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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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    kumbor

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    Post  kumbor Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:28 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    kumbor wrote:I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!

    Everyone reading my comments regularly knows that my bet for the next generation manned fighter aircraft for the Russian Naval Aviation is the Su-57.

    Combat UAVs can be a solution for smalller ships that have only some helicopter of the Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 family or have not aerial combat means now. To note that in my previous comment VTOL UAVs include unmanned aircrafts of different configurations like tiltrotors, helicopters,...

    Technologically the main effort to obtain it would be in the development of unmanned control technologies, but this is coming.


    USN experience with DASH unmanned small helicopter for ASW was a disaster, but it was almost 50 years ago!
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:56 am

    kumbor wrote:I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!


    Kubor, I m not sure what is your background in design of jet fighters to support your claims? First of all Russians already decided to replace MiG-29k and Su-33 by new VSTOL fighter.
    Chinese are developing own VSTOL fighter too.

    BTW MiG-29k performance? is just  slightly over 30 yold Yak-141. with 30% stronger engines.  Range is the same (OK Yak had a bit longer ;-) and Mi g has 25 years of improvements. Get real mate.





    kumbor wrote:
    Please compare with the status of early 70s -
    {}

    Today, with 19 destroyers/frigates. no matter how cosmically advanced and equipped they are, RN cannot defend even their homeland shores, not to mention strategically important Western approaches and vast area of North Atlantic. UK SSNs are among finest, but there are too few of them! Think logically... one ship cannot be on two places at the same time. Sea is vast. sea is cruel, and many ships need refit in regular intervals.
    Not to mention RNs incapability to man even existing naval force. No men to man the ships, low salary, problems with training, lack of funding. Richard Compton Hall and John E Moore even in 80s predicted time when RN will not be capable to support itself. That time has come!


    But defending from whom? Only Russia is potential threat. No need for bigger fleet.
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    Post  kumbor Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:52 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    kumbor wrote:I see that many people on this Forum are great fans of VTOL/STOVL aircraft, but without serious grounds. With existing technology nobody can build VTOL / STOVL aircraft whose performance will be adequate and similar to those of SU-27/MiG29 family, not to mention SU-57. Combat UAVs could be appropriate solution, as technology is quickly progressing in that way!


    Kubor, I m not sure what is your background in design of jet fighters to support your claims? First of all Russians already decided to replace MiG-29k and Su-33 by new VSTOL fighter.
    Chinese are developing own VSTOL fighter too.

    BTW MiG-29k performance? is just  slightly over 30 yold Yak-141. with 30% stronger engines.  Range is the same (OK Yak had a bit longer ;-) and Mi g has 25 years of improvements. Get real mate.





    kumbor wrote:
    Please compare with the status of early 70s -
    {}

    Today, with 19 destroyers/frigates. no matter how cosmically advanced and equipped they are, RN cannot defend even their homeland shores, not to mention strategically important Western approaches and vast area of North Atlantic. UK SSNs are among finest, but there are too few of them! Think logically... one ship cannot be on two places at the same time. Sea is vast. sea is cruel, and many ships need refit in regular intervals.
    Not to mention RNs incapability to man even existing naval force. No men to man the ships, low salary, problems with training, lack of funding. Richard Compton Hall and John E Moore even in 80s predicted time when RN will not be capable to support itself. That time has come!


    But defending from whom? Only Russia is potential threat. No need for bigger fleet.

    @Gunship Democracy MiG-29, especially very advanced K, and MiG-35 variants completely outclass Yak-141 in speed, climbing, manoeuvrability and armament. No need for detailed argumentation. Look any reference data and compare. Maybe Russia started development of STOVL aircraft, I don`t deny that, but the development needs some 15 years from now on!

