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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    lancelot
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  lancelot Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:25 pm

    In the long term Russia was going to switch to native planes. The changed situation means they will have to speed up the plans they had. And companies like the Russian engine manufacturer will hugely benefit from this. Since at least half the MC-21 engines were supposed to come from the US. The other components, not yet in production, were supposed to be used just for certain export clients under sanctions or the Russian government. This way they will have vastly expanded demand.
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    Gazputin


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Kazan Parts planned centre - IL-76 - PS-90 Perm etc

    Post  Gazputin Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:46 am

    found some interesting numbers on the IL-76 and Aviastar in general - as they are after parts too from this new Kazan machining centre

    Aviastar
    is upgrading around 1x An-124 pa to M-spec .... understandable they are huge beasts

    meanwhile
    Rus AF currently has 100x Il-76 and 20x refuellers with D-engine - old spec
    they plan to upgrade 40 to "M" spec .... and assume 10-15 refuellers ? ..... the youngest ones
    they started this in 2016

    so at say 2x pa ..... they have probably done 10 ? ..... 30+ to go ?
    mostly wiring and electronics as per An-124

    anyway that means they are looking for 70x Il-76-MD90As just to stay at break-even
    they have built 10x to date ?

    meanwhile Perm said they are currently only building 30pa of the PS-90 for aircraft usage
    so that's around 7x Il-76MD-90As .....

    60/7 = 9 years

    60/12 = 5 years
    60/18 = 3.5 years

    so you are probably looking at 5 years realistically

    any wonder the heat is on .... to build them faster
    and they want a bigger fleet ..... than current

    (meanwhile the older Il-76s they don't intend to upgrade .... 60
    will most likely end up being sold to Africa etc with a good reconditioning ? or scrapped )

    meanwhile
    Perm said they build around 130x PS-90 based power units for Gazprom each year

    but then
    18x Il-76-MD90As =72 PS-90 engines .... from Perm

    Perm is also going to build the PD-14 ....
    25x MC-21s = 50x PD-14s
    75 = 150x PD-14s
    etc

    Perm now has lots of orders for PS-90s re Tu-214 too .... 20pa plus spares

    so they will be doing around 100pa of each aircraft engine pretty soon ....

    and that's just aircraft engines
    200 /52 = 4 per week ..... 6 day working week (allowing for maintenance on 7th day etc)
    1 every 1.5 days ..... that's getting busy ....

    if Gazprom still want 100x pa
    200+100=300 / 52 = 6 a week
    = 1 a (working) day

    meanwhile I would assume the PD-8 will be built a Rybinsk where they assemble the current SaM-146s .....
    but who will make the hot core to replace the French bit ? Perm you would think ?

    interesting days ahead at Perm

    and isn't that new Kazan machining centre going to be "fun" ....

    but it does reek of Kamaz truck guys getting involved to me
    and probably Kazan helicopters ....
    interestingly that new big UAV the Altius-RU is assembled nearby too ....
    no shortage of experience nearby .....





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    Gazputin


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty PD-8 flight testing on IL-76LL flying lab winter 2022-23 and Ladoga-44

    Post  Gazputin Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:09 pm

    this is interesting .... sounds like mid-January to me

    Borisov ... "The SSJ-New aircraft with the Russian PD-8 engine is planned to be certified in 2024. Obtaining a type certificate for PD-8 is scheduled for 2023.

    Flight tests of the PD-8 engine on the IL-76LL flying laboratory should begin in the winter of 2022-2023
    Flight tests of the SSJ-New aircraft with the PD-8 engine will be held in 2023-2024.

    Serial production of the Superjet 100 New machine is planned to be deployed in 2024."

    so that makes sense then that Tsagi recently signed off on the aero of the PD-8 pylon design ....
    as it will soon be appearing on the Il-76LL ....

    https://aviation21.ru/yurij-borisov-rossiya-vynuzhdena-v-uskorennom-poryadke-realizovyvat-importozameshhenie/


    speaking of spare aircraft factories

    the Aviator factory in Samara that used to pump out Tu-154s
    is assembling fuselages for the Ladoga-44 civil prop aircraft
    story is they started making Antonov 140s ... then that fell over and it has laid largely idle

    seems the fuselage and cockpit area of the Ladoga-44 (derived from the L-610)
    bares an uncanny resemblance to the An-140 .... so the story goes
    probably using the same tooling and jigs by the sound of this ...

