export demand for this model <...>, it can create additional demand, " he said.

    As Rosoboronexport CEO Alexander Mikheev reported in early June, five Southeast Asian countries are currently showing interest in the Su-57.

    Source: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11659569

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 Images11

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    Post  lancelot Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:26 am

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:...five Southeast Asian countries are currently showing interest in the Su-57.

    Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, ?
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:09 pm

    The Ministry of Defense will receive four Su-57 aircraft in 2021

    The first Su-57 was transferred to the troops at the end of 2020

    KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, June 16. / TASS /. The Russian Defense Ministry will receive four Su-57 fighters this year. Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told reporters about this during his visit to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant named after Yu.A. Gagarin (KnAAZ).

    In total, the plant will deliver 15 combat aircraft to customers this year.

    "This year: [KnAAZ] is to deliver 15 combat aircraft to the customer under export contracts. As you know, the Defense Ministry has signed a long-term contract for the Su-57, this year the supply of four production aircraft. The production of 4 ++ Su aircraft continues. -35 ", - he said.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11661899

    Laughing

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:28 pm

    Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, ?
    Supposedly it's India. They're fond of two-seat combat aircraft.
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    Post  Lurk83 Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:39 pm

    LMFS wrote:The Ministry of Defense will receive four Su-57 aircraft in 2021

    The first Su-57 was transferred to the troops at the end of 2020

    KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, June 16. / TASS /. The Russian Defense Ministry will receive four Su-57 fighters this year. Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told reporters about this during his visit to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant named after Yu.A. Gagarin (KnAAZ).

    In total, the plant will deliver 15 combat aircraft to customers this year.

    "This year: [KnAAZ] is to deliver 15 combat aircraft to the customer under export contracts. As you know, the Defense Ministry has signed a long-term contract for the Su-57, this year the supply of four production aircraft. The production of 4 ++ Su aircraft continues. -35 ", - he said.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11661899

    Laughing

    Nice. By the end of next year they can have a full training squadron in the air by the end of 2022.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:41 pm

    LMFS wrote:The Ministry of Defense will receive four Su-57 aircraft in 2021

    The first Su-57 was transferred to the troops at the end of 2020

    KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, June 16. / TASS /. The Russian Defense Ministry will receive four Su-57 fighters this year. Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told reporters about this during his visit to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant named after Yu.A. Gagarin (KnAAZ).

    In total, the plant will deliver 15 combat aircraft to customers this year.

    "This year: [KnAAZ] is to deliver 15 combat aircraft to the customer under export contracts. As you know, the Defense Ministry has signed a long-term contract for the Su-57, this year the supply of four production aircraft. The production of 4 ++ Su aircraft continues. -35 ", - he said.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11661899

    Laughing

    How many Su-35's will go to the VKS out of what appears to be 11 produced?

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:20 pm

    franco wrote:How many Su-35's will go to the VKS out of what appears to be 11 produced?

    This is what we have, apparently 7 for the VKS and 8 for export, but Borisov said now it is 15 for export...
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 82861810

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    Post  LMFS Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:45 pm

    Rostec said that the two-seater Su-57 will be the first such aircraft in the world

    The machine can be in demand for training pilots, as well as for performing long-term flights over non-orientated terrain, the state corporation noted.

    MOSCOW, June 16. / TASS /. Rostec confirmed plans to create a two-seat export modification of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter, noting that the Russian aircraft could become the first of its kind in the world.

    "Such a machine can be in demand when training pilots in order to reduce the psychological stress of inexperienced pilots, as well as to perform long flights over non-orientated terrain. Recall that today no country in the world has two-seat fighters of the 5th generation, Sukhoi can become first, "the press service of the Rostec state corporation told reporters on Wednesday.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11662839

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    Russian_Patriot_
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:37 pm

    Rostec said that the two-seater Su-57 will be the first such aircraft in the world
    The Chinese J-20B is also a two seat
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    Post  Backman Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:52 pm

    So we know that they are producing 10+ aircraft for export yet we don't know the customer. The original number for Algeria was 14 so maybe that's it.

    Keeping it secret is a good idea to reduce sanctions risk
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 pm

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:The Ministry of Defense and Sukhoi plan to develop a two-seat Su-57 for export....

    So Su-57 is in production and Su-60 is in the pipeline

    Looking forward to Su-64 Cool


    Kiko wrote:
    Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, ?
    Supposedly it's India. They're fond of two-seat combat aircraft.

    Most likely

    India wants this planer because they want a stealth nuclear bomber on the cheap, that's why they wanted two seater and also why they threw a shit fit and backed out of original PAK-FA project when first prototype wasn't super duper stealth plane they were expecting from the get go

    That and expecting full tech transfer while only paying 15% of development costs

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 am

    LMFS wrote:
    franco wrote:How many Su-35's will go to the VKS out of what appears to be 11 produced?

