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    Talking bollocks thread #3

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:You don't see that...how? Because they don't make it mandentory to speak it?  Or they don't fund and promote schools that are self segregated schools of only that language?  Fuck off.  That is the definition of self segregation. Not promoting diversity.  Give people the option.  If they don't want to fund and learn it in their regions, then I guess the language is as good as dead.

    Nothing stops these people practicing their beliefs and language either.  Fuck, all I saw on vesti news was bullshit diversity crap. Fuck, even Chechnya is mostly just Chechen schools where Russian is mandatory but so is Chechen.  They decided that. Russian government isn't stopping that.  It's up to the region's to fund it. Making Russian language mandentory is obvious and Soviets did that too. Till they started with the "Ukrainian" hillbilly language.

    We did the nonsense of allowing the force of learning Inuit language which sounds like someone choking a duck, in Nunivut and they are only 40,000 people. But guess what, most speak that there now and communication is a bitch. Go to Quebec and it's worst. My friend is sailing through the rivers of Quebec and before he does he has to fill out a French document in French. In fucking Canada.

    I'm glad rest of Russia doesn't feel the way you do. Or you will end up like us

    As for the Muslims. How they operate in Russia is how they operate everywhere. They are like that. Since your bullshit of diversity allowed them to flourish there, it's now your mess. I don't disagree with Poland's methods tbh.  At least they keep an identity and stick to it.  You Russians can't make up your mind and as someone does (Putin) many of you lot cry. Yet the minorities love him.

    I just read an article how a black woman feels free in Russia compared to USA (this was USA today article which screwed with me mentally since something good to be said about Russia in a us magazine was a shocker). So it must not be bad for minorities like liberals claim

    Problem is various regions have different capabilities, monetary ones, as well as leverage against the centre. The federal government should take it upon itself to decide this problem, provide native language schools for all who request them. Simple as. And in that way, be an example for the rest of the ex-Soviet bloc where more regressive policies are followed.
    Right now we have a slow emigration of Kazakhs to Kazakhstan because all their schools were turned into Russian-language ones. They make up a lot of people, 1-2 million in Russia, but are spread out and concentrated in certain regions, they don't have their own republic to build schools for them. Kazakhstan could build schools for them, and fill their heads with pan-Turkic ideology; which is not particularly desirable. And why should a foreign country have to provide for Russia's own citizens? This will only strengthen their loyalty to Kazakhstan if it does take place, not to Russia.

    What do you mean diversity BS? The USSR's population was 33% Muslim, and most weren't that religious or religious but in a mild form; no Middle East BS there. Even Chechnya, was largely secular back then.
    Again it depends on the social order. Whatever the social order - such are the people.
    It's actually modern Russia's problem. It fuels both Russian chauvinism, and Muslim identity at the same time, all these competing business clans.
    I have no problem with mosques or people practicing their religion, but I do have a problem with these clans and Islamic lobbies and so on; they're in it for their own interests.
    Kadyrov invites various UAE, Qatar, Saudi emissaries to each new grand mosque built in Chechnya. The last one built was particularly exquisite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiTxHWBVXI4

    But of course Putin thinks that he has everything under control, that via Kadyrov he can in turn exercise influence on these Gulf Arab monarchies and so on. And he's right, he does have it under control. While he's around. But he won't be around forever, regardless of his plans to declare himself Tsar for life; and at that point the tables can rapidly be turned on Russia.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:29 pm

    flamming_python wrote:...making native language lessons in the schools of various republics non-obligatory for Russians...

    As it should be

    Do Latvians force their own people to learn Russian?

    Do Turks force their own people to learn Kurdish?

    Do Greeks force their own people to learn Turkish?

    Do Chinese force their own people to learn Uighur?

    It's mind-boggling that this abomination existed for so long



    flamming_python wrote:...their own histories of statehood...

