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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:52 am

    Well, there is a reason they r not restarting production of SU-33s; if they were so good, why not do that instead of betting on MiG-29Ks?

    Simply money.

    It costs money to setup production of any aircraft, and the cost of setting up production for the Su-33 to make two or three dozen would make each aircraft quite expensive for what it was.

    The MiG-29KR was already in production for India, so the set up costs were zero, so adding their order for MiGs worked out much quicker and cheaper and easier, plus the MiG-29KR is a fully multirole aircraft, unlike the Su-33, which is just an Su-27 with naval alterations... ie a fighter interceptor with no ground attack capability except dumb bombs and unguided rockets.

    The Su-33KUB was a dramatic improvement with extensive multirole capabilities, but was not ordered either.

    It's ~3 tons lighter but their dimensions r very close, pl. see relevant links.
    The F-111 was for CV/Ns but it didn't work as well as the F-14.
    On a 70K ton CVN, there'll be even less space.

    What are you talking about?

    Full load weight of Su-57 is less than 30 tons, so it is lighter than an Su-33 but with much more powerful engines and no external weapon drag...

    The F-111 is more like 45 tons with rather less engine power...

    The Su-57 is actually lighter than an F-14 carrier based fighter and has a similar weight to an F-18.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:58 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:for LFMS they are Razz Razz Razz

    For Eehnie too.

    Like alwyas you are far of the reality.

    My favourite option is to see the main variant of the Su-57 able of using the future Russian aircraft carrier.

    Naval variant of the Su-57 would be a second option for me. Valid but a little less interesting.

    You and others can bury the real news with tons of non-sense, but this will not change the reality, it only makes the topic a non-sense.

    And while you do it, the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.

    I remember seeing plastic models from the 1970s that were supposed to represent the carriers to come after the Kiev class... yes, that makes the plastic models Kuznetsov models... and what sort of planes did those plastic models have on them?

    It wasn't MiG-29s or Su-27s... it was MiG-23s... because the model is about the carrier and not the plane...

    If it is not a larger carrier with decent aircraft then why even bother with carriers... go with the best or expect to lose... and if you expect to lose why bother spending any money at all on some piece of crap that wont do the job?

    Su-57 navalised plus 70K plus ton carrier or some Star Trek UAV/UCAV launcher vessel/container ship.

    Edit: I should point out those plastic models of carriers from the 1970s were not seen until the 1990s...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:55 am

    It costs money to setup production of any aircraft, and the cost of setting up production for the Su-33 to make two or three dozen would make each aircraft quite expensive for what it was.
    The MiG-29KR was already in production for India, so the set up costs were zero, so adding their order for MiGs worked out much quicker and cheaper and easier, plus the MiG-29KR is a fully multirole aircraft, unlike the Su-33, which is just an Su-27 with naval alterations... ie a fighter interceptor with no ground attack capability except dumb bombs and unguided rockets.
    Don't they still produce the SU-30s for India, not to mention the SU-34/-35s for themselves & China? And why couldn't the bigger & longer range SU-33s be upgraded to multi-role to match the SU-30?
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    Post  kumbor on Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:29 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    BTW Laser and Microwve will never matrialise?
    I said exactly the opposite actually... Suspect


    LMFS wrote:I mean, apart from vague references to fancy energy weapons, lasers, smart skins and high-tech engines... what? When? How many? How expensive? Where are the demonstrators to all those features? Where are even the requirements

    +++


    Earlier, the chief of the Air and Space Forces of Russia, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev, announced the possibility of using laser weapons on the MiG-35 aircraft
    LMFS wrote: Laser GUIDED weapons...

