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    Talking bollocks thread #3

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:48 am

    German prisoners in the Soviet Union were not on holiday camp... most were worked the way Soviet soldiers in german captivity were worked... if there was a shortage of food for everyone then there would of course be a shortage of food for prisoners too.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:01 am

    Russian weapons are not magical.

    If you don't use them correctly they get destroyed.

    The S-300 launchers were clearly not in combat position. The radar was destroyed when it was on but the launchers were clearly not able to shoot anyway.

    The Tor was not in combat podition but in a hangar ( confused )...

    Pantsirs were alone with no assistance from other systems.

    It's funny how people on forums think a single russian system must be able to take down all NATO forces alone. That's like the only argument pro-US fanboys have to "prove" that russian systems suck.
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  TMA1 Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:07 am

    🤨 the wall of text is flagrant propaganda by some Turkish sympathizer. I'm impressed though by this forum in that it doesn't ban those with different points of view even if it goes beyond heated discussion to stuff like example above. If I had that kind of cheek in talking about the f-35 on f-16.net I would get a stern, sanctimonious reply followed quickly by a permanent ban.

    Very cool. It is like an anti-reddit.
    medo
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  medo Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:34 am

    There was no Nebo or Pantsir in Armenia or Artzakh. No

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:09 am

    medo wrote:There was no Nebo or Pantsir in Armenia or Artzakh. No

    He doesn't know how to use ponctuation in its santances, let alone about what he knows from military hardware.
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    Post  franco Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:12 am

    TMA1 wrote:🤨 the wall of text is flagrant propaganda by some Turkish sympathizer. I'm impressed though by this forum in that it doesn't ban those with different points of view even if it goes beyond heated discussion to stuff like example above. If I had that kind of cheek in talking about the f-35 on f-16.net I would get a stern, sanctimonious reply followed quickly by a permanent ban.

    Very cool. It is like an anti-reddit.

    We have a couple of designated naysayers just to keep up appearances Smile
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Empty Russia Counter Strike Weapons

    Post  calripson Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:52 am

    What you fail to consider is Russia has effective counterstrike weapons against land targets, ships, and airfields that NATO cannot counter. Armenia did not. I think NATO and Israeli probably are confident that given enough time they can overcome Russian air defenses through a variety of means and they are probably confident in a purely conventional war of achieving air superiority fairly quickly. They cannot do this in a time period to prevent massive counterstrikes by Russia up to and including nuclear weapons. You are correct that they will have an incentive to bleed Russia in places like Syria and Ukraine using proxies. It is low cost, low risk to them. Putin has a habit of leaving unresolved situations and in the process placing his personnel in harms way.
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    Post  kvs Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:German prisoners in the Soviet Union were not on holiday camp... most were worked the way Soviet soldiers in german captivity were worked... if there was a shortage of food for everyone then there would of course be a shortage of food for prisoners too.

    No amount of revisionist apologia can wash away the fact that the Nazis exterminated Soviet POWs but German POWs were
    not exterminated by the USSR. The 3.3 million Soviet POWs who died in Nazi hands were

    1) left to die from exposure without food and water

    2) used as slave labour to build Auschwitz and similar and then murdered.

    The resident Poolak asshole is indirectly trying to wash away the guilt of Pooland for the death of 100,000 Soviet POWs
    in the wake of Pooland's invasion of the USSR in 1920. Poolaks yap about those POWs dying of diseases since that
    supposedly absolves Pooland of any guilt.

    Poolaks were never treated in the murderous fashion by the Soviets and Russians like Russians were treated by Poolaks.
    Russians will never forget so Poolaks should stop trying to con Russians with revisionist drivel.

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    Post  Hole Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:40 pm

    But htese "unsolved situations" bleed western taxpayers even more. For every ruble Russia spends they have to spend 5 or even 10 bucks.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:53 pm

    See now what KVS posted is pure propaganda crap.

    The Soviets did mass execute Germans POWS, hell they raped most of the women they came across to.

    But this is really a STUPID point, working someone until they die is execution, just slow and painful as opposed to the quick relief offered by a bullet.

    The whole "But but USSR only worked them all to death they never "executed" is just beyond stupid.

