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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:58 pm

    Russia’s defense chief stresses need to build up production of Su-57 fighters

    MOSCOW, February 2. /TASS/. It is important to build up the production of Il-76MD-90A heavy military transport planes and Su-57 fifth-generation fighters for the Russian troops, Defense Minister Army General Sergei Shoigu said at the ministry’s conference call on Tuesday.

    "This year, it is important to build up the production of advanced types of armament: Su-57 fifth-generation multirole fighters and new Il-76MD-90A heavy military transport planes," the defense chief said.

    No less important is the work to resume the production of upgraded Tu-160M strategic bombers at the Kazan Aviation Enterprise, Shoigu stressed.

    "Today we will talk about how to ensure the systematic workload of our aviation enterprises and solve a number of technological tasks," the defense chief said.

    ‘We will discuss the pace of implementing the defense procurement plan and providing maintenance services for aircraft. Last year, enterprises of the United Aircraft Corporation supplied 147 aircraft to the Armed Forces, including the first serial-produced Su-57 multirole fighter," Shoigu said.

    In 2020, upgraded Tu-160M and Tu-95MSM strategic missile-carrying bombers performed their debut flights. The defense contractors completed two long-term contracts for the delivery of Su-35S multirole fighters and Su-34 fighter bombers to the troops, the defense chief said.

    The Il-76MD-90A is a heavily upgraded version of the Il-76MD military transport plane. The aircraft’s new navigation and automated control systems and its communications suite enhance flight safety and the accuracy of piloting and landing.

    The latest modification of the widely known military transport plane is distinguished by its new equipment, including the glass cockpit, modern PS-90A-76 engines, the modified wing and the enhanced landing gear. Russia is developing an Il-78-90A aerial refueling tanker on the basis of the Il-76MD-90A plane.

    The Su-57 is a fifth-generation multirole fighter designed to destroy all types of air, ground and naval targets. The Su-57 fighter jet features stealth technology with the broad use of composite materials, is capable of developing supersonic cruising speed and is furnished with the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment, including a powerful onboard computer (the so-called electronic second pilot), the radar system spread across its body and some other innovations, in particular, armament placed inside its fuselage.

    The Su-57 took to the skies for the first time on January 29, 2010. Compared to its predecessors, the Su-57 combines the functions of an attack plane and a fighter jet while the use of composite materials and innovation technologies and the fighter’s aerodynamic configuration ensure the low level of radar and infrared signature.

    The plane’s armament will include, in particular, hypersonic missiles. The fifth-generation fighter jet has been successfully tested in combat conditions in Syria.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:So ASRAAM doesn't fly, because it has minimal external surfaces because it has TVC for manouvering and has only tiny stabilisers...

    You get lift from both the body AND the lifting surfaces, regardless of the Mach number.

    It is about density and mass... there is a reason bullets are generally lead cored because dense means mass and also lower drag because of compact size.

    Rather momentum and drag but I know what you mean. Where you don't convince me is that it is worth carrying an empty booster. There is a lift force needed to keep it in the air, you surely understand that, and that comes from AoA therefore drag. It is not a given that the separated warheads do not have better L/D values (I am almost certain they would due to the triangular shape), and the momentum could be partially transferred with a pyrotechnic charge that propels the warheads braking the booster.

    And wearing a ghillie suit does not help if you stand up and run around an open field in it...

    As a HATO force commander once said... it is easy to defeat our army... just shoot all the bushes... after an exercise on open flat grassy plains.

    EW creates those bushes too...

    They want to sell product and make their system look the best they can so they tend to use peak values... and if you have ever seen a RCS image of any aircraft... the 2 D one looking down vertically showing radar returns from horizontal angles the result is a hedge hog... very very spiky.

    You can give the smallest figure or the average or the biggest... no one gives the biggest.