    +++

    Coming in 2021: A laser weapon for fighter jets
    LMFS wrote:Yes yes yes... Sleep



    ohh rlyyy?  Imust have misunderstood you  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

    BTW guided ?   lol1  lol1  lol1


    Previously, the MiG-35 will use laser weapons, said the president of the United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slyusar . According to him, on the plane from six to eight the number of suspension points has been increased, which will make it possible to use, among other things, prospective weapons, including laser weapons.
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201703071309-x2lj.htm

    It is difficult to assume that russian jets will soon acquire laser weapons. Laser (powered) weapons need huge amount of energy. It`s impossible to put such an energy source within the airframe of either MiG or SU. Laser weapons will be still only land based
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:13 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    By now it is not even close to being operational. It will come probably, but we are still far from that. Countermeasures will be developed and doctrine will need to be adapted. It is still unclear if these weapons will make a change in the kind of platforms used for air combat, maybe in the future fighters are substituted for transport planes with huge DEW and stocks of drones and/or missiles, who knows. So if traditional fighters are still applicable, these systems could be implemented on a Su-57. If not, the F/A-XX would be obsolete too, if ever developed at all.


    For lasers this is only matter of size of energy generator/storage. You need 100kW impulse to destroy any missile and perhaps also fighter. Andyes with money already invested they will be. If in mid 2020s or early 2030s doesn't matter.  With microvawe weapons perhaps will be not installed for manned fighters as there are problems with pilot safety AFAIK.



    BTW guided ?   lol1  lol1  lol1
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201703071309-x2lj.htm
    Yes, a journo understanding things with his arse is a proof of the MiG-35 going to be equipped with blasters at any moment now lol1 lol1 lol1
    Do you want to bet on that happening?


    This no journo. I have listened interviews. "all perspective kinds of weapons including laser one" . I bet that this is happening now. Within 5-10 years will be available for most of fighters. . Not necessarily for MiG-35 though  as program is at best hibernated if not dead.  



    BTW This was that 1 guy who was saying this the other one was Yuri Slusar gen manager of OAK:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE,_%D0%98%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    Ilya S. Tarasenko was born on March 23, 1980 in Moscow. In 2002 he graduated from the Moscow Aviation Institute , after which he worked in the OKB im. PO Sukhoi . In 2005, he became director of the consolidated directorate of OAO Sukhoi Company. In 2009, he moved to RSK MiG , where he consistently holds the posts of Director of the Directorate for Program Coordination, Director for Program Coordination, Deputy Director General for Program Coordination and Procurement, and First Deputy Director General. In July 2014, IS Tarasenko heads the JSC "Civil Aircraft Sukhoi . " Since September 2016 he is the General Director of JSC "RAC" MiG






    LMFS wrote:
    WTF? Are you kidding me? When did I say that? On the contrary, I have said that those models are proposals done without any link to MoD and therefore are proof of exactly NOTHING.


    Oh sorry tne I misunderstood I thought you were saying about having navalized Su-57 as deck fighters russia russia russia  OK  the my cute CGI  should be then contemplated as artist impressions about new gen lighth fighters I love you I love you I love you
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:28 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    It is difficult to assume that russian jets will soon acquire laser weapons. Laser (powered) weapons need huge amount of energy. It`s impossible to put such an energy source within the airframe of either MiG or SU. Laser weapons will be still only land based

    100kW impulse is all you need 50 should be ok for drones or dazzling. What is the power of new fighter engine? Without speed of exhaust gases it would be hard to calculate but turboprop for Tu95 has 11,000kW each.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:34 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Deck fighters/ground attack planes can be land based like the A-4/-6/-7/-8s & F-4/-14/-18s, but the land based F-16/-15/-22s can't be CVN based, as their navalization isn't worth the trouble.
    The same can be said about the SU-57, as others pointed out. It has ~the same J-20 (which isn't being navalized) & F-111 dimensions:
    +++

    If ~ the same sized F-111 was not suitable for the USN CV/Ns, then how the Su-57 could be suitable for a 70K ton CVN? And how many could fit on a 100K ton CVN & to leave enough room for other a/c? Producing just a few of them isn't worth it.

    I second that.  Navalization for 1-2 CVNs especially if they can take 24 each make it not worth effort.




    ..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!
    Well If Russia can build enough of large carrier ti would be cool. But realities are slightly different atm.  Now Russia's  doctrine is based on sea/area denial  not control what let Russian deal with internal economy & science development and spending much less for deference.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Ture that's why Kuz will slowly die with obsolete MiG-29k and Su-33 unless new light fighter will be build. And new fighter will be build

    Why?
    If Russia sends a carrier to support Russian intervention in South Africa... exactly why will the Su-33 and MiG-29KR be obsolete?