    If you could ask a German POW who was starved to death, used until they dropped dead with the labor they would tell you flat out "I'd prefer the bullet"
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:15 pm

    TMA1 wrote:🤨 the wall of text is flagrant propaganda by some Turkish sympathizer. I'm impressed though by this forum in that it doesn't ban those with different points of view even if it goes beyond heated discussion to stuff like example above. If I had that kind of cheek in talking about the f-35 on f-16.net I would get a stern, sanctimonious reply followed quickly by a permanent ban.

    Very cool. It is like an anti-reddit.

    Oh that's just our resident Flat Earther

    He still hasn't mastered the skill of not hitting enter key when cursor approaches edge of the screen Cool

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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:16 pm

    Hole wrote:But htese "unsolved situations" bleed western taxpayers even more. For every ruble Russia spends they have to spend 5 or even 10 bucks.

    Had another effect - without Ukraine meant Russia gained 4M new citizens (thats how many Ukrainians left to Russia that are still not accounted for as population cause they are still classified as refugees) and plenty of new businesses and production capacities.

    Ukraine was a black hole for Russia honestly. But yes, they need to resolve the Donbass situation rather than letting it sit like how Putin has done.
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:19 pm

    calripson wrote:What you fail to consider is Russia has effective counterstrike weapons against land targets, ships, and airfields that NATO cannot counter. Armenia did not. I think NATO and Israeli probably are confident that given enough time they can overcome Russian air defenses through a variety of means and they are probably confident in a purely conventional war of achieving air superiority fairly quickly. They cannot do this in a time period to prevent massive counterstrikes by Russia up to and including nuclear weapons. You are correct that they will have an incentive to bleed Russia in places like Syria and Ukraine using proxies. It is low cost, low risk to them. Putin has a habit of leaving unresolved situations and in the process placing his personnel in harms way.

    Problem is they ignore is that they think that somehow the AD systems work separately than the RuAF and the missile forces. Maybe they dont realize that they all work in tandem. The AD systems will be facing bombardment while RuAF will launch an attack on the planes causing the attacks and the missile forces hit the locations where those planes came from. All around the same time.
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    Post  kvs Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:10 pm

    calripson wrote:What you fail to consider is Russia has effective counterstrike weapons against land targets, ships, and airfields that NATO cannot counter. Armenia did not. I think NATO and Israeli probably are confident that given enough time they can overcome Russian air defenses through a variety of means and they are probably confident in a purely conventional war of achieving air superiority fairly quickly. They cannot do this in a time period to prevent massive counterstrikes by Russia up to and including nuclear weapons. You are correct that they will have an incentive to bleed Russia in places like Syria and Ukraine using proxies. It is low cost, low risk to them. Putin has a habit of leaving unresolved situations and in the process placing his personnel in harms way.

    Hitler thought his war would be a cakewalk too.   If these deciders really think they can overwhelm Russia in conventional war terms,
    then they are beyond deluded.  They are deprived of mental capacity.

    On what basis would the USA overwhelm Russia in terms of military production?   By paying 100x more per tank than Russia?   During
    war time we have command economics and that goes for the laissez-faire toilet called the USA as we saw during WWII.   Then
    the differential comes down to physical economics and real worker productivity (both assembly line and engineers and designers).
    American workers are trash who have PC rotted brains and we will have all sorts of trannies and pedophiles promoted to management
    positions.   This workforce is 1/10 'th of the Russian one even if it is twice as large in numbers.
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Empty Perception

    Post  calripson Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:58 pm

    kvs wrote:
    calripson wrote:What you fail to consider is Russia has effective counterstrike weapons against land targets, ships, and airfields that NATO cannot counter. Armenia did not. I think NATO and Israeli probably are confident that given enough time they can overcome Russian air defenses through a variety of means and they are probably confident in a purely conventional war of achieving air superiority fairly quickly. They cannot do this in a time period to prevent massive counterstrikes by Russia up to and including nuclear weapons. You are correct that they will have an incentive to bleed Russia in places like Syria and Ukraine using proxies. It is low cost, low risk to them. Putin has a habit of leaving unresolved situations and in the process placing his personnel in harms way.

    Hitler thought his war would be a cakewalk too.   If these deciders really think they can overwhelm Russia in conventional war terms,
    then they are beyond deluded.  They are deprived of mental capacity.