    Of course, I agree, and they hardly ever consider the real width of those peaks and the radar beam, which is not infinitely small as they would like us to believe. But it is even worse. The RCS calculations one can normally find in the internet as open research are most frequently based on physical optics but disregard a crucial contribution in the form of diffraction, sometimes also even double reflections. RCS values even for an elementary shape using different methods which in turn consider different contributions are radically different. And the models cannot consider all those contributions on all the real world elements like rivets, gaps, unevenness, apertures, internal structures, pitot tubes, different materials etc., even less when the wavelength approaches the size of the object. Accurately calculating the diffracted fields on an AESA antenna with 2000 elements is a computational nightmare, nobody does this on the open sources or I have not seen it at least. I am yet to see a REAL RCS value of modern LO designs based on military grade simulation tools or coming from true measurements.

    It really only matters when you start getting very very stealthy and with an existing type that is simply not possible.

    Agreed, and still the tactical meaning of a sizeable reduction of RCS is important even when it is not so fashionable as LO shaped planes.

    But for the super stealthy aircraft it reveals there is enemy forces there and of course can be specifically targeted too.

    It may be irrelevant if the plane has been in the screens of an OTH radar for hours, surely you have heard the narrative about "breaking the kill chain" that Western MIC invented once it was clear that their planes were visible in lower frequency radars. It still holds some truth in it, a very low RCS target will be harder to hit by an ARH missile and will have much more efficient ECM even with the same or even less irradiated power. In the end what matters the most is if you can be actually hit or not.

    LO was invented for planes like the Rafale that were designed and made when stealth was an issue, but they really didn't pay that much attention to making the aircraft stealthy. They wanted to reduce the distance you could detect it but probably couldn't actually make a stealthy design work.

    That was some category to make things look easy, but we know in military technology there is nothing easy. BTW I think the issue is not so much to reduce detection range without further details but to increase the effectiveness of ECM.

    VLO is to compete against F-35s which can probably also be considered VLO in their export versions that wont be as stealthy as domestic models.

    And yet we don't know what real RCS value in what aspects and frequencies that VLO means...

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:31 pm

    You get lift from both the body AND the lifting surfaces, regardless of the Mach number.

    Yeah, I think you will find you don't.... fins are not wings and wings are not fins... there is an enormous difference.

    Example A the Dragon III anti tank missile. It is covered in about 62 little side thruster rocket motors... a bit like puffer jets... after being launched from the tube the rocket motors that cover the sides of the missile fire sequentially as it rolls... so two on the bottom will fire to maintain forward speed, while side rockets and even top facing rockets will be fired to steer the missile.

    It was a terrible design and a total piece of crap, but it was Americas Milan... with a range of about 1km and a common tendancy to fly into the ground at shorter distances because a rookie operator is oversteering and used up all the rocket thrusters before it reached its target.

    If there was body lift and fin lift why would it need the downward facing rocket thrusters to be used to keep it in flight.

    Most other ATGMs have a nose up flight attitude and therefore they are constantly climbing at a rate that equals the pull of gravity... no lift is involved... essentially it is treading water... it is climbing at the rate it is falling to maintain altitude... which is what most missiles do.

    At speeds above mach 5 there is body lift effects.

    Where you don't convince me is that it is worth carrying an empty booster.

    Don't think of it as an empty booster... think of it as a 500kg cluster bomb... it is more aerodynamically efficient when it is complete... when it bursts open and releases its payload it loses its aerodynamic efficient shape and it becomes an airbrake, but also the small munitions wont fall with the same speed as they are lighter and are more effective by wind currents.

    I often used to walk around the local university on a windy day and be amused walking around corners into a sharp gust of wind and see smaller lighter thinner students almost lose their footing and be stopped in mid step... the smarter ones walked behind me and used me as a wind break.

    There is a lift force needed to keep it in the air, you surely understand that, and that comes from AoA therefore drag.

    Most very long range missiles use a long burn low energy solid rocket fuel that essentially counters drag and generates a slight lifting force.