    I am talking about potential threat also. So called GIUK gap - vast area between Greenland, Iceland and UK was for last 70 years the main area of strategic engagement for RN. Western approaches also! Solely these two areas are a couple million square miles. Irish sea, Channel and half of North sea added. Royal Navy has not even slightest possibility of effective control of these areas of "life importance". Shame! If you aren`t aware of that, it`s your problem.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:58 pm

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 16 Scale_1200

    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5ab1fe8de44a9438327dd11c/gibridonosec-rossiia-razrabatyvaet-novyi-tip-korablei-ne-suscestvovavshii-ranee-5c053a9a8fcf080452324450?from=feed
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:18 am

    Maybe Russia started development of STOVL aircraft, I don`t deny that, but the development needs some 15 years from now on!

    And they did it several times before and ended up with mediocre aircraft that had no military value...

    The Yak-36 was probably the worst with no combat capability at all... so they needed a complete redesign... the Yak-38, which was pitiful.

    Next came the Yak-41 which was not really much of an improvement and was not better than contemporary aircraft of the time... MiG-29K and Su-33... the former was rejected and the Su-33 was used despite being slightly too big for the carrier.
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    Post  kumbor Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Maybe Russia started development of STOVL aircraft, I don`t deny that, but the development needs some 15 years from now on!

    And they did it several times before and ended up with mediocre aircraft that had no military value...

    The Yak-36 was probably the worst with no combat capability at all... so they needed a complete redesign... the Yak-38, which was pitiful.

    Next came the Yak-41 which was not really much of an improvement and was not better than contemporary aircraft of the time... MiG-29K and Su-33... the former was rejected and the Su-33 was used despite being slightly too big for the carrier.


    Until F-35 emerged there was no supersonic STOVL aircraft, GarryB. In 1994 Russia commercially sold COMPLETE TECHNICAL DOCUMENTATION FOR YAK-41 TO USA. Without that foolish action, development of F-35B could have been postponed for at least five years! Russia gave full technical solution for main engine, for thrust vectoring nozzle and much more. Yak 41/141 was 1,6M multipurpose aircraft with full fighter capability, with a capable fighter radar (type of Zhuk) and sufficient 2.000kg normal / 4.000kg. overload armament carrying capability.
    SU-33 was adopted as Pogosyan`s bulldozer like business policy was successful. Otherwise, MiG-29K was completely up to the role - and much smaller.
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    Post  hoom Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:36 am

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 16 Scale_1200
    Is a pic of a Wasp class LHD
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 16 6f4908581fa22a6d11db2e4bccf12e81
    Text describes basically an LHD too dunno

    I'm not opposed to the idea but I don't see anything 'without analogues' there scratch
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:39 am

    Until F-35 emerged there was no supersonic STOVL aircraft, GarryB

    Not true... Yak-41 is the obvious.

    There is also some speculation that the Yak-38M was capable of supersonic speed in a dive.

    Without that foolish action, development of F-35B could have been postponed for at least five years!

    And the rest, their TVC engine technology up to that point was jet deflection paddles in the F-29/F-31.

    Even the British couldn't manage afterburning jet engine thrust being deflected 95 degrees...

    Yak 41/141 was 1,6M multipurpose aircraft with full fighter capability, with a capable fighter radar (type of Zhuk) and sufficient 2.000kg normal / 4.000kg. overload armament carrying capability.

    I strongly disagree... they had a basic framework for a fighter, but it was no where near an operational aircraft... not even close.

    SU-33 was adopted as Pogosyan`s bulldozer like business policy was successful. Otherwise, MiG-29K was completely up to the role - and much smaller.

    MiG-29K was a fully multirole fighter bomber able to perform air to air and air to surface and air to ground roles, but the Russian Navy only wanted an interceptor that could deal with Harpoon over the horizon from the ships it was operating from.

    The Su-33 was not more expensive and was exactly what they wanted... a case of MiG trying too hard to provide capabilities that the Navy didn't need.

    They made the same mistake with the Air Force who didn't really need multirole fighter bombers, which is why they didn't buy MiG-29SMTs until some became available that were already paid for.

    The F-35 is so barely supersonic I rather doubt it would actually spend any time in combat at supersonic speeds.

    I'm not opposed to the idea but I don't see anything 'without analogues' there

    Russia needs a "Harrier carrier" like it needs aids.
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    Post  Isos Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:52 am

    Russia needs a "Harrier carrier" like it needs aids.