    On what basis would the USA overwhelm Russia in terms of military production?   By paying 100x more per tank than Russia?   During
    war time we have command economics and that goes for the laissez-faire toilet called the USA as we saw during WWII.   Then
    the differential comes down to physical economics and real worker productivity (both assembly line and engineers and designers).
    American workers are trash who have PC rotted brains and we will have all sorts of trannies and pedophiles promoted to management
    positions.   This workforce is 1/10 'th of the Russian one even if it is twice as large in numbers.

    I did not say they actually could, I said I believe they think they could achieve air superiority and suppress Russian air defense systems. This is not the same as achieving military dominance nor does it say anything about production. The US would love to win a brief conflict with Russia either directly or via proxy, but they cannot risk kinetic conflict because it would spiral out of control. In 2008, Cheney supported bombing the Roku tunnel but he was barely overruled by military leaders. Obama's administration came very close to declaring a "no fly" zone over Syria. but once again the threat of Russian counterstrikes scared them off. The first use of Kalibr missiles from the Caspian was a not so subtle message to America, NATO, and Israel.
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Empty Yes

    Post  calripson Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:01 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    calripson wrote:What you fail to consider is Russia has effective counterstrike weapons against land targets, ships, and airfields that NATO cannot counter. Armenia did not. I think NATO and Israeli probably are confident that given enough time they can overcome Russian air defenses through a variety of means and they are probably confident in a purely conventional war of achieving air superiority fairly quickly. They cannot do this in a time period to prevent massive counterstrikes by Russia up to and including nuclear weapons. You are correct that they will have an incentive to bleed Russia in places like Syria and Ukraine using proxies. It is low cost, low risk to them. Putin has a habit of leaving unresolved situations and in the process placing his personnel in harms way.

    Problem is they ignore is that they think that somehow the AD systems work separately than the RuAF and the missile forces.  Maybe they dont realize that they all work in tandem.  The AD systems will be facing bombardment while RuAF will launch an attack on the planes causing the attacks and the missile forces hit the locations where those planes came from.  All around the same time.
    ]]

    I think that is what I just said.

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:32 pm

    no calripson you bring up good points. they certainly are trying to bleed Russia.

    i am trying to find the pdf. some western think tank (RAND I think) was listing goals to overwhelm Russia thru these conflicts. disturbing is that most of the conflicts that have been happening were listed in this paper in chronological order and one of them listed was exploiting tensions between the Azeri and Armenian peoples. found this site that discusses it. pretty disturbing.

    https://greekcitytimes com/2020/09/30/us-air-force-affiliated-think-tank-calls-for-washington-to-exploit-tensions-in-the-south-caucasus-armenia/

    they are trying to overextend Russia and also tank the fossil fuel markets. Russia has been doing good in trying to diversify it's markets but still this isn't helping them. they have to stay in Syria to block the attempt to build the oil pipeline from mid-east thru to Turkey. Libya is also important. Russia apparently felt that they can lay low on this Azeri/Armenian crisis and have not taken the bait. essentially allowing Azeris to take the contested lands while sending in peacekeepers to protect Armenia.

    I loathe my country's foreign policy in regards to Russia and China. we refuse to allow Russia to be even a high level regional power or low level world power. what we do allow though is for China to slowly supplant us and dominate East Asia. pisses me off. angry  No
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    Post  TMA1 Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:34 pm

    sorry I couldn't finish the link. just add the period to it.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:02 am

    If you could ask a German POW who was starved to death, used until they dropped dead with the labor they would tell you flat out "I'd prefer the bullet"

    They had the choice... simply try to run and you will get your bullet...

    The only country worse regarding prisoners of war than the Germans was the Japanese.

    The Germans decided that the rules of war did not apply to Soviet prisoners so most were merely worked to death on minimal or zero rations.

    German prisoners were fed because they had a lot of work to do...
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:41 am

    The main failure of the west is that they forget that their mighty air power is needed for both attack and defence, and they are not really very capable at defence because they rarely get the opportunity... the only enemies they have fought with any capacity to shoot back was against Saddam in Desert Storm with his Scuds which seemed to be unstoppable despite news channel claims that the Patriot stopped them effectively enough... which we now know is a lie... and more recently when Iran warned that they were going to respond by hitting US bases with ballistic weapons which they did... which the US made little or no attempt to stop... which is interesting because they didn't choose not to stop the attack by choice... they couldn't stop it.

