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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:06 pm

    Engine is still in developement. If you could fix issues quickly you would already have flying cars. In rel world of engineering it takes years to develop such products.

    Even when developed they will work to improve it.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:12 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Gomig-21 wrote:If those are in fact 3 fuel tanks on its back and spine, that is quite the internal load of fuel this thing can carry!  It would be something if that center, spine "box" was actually a container for additional missiles that would automatically feed down into the forward weapons bay once its missiles are used up.  That would give this aircraft quite the weapons load as you could pack in what, 20 R-77s in that space?  Even split it where the lower half holds additional missiles while the upper half holds fuel.  That would be quite the setup to make this thing even more lethal than it already seems to be.

    If the Su-57 is to match the massive 11.5 t of fuel of the Su-35 for a range >3500 km, which I take as the "no brainer" approach to the plane's baseline requirements, then they need something close to 14.5 cubic meter fuel volume, and that is a LOT. Some knowledgeable guys doubt this is even possible, since the linear dimensions of the Su-57 are smaller than those of the Flankers. The plane already has way bigger weapons bays than any other competitor and, as discussed, the current issue would be how to make the best use of it. Two layers of magazine would make the handling of the missiles very complex, the mechanicals would be quite challenging. I think the plane as designed is a masterpiece and the only piece missing is to know more abut the real capabilities including operational concept, engines, systems and armament.

    I think the quote goes is that the Su-57 has more litres of fuel than Su-27s, which I believe makes sense since the Su-35 did receive additional fuel tanks. But taking into account newer design, materials, and engines, it will get the same or higher range than the Su-35. Plus possibility of have the huge drop tanks as well.

    Overall it's an incredible plane, enormous range and payload, all-around(or near all-around) radar, full vision systems, all around IRST, laser countermeasures, kinematic capability....but people focus on rivets.

    I wonder if the smart-skin suite will allow rear-facing/launching AAM's like it was tested on the Su-27M?

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr59UXcAMN6Ri?format=jpg&name=240x240Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr597W4AAMVwG?format=jpg&name=240x240Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr6CIW8AIQTKt?format=jpg&name=240x240Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr6EjXMAIo_P6?format=jpg&name=small

    Because the AAM's are internally carried it will not affect drag like it would on a Su-27 family aircraft. Obviously your not going to have LRAAM's like R-37M's rear facing, or MRAAM's for that matter but for SRAAM's? Seems reasonable to have VSRAAM's like Morfei missiles rear facing.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:19 pm

    Morphei is radio guided last time I checked, similar to Tor guidance.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:23 pm

    Isos wrote:Morphei is radio guided last time I checked, similar to Tor guidance.

    Yeah, and the Su-27M in the photos used a rear-facing radar, what's your point?
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    Post  Isos Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:28 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Morphei is radio guided last time I checked, similar to Tor guidance.

    Yeah, and the Su-27M in the photos used a rear-facing radar, what's your point?

    Radio guidance isn't the same a radar guided.

    You track both the target and the missile and send path correction to the missile.

    Radar you just lock on the target and the SARH missile will trackvthe target by itself or the ARHR missile will turn it seaker on and track it alone.

    Radio guidance isn't optimal for airborne missiles.

    Anyway rear facing missiles suck. Very unlikely to be used and take a weapon pylon. Datalink allows nearby aircraft to help each other like demonstrated by paki against india.

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    Post  LMFS Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:01 pm

    I would think some containers for some sort of APS ammo similar to the ones used in tanks would do the trick too and would not need a missile

    @Dorfmeister:

    your pieces are great, keep up the good work thumbsup

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    Post  Dorfmeister Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:28 pm

    LMFS wrote:@Dorfmeister:

    your pieces are great, keep up the good work thumbsup

    Doing my best to be the most neutral and accurate, thank you Embarassed Wink
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    Post  thegopnik Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:45 pm

    I am willing to make a bet here that if the Su-57 does indeed get a photonic based radar for 2022 than they have designed or are designing missiles that are 1 meter or below in size to engage incoming air to air missiles because the tracking precision of using 100ghz will be high enough which is needed for a small diameter sized homing radar for a missile.