    They need at least 1 new true carrier be it with skijump or catapult with su-57K or the new mig they are talking about.

    Agree harrier carrier would be useless but it would be good that their future helicopter carrier could carry 3 or 4 VTOL jets to use them for patrol around the fleet with a new radar and data link with redut to allow air defence missiles to hit above radar horizon.

    Maybe they could upgrade 10 or so old yak-38. A new jet will be expensive since they won't have 60 fighter per carrier and certainly not 10 carriers like US.

    Mig29K shares a lot with mig-35/29M so its production is cheaper.

    If it is yak that make the plane it will be even more expensive since they have build like 0 jets last 30 years.
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    Post  hoom Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:30 am

    Russia needs a "Harrier carrier" like it needs aids.
    Well there is a clear desire for a LHD capability to the point of constructing 2* Mistrals.

    IMO if planned at the start a significant air capability is possible in a 40-45Kton LHD (Wasp/Vikramaditya size).
    US claims 20 F-35s can operate off a Wasp in carrier mode so at least that should be possible & is significantly useful.

    There is significant flexibility benefit since each ship can always provide carrier, helicopter carrier or landing capability vs specialist ships where the relevant specialist may be in maintenance when needed, especially when talking about numbers as low as 4 or 6 max, split between 2 fleets.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:34 pm

    Now they can sell COMPLETE TECHNICAL DOCUMENTATION FOR the YAK-41 to China & build the next generation STOVL follow on together.
    They won't have enough surface ships by 2030 even w/o a CVN:

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    Post  eehnie Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:20 pm

    This video is not accurate on many details...

    The analysis is wrong.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:44 pm

    Just stating that won't do it for me. Can u refute it with some worthy substantiation?
    Otherwise, it would be too good to be true in the current Russian context for them to be able to accomplish everything spelled out in their program.
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    Post  eehnie Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:15 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Just stating that won't do it for me. Can u refute it with some worthy substantiation?
    Otherwise, it would be too good to be true in the current Russian context for them to be able to accomplish everything spelled out in their program.

    Many ships are not counted.

    And when you preted to make conclussions about the future fleet, ships that are under modernization must be counted because obviously will be in at the time.

    Plus many other details.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:47 am

    The counted all the major & relevant classes of ships.
    What is the ratio of those surface ships now & planned to be under modernization to those planned to be built by 2030?
    Besides, some of those slated for modernization may never be modernized, as was pointed out before. Time to take off ur rosy glasses!

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    Post  eehnie Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:19 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The counted all the major & relevant classes of ships.
    What is the ratio of those surface ships now & planned to be under modernization to those planned to be built by 2030?
    Besides, some of those slated for modernization may never be modernized, as was pointed out before. Time to take off ur rosy glasses!


    No and you know it. Only of the second biggest and most powerfull class, the Project 1144, they count 1 of 3.

    The video has nothing to save.

    You can see here the combat fleet more complete, only with some few details to take into account:

    http://russianships.info/eng/today/
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:08 am

    You can see here the combat fleet more complete, only with some few details to take into account:
    http://russianships.info/eng/today/

    Written and managed by a group of enthusiasts, the RussianShips.info site aims to provide an authoritative resource of information about the Soviet NAVY and Russian Federation NAVY, past and present. http://russianships.info/eng/
    It may be inaccurate & biased.

    If the the Adm. Nakhimov is modernized, only 2 will remain for years to come, as the Adm. Lazarev's fate is uncertian.
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0_1144#%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D0%9B%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80)#%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D0%B0
    https://lenta.ru/news/2015/01/27/1144

    Only 5 ships of the PacF can go on long cruises to the far zone:
    https://ria.ru/20170421/1492683612.html

    The Northern Fleet has 9: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82_%D0%92%D0%9C%D0%A4_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8#%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8

    The Baltic Fleet had 2:
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82_%D0%92%D0%9C%D0%A4_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8#%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2

    The BSF has 7: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82_%D0%92%D0%9C%D0%A4_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8#%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2_%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0

    5+9+7+2=23 ships, or 7 avail. 24/7 as CVN/UDK escorts & other tasks. Even after a few more ships r built by the 2030, it won't be enough for 2-4 UDKs/TAKRs/CVNs as some of the older ships will be in refit.
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    Post  eehnie Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:22 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If the the Adm. Nakhimov is modernized, only 2 will remain for years to come, as the Adm. Lazarev's fate is uncertian.