    This is what we have, apparently 7 for the VKS and 8 for export, but Borisov said now it is 15 for export...
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 82861810

    past year , the plans for 2021 were 2 Su-57, 5 Su-35 for VKS and 8 for export, this is 15 in total

    the difference is the 22 planned for export in 2020 of course were not delivered, probably the hand over of 7 have been passed to 2021, then now 15 only for export

    production is a continuous variable, delivery is punctual and does not respond only to the production rhythm, since the client may not be ready to receive them, especially if they do not have enough trained pilots at that time to handle these aircraft

    in total this year should be delivered in KNAAZ 4 Su-57, 5 Su-35 and 15 SU-35 for export
    VKS must receive 12 Su-35 for a squadron in Millerovo between 2021 and 2022 ( in theory 5+7)

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:38 am

    Wasn't the FGFA supposed to be a 2-seater?
    And it was an export version of the Su-57 as well for all intents and purposes

    Looks like they've gone back to the project. Only this time with no customer What a Face
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:45 am

    It was, mostly due to the nuclear option PD mentioned.

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:51 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Wasn't the FGFA supposed to be a 2-seater?
    And it was an export version of the Su-57 as well for all intents and purposes...

    FGFA was and always has been a monkey version of Su-57

    And if you plan on exporting 57 you need to have the monkey version because nobody is dumb enough to sell the real thing

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    Post  Isos Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Wasn't the FGFA supposed to be a 2-seater?
    And it was an export version of the Su-57 as well for all intents and purposes...

    FGFA was and always has been a monkey version of Su-57

    And if you plan on exporting 57 you need to have the monkey version because nobody is dumb enough to sell the real thing


    Not at all.

    It was supposed to be developed by India with help of Russia.

    Nothing to do with an export version of su-57.

    It's like Brahmos/Oniks.

    India was supposed to make it alone but they asked full ToT for very small amount of money and no work from their side when they were supposed to make their labs develop similar technologies and use su-57 design as a basis with russian help but with no ToT.

    Not the same thing as a russian made Su-57E.
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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:37 am

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 E4GGW_tWQAMItIU?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Post  thegopnik Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:23 am

    Quora sure is weird as hell, got nearly 25,000 views on why the Su-57s receiver sensitivity in terms of passive detection is more superior in terms of finding emitting targets 1st than the F-22 and F-35 in which it can immediately turn off its radar if it wants before the those aircrafts are aware that they were passively tracked 1st before maneuvering itself later to turn its radar back on to attack high RCS angles on both aircrafts. https://qr.ae/pGFTGv compared to my pinned Quora profile answer of the Su-57 with less views but even more upvotes. I must be getting a nice pissed off crowd viewing my nice work Laughing

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:58 pm

    Not at all.

    It was supposed to be developed by India with help of Russia.

    The Brahmos is just an upgraded Yakhont... its performance does not approach the original Onyx because it is not allowed to due to export restrictions which limit range and payload.

    Of course upgrades to the Brahmos were applied to the Onyx but not the Yakhont because the Yakhont is the export model obviously.

    The Indian 5th gen fighter programme was essentially going to be an Indian modification of an export version of the Su-57, much like the Su-30MKI was a modification of the Su-30M.

    The Indians would have added some Indian components and likely Israeli and French components and would have massively increased the price that India paid to assemble them locally.

    Certain Russian parts would not be for export even to India and those could be replaced with French or Israeli bits or India might have a go at the replacement, but any export version of the Su-57 will be different from the one used domestically in Russia... very much the same as with S-400 SAMs and Su-35 fighter aircraft.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 pm

    People in the west really don't like dissenting voices... but are really surprised to find you actually know what you are talking about and you are not some Russian 14 year old defending Russia, like the internet seems to be filled with 14 year old Americans defending F-35s cause they are cool...

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    Post  owais.usmani Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:57 pm

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 20188810

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    Post  Atmosphere Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:13 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 20188810

    Beautiful picture.
    Ps: the following stuff is not claimed to be a fact, but simply my guess based on something that i have noticed from this pic. I still think that passing personal Opinions as a fact is stupid.

    This is one of the images that, in my opionion, clearly demonstrate that sawtooth nozzles are great but not the be all end all feature for back hemisphere stealth.

    Simple minded people think in black in white:
    Sawtooth= stealth
    No sawtooth= no stealth

    In reality the back of an aircraft is a complex figure with all sorts of shapes and forms, you have a lot of cylindrical objects to begin with (engine nacelles, shown in red) , and deforming control surfaces (shown in Orange).

    Meanwhile, the nozzles part, shown in green, is simply a tiny portion, even if the lack of sawtooth increased the RCS a bit, it wont be significant, since this aircraft, or any other, would have many of the so called stealth compromisig features in different sections

    So, sawtooth nozzle endings are good for the sake of refinment but i dont see the lack of it as a stealth terminating feature.
    It's a spectrum not a Black and white sort of thing

    Which is probably why thet never bothered retrofitting it.
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 Img_2011

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    Post  LMFS Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:41 pm

    From our friend Dorfmeister (Red Samovar)

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 27 E4JQuirVEA4Qk1Y?format=jpg&name=large

    https://twitter.com/Strike_Flanker/status/1405775918539309061/photo/1

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