    Accurately calculating the diffracted fields on an AESA antenna with 2000 elements is a computational nightmare, nobody does this on the open sources or I have not seen it at least. I am yet to see a REAL RCS value of modern LO designs based on military grade simulation tools or coming from true measurements.

    It is a dark art and enormously complex and confusing. Even the terms are misleading... a 1m^2 radar cross section does not mean the target looks like a flat sheet of metal purpendicular to the radar antenna that is 1m by 1m square... such a target would have a RCS of dozens of metres if it is flat.

    Normally the values refer to spheres but they are not talking about a sphere 1m^2 either.

    An SA-6 KUB surface to air missile is now obsolete in Russia and is used as a training target for air defence systems.

    With a smooth normal curved nosecone made out of sheet metal (ie reflecting radar rather than a transparent dielectric panel that allows radar waves to penetrate the nose cone and hit the flat radar antenna underneath) the RCS of the missile is 0.1-0.3m^2. With a radar transparent nose cone exposing the flat inner surface the RCS goes to 1m^2... despite it being nothing like 1m by 1m in size. With a corner reflector fitted inside a transparent nose dome the RCS can be 3 to 5m^2.

    Agreed, and still the tactical meaning of a sizeable reduction of RCS is important even when it is not so fashionable as LO shaped planes.

    Huge reductions are really only possible on aircraft that had really bad RCS to start with.

    You can greatly improve the RCS of a Bear simply by removing all radar reflective material from their engine blades... that alone would massively reduce RCS.

    The RCS of the Tu-160 is actually supposed to be rather good from the front... not tiny or invisible, but looking more like a large fighter with external weapons than a strategic bomber.

    It may be irrelevant if the plane has been in the screens of an OTH radar for hours, surely you have heard the narrative about "breaking the kill chain" that Western MIC invented once it was clear that their planes were visible in lower frequency radars.

    The west makes up all sorts of shit to justify the choices they made and the money they have spent.

    Russia has a fully integrated air defence network, and as we saw in Saudi Arabia it is the most critical part to see the enemy attack before they destroy your stuff because by then it is too late.

    It still holds some truth in it, a very low RCS target will be harder to hit by an ARH missile and will have much more efficient ECM even with the same or even less irradiated power. In the end what matters the most is if you can be actually hit or not.

    In the sense that only an idiot faced with an enemy going for an all stealthy air fleet would rely only on ARH missiles to deal with them.

    I would think the IIR and optically guided missiles they are releasing in other areas like ATGMs could be part of a solution... perhaps fitted with mirrors to deflect DIRCMs lasers and other dazzling systems, or just really use a broad range of frequencies for the job.

    Their new photon radars might make it a trivial solution to the problem.


    And yet we don't know what real RCS value in what aspects and frequencies that VLO means...

    Much like fighter generations bullshit that can mean anything you want it to mean... like the non supercruising F-35 is a 5th gen fighter?

    It has the big powerful engine yet is flys like a dog.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:Yeah, I think you will find you don't.... fins are not wings and wings are not fins... there is an enormous difference.

    Are you sure? Take a look at how fins and supersonic wings are built...

    At speeds above mach 5 there is body lift effects.

    There is body lift at any speed if the design and AoA are adequate. At very high speeds the lift of any even small structures gets bigger and at the same time drag needs to be minimized, that is why missiles manage to fly with smaller fins or wings than other aircraft, but they also need a certain AoA to fly and the slower they go, the bigger the AoA and drag and the faster they loose speed until they fall from sky. That is why at the end of the flight they are frequently too slow to be a real danger to fighter planes.

    Don't think of it as an empty booster... think of it as a 500kg cluster bomb... it is more aerodynamically efficient when it is complete... when it bursts open and releases its payload it loses its aerodynamic efficient shape and it becomes an airbrake, but also the small munitions wont fall with the same speed as they are lighter and are more effective by wind currents.