    why reinvent the wheel ? ... exactly
    in any case they needed to put another entrance door in front of the wing - missing in the L-610
    and shift the wing up higher so it didn't intrude into the fuselage
    that was what the An-140 had ... bingo

    but they are keeping the L-610 style T-tail re better STOL ...
    An-76 landing gear apparently .... re rough strips

    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/technicjeta/samolet-ladogo-vmesto-an140-kak-razvivaetsia-proizvodstvo-samoletov-v-rossii-623ac7f6f0720b6324e147df?&

    Samara has no shortage of engineering skills available
    Kuznetsov is there .... Progress pump out Soyuz rockets

    interesting in that the local Samara governor (as in Kazan re Tupolev) can smell some nice juicy local work appearing
    .... governors never seems to lose the ability to smell Federal money ....

    Samara want back into the aircraft business ....





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    Gazputin


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty New Job Opportunity

    Post  Gazputin Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:41 pm

    UAC plans to restore the airworthiness of the Tu-204, Il-96 and An-148 aircraft

    "The United Aircraft Corporation gave instructions to restore the airworthiness of the Tu-204, Il-96 and An-148 aircraft. This is reported by the telegram channel "Aviatorshchina", which drew attention to the description of the vacancy of the deputy technical director, which was posted by the leasing company "Ilyushin Finance".

    "In connection with the implementation of the tasks set by the shareholders to restore the airworthiness of the Tu-204, Il-96 and An-148 aircraft, IFK JSC proposes to consider a new vacancy for the post of Deputy Technical Director," the vacancy description says.

    The duties of the candidate, among other things, will include the management of projects to restore airworthiness and escort aircraft of domestic production into operation, interaction with the "parent company" (PJSC "UAC") and external companies.

    The applicant must have experience with domestically produced aircraft Tu-204, Il-96, An-148 for at least 5 years in terms of their maintenance and operation, as well as knowledge of their design. We also need experience of interaction with the Federal Air Transport Agency and knowledge of the Federal Aviation Regulations."


    interesting the An-148 rates a mention ..... will the new PD-8 fit it ? .... sounds like it

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    lancelot
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  lancelot Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:53 pm

    The other two aircraft it makes sense. But the An-148 is a waste of time. Complete overlap with smaller SSJ which was planned to be built and will compete for same engine resource.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty planespotters An-148-158 listing

    Post  Gazputin Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:25 pm

    yeah I was thinking the same thing .... but then I looked up this list

    https://www.planespotters.net/production-list/Antonov/An-148

    around 25 of them in Russia
    all built at VASO .....
    all under 10 yrs old ... that's a significant resource

    also most of the rougher airport regions prefer high wing designs with T-tails .... typical of military transports
    like the An-148 .... not like the SSJ

    don't get me wrong .... I am a mega-fan of simplification too

    does beg the other question doesn't it ....
    all the current SSJs ..... 150+ of them .....

    Sam-146 engines will die eventually
    that means there will need to be an SSJ rework centre
    to re-engine .... swap out APUs ....

    if that's inevitable maybe doing the An-148s isn't so different .... seems to be their line of thought

    interesting days .... that's for sure
    a lot of people are going to earn their pay over the next 3-4 yrs that's for sure

    at least it will be interesting work .... the very thing that globalisation tends to kill .... job enjoyment

    job description reeks of luring an ex-employee out of retirement
    it seems to be written for a specific individual to me - from VASO



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    flamming_python
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  flamming_python Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:50 pm

    lancelot wrote:The other two aircraft it makes sense. But the An-148 is a waste of time. Complete overlap with smaller SSJ which was planned to be built and will compete for same engine resource.

    Russia needs more regional jets anyway, even before the Airbuses and Boeings were grounded

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Il-96-400 Borisov 2022 - old VASO factory photos

    Post  Gazputin Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:43 am

    April 20, 2022, AviaStat.ru – The construction of the first IL-96-400 passenger aircraft will be completed in 2022, if necessary, it can be launched into a limited series for civil aviation, said Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov. About it writes RIA Novosti.
    "This year, the construction of the first IL-96-400 aircraft should be completed. Before that, as you know, we produced the Il-96-300 for the special flight detachment "Russia", military departments, transportation of the head of state and the prime minister," he said.