    This was statement by depury of MoD  and now deputy PM for MiC? Perhaps because they were not updated for years and their service life will also be abut to end?


    Do you think F-35s will try to shoot down Russian jets?

    The point is I dotn think thy will. Technically can shoot any obsolete fighter but this would mean IIIWWW.


    If Venezuela asks for a carrier group to visit because they feel threatened by the US, it will be the presence of the ships and aircraft that are of value... don't think of the aircraft on a carrier as being a one on one comparison with other fighters... what they are there fore is to extend the sight and reach of the ships... they are not there to dogfight their way through NATO...

    cheers  cheers  cheers  finally you agreed with me  cheers  cheers  cheers presence here is a key , for the reat you got Boreys/Avangards/Poseidons and Tu-160/Tu22M



    F-35 result of JSF result of JAST started in 1993... 25 years to date and still in need of debugging...

    Confusing the word debugging with restarting... the future seems to be F-35 avionics and systems in the F-22 air frame... so VSTOL is probably out the window...

    unlikely  lol1  lol1  lol1  and if so Russia will bethe only one with VSTOL  russia  russia  russia  




    One is "forward deployed" and three more are deployed and the rest are not in use... five in maintainence, and one in post deployment and one in pre deployment workup...

    Then 1 Kuz is mostly not deloyed ...2 still 0,5 "forward deployment"
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:49 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:For lasers this is only matter of size of energy generator/storage. You need 100kW impulse to destroy any missile and perhaps also fighter. Andyes with money already invested they will be. If in mid 2020s or early 2030s doesn't matter.  With microvawe weapons perhaps will be not installed for manned fighters as there are problems with pilot safety AFAIK.
    Thanks for apologizing for quoting me wrongly What a Face
    Glad to know that DEW are a trivial issue, that is fantastic news lol1

    This no journo. I have listened interviews. "all perspective kinds of weapons including laser one" . I bet that this is happening now. Within 5-10 years will be available for most of fighters. . Not necessarily for MiG-35 though  as program is at best hibernated if not dead.  

    BTW This was that 1 guy who was saying this the other one was Yuri Slusar gen manager of OAK:
    I know who Tarasenko is, the guy saying MiG-41 will de ready for series in 2025... no comments
    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.

    Oh sorry tne I misunderstood I thought you were saying about having navalized Su-57 as deck fighters russia russia russia  OK  the my cute CGI  should be then contemplated as artist impressions about new gen lighth fighters I love you I love you I love you
    Thanks again for apologizing, for putting words in my mouth I have not said respekt
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:50 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    Glad to know that DEW are a trivial issue, that is fantastic news lol1

    If you think so nice  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup but this is not what I said Razz Razz Razz  Laser gun 50kW was already tested this summer by F-15.  Perhaps it wont be by 2021 but why not couple years later?


    This no journo. I have listened interviews. "all perspective kinds of weapons including laser one"
    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.

    you had the source - an interview on TV Zvezda link provided. He said "all perspective kinds of weapons,  laser included". He never stated laser guided ammo though.

    KRET is also working on same stuff.
    https://tass.ru/interviews/4441543



    Oh sorry tne I misunderstood I thought you were saying about having navalized Su-57 as deck fighters russia russia russia  OK  the my cute CGI  should be then contemplated as artist impressions about new gen lighth fighters I love you I love you I love you
    Thanks again for apologizing, for putting words in my mouth I have not said respekt

    Then I am happy we agree VSOL programme is on , su57 is not thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:08 pm

    Could this be the Tiltrotor/VSTOL plane they've been talking about? http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/09/capturas-del-video-del-drone-fregat-de.html
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 2 Drone%2BFregat
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 2 Drone%2Bfregat%2B4
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 2 Drone%2Bfregat%2B6
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:54 pm

    hoom wrote:Could this be the Tiltrotor/VSTOL plane they've been talking about?

    This looks like UAV Fregat to me. Yup there is a version for deck aviation but for reconnaissance/SAR . If you mean the onefor VDV is is very unlikely it is for them.


    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/fregat-bla/
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    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:03 pm

    Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:41 pm

    hoom wrote:Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.