    These are not bomblets but full blown missiles with their own rocket engine and an optimized aero profile. As said we cannot know for sure what is best before making numbers...

    I often used to walk around the local university on a windy day and be amused walking around corners into a sharp gust of wind and see smaller lighter thinner students almost lose their footing and be stopped in mid step... the smarter ones walked behind me and used me as a wind break.
    Razz

    Most very long range missiles use a long burn low energy solid rocket fuel that essentially counters drag and generates a slight lifting force.

    The lifting force is generated by the missile's AoA, not by the rocket engine.

    It is a dark art and enormously complex and confusing. Even the terms are misleading... a 1m^2 radar cross section does not mean the target looks like a flat sheet of metal purpendicular to the radar antenna that is 1m by 1m square... such a target would have a RCS of dozens of metres if it is flat.

    Agree, this is not trivial at all and the explanations given most of the time are extremely dumbed down versions.
    The 1 sqm RCS is the radar return of a sphere with cross sectional area of 1 sqm, so the actual surface facing back to the emitter is a tiny fraction of the sphere.

    With a radar transparent nose cone exposing the flat inner surface the RCS goes to 1m^2... despite it being nothing like 1m by 1m in size. With a corner reflector fitted inside a transparent nose dome the RCS can be 3 to 5m^2.

    This is one of the main issues current "0.0001 sqm RCS" claims have, the nose cone is transparent in X band and contains thousands of metal elements with a size resonant at that wavelength. Even if you design them very carefully (which is of course the case), you have a huge source of radar return that I simply don't believe can be that small. The simulations I have seen also point in that same direction.

    In the sense that only an idiot faced with an enemy going for an all stealthy air fleet would rely only on ARH missiles to deal with them.

    I still think there is more to that than it seems, all countries keep producing ARH missiles to fight supposedly VLO fighters. IR guidance can be dazzled with DIRCM so it is vulnerable too.

    Much like fighter generations bullshit that can mean anything you want it to mean... like the non supercruising F-35 is a 5th gen fighter?

    Yes, it has the unmistakable stench of a silly and cynical sales pitch all over it. If it can be used to sold the product, use it, but if not, just forget it and hype another feature.
    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:54 am

    This is some pretty interesting stuff!



    And this Su-57 aerobatics video is excellent. Tail slide at the end is the longest one I've seen any fighter pull off.
    Great stuff!

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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:19 am

    The lifting force is generated by the missile's AoA, not by the rocket engine.

    But angle of attack with the rocket engine running in essentially base bleed mode should be generating lift by definition...

    The angle of attack is to allow the rocket motor to counter gravity and maintain altitude.
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    Post  TMA1 Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:55 am

    Gomig-21 wrote:This is some pretty interesting stuff!



    And this Su-57 aerobatics video is excellent.  Tail slide at the end is the longest one I've seen any fighter pull off.
    Great stuff!



    love the performance of the su-57 here. it seems like they have finally allowed it to show itself for the monster it truly is. imagine it's moves when it gets the product 30.

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:21 pm

    TMA1 wrote:love the performance of the su-57 here. it seems like they have finally allowed it to show itself for the monster it truly is. imagine it's moves when it gets the product 30.

    For sure.  The way those H-stabs cut into the wings must give that aircraft that much more mobility that we probably haven't seen yet.

    So far the best rendition of those single weapons bays. @LMFS Still believe it when I see it! Razz

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    And supposedly the newer compact version of the R-77 & R-73 to mount 4 per weapons bay.

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    Sweet ass-end view and of the weapons bays.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 EthmPltUcAA9CjY?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  Backman Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:12 pm

    ^ Look at how low profile the back is compared to the fat asses of the F-35 and F-22. And that plays a huge part in lowering the RCS

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    Post  thegopnik Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:04 pm

    Gomig-21 wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:love the performance of the su-57 here. it seems like they have finally allowed it to show itself for the monster it truly is. imagine it's moves when it gets the product 30.