    "If necessary, the IL-96 can be launched into a limited series (for civil aviation - ed.) - About two or three aircraft a year to provide long-haul transportation. So far, there is no particular need for this, but the IL-96 turned out to be very successful, all pilots praise this model," the deputy prime minister added.

    meanwhile in a previous article on VASO .....

    Two more Il-96-300 airframes (serials 00-26 and 00-27)
    have been seen at VASO under construction and these should be completed
    within an unknown time frame for the state customer

    so it seems 2x airframes for the smaller Il-96-300 are taking shape elsewhere but haven't reached the final assembly floor

    I've seen photos of VASO where there 2x fuselages of Il-96s being built next to each other ....

    found it ...
    https://alejandro-8.blogspot.com/2016/12/galeria-de-fotos-de-la-fabrica-de.html

    interesting photos .... when they were still building An-148s
    looks a lot like the Embraer KC-390 military jet





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    GarryB
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:48 am

    The Russian market could probably use any Russian aircraft they can manage to get into production, they certainly need to massively expand the Il-476 production capacity because they also need Il-276s as well to start replacing their AN-12s which will need replacing very soon.

    With Tu-214 and Tu-204s going back into production I would say looking into making Tu-330s would also be worth while... a 35 ton payload transport based on the Tu-204 would make good sense and the extra payload capacity could be used for extra fuel to allow it to carry 20 ton payloads a lot further, or 35 ton payloads the same distance as the An-12 could.

    Being a jet it would also be faster... and be able to fly over the weather instead of through it.
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Ilyushin 276 Samara option

    Post  Gazputin Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:36 am

    What it is noticeable is that Kazan , Ulyanovsk and Samara are all linked by the Volga ... last 2 are not that far apart at all

    if I was serious about the Il-276 ...

    I would get that Aviakor factory in Samara to build the wings and tails and ship them up to Ulyanovsk by barge ...
    leave Ulyanovsk to do Il-276 fuselages .... and final assembly
    wings seem to the last bits to go on ... ship them in

    Samara has skilled labour
    and a dirty great empty factory .... looking for work
    the opposite of Ulyanovsk which has a chronic labour shortage
    too easy ...

    and why not Il-76 wings and stabilisers and tails first ?

    Airbus Wales ships A350 wings to Toulouse via Bordeaux on barges .....
    Samara is a lot closer to Ulyanovsk than that ..... should be a doddle by comparison




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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty An-148 70% local components ....

    Post  Gazputin Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:42 pm

    "On 28 June 2009, the first serially produced An-148, manufactured at VASO in Voronezh, took to the skies.[12] Although numerous companies are involved in the project, at least 70% of the aircraft's hardware is made by Russian manufacturers"

    70% ...... the engines are typically 25% of the cost of the plane .....
    that An-148 is basically domestic .....

    no wonder the Govt has 20+ of them ....
    guess they are used to retire old Tu-134s etc

    and today ....
    seems 6x in storage about to hit the air again soon

    https://topcor.ru/25227-an-148-vernut-v-rossijskoe-nebo.html

    The UAC is going to restore the airworthiness of six An-148 passenger aircraft in storage and return them to the Russian sky. We are talking about five aircraft, which were first located at Rossiya Airlines (a subsidiary of the state carrier Aeroflot), and later at Saratov Airlines (a subsidiary of the UAC leasing company - IFK - Ilyushin Finance Co.), and one board of Angara Airlines.

    guess the smart thing to do is find out where most of the govt fleet operates from .... and run these from same airport
    wherever that is .... and use same service workshop






    It is planned that these aircraft will perform regional flights.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Tu-214 build schedule

    Post  Gazputin Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:57 am

    translation is a bit messy ...
    but I think it is saying

    2023 x3
    2024 x7
    2025 x10


    2023 is probably going to be better than it looks on paper
    as you will probably get carry over of say 2x 1/2 built aircraft from 2023 into 2024 etc


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Serial production guru goes to VASO from Aviastar to serialise the Il-96 ?