    Tank like APS i dont know. T-14 is like 26.5-40ghz. Missiles engaging an aircraft are faster and more manueverable. Currently using x-band you still have a good chance of being off target. Projectiles might work but that depends where the projectiles are located on the aircraft, photonic radar capability finding them in what ranges to give the aircraft time to adjust itself to launch projectiles of incoming direction of missile since the Su-57 is not like a porcupine.

    Projectiles have a very short range, and dont have homing heads to follow incoming air to air missiles and they follow just one direction., so the area of destruction will be very close, but that wont be a problem depending if 100ghz is able to detect the incoming missile at a good enough range
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:03 am

    Weren't they talking about an upgrade 2024-2025 with new engines and other things.

    I would expect they would want to fly it for tests for quite a period before putting it on an operational aircraft... look at how long it has taken to get AESA radars on aircraft... not that they are stupid, but that they are cautious and practical... where PESA has most of the advantages and rather less cost.

    that are 1 meter or below in size to engage incoming air to air missiles because the tracking precision of using 100ghz will be high enough which is needed for a small diameter sized homing radar for a missile.

    You don't need 100% precision, most Russian SAMs are able to shoot down missiles and bombs including missiles aimed with beam riding and also command guidance. Mainly because there is such a thing as laser proximity fuses.

    Tank like APS i dont know. T-14 is like 26.5-40ghz. Missiles engaging an aircraft are faster and more manueverable.

    Not usually much faster and generally not particularly manouverable... certainly not as manouverable as an aircraft...

    The APS for the T-14 can stop APFSDS rounds which can be moving at rather higher speeds than any AAM.

    Projectiles have a very short range, and dont have homing heads to follow incoming air to air missiles and they follow just one direction., so the area of destruction will be very close, but that wont be a problem depending if 100ghz is able to detect the incoming missile at a good enough range

    Rather than trying to cover every potential angle with fixed munitions... like ARENA or DROZD, it makes more sense to carry a bundle of small light weight anti missile missiles like Morfei is supposed to be. A sort of modern R-60 except instead of a light self defence missile for heavier aircraft it would be a lightweight sprinter that can engage close targets including missiles and possibly large calibre rounds, but also aircraft and drones.

    Morfei is supposed to be a lock on after launch missile with IIR guidance and a two way datalink with a full thrust vectoring rocket motor to be used in aircraft (ie inside weapon bays of stealthy aircraft... fighters and bombers, on standard aircraft like helicopters non stealthy fighters and bombers and also drones) in the Army on a separate ground based vehicle to replace the SA-13 together with Pine, and the Air Force on its own separate platform to compliment Pantsir with a fire and forget weapon and also as part of the S-350 launch system and could also be used on the S-400 for short range defence because removing one full sized S-400 missiles allows four S-350 9M96 missiles but four 9M100 Morfei missiles fits in each 9M96 tube so therefore for each 250km or 400km range S-400 missile you give up you should be able to carry a single layer of 16 Morfei missiles and because they are smaller than the smallest 9M96 missiles your could probably carry two layers for 32 missiles per S-400 missile you give up... which should afford excellent self defence capacity for the battery... and finally the Navy will be introducing the 9M100 Morfei as a CIWS missile that can be fitted to Redut tubes, though I would think being able to carry them in TOR tubes would also be beneficial on land and at sea...
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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:06 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Gomig-21 wrote:If those are in fact 3 fuel tanks on its back and spine, that is quite the internal load of fuel this thing can carry!  It would be something if that center, spine "box" was actually a container for additional missiles that would automatically feed down into the forward weapons bay once its missiles are used up.  That would give this aircraft quite the weapons load as you could pack in what, 20 R-77s in that space?  Even split it where the lower half holds additional missiles while the upper half holds fuel.  That would be quite the setup to make this thing even more lethal than it already seems to be.