    What you see on pictures is a proof of concept UAV. Kronhstad wants to build deck version (8tons weight class) by 2025 -if Navy is interested. Perhaps it was artist impression about deck version. Perhaps payload was not large 2tons but range 3000km and ceilint 8000m is nob bad for many functions od deck aviation (SAR, ASW, AWACS)
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:30 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!

    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.

    A prospective aircraft carrier of the Navy will receive a displacement of not less than 70 thousand tons

    The Navy considers it inexpedient to build lightweight aircraft carriers, the deputy head of the Russian Navy for armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk

    ST.PETERSBURG, April 25. / TASS /. A prospective aircraft carrier of the Russian Navy will have a displacement of at least 70 thousand tons, its technical project is not yet ready. Vice-Admiral Viktor Bursuk told journalists about this from the deputy naval commander of the Russian Navy on armament.
    "The fleet believes that lightweight aircraft carriers should not be built for the Russian Federation from the point of view of the economic" price-quality ratio. "It is preferable to build aircraft carriers with a displacement of about 70 thousand tons, which allow carrying more aircraft on board," he said.

    Bursuk added that "the technical specifications and the design of [such a ship] have not yet been developed, during the creation of the technical design it will be determined what is needed," but "it is already clear that its displacement will be about 70 thousand tons."

    Before the Russian Navy stated that the Russian fleet expected to receive a promising aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030. Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov reported that the contract for the construction of an aircraft carrier could be signed by the end of 2025. The Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov informed that the sketch design of the aircraft carrying ship has already been created and submitted to the Ministry of Defense of Russia.

    At the same time, the Krylov State Research Center, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, developed a new project for a new aircraft carrier, which was also offered for the Russian fleet. Project 23000 was named "Storm". The sketch assumes that the ship will have a displacement of 80-90 thousand tons, it will be equipped with a combined power plant (both an atomic reactor and a gas turbine engine), the air group of the ship must number up to 60 units.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5157561
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    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:37 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!

    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.

    A prospective aircraft carrier of the Navy will receive a displacement of not less than 70 thousand tons

    The Navy considers it inexpedient to build lightweight aircraft carriers, the deputy head of the Russian Navy for armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk

    ST.PETERSBURG, April 25. / TASS /. A prospective aircraft carrier of the Russian Navy will have a displacement of at least 70 thousand tons, its technical project is not yet ready. Vice-Admiral Viktor Bursuk told journalists about this from the deputy naval commander of the Russian Navy on armament.
    "The fleet believes that lightweight aircraft carriers should not be built for the Russian Federation from the point of view of the economic" price-quality ratio. "It is preferable to build aircraft carriers with a displacement of about 70 thousand tons, which allow carrying more aircraft on board," he said.

    Bursuk added that "the technical specifications and the design of [such a ship] have not yet been developed, during the creation of the technical design it will be determined what is needed," but "it is already clear that its displacement will be about 70 thousand tons."

    Before the Russian Navy stated that the Russian fleet expected to receive a promising aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030. Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov reported that the contract for the construction of an aircraft carrier could be signed by the end of 2025. The Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov informed that the sketch design of the aircraft carrying ship has already been created and submitted to the Ministry of Defense of Russia.

    At the same time, the Krylov State Research Center, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, developed a new project for a new aircraft carrier, which was also offered for the Russian fleet. Project 23000 was named "Storm". The sketch assumes that the ship will have a displacement of 80-90 thousand tons, it will be equipped with a combined power plant (both an atomic reactor and a gas turbine engine), the air group of the ship must number up to 60 units.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5157561

    unless a contract signed nothing of all these can be regarded reliable sources. Just look at the MiG-29/35 thread. From 2012 till "Russian Air Force will recieve MiG-35 next year"
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:06 am

    George1 wrote:
    unless a contract signed nothing of all these can be regarded reliable sources. Just look at the MiG-29/35 thread. From 2012 till "Russian Air Force will recieve MiG-35 next year"

    Technically if no year is mentioned the date logically statement is all the time true lol1 lol1 lol1 Me thinks MiG-35 is good fighter but there's no need to invest init now since new gen fighters will be much better in every respect and money is wiser to spend there.