    Tribalism is not statehood

    Any region east of Volga that would try to secede would never be anything more than poor man's version of Kyrgyzstan

    There is a reason why Central Asia is a shithole and always will be, economy doesn't care about ''culture''

    Without support system of a civilized nation it will be nothing more than a primitive wasteland same as Rockies in North America or Tibet in China



    flamming_python wrote:...Policies of assimilation always backfire as the Russian Empire and then Soviet Union learned...

    Policies of assimilation in USSR worked perfectly: all Russians in Ex-Soviet states have been completely assimilated by local population as was the plan of the CPUSSR



    flamming_python wrote:...Except that all throughout the ex-USSR you still have people that uphold Soviet identity...

    What parallel realty do you live in?

    Russia is the only place in existence where these degenerate traitors still exist, all other nations have purged this



    flamming_python wrote:...The only solution is the creation of an overarching new identity on top of everyone's present ones. One that is not tied to native culture, language, religion; but is capable of respecting all of those. This is an identity of the social order, of the achievements of all people's working together....

    This freak show was already tried and failed miserably and you want to do it again?

    How many of their own people are Russian commies willing to throw in the mass grave in the service of their socialist cult? (rhetorical question, history has showed that they are willing to kill every last Russian in the name of messiah Marx)


    Anyway this whole mess if off-topic, mods should move these genocidal treasonous commie ramblings to Talking Bollocks tread


    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:...making native language lessons in the schools of various republics non-obligatory for Russians...

    As it should be

    Do Latvians force their own people to learn Russian?

    Do Turks force their own people to learn Kurdish?

    Do Greeks force their own people to learn Turkish?

    Do Chinese force their own people to learn Uighur?

    It's Latvian land, so no they shouldn't force their own people to learn Russian. But having some Russian-language lessons or some schools at least for Russians can't hurt.
    The f*ck is the division between Russians and Latvians anyway? Only the social order that the Latvian elites have themselves constructed, and the paranoia about a Russian invasion.
    But if Russia does invade for no reason, then the fault lies with Russia, not with how Latvian society is ordered. That I can't blame the Latvians for in all honesty. But still, they should respect the Russian language and try to build up a unified society with it included.

    No the Turks don't force their own people to learn Kurdish, they call the Kurds Mountain Turks, force them to learn only Turkish and have been fighting a brutal war against Kurdish seperatists for 50 years, while enforcing a social order of militant nationalism on their own population; that then works wonders when these Turks emigrate to Europe.
    A war that could probably have been avoided I should say, if the Turks thought up of something smarter, instead of hardcore Turk nationalism and assimilation.
    During the days of the Ottoman Empire, Islam united the Turks and the Kurds and the Kurds served as some of the Sultan's most loyal troops. Of course with the collapse of that empire, the Turks were left with a much reduced territory, while the religious idealism that guided the empire naturally collapsed with it, so the Turks needed something new. They set about towards a course of ethnocracy and naturally the Kurds were alienated and adopted the same mindset, dressed up later in the colors of socialism thanks to Soviet support for the PKK, but the essence remained the same; it was tribal warfare. Kurds now cause as many problems in Europe as Turks do.
    Although the decisions of the Turks were logical I can't help but think that socialism should have been tried for instead, and if it failed - just let the Kurds seperate. Who needs these problems.

    About Greeks and Turks I don't know, my impression is that they all just ethnically cleansed each other from everywhere already.

    The Chinese should probably institute some Uighur lessons for Chinese in Uighurstan, and grant the Uighurs the freedom to practice their religion without restrictions. At the end of the day this will facilitate the movement of the Uighur people towards China, not drive them away and make them more and more conscious of their ethnic and religious identity which is what's happening now.

    It's mind-boggling that this abomination existed for so long

    It's mind-boggling how some people think that forced assimilation measures can still work in the 21st century and won't lead to greater blowbacks than the benefits of what they were trying to achieve. Unfortunately some people clearly do think so.


    Tribalism is not statehood

    Any region east of Volga that would try to secede would never be anything more than poor man's version of Kyrgyzstan

    You might think that but China's economic output is now creating its own dynamics. Russia should think about its own model of statehood and its plan of economic development carefully before potentially drawing constituent people's to think that maybe they can benefit by serving as a fulcrum between Russia and China, and do a better job at preserving their own cultures and languages while at it.