    The US would love to win a brief conflict with Russia either directly or via proxy, but they cannot risk kinetic conflict because it would spiral out of control.

    What they don't realise is that Russia is well defended, but also has the independent capacity to attack.... they aren't the starship enterprise... they don't have to drop their shields to launch weapon attacks on the enemy...

    Even if the HATO forces mounted an initial attack, the defence is rather strong and would likely be followed up with a response that will be directed at crippling the striking force but also directed at the HQs that delivered that strike... something Iraqi and Iranian ballistic weapons have never been able to threaten... and if they could honestly I rather doubt either country would have suffered the attention from the west that they have both suffered....

    no calripson you bring up good points. they certainly are trying to bleed Russia.

    I agree that is their intention, but in actual fact the result is not a weakening, but a strengthening... Russia is getting to test weapons and training and equipment and in the field it is also making a difference in conflicts for allies and enemies alike... I would suggest western media propaganda is not as effective in the ME as it used to be because they are seeing what effect Russian troops have over US troops in the regions they operate in.

    I loathe my country's foreign policy in regards to Russia and China. we refuse to allow Russia to be even a high level regional power or low level world power. what we do allow though is for China to slowly supplant us and dominate East Asia. pisses me off.

    It is like the 1990s... the west could have helped Russia out of an economic and social hole and been a good friend... instead it went in there and asset stripped everything it could... lots of westerners made billions and are now pissed off because all those resources and potential earning is now lost to them...

    In Russia democracy is a dirty word... thanks to American and western greed... I wonder why they don't want the American dream any more?

    China will continue to grow and the US will try to control them, but China does not want to be controlled any more than Russia does... so that is going to fail too...


    Note a lot of the stuff on this thread recently is way off topic so I will spend some time to decide where to move it to... any suggestions welcome...
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:18 pm

    [quote="Backman"]
    limb wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by or AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.
    republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.
    And yes. China has good 5g. But that is consumer electronics. Consumer goods is China's strength. Mass produced consumer goods.

    Military is a whole different ball game. It's not mass produced. The economics of military equipment is just different. Just because China has good consumer electronics doesn't mean it's good at military.


    Not only consumer electronics but also things like space technology, super computers. China can send rover to the Mars and sample collector back from the moon. Russia can't. As far as warships, only 2 Russian warships, the Gorshkov frigates, can compete with Type 052D and Type 055 in terms of technology, not to mention Chinese carriers which are equipped with AESA make the Russian carrier look vintage.
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    Post  Backman Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:28 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    Backman wrote:
    limb wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by or AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.
    republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.
    And yes. China has good 5g. But that is consumer electronics. Consumer goods is China's strength. Mass produced consumer goods.

    Military is a whole different ball game. It's not mass produced. The economics of military equipment is just different. Just because China has good consumer electronics doesn't mean it's good at military.


    Not only consumer electronics but also things like space technology, super computers. China can send rover to the Mars and sample collector back from the moon. Russia can't. As far as warships, only 2 Russian warships, the Gorshkov frigates, can compete with Type 052D and Type 055 in terms of technology, not to mention Chinese carriers which are equipped with AESA make the Russian carrier look vintage.

    Nobody's under estimating China. China is an emerging superpower. Russia is a retired superpower. But Russia retained much of its legacy from the USSR days in a few areas.

    Russia still has the only other worldwide GPS system (GLONASS) that your phone is most likely capable of connecting to. The EU and Chinese systems still don't have the coverage of GLONASS.

    Russia has 39 civil nuclear power plants on export. China has 15. The US has 2.

    Russia earned its space credentials a long time ago.

    The Venera program was the name given to a series of space probes developed by the Soviet Union between 1961 and 1984 to gather information about the planet Venus. Ten probes successfully landed on the surface of the planet, including the two Vega program and Venera-Halley probes, while thirteen probes successfully entered the Venusian atmosphere.

    And (Atlas 2 has a Russian engine)

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Cbff15b31b5b471833cb3fde4e750464

    China cant do this:

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 RadiantHollowDouglasfirbarkbeetle-size_restricted

    A video released by Russia's defense ministry showed the submarine firing a salvo of four of the missiles within seconds of each other.