    The other question is what do they plan as CV role... Kuz till 2040s and rest? Shall we know before retirement? Would be bed news if non-modified LHD Priboy (24ktons) unless it iwll be lik e Juan Carlos I LHD. This one looks like can do the job with 30ktons.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:22 am

    Guys, pl. check spellings before posting.
    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.
    Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov reported that the contract for the construction of an aircraft carrier could be signed by the end of 2025[!].
    U can't put "could be" in the bank! They just print what they want to have, & the naval Su-57 isn't there at all! Pl. wake me up on January 1st, 2026!
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:45 am

    This was statement by depury of MoD and now deputy PM for MiC? Perhaps because they were not updated for years and their service life will also be abut to end?

    Please... stop bullshitting... the MiG-29KRs are practically new aircraft that were made not long ago and the purpose for sending the Kuznetsov to Syria was to test the new upgrades on both types... Su-33 and MiG-29KR.

    The point is I dotn think thy will. Technically can shoot any obsolete fighter but this would mean IIIWWW.

    And that is the point... when Russian carrier aircraft are shooting at F-35s then carrier aircraft will not be significant on either side.

    cheers cheers cheers finally you agreed with me cheers cheers cheers presence here is a key , for the reat you got Boreys/Avangards/Poseidons and Tu-160/Tu22M

    The problem is that US carriers are for invasions and sabre rattling, Russian carriers are to defend Russian surface vessels outside of Russian land based aircraft range... which means they will more likely be used regularly in the air intercept and CAP role... for which naval Su-57s are vastly more useful than some dinky little short range slow Yak-41 development.

    Russian ships will have plenty of short range close in point defence weapons so there is no need for a short range point defence aircraft...

    Then 1 Kuz is mostly not deloyed ...2 still 0,5 "forward deployment"

    If the Soviets had matched the USN in carriers then all of those vessels would be not deployed and the cost would have bankrupted the Russians even more.

    The fact is that the only value of the Kuz is experience, and will be for the next 10-15 years.

    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.

    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.

    My understanding of the talk of laser "weapons" on fighters regards an increase in power of DIRCMS so that instead of just dazzling an IR or EO sensor, that instead it actually damages the light sensitive elements and destroys the seekers... which would also have a rather negative effect on a pilot if directed at his visor too of course...


    Then I am happy we agree VSOL programme is on , su57 is not

    Su-57 is definitely on... the question is if they will make a naval version or not.

    Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.

    Clearly subsonic...

    Me thinks MiG-35 is good fighter but there's no need to invest init now since new gen fighters will be much better in every respect and money is wiser to spend there.

    Using that logic they will never put a new plane into service... because by the time it is ready then new technology means a brand new design that has not been designed yet could be much better so scrap it too...

    The MiG-35 will be affordable enough to get into service in decent numbers, so it makes sense to make them as a useful base fighter, and then decide if new stealth aircraft could be made that are actually stealthy or if new radar designs render them expensive wastes of time so better shaped aircraft can be used instead.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:20 am

    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.
    The RF economy may never grow large enough to justify & afford 2-3 CBGs; China will replace the US as the next SLOCs policeman & the Russian seaborne trade (a fraction of China's) outside of the NSR will be secure under her protection.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:50 am

    GarryB wrote:Please... stop bullshitting... the MiG-29KRs are practically new aircraft that were made not long ago and the purpose for sending the Kuznetsov to Syria was to test the new upgrades on both types... Su-33 and MiG-29KR.

    MiG-29K (Indian) was produced since 2005, Russian form 2012 but deign / avionics is older. The last refit of Su-33 is from 2010. in 10 years they will have almost 20 years without any update. BTW did you have any Syrian upgrade info? I have never heard about it.