    There is a reason why Central Asia is a shithole and always will be, economy doesn't care about ''culture''

    Without support system of a civilized nation it will be nothing more than a primitive wasteland same as Rockies in North America or Tibet in China

    The era of greatest Central Asian prosperity was probably during the Silk Road. That's China to the Middle East, and China to Europe for you. The Middle East is also rising up economically. So again I would be careful with your self-assured predictions. A classic symptom of imperial hubris.

    Of course if the NATO-Turkey plan of inciting pan-Turkic sentiment in Central Asia succeeds, then it will be aimed at China first and foremost, although it won't mean anything good for Russia either. It would also mean however, that the Silk Road will have to go through Russia instead; at least for what concerns China-Europe.

    flamming_python wrote:
    Policies of assimilation in USSR worked perfectly: all Russians in Ex-Soviet states have been completely assimilated by local population as was the plan of the CPUSSR

    In regards to the Caucasus/Asian states, in most of them Russians have been chased out by elites paranoid about them being wielded as a tool by Moscow.
    Still there's a considerable community left in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, while Kazakhstan is still full of them and the entire kaleidiscope of other ex-Soviet ethnicities too; who for most intents and purposes can be counted as Russians as their greatest threat to survival is Kazakh nationalism, that Moscow is capable of tempering for the time being.

    As for the others; Moldova still has plenty, the Baltics still have plenty, the Ukraine still has tons. They have not been assimilated. In some cases they have adopted the identities of their parent states. But that's normal, the main thing is that their language is not under serious assault. In East Ukraine where it is, and the people there are conscious of the fact that they live on their own land and not someone else's - there is a lot of discontent.

    What parallel realty do you live in?

    Russia is the only place in existence where these degenerate traitors still exist, all other nations have purged this

    Not at all. In fact most of the Soviet patriots I have found in real life and the internet are not ethnic Russians and/or are not from Russia.

    This freak show was already tried and failed miserably and you want to do it again?

    How many of their own people are Russian commies willing to throw in the mass grave in the service of their socialist cult? (rhetorical question, history has showed that they are willing to kill every last Russian in the name of messiah Marx)

    What you have to understand is that Russia and in fact the entire ex-Soviet world, is now going through the 'Bourbon syndrome'.

    Much as how the Bourbon monarchy was reinstated in France following Napoleon, capitalism and autocrat splendor has been reinstated in the ex-USSR. And people are increasingly conscious of the fact, that all these revivals of national identities, rewrittings of histories, funding of religions, etc... all these new mosques, cathedrals, statues, parades, etc... bring nothing more for them materially, in fact only causing bloodshed, while their rulers and upper classes are enriching themselves beyond belief, while keeping an atmosphere of social repression. This repression is weakest in Russia out of all these countries, but it's still there and the anticipation is we have no control over our destinies and all tools for feedback towards the elite are themselves owned by the elites and failing to fulfill their functions.

    In other words much in the same manner as how the Bourbon dynasty started to repeat the same material conditions and social contradictions that led to the 1st French Revolution in the first place, so too are we.

    And the fact is that Trotsky predicted this about the USSR, and many socialists pretty much predicted the character of counter-revolution.
    And now we're all reverting to things that have been tried before and have met their failure. Russian chauvinism, Ukrainian Nazism, Baltic Nazism, Pan-Turkism (Golden Horde). Radical Islamism has now been knocked out of the game I suspect for a good while, now that people have seen with their own eyes its inevitable conclusion (ISIS).

    That the first attempt at creating a fundamentally new type of society failed means rather nothing to me. The 1st French Revolution inevitably led to anarchy, debate, and contradictory decisions - then Napoleon appearing on the horizon, declaring 'The revolution is over. I am the revolution'. Who then proceeded to implement the revolution entirely by himself, as he himself understood it - and all the yearnings, social changes and ideas that constitute a revolution. In any revolution there are plenty of them, and 1 man no matter who cannot possibly understand and appease all of them. Napeoleon failed, the monarchy was reinstalled, the monarchy repeated the previous monarchies mistakes, the monarchy was replaced by a constitutional monarchy - a borgouise-aristocrat union, the borgouise-aristocrat union failed and was finally replaced with a full-on borgouise republic.