    If the Su-57 is to match the massive 11.5 t of fuel of the Su-35 for a range >3500 km, which I take as the "no brainer" approach to the plane's baseline requirements, then they need something close to 14.5 cubic meter fuel volume, and that is a LOT. Some knowledgeable guys doubt this is even possible, since the linear dimensions of the Su-57 are smaller than those of the Flankers. The plane already has way bigger weapons bays than any other competitor and, as discussed, the current issue would be how to make the best use of it. Two layers of magazine would make the handling of the missiles very complex, the mechanicals would be quite challenging. I think the plane as designed is a masterpiece and the only piece missing is to know more abut the real capabilities including operational concept, engines, systems and armament.

    I think the quote goes is that the Su-57 has more litres of fuel than Su-27s, which I believe makes sense since the Su-35 did receive additional fuel tanks. But taking into account newer design, materials, and engines, it will get the same or higher range than the Su-35. Plus possibility of have the huge drop tanks as well.

    Overall it's an incredible plane, enormous range and payload, all-around(or near all-around) radar, full vision systems, all around IRST, laser countermeasures, kinematic capability....but people focus on rivets.

    I wonder if the smart-skin suite will allow rear-facing/launching AAM's like it was tested on the Su-27M?

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr59UXcAMN6Ri?format=jpg&name=240x240Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr597W4AAMVwG?format=jpg&name=240x240Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr6CIW8AIQTKt?format=jpg&name=240x240Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Encr6EjXMAIo_P6?format=jpg&name=small

    Because the AAM's are internally carried it will not affect drag like it would on a Su-27 family aircraft. Obviously your not going to have LRAAM's like R-37M's rear facing, or MRAAM's for that matter but for SRAAM's? Seems reasonable to have VSRAAM's like Morfei missiles rear facing.

    I remember for as long as I can remember why they never came up with a solution like that?! Wouldn't that automatically neglect the 6-ocklock chase of the enemy aircraft? I think when they came up with the 45 degree boresite R-73, they either dropped the idea of a complete, rear facing missile since that would kind of do the same trick but with a larger degree of difficulty. I still like that and man would that be something. The only problem is that now it's become even more obsolete as a means of firing a following enemy since much of that stuff is fired at BVR distances and not sure where that would put that rear facing missile under those conditions? But I've always loved the idea or even a rear facing gun!
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    Post  Backman Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:02 pm

    This is what you call a sleek low profile design.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 41281_1602253244

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    Post  kvs Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:45 pm

    But, but, but the nacelles are round and not 2D like on the F-22. So Russia = epic fail....

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    Post  Isos Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:24 pm

    From behind the radar waves will go inside the engine so you will never have a stealthy RCS.

    But the advantage is that for a target going away from the radar the detection is greatly reduced so having even a 1m2 rcs is like a 0.01m2 rcs from the front.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:42 pm

    Isos wrote:From behind the radar waves will go inside the engine so you will never have a stealthy RCS.

    But the advantage is that for a target going away from the radar the detection is greatly reduced so having even a 1m2 rcs is like a 0.01m2 rcs from the front.

    1. Have you seen izd. 30 from behind?
    2. Any difference in that regard with F-22?
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    Post  Isos Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:59 pm

    F 22 has the same issue. The materials inside engines are made to resist very high temperature, not be stealthy.

    Shaping the nozzles is totally useless.

    Same for any jet.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:53 pm

    F135 has radar blockers also inside the nozzle, we do not know how izd. 30 will be done.
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:53 pm

    kvs wrote:But, but, but the nacelles are round and not 2D like on the F-22.  So Russia = epic fail....  

    The Su-57 doesn't intend on leaving any survivors to witness its shapely behind. My kind of stealth.

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    Post  Backman Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:08 pm

    Isos wrote:From behind the radar waves will go inside the engine so you will never have a stealthy RCS.