    The point is I dotn think thy will. Technically can shoot any obsolete fighter but this would mean IIIWWW.
    And that is the point... when Russian carrier aircraft are shooting at F-35s then carrier aircraft will not be significant on either side.

    great we agreed cheers cheers cheers




    cheers  cheers  cheers  finally you agreed with me  cheers  cheers  cheers presence here is a key , for the reat you got Boreys/Avangards/Poseidons and Tu-160/Tu22M
    The problem is that US carriers are for invasions and sabre rattling, Russian carriers are to defend Russian surface vessels outside of  Russian land based aircraft range... which means they will more likely be used regularly in the air intercept and CAP role... for which naval Su-57s are vastly more useful than some dinky little short range slow Yak-41 development.
    [/quote]

    OK now back to earth. Navalized Su-57 surely would be a potent machine. Huuge CVNs would be more potent. But now money talks. First ther ewas about Shtorm 100k tones, then Navy cannot imagine that CVN could be less then 70k. Now Krylov (the only one who placed Su-57k in plaseic ;-) presented 44k model of carrier. That's why it is better to have small cheaper 20-30 fighters CV then none.

    Yak-141 concept 30 years old , not sure why you want to build old design? 30 years ago there were no avangards or poseidons. The new fighter will use definitely new tech/solutions. Same with performance.



    Russian ships will have plenty of short range close in point defense weapons so there is no need for a short range point defence aircraft...


    Pantsir has 800-900km radius?! affraid affraid affraid if not then fighters will be much better.




    Then 1 Kuz is mostly not deloyed ...2 still 0,5 "forward deployment"
    If the Soviets had matched the USN in carriers then all of those vessels would be not deployed and the cost would have bankrupted the Russians even more.
    The fact is that the only value of the Kuz is experience, and will be for the next 10-15 years.
    [/quote]

    good we agree thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.

    Russia will never control seas. You dont invest billions in fleet to trade with Cabo Verde. EU, China/India/Iran +SE Asia/large art of Africa can all be reached without or with minimal usage of high seas. And this market is more than enough to develop economy. If Russian military presence with small CV wont help then 1 very expensive carrier will make no difference either. I bet there will be in 20-30 years weapons of global reach available.





    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.
    My understanding of the talk of laser "weapons" on fighters regards an increase in power of DIRCMS so that instead of just dazzling an IR or EO sensor, that instead it actually damages the light sensitive elements and destroys the seekers... which would also have a rather negative effect on a pilot if directed at his visor too of course...

    In US there are plns to use 50-100kW laser which is able to destroy AAD missile. So far I have read that Russians are focusing about burning all sensors/electronics. Using either lasers or microwaves.





    Then I am happy we agree VSOL programme is on , su57 is not
    Su-57 is definitely on... the question is if they will make a naval version or not.

    My bad I meant 57k.




    Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.
    Clearly subsonic...

    wait, did you see any tiltrotor or chopper supersonic? affraid affraid affraid



    Me thinks MiG-35 is good fighter but there's no need to invest init now since new gen fighters will be much better in every respect and money is wiser to spend there.
    Using that logic they will never put a new plane into service... because by the time it is ready then new technology means a brand new design that has not been designed yet could be much better so scrap it too...

    The MiG-35 will be affordable enough to get into service in decent numbers, so it makes sense to make them as a useful base fighter, and then decide if new stealth aircraft could be made that are actually stealthy or if new radar designs render them expensive wastes of time so better shaped aircraft can be used instead.
    [/quote]

    Then what is the reason Russia stopped procuring of MiG-35 and started developing new VSTOL fighter instead?

    Using your logic USA should stick to F-5. Iran is still using ti with new avionics. They need to replace many fighters thet are goring ot be obsolete/by end of lifecycle in couple of years. They need not only new replacement but affordable.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:53 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.
    The RF economy may never grow large enough to justify & afford 2-3 CBGs; China will replace the US as the next SLOCs policeman & the Russian seaborne trade (a fraction of China's) outside of the NSR will be secure under her protection.

    looks like probable option. Russia can develop rich economy but limiting factor will always be demography. Even with huge immigration policy unlikely till 2050 wont be moremthan 180 mlns.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:55 am

    The RF economy may never grow large enough to justify & afford 2-3 CBGs;

    Not having a blue water navy is what will stop the RFs economy from growing... if the British or the French can afford two carriers then why not Russia?

    China will replace the US as the next SLOCs policeman & the Russian seaborne trade (a fraction of China's) outside of the NSR will be secure under her protection.

    China shows no interest in being the worlds policeman any more than Russia does... China will secure its own SLOCs but I doubt the will cross oceans to assist a Russian ship in trouble... and why would they?

    Currently Russias sea borne trade is negligible, but why do you think that wont change?