    We've had our revolution, we've had our Napoleon (Stalin) and our 1st 'republic'. We've had our monarchy reinstalled, and initially completely friendly to the West as intended. 'Alas', our monarchy is now repeating the previous monarchies' mistakes.
    The most logical progression is to try for a borgouise - proletariat union.
    Putin has served beautifully in this regard, completely isolating the Russian borgouise/oligarchs from the borgouise internationale (the West). Now our rulers and elites, have no-one else to turn to, but their own people if they want support for the coming confrontation.

    As for Marx, understand one simple thing. Some people might regard him as a prophet, but that's only due to the influence of Marxist-Leninism which was a specific rewrite of Marxism intented to attempt to install socialism in a backwards feudal society.
    In reality he's just a person who wrote a bunch of what I consider scientific papers. And although his logic in places has been criticized in the 150 years since, and there is scope for correction - his premises have not been abrogated. No-one has managed to form a better theory of social-economic progression or disprove his despite his books having been written in the mid 19th century.
    All that we've had since is the sort of ideological, borgouise, liberal/Christian-value claptrap that exactly Marx called out for what it was in his own time.

    That you view this current borgouise-capitalist mess, and the regurgitation of backward social orders, empires and ideologies in the world ad naseum - as the final end point of civilizational development, is your problem PD. Personally I think you are just lacking a little imagination.
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:25 am

    @Flaming Python

    WOW...I know you were leaning towards communism but now I know you're a full blown Bolshevik Cool

    If I'm reading Putin's recent statements correctly, I think he is planning on recovering lost Russian lands sooner or later (as he should). Although I think he is aiming to do it peacefully without bloodshed
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:29 am

    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python

    WOW...I know you were leaning towards communism but now I know you're a full blown Bolshevik Cool

    If I'm reading Putin's recent statements correctly, I think he is planning on recovering lost Russian lands sooner or later (as he should). Although I think he is aiming to do it peacefully without bloodshed

    I am a socialist but I'm also a Russian patriot and I see our mad Tsar as steering the country towards collapse.
    So why not reinstitute socialism as part of the economy and save the country at the same time? Cool

    Putin should do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Apart from defending the people of the Donbass republics. He has already proven his inadequacy and Russian rule is not enticing for anyone. Why should it be. The same oligarchs.

    What needs to happen now, in theory, is the re-establishment of Soviets by the people in all major Russian cities and federal subjects. Linking up with socialists in other ex-Soviet states to get them to attempt the same. With any luck, the people of the Ukraine, particularly east Ukraine will catch the example. A show of people power, and then the dialogue can begin, both internal, and with the federal, regional and other ex-Soviet elites.
    But still, there is time for someone sane to come to power, who the people can actually talk to, instead of just serving as an intellectual vanguard and shoving ideology down everyone's throats.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:39 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python

    WOW...I know you were leaning towards communism but now I know you're a full blown Bolshevik Cool

    If I'm reading Putin's recent statements correctly, I think he is planning on recovering lost Russian lands sooner or later (as he should). Although I think he is aiming to do it peacefully without bloodshed

    I am a socialist but I'm also a Russian patriot and I see our mad Tsar as steering the country towards collapse.
    So why not reinstitute socialism as part of the economy and save the country at the same time? Cool

    Putin should do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Apart from defending the people of the Donbass republics. He has already proven his inadequacy and Russian rule is not enticing for anyone. Why should it be. The same oligarchs.

    What needs to happen now, in theory, is the re-establishment of Soviets by the people in all major Russian cities and federal subjects. Linking up with socialists in other ex-Soviet states to get them to attempt the same. With any luck, the people of the Ukraine, particularly east Ukraine will catch the example. A show of people power, and then the dialogue can begin, both internal, and with the federal, regional and other ex-Soviet elites.