    But the advantage is that for a target going away from the radar the detection is greatly reduced so having even a 1m2 rcs is like a 0.01m2 rcs from the front.

    You can still see some engine blade on the F-22 looking straight from the back like this.

    And the F-35 is the same as the su 57 except it has a big fat ass end

    The lower the profile of the jet , the less jet there is for radar to hit. So the su 57 is best in class on that score
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    Post  LMFS Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:33 am

    Another nice one:
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Ew1MLC_WQAADV79?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:29 am

    Looking very hot...


    I wonder if the smart-skin suite will allow rear-facing/launching AAM's like it was tested on the Su-27M?

    The problem with rear firing missiles is the flight time when the missile is essentially flying at zero speed... there is no airflow to support it so its nose just drops and points downwards... the R-27s tested were total failures because of this the large butterfly wings cannot support the missile when there is zero airflow over them... the nose drops and the nose mounted seeker loses lock and it still has its motor going and accelerates rapidly straight down into the ground.

    The R-73 on the other hand has thrust vector engine controls and was able to maintain a nose up attitude so it could keep the target in view, but it was found that the energy used to accelerate from a negative flight speed of perhaps 500-600km per hour back down to zero speed and then accelerate backwards to a useful attack speed seriously reduced the effective range down to 5km or so.

    It was essentially decided that it would make more sense for an aircraft doing 400-600km per hour to just pull back hard on the flight stick and point the nose at the target and launch a forward pointed missile at the target... it accelerates faster and it greatly boosts the missiles range as opposed to designing a missile to pull a 180 degree turn on launch.

    Next generation missiles with full TVC rocket motors will be able to turn much harder and more rapidly so they lose less energy in the turn and can accelerate to much higher speeds leading to better range performance with 360 degree coverage.

    The lock on after launch guidance system also means it wont matter if it is not locked on at launch time.

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    Post  Backman Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:50 am

    Found some pics that haven't circulated that much.

    Check out the control surfaces

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Deg9z7m-3eca171a-ff4e-40cd-99c6-f5ff36c602ca.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvNjczMmY2M2YtZDU0Zi00Nzg5LWI0ZWEtZGU0ZTIxMzMyZDk2XC9kZWc5ejdtLTNlY2ExNzFhLWZmNGUtNDBjZC05OWM2LWY1ZmYzNmM2MDJjYS5wbmcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:23 pm


    Original plane on this old pic was inverted but photo was too good so I flipped it and reposted it:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Ehtkty10

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    Post  FFjet Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:16 am

    Dorfmeister wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:He is talking about if the engine is adapted for use in the PAK DP

    sorry wrong article

    https://redsamovar.com/2020/12/26/actu-livraison-du-premier-sukhoi-su-57-de-Serie/

    in the article the author cites an invoice of some kind. here is the link.

    https://zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/lot-info.html?lotId=13455655&purchaseId=10143489&purchaseMethodType=IS

    I translated it and this is a portion of what the author quoted.

    1700-2020-02468 Implementation of research and development work on the topic: "Research to determine the causes of destruction of the welded section of 1-2 stages of HPC kit No. С17-004 of product 30-05 assembly 7".

    anyone with jet engine knowledge out there? the hot compressor core is the beating heart of the whole thing. what do you guys make of all this?

    I know I'm writting the articles in French but the invoice is quite clear about the works and researchs needed and it quite confirms what P.Butowski wrote recently about some difficulties encountered with the Izd.30 Wink


    What did P.Butowski write recently about izd. 30? Any links?
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:03 pm

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    Post  Backman Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:07 am

    Like a flying wing

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 16 Degg9dn-f928529a-e545-450f-b1e4-4051db164c62.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvNjczMmY2M2YtZDU0Zi00Nzg5LWI0ZWEtZGU0ZTIxMzMyZDk2XC9kZWdnOWRuLWY5Mjg1MjlhLWU1NDUtNDUwZi1iMWU0LTQwNTFkYjE2NGM2Mi5wbmcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ

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