    Should Russia just accept it is a land locked country and only trade with its neighbours?

    Half of which are part of NATO?

    There is a whole world of countries out there that doesn't want to screw Russia and doesn't want to keep Russia as a poor resource asset... what the west calls the third world want to develop but have not been given any real opportunities by cooperation with the west because the west does not want them to develop and become strong and independent just like they don't want China or Russia to do the same.

    The reality is that there are a lot of countries that just want fair trade and up until recently they really only get that from China... Russia can offer cooperation too, and it does not need to be Russia or China... much of the world needs help... and I don't mean charity, I mean trade that benefits both sides and does not limit or make morality or political or cultural demands on the poor country like the west does.

    MiG-29K (Indian) was produced since 2005, Russian form 2012 but deign / avionics is older.

    Hahahahaha... yeah, right... and the Su-30MKI is all Russian avionics and systems... India never has French or Israeli avionics in their planes... it is all Russia stuff.

    The tooling to make MiG-29KRs was set up for producing aircraft for India, but do you think that means they just made some extra Indian aircraft for Russia, or just dumped some old avionics from land based MiG-29s into the plane?

    Don't you wonder why they had MiG-35s in mockup form shown in India yet they are still not producing them?

    Is that possibly because India and Russia are two different customers and the setups of the two aircraft are not the same for each customer?

    At least you are not suggesting the MiG-29K from the 1980s is different to what we are talking about...

    The last refit of Su-33 is from 2010. in 10 years they will have almost 20 years without any update. BTW did you have any Syrian upgrade info? I have never heard about it.

    They were testing the Gefest & T system added to the Su-33 amongst other new features that they didn't really elaborate on publicly AFAIK.

    great we agreed

    You don't build CVNs for WWIII, just like you don't make Armata tanks or Su-57s for WWIII... you make SLBMs, long range cruise missiles, and ICBMs for WWIII and various doomsday weapons like Poseiden.

    OK now back to earth. Navalized Su-57 surely would be a potent machine. Huuge CVNs would be more potent. But now money talks. First ther ewas about Shtorm 100k tones, then Navy cannot imagine that CVN could be less then 70k. Now Krylov (the only one who placed Su-57k in plaseic ;-) presented 44k model of carrier. That's why it is better to have small cheaper 20-30 fighters CV then none.

    Revealing designs means nothing... they are after sales... to whomever... if China said they wanted 5 Storm class carriers... that is what it is all about.

    You don't actually think the Russian Navy decides what it wants by looking at press releases from companies that make models do you?

    They will decide what they want based on their experience... and so far that suggests that the Kuz is slightly too small.

    They are funding EMALS, they are funding NPPs for very large ships, they have funded the upgrade of the Zvezda shipyard in the far east that can make up to 350K ton ships, and they are also funding STOVL aircraft.

    I very much doubt they will bank on those STOVL aircraft being good enough on their own so they can go super cheap and make a 40K ton ship to carry them... if they really wanted cheap then a modified gas carrier ship would be a fraction of the cost and be half carrier and half arsenal ship.

    They have already realised that bigger ships are better protected and more independent.... they can't afford to have an enormous fleet with huge numbers of all sorts of types of ships, so the carriers they do have will be it... so they might as well be as good as they can make them.

    Yak-141 concept 30 years old , not sure why you want to build old design? 30 years ago there were no avangards or poseidons. The new fighter will use definitely new tech/solutions. Same with performance.

    To be supersonic, it needs a 20 ton plus engine... no big deal... the R79 of the Yak-41 was developed to 22 tons thrust anyway, so that is not the issue... an evolved upgraded NK-32 could have 30 tons thrust... the point is that during a vertical landing... the only point to a STOVL aircraft... you need special heat resistant decking... that means it can only land on carriers or specially equipped ships... stretches of motor way, or half a runway(damaged), or a clearing in a field are not options for this aircraft.... that engine will destroy the ground underneath it and blow dirt and rubbish into the air to directly damage the engine.

    So if it can't land vertically except on a carrier then why not use cable arrested aircraft... any technology you put into a STOVL aircraft to make it better than other aircraft could be put into a conventional aircraft cheaper and easier... conventional aircraft don't need high pressure air blowers in the nose, the wingtips, and the tail for hovering flight... all that extra weight can be eliminated in a STOBAR aircraft.