    That was some Tolkien level of fantasy there my guy

    Your "mad Tzar" took a corpse of a communist hellhole and converted it into a viable nation

    If a country needs socialism in order to exist then that country shouldn't​ exist

    As for other Ex-Soviet countries I would like to point out once again that population of those countries sees Russians as subhumans that need to be exterminated and that best and only course of action is to be ready to exterminate them first (and to not pussy out as always once the moment comes)



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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:11 am

    @Flaming Python

    A Marxist-Leninist-Trockyist cannot be a Russian Patriot by definition...it's mutually exclusive

    If Putin is so bad and going mad as you say, why aren't you communists overthrowing him and re-establishing the Soviet/Trockyist utopia ?

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:42 am

    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python

    A Marxist-Leninist-Trockyist cannot be a Russian Patriot by definition...it's mutually exclusive

    If Putin is so bad and going mad as you say, why aren't you communists overthrowing him and re-establishing the Soviet/Trockyist utopia ?

    A patriot is simply one who loves his country and his people, and nationalism is not necessary to achieve it. I believe in the prosperity of my own country through socialism and internationalism.
    As for labels, I don't ascribe myself one but I am closest to Marxism, while also taking a lot from Marxist-Leninism and a good deal from Trotsky's writings. Some of the Stalinist principles cannot be discarded either.

    I get your point, but I honestly don't see such a big contradiction here. If humanity ever gets to the theoretical stage of full-on communism, then states will no longer be necessary - we can give ours up too. But that may be hundreds of years away, and particular to a mindset as far removed from our own as our ancestors in hunter-gatherer tribes were to that of today's nation states. So I don't worry about it too much. Whatever the surroundings, the society, the material conditions - that is how the consciousness of a human being will operate. We are in the era of nation states, and the stage of socialism requires worker's states as much as the era of capitalism requires nation states. We can't know any different.

    For now states are a fact, Russia is a fact, and a progressive social-economic system can demonstrate to the rest of the world what is possible.
    This is the strategy, of what I think should be the 5th workers international. If the 1st international was that of naive competition by workers against massive industrial forces (Paris Commune), the 2nd internationale was that of world revolution (Lenin), the 3rd international was that of socialist imperialism (Stalinism and Maoism), the 4th Trotsky one was that of permanent revolution (no direct offspring but indirectly influenced Maoism, the character of Cuban and Vietnamese socialism and many other attempts in ex-colonial nations and South America).
    The 5th internationale should rather be about setting an example via a state where the proletariat have at least partial control of the economy.

    In my mind what is exclusive is nationalism and socialism. A nationalist is a patriot who advocates a specific form of social organization and system of foreign relations, whether ethnocratic or civil based nationalism, but either way based on the premise of superiority of one's state economic interests at the expense of those of others. So necessarily a hierarchy.
    And you can't organize proletarian rule under such a system as then this state will quickly turn internationalist. It's relations with other countries in this case will necessarily be guided by the economic needs of the state's workers intertwining and expanding economic relations with the workers of other countries, on the basis of parity.
    So a nationalist state is necessarily capitalist and must organize an internal social hierarchy too of proletariat at the bottom and borgouise at the top.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 am

    PapaDragon wrote:That was some Tolkien level of fantasy there my guy

    Your "mad Tzar" took a corpse of a communist hellhole and converted it into a viable nation

    If a country needs socialism in order to exist then that country shouldn't​ exist

    As for other Ex-Soviet countries I would like to point out once again that population of those countries sees Russians as subhumans that need to be exterminated and that best and only course of action is to be ready to exterminate them first (and to not pussy out as always once the moment comes)

    Says the Serb unshaven

    That my friend, is why Balkan peoples can't have nice things. You guys make the Caucasus look positively civilized in comparison.
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:19 am

    Papa is right. Just look at our "brothers" the Ukrainians. They want you dead. Communists cries the loudest but Russia is on the right path and it's obvious now. Communism died on its own due to it being shit. Had it's good moments but that's all.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:43 am

    flamming_python wrote:...You guys make the Caucasus look positively civilized in comparison.