    Post  Gazputin Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:15 pm

    this is interesting

    some background on serial production lines of "Western" design ....
    sometimes known as jigless robotic lines ... laser alignment of modules etc
    generally the key piece of the plane the wing/body joint segment is the "jig" and everything else "aligns" with that -
    so you make that piece extremely accurately ..... as it is the "jig"
    jig on the "inside" is probably a better description ... saves 30% of time

    anyway
    story is that the French helped Sukhoi in Kommson-whatever setup the jigless serial line for the SSJ-100
    but then they noticed that this tech suddenly appeared on the Su-35 line nearby .... so they refused to help further "sanctioning it"

    this guy comes from that very project

    Stanislav Gretchenko became the head of the branch of PJSC "IL" - VASO
    https://www.aex.ru/news/2022/4/22/243571/

    seems this guy then went to Aviastar to setup their jigless production line for the Il-76.MD90A

    now he is moving over to VASO .... where the Il-96 is made
    this guy is a production engineer .... not a product engineer

    "Stanislav Gretchenko has deep knowledge of the production system and management skills. He participated in the establishment of serial production of the SuperJet 100, the construction of a new technological line for the assembly of IL-76MD-90A transporters"

    what is this about ? ... "serialising" the Il-96 .... wtf
    more Il-96s ? for what .....

    are they going to resurrect that IL-96-500T transporter project ?
    or was it alive the whole time ?
    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/ilyushin-reveals-il-96-500t-wide-body-freighter-project/

    ie instead of trying to restart the An-124 line
    this is a lot easier and cheaper

    .... note "between 2026 and 2034" below

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/ilyushin-reveals-il-96-500t-wide-body-freighter-project/

    "Ilyushin is counting on producing 16 airframes of the type in the period between 2026 and 2034.
    Of this number, six are intended for Russia’s defence ministry,
    and a further six would be available for lease to commercial operators through the lessor Ilyushin Finance Company.
    The remaining four IL-96-500Ts are proposed for Russia’s space agency Roscosmos
    and the China-Russia Commercial Aircraft International Corporation (CRAIC), a Sino-Russian joint venture that is currently designing the CR929 wide-body, long-haul airliner programme."

    Rogozin was behind this in his tenure at UAC .... he wanted it to fly stuff to the new Vostochny Cosmodrome in the East
    for fragile satellites and other bulky stuff that wouldn't fit through the railway tunnel near Baikal or survive such a long rail trip

    thing is Airbus are thinking the EXACT same thing right now ....
    Airbus are looking to turn their Beluga .... fuselage transport plane
    into a competitor/replacement for the An-124 in bulky transport commercial market

    https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airbus-charter-out-whale-shaped-beluga-transport-planes-2022-01-25/

    might be more life left in the Il-96 than we thought
    and that Il-96-500T looks to be using the fuselage length of the 400 ... not the 300

    seems we may well be looking at the longer 400 getting settled in production by this guy
    then the 500 Beluga is next ....

    seems a pragmatic solution to bulky transport to me .... interesting days
    as always with Russians around .... pragmatic







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    lancelot
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  lancelot Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:31 pm

    The issue with the An-124 is there isn't a full production chain of things like the engines. So how would you engage in large serial production?
    There was talk of either modifying the Tu-160 engines, the NK-32, or making a version of the PD-35. But the NK-32 is still in low rate production with all accounted for Tu-160 and future PAK-DA. And the PD-35 itself is still under development and will not be ready for several years. So there are no engines for this production.

    The Il-96 at least has a full production chain inside Russia.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Il-96-500T

    Post  Gazputin Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:53 am


    the great irony is western sanctions appear to bringing this project back to life ....

    btw
    found another article on the Il-96-500T - key point is well pointed out

    the shape of the An-124 hold is no good for transporting "circular" rocket and aircraft fuselages anyway
    due to its high wing design

    for a "guppy or baluga " ..... you need to start with a low wing design .... like the Il-96

    https://new.topru.org/ilyushin-predlagaet-il-96-500t-vmesto-an-124/

    Volga-Dnepr will snap them up for sure too ...



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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty benchmarking SSJ-100 volumes with new production technique

    Post  Gazputin Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:15 pm

    found production numbers for the SSJ-100 after they went to the new jigless assembly technique
    assume these are "green" planes .... unpainted and no passenger cabin fitout yet

    http://superjet.wikidot.com/register

    they managed to assemble 36 in 1x year in 2014
    ( recently they said they can max out at 40 pa )
    they do seem more comfortable around 20-24 pa though ...