    Pantsir has 800-900km radius?! affraid affraid affraid if not then fighters will be much better.

    Obviously an expert you... perhaps you need to pay attention to what "Point Defence" means... which point defence fighter has an 800km radius... and WTF use is a point defence fighter that is 800km away from the ships they are supposed to be defending?

    I bet there will be in 20-30 years weapons of global reach available.

    That is the point... if you lose this bet who gives a fuck... the Russian Navy are conservative and are interested in becoming an important part of Russian economic and military growth in the future...


    In US there are plns to use 50-100kW laser which is able to destroy AAD missile.

    Makes sense... their missiles suck.

    wait, did you see any tiltrotor or chopper supersonic?

    Drop them from orbit and they would probably get quite fast before they burned up....

    Then what is the reason Russia stopped procuring of MiG-35 and started developing new VSTOL fighter instead?

    What makes you think they wont be buying MiG-35s?

    Using your logic USA should stick to F-5. Iran is still using ti with new avionics. They need to replace many fighters thet are goring ot be obsolete/by end of lifecycle in couple of years. They need not only new replacement but affordable.

    My logic is fine, you are the one that is suggesting that a MiG-35 with near 5th gen level avionics and systems is going to be much more expensive than a stealthy VSTOL fighter they haven't even designed yet...

    Go your way and even if the damn thing is breathtakingly brilliant, it will be another 10 years of old MiG-29s before the new plane even gets into service.

    Russia can develop rich economy but limiting factor will always be demography. Even with huge immigration policy unlikely till 2050 wont be moremthan 180 mlns.

    Of course having half the landmass of the planet is not enough... more people is obviously their main concern... as populations increase, resources are going to increase in demand... a batch of faulty condoms can increase population if you need it but getting more land is not so easy...
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    Post  PTURBG on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:38 am

    I read from an anti-russian news source that most of the shareholders of the Zvezda shipyard are South Korean and they wont allow the Russians to build any military ships there. Is this true.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:14 pm

    PTURBG wrote:I read from an anti-russian news source that most of the shareholders of the Zvezda shipyard are South Korean and they wont allow the Russians to build any military ships there. Is this true.


    DAT Zvezda? there were 20% of now bankrupt Daewo. Since 2018 yes they bought tech fo rbuilding tankers/LNG tankers form Samusng. And are building 350 ktons dock...but Western and Ukrpisant "anal-systs" anre focusing only on first part lol1 lol1 lol1
    http://www.fes-zvezda.ru/news/

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4_%C2%AB%D0%97%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%C2%BB
    after Russian wiki:
    SSC "Star"
    The new shipyard was incorporated in 2009 as a joint venture of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (80% of the shipyard) and Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (20%) and was named "DSME Star" [3] . The new shipyard was intended for construction of a large-capacity tanker fleet for Russian oil and gas companies. However, in 2012 Daewoo leaves the enterprise and the shipyard passes to Rosneft and Gazprombank [4] . In 2015, the company receives the name of the shipbuilding complex "Zvezda" .

    In 2016, the first stage of the new production was launched, designed to build large-capacity vessels and other types of marine equipment for the implementation of hydrocarbon production projects on the continental shelf. There will be the largest dry dock in Russia and full cycle production workshops [5] .

    In 2018, work began on the construction of the second stage of the shipyard [6] . It is expected to complete the construction in 2024 .

    It is expected that vessels with a displacement of 250,000 tons, up to 350 meters in length and 60 meters in width, will descend from the super-shipyards. Up to 10 thousand specialists can work at the shipyards. [7]

    The main client of the shipyard was Rosneft, which concluded an agreement on the placement of all orders for the design and construction of new marine equipment and vessels at the shipyard's facilities. As of mid-2018, the shipyard's portfolio of orders totaled 118 vessels, including Rosneft's orders for 26 vessels, while 4 ships are under construction. [8] [9] In September 2018, the first Aframax tanker was laid . [10] Also in September, an agreement was reached with Samsung Heavy Industries on the transfer of competences in the construction of tankers. [eleven]

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