    It's safe to say that everyone including folks from Caucasus would greatly disagree

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    Post  Regular Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:13 pm

    It's funny to hear FP complain about Putin and then listen exact reversal from my friends who complain that he is not fulfilling nationalist promises and that Putin is part of globalist elite.

    I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:17 pm

    Regular wrote:It's funny to hear FP complain about Putin and then listen exact reversal from my friends who complain that he is not fulfilling nationalist promises and that Putin is part of globalist elite.

    I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.

    Stagnation in what? China holds the status quo and it works. Russia can do the same.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:24 pm

    Regular wrote:I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.

    USA was maintaining status quo for decades and they didn't stagnate, same goes for EU

    They both started stagnating once they decided to abandon status quo

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    Post  Regular Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:46 pm

    China - no, they are developing fast even if they make mistakes left and right, but atleast they are moving forward. They are slowing down, but not stopping. But Us does stagnate and they even started to regress.

    But I am talking about political stagnation in Russia. Times are moving and Russia needs new blood. Probably FP can tell you better than me, but there is no one representing his political spectrum in Russian government. There are few dying old communists used for a show. What socialist ideas can be proposed by these half dead people? Government mandated funerals would be only thing relevant for them. And not just socialists, there are plenty of people who are disfranchised and simple have no representation.

    How whole Russian political system is set up now- you either choose Putin or you choose liberal clowns. And the more retarded opposition is the better.

    Yous are telling me that through whole Russia there were no equal candidates to Putin?
    And how come Russian political parties are so retarded and have so many people covered in dirt?
    How are you supposed to get rid of corruption when they all play in the same team?

    I am biaded, but it seems that big majority of Russian politicians are no different than others, they are fucking pigs who have even less to answer than before. Don't need to go far from Moscow. How many of them have children are studying and living abroad? Why is this still a thing? Why punishment for corruption is so low than common thieves are punished more than that.



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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:16 pm

    Regular wrote:...Probably FP can tell you better than me, but there is no one representing his political spectrum in Russian government. There are few dying old communists used for a show. What socialist ideas can be proposed by these half dead people?

    That political spectrum has been overrepresented for almost a century and 95% of things it did was absolute fuckup with a healthy serving of genocide against Russian population in favor of minorities especially in other Soviet states

    They are overrepresented even now, realistically communism shouldn't even exist as a concept, it's been completely and fully discredited

    Half dead people for fully dead ideas, they are still doing better than expected but hopefully it will decompose fully soon enough



    Regular wrote:...Yous are telling me that through whole Russia there were no equal candidates to Putin?

    Yes there are but not among Communists

    Other candidates will come around eventually



    Regular wrote:...And how come Russian political parties are so retarded and have so many people covered in dirt?

    This isn't Russian issue, it happens all over the world

    Same thing here in Serbia, there is no opposition of any relevance because they are so corrupt and discredited that nobody would ever vote for them anymore

    Those who are not have pretty much the same gameplan as current government






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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:41 pm

    Sorry PD I'm afraid your fantasies of a pan-Orthodox genocidal union will have to wait. Wait for at least quite a while, actually.

    There is socialism that needs to be rebuilt What a Face

    Regular wrote:It's funny to hear FP complain about Putin and then listen exact reversal from my friends who complain that he is not fulfilling nationalist promises and that Putin is part of globalist elite.

    I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.

    How can Putin possibly be part of the globalist elite if that same globalist elite is the one that's trying to topple him, overthrow and arm regimes against him, spread propaganda against him and so on?

    Doesn't make any sense.

    He's part of the Russian national borgouise and he's in opposition to the borgouise internationale. As is Trump, a fellow nationalist borgouise (American), and he's also the target of an operation to topple him.

    As for Putin, could be that you're right. He may just be trying to survive. But his policy of education reform that has led to increasing russification, his statements about Lenin laying a bomb under the foundation of Russia by recognizing the states and autonomous rights of other peoples, his ties with Kadyrov who is in favour of abolishing republics and making all regions answer to the centre, the current talk of optimizing Russian development by battling with regional elites to centralize all control over autonomies, etc... do suggest to me otherwise.