    36 in a year is close enough to 1x every 1.5 weeks
    that is pretty impressive ... SSJ-100 is a 25 ton plane .... that is a good little factory alright

    meanwhile
    Aviastar's new line Il-76 line (based on the SSJ-100 jigless production line technology)
    they claim could max out at 18 p.a.
    that's 1.5 per month .... or 1x every 2.6 weeks
    Il-76 weighs 100 tons .... I find that hard to believe ....

    as a cross-reference using weights
    Il-76 weighs 4x that of the SSJ-100
    1.5 weeks x4 = 6weeks to do an Il-76 .... sounds far more realistic = 8-9 p.a.

    ok - split the difference 18+8= 26/2 = approx 12
    12 p.a - 1 per month ..... seems a pretty sane goal to me
    18? whoa ....

    meanwhile over at VASO

    Il-96 weighs 120 tons ..... 20% more than an Il-76
    so 20% less than 12 p.a. = 10 p.a.

    they won't need that many .... wide bodies are for big passenger hub travel
    4-5 is probably plenty
    mostly freighters I would suspect ....
    payback ? .... forever ? its strategic .... who cares
    particularly that Il-96-500T as a backup OS freighter to take the pressure off the An-124

    VASO doesn't look too daunting
    nor does the SSJ-100 factory

    Aviastar is where all the heat is .... that's for sure

















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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:43 pm

    Gazputin wrote:

    they won't need that many .... wide bodies are for big passenger hub travel
    4-5 is probably plenty
    mostly freighters I would suspect ....




    Aeroflot has 7 Airbus-350 2 A-330-200 and 22 Boeing 777-300ER, so yes long range wide bodies are needed. Flights to
    South America or South of China/India or Africa.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_fleet
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:56 am

    Large long range aircraft would be useful to Russia because Russia is a big country and to reach markets like Africa and Asia an central and south America then big planes are a real advantage.

    I would think Russia would be better off focussing on getting Il-476s into full production and also Il-106 aircraft or an equivalent into production should be their highest priority. Extra production capacity for the Il-476 could also be used to make Il-276s when the extra Il-476s are not so urgent, but they need production capacity for 20 ton and 60 ton and 80-100 ton capacity weight classes which could be Il-276, Il-476, and Il-106 respectively.

    The An-22 was heavily used and popular and the Il-106 fits into that niche role and would take pressure off the An-124s which can do the same thing but at greater costs.

    Getting PD24 or 26 engines for An-124s would improve reliability and performance but longer term it is just a place filler with the Il-106 and Slon being the future of Russian heavy transport planes... the latter could include a version with an H tail for external loads carried piggy back.

    With the Tu-204/214 going back into production then I would say the Tu-330 should also be looked at again as a 35 ton capacity aircraft would be useful as well and could be produced at the Tu-204 factory when enough of those have been built to meet short term needs... then the Tu-204s that had been produced could be converted to cargo planes for the civil roles and the factory making Tu-214s can make other variants for the military and civilian use while the factory making Tu-204s could shift to Tu-330s for military and civilian transport needs of a roll on roll off nature.

    Il-276 could be made in excess Il-476 production factories when production increases to the point where needs are met for domestic and export use.

    The reduced size Il-276 would compliment the Il-476 with commonality and operating together and would likely be a good export earner too.

    Here in New Zealand we have C-130s which are relatively slow and relatively short ranged... and flys through weather that jets could fly over making them more comfortable too.

    Flights to the islands normally involve island hopping because range limitations of the C-130 which is not something we should have.

    We should have a C-141 or Il-476 at the very least and possibly a C-17/Il-106 type that could fly to places in one hop and deliver products and extra fuel for the locals instead of using up their supplies.

    Obviously Russian aircraft are not options for us politically but they would be the sensible choices.

    Il-106 produced in factories currently set for making An-124 would make sense as that Soviet design is essentially over.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Aviastar

    Post  Gazputin Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:32 pm

    I have been talking about production engineering ... not product engineering

    Aviastar
    from the numbers I crunched a 2nd flowline in the Il-76 factory makes sense to me
    put the Il-276 and the Il-78 inflight refueller down that line - use the 2nd line for your "non-standard spec" models
    keep your main line for building stock standard Il-76s like sausages