    For sure.  The way those H-stabs cut into the wings must give that aircraft that much more mobility that we probably haven't seen yet.

    So far the best rendition of those single weapons bays. @LMFS  Still believe it when I see it! Razz

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    And supposedly the newer compact version of the R-77 & R-73 to mount 4 per weapons bay.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 W1fw9H-n?format=jpg&name=small

    Sweet ass-end view and of the weapons bays.

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    Is that 8 missile loadout real? meaning 10 missiles in total if we include the short range missiles on the sides?
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    Post  LMFS Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:20 pm

    Gomig-21 wrote:@LMFS  Still believe it when I see it! Razz

    Well, sure, you may need to touch a Su-57 to believe it who knows... I don't see any miracle needed to place a tube of alu inside a bay and rail-launch it from an extendable ejector dunno

    And supposedly the newer compact version of the R-77 & R-73 to mount 4 per weapons bay.

    The short R-77-like missile we saw appears to be too long for that, but as discussed there are many potential ways to increase the AAM payload in the plane.

    thegopnik wrote:Is that 8 missile loadout real? meaning 10 missiles in total if we include the short range missiles on the sides?

    No it is not, yet. Those missiles would be substantially shorter ranged as current R-77, but there are other ways without those drawbacks...

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:29 pm

    thegopnik wrote:Is that 8 missile loadout real? meaning 10 missiles in total if we include the short range missiles on the sides?

    From what I've been gathering (and the other fellas/experts can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) that these are the new compact missiles being developed for the Su-57.  Compact version of the R-77.  You can clearly see they're shorter/stubbier.

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    And I believe @Isos had posted this pic earlier in the thread showing that compact R-77.  I think it's safe to assume there is only one reason to manufacture a compact version of that missile.

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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:45 pm

    Where did you find the first pic ? Twitter ? Can you share the source please ?

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:53 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Well, sure, you may need to touch a Su-57 to believe it who knows... I don't see any miracle needed to place a tube of alu inside a bay and rail-launch it from an extendable ejector  dunno

    They can let me know when they're ready, I can do a full, on-hands inspection and even take requests.    

    lol.  Just trying to inject a little humor to lighten up the stiff-neck-ness around here.    

    LMFS wrote:The short R-77-like missile we saw appears to be too long for that, but as discussed there are many potential ways to increase the AAM payload in the plane.

    I think you're right.  Having those humans standing next to the missiles gives them a bit of scale, so to speak, where you can transfer to the weapons bays, they do appear to be still a bit too long than half the length of the bays.  But we still don't know how they're stacking them in there.  

    Looking really sweet.

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:59 pm

    Isos wrote:Where did you find the first pic ? Twitter ? Can you share the source please ?

    Not sure which pic, but I think I started here and then checked out several of the other posted accounts within that page.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=Su-57%20Weapons%20bay&src=typed_query

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    Post  Atmosphere Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:44 pm

    Gomig-21 wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:
    AESA radars with similar capability to the western radars existed a long time ago, but it was always more of a cost / mass production issue rather than a technological issue.
    i remind all that in an interview , the head of phazotron said that the declared 120 km range" was a massive lowball and only represented an initial goal they set , the radar itself could actually see at 250 km in the same conditions , and later , they cut the weight to around 400 kg while keeping the same performance.
    now , they have an ultra light 100 km radar (Zhuk-AmEH) with a detection range of 260 km for a 3 sqm target in TWS (not Velocity search !). 100 kg is impressive.

    Su-35 : (at 9:08)

    Su-57 also has it , with the 101KS-O working like an IRST , so not only it has 360 degree of coverage both in IR and TV spectrums , its also a fully fledged targetting system
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 EUmKT9sX0AICpDv

    A lot of great detailed information in those 2 videos on the Su-35. Some pretty impressive radar band coverages with a library that recognizes over 1024 types of radars, wow.  That's quite the capability.  But what I found really amazing is the IRBIS-E having the capability of "recognizing the state of various aircraft by counting their turbine blades"! lol, that is crazy.  A lot of other really incredible stuff on the Su-35 in those 2 videos.

    indeed i was surprised as well , but remember , Zvezda's su-35 documentary also mentions the ability to detect 0 or near 0 speed helicopters via locking on their rotors .

    thegopnik wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:
    thegopnik wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:I am wondering why the "situational awareness" aspect is Always considered inferior for the su-57.