    Well can't say for sure. He's afraid of leaving power, we know that much. If he had done it long ago it wouldn't have been an issue, but the dirt has been building up. It's true that his ratings are tanking and he needs to say and do anything at this point to keep them up. And I'm not sure his farce of a referendum has helped; even if he's fooled some ordinary people he's completely alienated anyone with a head on their shoulders. He's becoming quite a toxic individual for those in the elite circles to associate themselves with, I'd imagine. I don't exclude the possibility of a palace coup.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:39 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Sorry PD I'm afraid your fantasies of a pan-Orthodox genocidal union will have to wait. Wait for at least quite a while, actually.

    There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math



    flamming_python wrote:There is socialism that needs to be rebuilt What a Face

    And they say commies don't have a sense of humor lol1

    Still at least North Korea is holding down the fort

    I don't think there are enough Russians left alive to have another go at socialism plus during last 20 years Russians grew accustomed to having more than one meal per day so some other country will have to volunteer to be patsy this time


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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Sorry PD I'm afraid your fantasies of a pan-Orthodox genocidal union will have to wait. Wait for at least quite a while, actually.

    There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math

    Remember what happened in WW1?

    Suddenly 'our team' (Britain, France, USA) became the enemy team, while our old enemy team were defeated anyway, and had short lived revolutions themselves (Germany, Hungary)

    Things don't go to plan, when you start bloodletting over political differences and 'teams'. Especially when you can see that people on the other teams are in the same position. One starts getting their own ideas in regards to who is telling him what enemies to kill and for what benefit of their own.

    I don't think there are enough Russians left alive to have another go at socialism plus during last 20 years Russians grew accustomed to having more than one meal per day so some other country will have to volunteer to be patsy this time

    I don't think there are enough Russians to go for a full-scale revolution either. Nor is this desirable as a revolution is a destructive process. I've already said all this.
    The strategy must be different.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:...There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math

    Remember what happened in WW1?...

    Of course, everyone does

    You guys folded like lawn chairs couple of months before victory, betrayed your allies, allowed enemy operative to take control of the country, gave away your lands for free and started exterminating your own people in the service of tatar Red Messiah

    It was hilarious for all those that were lucky enough to not be there, pure comedy gold lol1
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:11 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:...There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math

    Remember what happened in WW1?...

    Of course, everyone does

    You guys folded like lawn chairs couple of months before victory, betrayed your allies, allowed enemy operative to take control of the country, gave away your lands for free and started exterminating your own people in the service of tatar Red Messiah

    It was hilarious for all those that were lucky enough to not be there, pure comedy gold lol1

    We had the last laugh though

    By the 30s we had 15% GDP growth a year, masses of new industries including defense industries capable of producing all our own weapons, mass literacy campaigns, design bureaus and so on.
    By the start of the war we had well over 20,000 tanks. Even if most of them were obsolete, and we were only left with 10% of our initial pool by the end of 1941; they still did their job and inflicted enough casualties on the enemy, threw it off schedule.

    Imagine the Tsar's crappy army going up against Nazi Germany with its British battleships and French artillery, officer-aristocrats and chronic shortage of everything including even rifles for its men.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:09 pm

    flamming_python wrote:We had the last laugh though

    You killed half of your own population, it was definitely last laugh for quite a few folks, RIP



    flamming_python wrote:By the 30s we had 15% GDP growth a year

    30% growth after dropping to zero, congrats

    How was food back then? Cabbage doesn't count Razz



    flamming_python wrote:...masses of new industries including defense industries capable of producing all our own weapons

    Google Land Lease



    flamming_python wrote:By the start of the war we had well over 20,000 tanks

    And lost every single one



    flamming_python wrote:Even if most of them were obsolete

    That they were, that they definitely were



    flamming_python wrote:and we were only left with 10% of our initial pool by the end of 1941