    I would classify the Il-276 as a "no-brainer " it can be built using jigless production ...
    they just don't have any capacity for it yet

    and as I suggested before get Aviakor at Samara to build wing and tail kits and ship them up the river on barges
    would certainly help Aviastar get its capacity up

    that SSJ-100 factory really hums .... that is a good indicator
    as the MC-21 (a plane about 1/3 bigger than the SSJ) can be setup as a clone of the SSJ line
    probably with twice the capacity with very little technical risk

    that to me is very positive
    the MC-21 factory will be very successful I am sure

    the Il-76 factory now that it has replicated the SSJ factory should be very positive too
    I just am not sure have well it can replicate the SSJ factory with such big aircraft ... 4x bigger
    I am yet to be convinced they will scale it up so well .... time will tell
    I hope I am wrong ....

    and as I have said it seems the decision has been made to upgrade the VASO Il-96 line

    also at MIG a jigless production line for the Il-114 has gone in
    a simple task .... a shrunken SSJ production line .... too easy

    VASO
    the jigless production engineer is heading to VASO next to work on the Il-96 line
    a no-brainer .... the only widebody line in Russia ...

    that leaves Tupolev
    those Tu-214s will be built the old way ....
    the MC-21 will eventually crush it

    so proposing to build a range off the Tu-214 is not going to happen ...

    an entire review of Tupolev's activities in civil and transport aircraft needs to happen
    probably is .... as in massive .... a product review before any production line stuff happens

    Will Tupolev revert back to the long-range aviation hub of Russia's attack force ?
    and convert Tu-214s into P-8 clones ?
    I'm sure there are big discussions going on

    Il-106
    sure every kid wants every lolly in the lolly shop .....
    in the here and now .... the best way to support your An-124s

    my entire point has been through all this is ...
    if you went to your production engineers - what would they be saying to you ?

    and they would be saying ..... Il-106 ..... is a distant goal
    and that to support your An-124s with what you have in production ?
    they would say the Il-96-500T .... as there is no other current production alternative

    and it gives you new options being low-wing .... can be very handy to transport fuselages and spacecraft
    and other bulky cargoes .... rather than heavy cargoes
    I would sign-off on it for sure

    (I am a big fan of that Il-276 too btw
    here in Oz
    we are thrashing the life out of our C-17s and the Hercules are sitting around as accommodation for mice
    as for such a big country Hercules are way too slow
    our dopey military should have bought that Brazilian C-390 jet ... )


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    mnztr


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  mnztr Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:57 am

    Can they design an XLR verison of the MC-21 (like the A321 XLR) I think this would be a great concept for Russia as any future long haul will likely be point to point. I was reading that the Russian avionics for MC-21 will be ready in 2023. Of course the P&W engine will no longer be offered. With an XLR version Russia can easily offer flights to every point on the planet with 1 stop from any point in Russia. It can pretty much replicate what the ME3 do. With smaller planes it can offer higher frequency. The MC-21-600 should be the next variant

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    GarryB
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:50 am

    I have been talking about production engineering ... not product engineering

    Yeah, fair enough, but you produce what you need and not what you can...

    They have production capacity for An-140s and An-124s but there is no need for more of either of those and more An-124s makes little sense without more engines too.

    Edit: production for the An-124s should be allocated for production of Il-106s and production for An-140s should be allocated for the Let-610 model variants they are apparently making...

    More production for Il-476 makes sense because it is needed and useful and also Il-276s can be produced in such factories too and the need for 20 ton payload transports to replace the aging An-12s is becoming urgent because the Il-276s has not flown yet... despite years of screwing around with India and the MTA programme.

    They have Tu-204 and Tu-214 production capacity... the Tu-330 is based on those aircraft airframes with over 70% commonality according to sources I have read from a few years back... ideally they want the Superjet and MS-21s in production because they are the newest and bestest but are not totally Russian yet so while they are becoming import substituted producing Tu-204s and Tu-214s makes sense because factories to make each already exist and pushing some money to boost production gets decent Russian aircraft available sooner.

    The bonus is that the Tu-214 was being built for the military to replace a few obsolete types and could also be used as a lighter inflight refuelling aircraft for tactical aircraft or drones and could also be built in configurations for Elint and other jobs including a replacement for the Il-38 May.

    When they have the superjet and MS-21 in full production the civilian airliners of the Tupolev type that were made could be converted to cargo roles, and production of the Tu-204 could shift to the Tu-330 transport type in the 35 ton payload category that would further help deal with the retirement of a lot of An-12s over the next decade or so.

    The Il-106 is a very good aircraft and also makes sense to put into production... it fits a niche between the 62 tons the Il-476s can carry and the 120-150 tons the An-124s can carry. Being smaller and lighter than the An-124s they will be cheaper to operate for all jobs except those near the capacity of the An-124 where the An-124 would be the preferred choice.