    Russians made it clear that they aim for as much quality in sensors and Sensor fusion as lockheed , apart feom that , there's little data , and what little data there is points heavily at the su-57 being excellent in that

    The current DAS sounds like failure in comparison to the MIRES due to the fact that talks of DIRCM for F-35 began in 2006 and still to this day it has not been implemented which makes it look like the current situational awareness on the F-35 was not good enough to use lasers yet. DIRCM was mounted because the radars, infrared and UV vision worked well enough for the laser system to hit incoming missiles for the Su-57. The current radars are overdue for the Su-57 since 2009, so I am sure the new avionics includes new radars among other sensors for better situational awareness engagement against incoming missiles and I am sure this will be better than the next gen DAS.

    you have stated an interesting point , new radars already made it in , as the Sh121(N036) is now renamed Sh121M. Which means that very significant changes were made from 2009 to 2016/17.
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    Jesus Christ this forum has drawn a lot of interesting users lately, thank you for that information. Shocked

    thank you very much , any time , friend!

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    Post  Atmosphere Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:51 pm

    This may be surprising but i am fairly convinced that that the Su-57 can carry 4 R-77M's per bay.
    by pure logic , each bay is over 1 m wide , and each R-77M takes 0.2m of width with the surfaces folded around the motor. it makes sense to have 0.8m taken by the missiles , the rest goes to space. Judging how closely clumped the weapon bays on the F35 and F-22 are , there is no reason to believe it is impossible.
    This idea is especially valid considering that two 0.4m wide cruise missiles could already fit, and that placing two R-77M's per bay would mean over 60 percent of space waste , something the russians are never ok with.

    I wish i still had the weapons testing interview link that surfaced some time ago , in which they talked about carrying ''10 pieces'' internally. (makes sense , 8 x R-77M + 2 R-74 type missiles).

    Finally , the patent describes dealing with the issues of the F-22 , among of which is limited weapon bay space.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:44 am

    Gomig-21 wrote:
    thegopnik wrote:Is that 8 missile loadout real? meaning 10 missiles in total if we include the short range missiles on the sides?

    From what I've been gathering (and the other fellas/experts can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) that these are the new compact missiles being developed for the Su-57.  Compact version of the R-77.  You can clearly see they're shorter/stubbier.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 EjiKypZVoAEV2nJ?format=png&name=small

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 EjiLF9oUYAEFqNi?format=png&name=small

    And I believe @Isos had posted this pic earlier in the thread showing that compact R-77.  I think it's safe to assume there is only one reason to manufacture a compact version of that missile.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 EjiLEchU0AAGQkx?format=png&name=small

    So let me get this straight, bottom missile is r-77 which is 3.6 meters, 2nd missile r-73 which is 2.93 meters, and top missile is new missile that seems way shorter than r-73? Weapons bay length of su-57 gives 4.6 meters and if my intuition is right that new missile has to be under 2.3 meters with the intention to increase the load out because it wouldn't make sense to have the missile be shorter just to have the same load out numbers. And I am guessing it is a little wider because range is important.

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    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:37 am

    Considering how people mentionned L-band radars , an interview with GRPZ does confirm that those are fully fledged radars , and even goes to speak about it being counter stealth.

    Of course , many benefits can be noticed. Even the X-band radar range will sky rocket when you cue it with an L-band radars , making it focus its energy in a very small sector. In Essence ,it is a portable , small size nebo-M.