    The missiles, which have been tested from submarines before but never in a salvo of four, can each carry six to 10 independently targetable nuclear warheads with an explosive yield of 100 to 150 kilotons, according to The Diplomat. That means that together the missiles fired by Russia had a minimum combined explosive potential of 2,400 kilotons, or about 160 times the destructive force that hit Hiroshima.

    Russia's cruise missiles have longer range than China's.

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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:14 am

    Backman wrote:
    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    Backman wrote:
    limb wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:The J-20 is hyped by or AESA radar and Russian kit is totally outdated. Ridiculous.
    republics after promising Gorbachev they wouldn't expand East.
    And yes. China has good 5g. But that is consumer electronics. Consumer goods is China's strength. Mass produced consumer goods.

    Military is a whole different ball game. It's not mass produced. The economics of military equipment is just different. Just because China has good consumer electronics doesn't mean it's good at military.


    Not only consumer electronics but also things like space technology, super computers. China can send rover to the Mars and sample collector back from the moon. Russia can't. As far as warships, only 2 Russian warships, the Gorshkov frigates, can compete with Type 052D and Type 055 in terms of technology, not to mention Chinese carriers which are equipped with AESA make the Russian carrier look vintage.

    Russia earned its space credentials a long time ago.

    The Venera program was the name given to a series of space probes developed by the Soviet Union between 1961 and 1984 to gather information about the planet Venus. Ten probes successfully landed on the surface of the planet, including the two Vega program and Venera-Halley probes, while thirteen probes successfully entered the Venusian atmosphere.

    And (Atlas 2 has a Russian engine)

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Cbff15b31b5b471833cb3fde4e750464

    Incorrect to say it was Russia that did the space achievements. It was USSR. More than half of the people in USSR did not  live in Russia. As for space, China is making new frontiers. For example the first autonomous docking in moon orbit was completed by China's Chang'e 5 yesterday. If Russia does not engage in space then Russia will lose out in the new space race. Simple.

    Same goes for Su-57. Russia can build 100 Su-57 prototypes if it wants, but without a single production Su-57 it's all for naught. On the other hand, China already built dozens of production J-20 which flew later than Su-57 did.
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:17 pm

    [quote="Backman"][quote="Tai Hai Chen"]
    miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42
    My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

    Su-35 clearly a step below J-20. The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies. On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden. As for why China bought Su-35, could be a sign of friendship. Let's be honest. With CAATSA coming into play in 2017, no country other than China and Russia will ever buy Su-35. Egypt placed the order before CAATSA so other than Egypt, China, Russia, there won't be another country that will ever operate Su-35. Indonesia already dropped the Su-35 deal post CAATSA. So rather than dissing China buying Su-35, Russians should be grateful. After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils. Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 17839462-7407311-image-a-65_1567093979864

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 8ecc91489917a6019b1fb109f459049a
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:30 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    Backman wrote:
    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Well, the J-20 is a clear rip off of Russian MiG 1.42
    My main issue with the J-20 is the politics of it. China claims it's in mass production and in service and the Americans take them at their word. When there's no real evidence of either. And while China buys su 35's and sends them to the South China sea.

    Su-35 clearly a step below J-20. The lack of internal weapons bays and AESA and DSI are 3 biggies. On top of that, J-20 HUD makes Su-35 HUD looks like kindergarden. As for why China bought Su-35, could be a sign of friendship. Let's be honest. With CAATSA coming into play in 2017, no country other than China and Russia will ever buy Su-35. Egypt placed the order before CAATSA so other than Egypt, China, Russia, there won't be another country that will ever operate Su-35. Indonesia already dropped the Su-35 deal post CAATSA. So rather than dissing China buying Su-35, Russians should be grateful. After all, the pathetically weak Russian navy is no match for Japan staking its claim against the Kurils. Considering Russia lacks a single modern destroyer and has no aircraft carrier in operation, it is the powerful Chinese navy armed with dozens of modern destroyers that prevent Japan's ruling right wing liberal democratic party from invading the Kurils.

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 17839462-7407311-image-a-65_1567093979864

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 8ecc91489917a6019b1fb109f459049a

    all that stealth. But with antedeluvian engines...

    Also, the only thing that prevents the Japanese from invading the Kurils a rerun of Hiroshima. Not some Chinese benevolence.

    miketheterrible likes this post


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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 21 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

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