    If it is uncertain, why you say "only 2 will remain for years"?

    This is not accurate, and is biased in a direction that is not positive for Russia. At this point the ship is in, and can be modernized like the other 2.

    The video counted only 1 of the 3, between many other "mistakes", and then make drama...

    Not serious, not accurate, and biased in a negative way.

    Someone is really thinking the Russian Navy does not know the amount of ships they have, and their situation, to think they can have some real influence over the Russian Navy with this kind of fake drama?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:40 am

    If it is uncertain, why you say "only 2 will remain for years"?
    Because its modernization will take a few years once it starts.
    That date also may be delayed as there is now 1 less big dry dock.
    Also, Peter the Great will go for a refit after the Adm. Nakhimov is modernized. So actually only 1 can be counted on for the foreseeable future.
    ..think they can have some real influence over the Russian Navy..
    No1 is trying to influence them that way, stop seeing enemies under every bush!
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:16 am

    Amusing... it talks about the ships and subs available today and then talks about how the current for is inadequate for the plans projected for 2030... do they not realise that between now and 2030 they might actually build some new ships and subs?

    Did they mention the fact that the focus so far on rearmament has been on the Army and Air Force as well as the strategic nuclear forces and that now the emphasis will shift to expand Russian potential for global reach and capability.

    The Atlantic will be an important region as it gives Russia access to central and south american states as well as african states, while the pacific ocean gives them access to the indian ocean and the other side of africa as well as central and south america too.

    A new canal through central america is being planned and paid for by China AFAIK which will further improve access...

    5+9+7+2=23 ships, or 7 avail. 24/7 as CVN/UDK escorts & other tasks. Even after a few more ships r built by the 2030, it won't be enough for 2-4 UDKs/TAKRs/CVNs as some of the older ships will be in refit.

    You are confusing Russian ships for American ships... Russian carriers don't need a dozen ships to escort it to protect it... it will have its own self defence screen of missiles like any other cruiser.

    Not suggesting it could operate on its own but it wont need a large escort most of the time...
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:17 am

    They need at least 1 new true carrier be it with skijump or catapult with su-57K or the new mig they are talking about.

    They seem to want two different types of carriers... as shown by their money spending... they wanted a small Mistral like helicopter carrier to support landing forces, and they have the Kuznetsov and want something slightly bigger with a slightly bigger air wing... they want that to provide air cover for their surface ships... which is totally understandable... most military forces want to operate with air control... it simply makes things easier and safer being able to spot enemy threats from greater distances and to be able to deal with things further away from your surface vessels.

    Agree harrier carrier would be useless but it would be good that their future helicopter carrier could carry 3 or 4 VTOL jets to use them for patrol around the fleet with a new radar and data link with redut to allow air defence missiles to hit above radar horizon.

    Ka-31/35 and Ka-52K could already do that without needing to develop a whole new 5th gen fighter.

    Maybe they could upgrade 10 or so old yak-38. A new jet will be expensive since they won't have 60 fighter per carrier and certainly not 10 carriers like US.

    The Yak-38 was worse than useless... at best it could carry four R-60 short range AAMs and had no radar and crashed an awful lot.

    Mig29K shares a lot with mig-35/29M so its production is cheaper.

    I agree... if they are going to build helicopter carriers... whether they are based on the Mistral design or something else if they were ever going to use it in a real landing they would have the Kuznetsov operating there too in support, so it makes more sense using MiG-35s to support the landing than to take 3-4 helicopters off your helicopter carrier to put next to useless VTOL fighters on their that don't currently exist.

    If it is yak that make the plane it will be even more expensive since they have build like 0 jets last 30 years.