    There may be objections about the size and power , but:
    - this "limitation" is way too obvious for dozens of PhD scientists , if they insisted on wing slat radars , that means they found a solution. This is like the T-64 , the fact that a tank was so well armored  , carried a massive gun system , yet so lightweight meant that they found a solution Which later turned out to be composite armor.Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 Screen11

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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:32 pm

    You get lift from both the body AND the lifting surfaces, regardless of the Mach number.

    Are you sure? Take a look at how fins and supersonic wings are built...

    Are you sure... if tubes and flat surfaces all generated lift then why did it take so long to make planes?

    Surely any old tube could be used as a propeller blade and any old flat surface would do as a wing.... right?

    There is body lift at any speed if the design and AoA are adequate.

    So all those heavier than air designs only failed because they needed more angle of attack?

    At very high speeds the lift of any even small structures gets bigger and at the same time drag needs to be minimized, that is why missiles manage to fly with smaller fins or wings than other aircraft

    That is not lift that is merely a turning force. If you have you hand out the window of a moving car if you hold it flat with your palm facing down your hand cuts through the air nicely. Increase angle of attack and there is a lifting force but it is not real lift it is merely the force of the air hitting your angled hand pushing on hand and moving it... up or down. It is not a lifting aerofoil it is more like a sail.

    As you say the control surfaces on a missile are tiny and do not hold the missile in the air... unless it is a cruise missile with actual wings that do generate lift and do support the missile in the air. Normal missiles have much smaller control surfaces that are not used to keep the missile in the air, but to direct its flight by biting into the airflow over the missile. That turning force comes at the cost of flight speed so they do it as little as possible.

    The lifting force is generated by the missile's AoA, not by the rocket engine.

    While the low energy rocket motor is burning its nose up attitude generates a lift from the downward angled rocket motors exhaust... when the motor is burned out then angle of attack is used to trade speed for altitude to maintain height.

    And I believe @Isos had posted this pic earlier in the thread showing that compact R-77. I think it's safe to assume there is only one reason to manufacture a compact version of that missile.

    By staggering the missiles vertically you could mount them closer together and get more in... the large rear grid fins do retract forward.

    The issue would be where is it wired for carrying weapons and how many.

    Just like a single wing pylon might fit one bomb, but with a multiple ejector rack tandem loads of triple bomb clusters can allow 6 or 9 to be carried on one pylon depending on its weight capacity. (9 in the case of the large weapon pylons on the Tu-22M3 for instance...)

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:By staggering the missiles vertically you could mount them closer together and get more in... the large rear grid fins do retract forward.

    The issue would be where is it wired for carrying weapons and how many.

    Just like a single wing pylon might fit one bomb, but with a multiple ejector rack tandem loads of triple bomb clusters can allow 6 or 9 to be carried on one pylon depending on its weight capacity. (9 in the case of the large weapon pylons on the Tu-22M3 for instance...)

    That was my point to @LMFS. Just because they shortened an studied the millimes, doesn't necessarily mean that hey will stack them one directly behind the other but partly next to each other to naked the packing of 4 missiles per back actually work, unlike that first picture I posted of them end to end and fit completely whiteout any staggering, Who knows, maybe they still can fit the that way too. We'll just have to se but I think it's clear that type design those compact R-77s for the new su-57. Unless they are all for the wing mounted boxes ice those seem idel for those missiles. Imagine shooting Rvv-1 from the wing-mounted missile compartment. That think will be deadly,

    Hey, you know what else BFFLES the mind? That they never created a sniggle 50 caliber gun that soul fire from the back of the aircraft at the enemy who ends up with the adb=vantage of following a fighter that constantly having to doge being locked on by the none behind. Send a couple of burst of those rear-facing guns and I bet that enemy will change its trajectory or get a couple of round light through the canopy and directly in the forehead of the oikot and send hin packing. Why hasn't that invention been put to use to date yet? I'm ready to introduce it and anyone out there want to finance it" We will become instant BILLIONAIRS ELLAS!!! OF A RATHER SIMPLE IDEA THAT i CAN;T BELIEVE NO ONE HAS THOGHT ABOUT IT ALL THESE DECADES, Garry, WFT?!?!?!
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:36 pm