    Rare for commies​ to admit their own inevitable fuckups, kudos on that



    flamming_python wrote:they still did their job and inflicted enough casualties on the enemy, threw it off schedule

    You sure drowned them in your own dead



    flamming_python wrote:Imagine the Tsar's crappy army

    Tsar's crappy army never allowed Germans to stroll up to the suburbs of Moscow



    flamming_python wrote:going up against Nazi Germany

    There wouldn't have been Nazi Germany had commies not threw in the towel, Russian border would have been going through Berlin

    It's questionable if there would have been Germany period



    flamming_python wrote:...with its British battleships and French artillery, officer-aristocrats and chronic shortage of everything including even rifles for its men.

    Google Lend Lease

    As for officers may I present the tactical/strategic masterpiece known as Winter War?

    Or simply first half or WW2? lol1

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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:31 pm

    I am not gonna deny that Soviets faced a huge industrial revolution. I also admit they brought good concepts like education for all and medical for all. But that could have been also provided without the communists. Land Lease was actually not really that huge of a thing for Russia and of course the development of T-34 and Il-2 for examples were huge deciding factors for Soviets advancement. But with that all said, because of the bolshevik revolution caused such a backlash in Russia that it did cost unnecessary lives lost and threw the country back a decade. So Soviets were unwoefully unprepared during WWII. And yes, growth was great only because they started from the very bottom thanks to the revolution.

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:54 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I am not gonna deny that Soviets faced a huge industrial revolution.  I also admit they brought good concepts like education for all and medical for all.  But that could have been also provided without the communists.  Land Lease was actually not really that huge of a thing for Russia and of course the development of T-34 and Il-2 for examples were huge deciding factors for Soviets advancement.  But with that all said, because of the bolshevik revolution caused such a backlash in Russia that it did cost unnecessary lives lost and threw the country back a decade.  So Soviets were unwoefully unprepared during WWII.  And yes, growth was great only because they started from the very bottom thanks to the revolution.

    Thanks to communism Russia was/is constantly playing catch-up instead of starting off with massive advantage

    WW2 happened because Germans were given an open playing field, this would not have happened had commies not surrendered WW1



    Anyway this whole conversation has lasted way longer than needed and I completely forgot that this is Talking Bollocks tread



    Arguing perspective of communist/socialist death-cult in potential human future is about as useful in this day and age as discussing merits of hereditary feudalism

    Both are dead ideologies

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:32 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I am not gonna deny that Soviets faced a huge industrial revolution.  I also admit they brought good concepts like education for all and medical for all.  But that could have been also provided without the communists.  Land Lease was actually not really that huge of a thing for Russia and of course the development of T-34 and Il-2 for examples were huge deciding factors for Soviets advancement.  But with that all said, because of the bolshevik revolution caused such a backlash in Russia that it did cost unnecessary lives lost and threw the country back a decade.  So Soviets were unwoefully unprepared during WWII.  And yes, growth was great only because they started from the very bottom thanks to the revolution.

    Thanks to communism Russia was/is constantly playing catch-up instead of starting off with massive advantage

    WW2 happened because Germans were given an open playing field, this would not have happened had commies not surrendered WW1



    Anyway this whole conversation has lasted way longer than needed and I completely forgot that this is Talking Bollocks tread



    Arguing perspective of communist/socialist death-cult in potential human future is about as useful in this day and age as discussing merits of hereditary feudalism

    Both are dead ideologies


    Because of course Russia was a breakthrough European country in the early 20th century; instead of being closer to India's or China's level of development than to Western Europe, the USA or Japan

    And because of course the Soviet Union did not achieve levels of power, expansion and social-economic development that the Tsar's traditionalist realm could never even think of, Cold War superpower, first man in space, breakthroughs in multiple sectors of industry and science, mass housing, medical system, education system that produced a huge amount of intelligencia, first to offer 8-hour working days, full gender equality, etc..

    Anyone who understands socialism understands that it's not an ideology. It's an anti-ideology. Because what socialism is, is an analysis.

    Open playing field? I don't even know what you're on about. But OK, whatever.

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