    Well they have been making Yak-130s, but no front line fighters that need modern self defence avionics suites or combat radars etc etc.

    Well there is a clear desire for a LHD capability to the point of constructing 2* Mistrals.

    Seems you equate a harrier carrier to a helicopter carrier...

    They wanted a vessel to land Russian Naval Infantry forces... they did not want a half arsed little piece of shit shoe box with crap VTOL targets on it.

    IMO if planned at the start a significant air capability is possible in a 40-45Kton LHD (Wasp/Vikramaditya size).
    US claims 20 F-35s can operate off a Wasp in carrier mode so at least that should be possible & is significantly useful.

    Russia hasn't got any F-35s, and even if they did WTF would they want that many fixed wing aircraft supporting a landing?

    Helicopters and landing craft are vastly more valuable than some show pony piece of crap carrying 6 AAMs... expecially for the 200 million dollar a pop you would be paying for them because you would only be making about 60 planes tops.

    There is significant flexibility benefit since each ship can always provide carrier, helicopter carrier or landing capability vs specialist ships where the relevant specialist may be in maintenance when needed, especially when talking about numbers as low as 4 or 6 max, split between 2 fleets.

    Flexibility is nice, but usefulness is rather more important.

    Just because a new carrier could carry useless VTOL fighters doesn't mean you would ever want it to.

    Now they can sell COMPLETE TECHNICAL DOCUMENTATION FOR the YAK-41 to China & build the next generation STOVL follow on together.

    According to western media the Chinese already have the complete documentation on the F-35, so why bother with the Yak-41 docs?

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:10 pm

    Russians have told they will build multifunctional assault ships. They have also said they discuss the STOVL plane and one of the functions of their proposed assault ships would be carriers. In line with many other navies and with the own doctrine of creating combatants that are an asset and not a liability constantly needing external support, I can understand from a theoretical point of view that having maybe half squadron STOVL on board a LHD can be considered useful. It can help an assault group to operate effectively and autonomously in lower risk environments, and Russia will probably not build LHDs and CVs in big numbers, so it would make sense that one does not need from the other every time, the same way that not every deployment calls for the same type of assets. Of course the economic viability issue puts a big question mark on the project, to the point that I don't see this really going anywhere unless in cooperation with China. Other solutions like the proposed high speed Kamov could also weaken the case for the STOVL plane
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:29 pm

    Well they have been making Yak-130s, but no front line fighters that need modern self defence avionics suites or combat radars etc etc.
    They r now organizationally "under the same roof" with MiG & Sukhoi which can help in design.
    Not suggesting it could operate on its own but it wont need a large escort most of the time...
    We discussed it already.. They'll need at least 2-3 medium/large surface escorts per UDK/CVN.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:23 pm

    They r now organizationally "under the same roof" with MiG & Sukhoi which can help in design.

    Competition was and is huge between them. Even during communist time. Let alone now that contract are smaller and fewer.

    Yak and mig can be happy to have yak-130 and mig-29k/35. Sukhoi is is the best choice for any future 5th generation fighter since they have already done huge work on su-57.
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    kumbor

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    Post  kumbor Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:39 pm

    LMFS wrote:Russians have told they will build multifunctional assault ships. They have also said they discuss the STOVL plane and one of the functions of their proposed assault ships would be carriers. In line with many other navies and with the own doctrine of creating combatants that are an asset and not a liability constantly needing external support, I can understand from a theoretical point of view that having maybe half squadron STOVL on board a LHD can be considered useful. It can help an assault group to operate effectively and autonomously in lower risk environments, and Russia will probably not build LHDs and CVs in big numbers, so it would make sense that one does not need from the other every time, the same way that not every deployment calls for the same type of assets. Of course the economic viability issue puts a big question mark on the project, to the point that I don't see this really going anywhere unless in cooperation with China. Other solutions like the proposed high speed Kamov could also weaken the case for the STOVL plane

    Helicopter, even a fast one is completely different aircraft from classical airplane. They cannot support each other in any way. Helicopters have one scope of missions, and airplanes different one!

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