    I think it's pretty clear that the Su-57 can carry 4 x missiles in the main internal bays....to be more specific 4 x K-77M (Izd-180)

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 57

    That pic of the "Shorter" R-77 was made public I think in 2019 or early 2020. It's apparently just a regular R-77

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:43 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:I think it's pretty clear that the Su-57 can carry 4 x missiles in the main internal bays....to be more specific 4 x K-77M (Izd-180)

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 57

    That pic of the "Shorter" R-77 was made public I think in 2019 or early 2020. It's apparently just a regular R-77

    Nice to see you back. Your Twitter posting was slowing down, you had me worried lol. Very Happy
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    Post  thegopnik Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:05 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:I think it's pretty clear that the Su-57 can carry 4 x missiles in the main internal bays....to be more specific 4 x K-77M (Izd-180)

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 57

    That pic of the "Shorter" R-77 was made public I think in 2019 or early 2020. It's apparently just a regular R-77

    You got a video link? yandex image translate sucks? Are you saying 4 in total for both weapons bay or 4 each for internal weapons bay? If they are both different R-77s than what version is in the bottom and what version is on the top?
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    Post  LMFS Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Are you sure... if tubes and flat surfaces all generated lift then why did it take so long to make planes?

    Surely any old tube could be used as a propeller blade and any old flat surface would do as a wing.... right?

    I am sure because I researched that. A wing is a device that creates vertical lift by transferring downwards moment to the airflow. This is done because of the AoA. The proof of this: planes can fly inverted, but they cannot fly with negative AoA.

    There are symmetric and cambered airfoils. Please take a look at the profile of supersonic wings, they are normally diamond shaped and often symmetrical
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 2-Figure1-1

    That is not lift that is merely a turning force. If you have you hand out the window of a moving car if you hold it flat with your palm facing down your hand cuts through the air nicely. Increase angle of attack and there is a lifting force but it is not real lift it is merely the force of the air hitting your angled hand pushing on hand and moving it... up or down. It is not a lifting aerofoil it is more like a sail.

    Actually sails in modern ships act like aerofoils too, that is why they can sail with winds not coming from behind them...

    The hand does not bend air efficiently, it is stalled and creates mostly drag

    While the low energy rocket motor is burning its nose up attitude generates a lift from the downward angled rocket motors exhaust... when the motor is burned out then angle of attack is used to trade speed for altitude to maintain height.

    No, lift is perpendicular to the aircraft's axis, even in a climb, while the engine's thrust is parallel to the axis:
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7 - Page 8 Climb

    By staggering the missiles vertically you could mount them closer together and get more in... the large rear grid fins do retract forward.

    I made a drawing of this some time ago, with up to 6 missiles per bay, but there are some difficulties:
    > The free space in the bay is 40 cm, that is tight for two stacked AAMs like R-77 with 20 cm diameter (no clearance)
    > The ejector for the lower missiles would need to be like the one in the F-35, but then it would be in the way of the missiles stacked higher

    So I rather see up to 4 missiles per bay (they would need careful design and test because clearances would be minimal), unless they go for weapons substantially smaller than the R-77, there the range and warhead / guidance would suffer. I think the multimissile is a better solution altogether, since it allows to use up better the free depth of the bay and requires less modifications for the ejectors. It would result in the equivalent of 8 missiles per bay, so it is incomparably better than any of the other solutions in that regard.

    @Gomig-21 see above about the missile stacking topic you mentioned too.

    Cyberspec wrote:I think it's pretty clear that the Su-57 can carry 4 x missiles in the main internal bays....to be more specific 4 x K-77M (Izd-180)

    Yes, the current state of things is clear. We entertain some speculative ideas here too Wink

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