    That just leaves the Slon, which is waiting for PD-35 engines and would be in the 180 ton payload class with possible versions using an H tail for external payloads on its back for the space industry.

    The Slon could simply be a scaled up Il-106 with PD-35 engines eventually where the Il-106 has two and the Slon has four... to start with the Il-106 could have 4 x PS-90 engines in the 18 ton thrust class with a payload of perhaps 80 tons, but later with two 35 ton PD-35 engines perhaps payload capacity could be expanded to 100-110 tons.

    I am yet to be convinced they will scale it up so well .... time will tell
    I hope I am wrong ....

    If it is a better way to make planes or to serially produce planes then it should be applied whereever possible.

    that leaves Tupolev
    those Tu-214s will be built the old way ....
    the MC-21 will eventually crush it

    It makes no sense for Tupolev to not use the latest production techniques, there is plenty of scope for new aircraft in both civilian and military Russia... I am not sure an MS-21 would be ideal for the Russian military... they already have versions of the Tu-204 in service in various roles and that includes a replacement for the Tu-134 Crusty modified to carry the radar of the Blackjack for bomber training... they have production facilities, it just makes sense to use them to make planes... not in enormous volumes but the Russian military don't need them in enormous numbers.

    an entire review of Tupolev's activities in civil and transport aircraft needs to happen
    probably is .... as in massive .... a product review before any production line stuff happens

    They seem to have production capacity right now of Tu-204 and Tu-214 in two separate factories... it makes sense to use them to produce aircraft now... a brand new set of engines would make them competitive with any western equivalent today.

    Will Tupolev revert back to the long-range aviation hub of Russia's attack force ?
    and convert Tu-214s into P-8 clones ?
    I'm sure there are big discussions going on

    I think the Tu-214 would be a good replacement for the Il-38 which is getting a bit long in the tooth.... there are versions with ranges of 10,000km plus which would be ideal.

    Il-106
    sure every kid wants every lolly in the lolly shop .....
    in the here and now .... the best way to support your An-124s

    I disagree, it is a dead end product of another country that has no future. Don't throw them away, but don't keep them forever either.

    Smaller lighter cheaper planes to replace the An-124 (Il-106) makes sense rather than continuing to use something that needs to go.

    It all hinges on the engines.

    and they would be saying ..... Il-106 ..... is a distant goal
    and that to support your An-124s with what you have in production ?

    An-124s are a dead end... don't invest too much money into something that wont be in the inventory in the 2030s.

    Il-106 was ready to go but was killed because it was an enormous threat to the C-17 and still is because it will likely be affordable and much more capable.

    With newer engines it should be even better.

    they would say the Il-96-500T .... as there is no other current production alternative

    It was killed because it was Russian and for no other reason. Russian airlines bought slightly cheaper western aircraft instead of investing in their own aircraft makers and now they are in the shit because the west has totally betrayed them and are doing everything they can to hurt and damage them even now.

    and it gives you new options being low-wing .... can be very handy to transport fuselages and spacecraft
    and other bulky cargoes .... rather than heavy cargoes
    I would sign-off on it for sure

    Not sure what you mean.... the An-225 which was designed specifically from the outset to carry bulky large external loads on its back has a high wing and an H tail.

    (I am a big fan of that Il-276 too btw
    here in Oz
    we are thrashing the life out of our C-17s and the Hercules are sitting around as accommodation for mice
    as for such a big country Hercules are way too slow
    our dopey military should have bought that Brazilian C-390 jet ... )

    It is frustrating.... the Hercs were fantastic planes but they are not designed for the arse end of the world where you have to fly thousands of kms to reach the next bit of land. When we fly to the pacific we have to island hop which means going to remote islands and using up their fuel supplies to get to where we are going... it would be much better if we had a bigger longer ranged aircraft like an Il-476 that could fly where we want to go in one hop and deliver extra fuel for the locals to use.

    It would also be a more comfortable ride being able to fly over the weather rather than through it...

    We could probably get three LAVs into an Il-476 instead of a stripped down one in a Herc.

    With an Il-106 that wont cost half a billion each to buy, we could probably carry four with ammo and crew and equipment...

    But then I remember in the 1990s when Sukhoi offered to Australia a joint development to design and build an Su-35 and also an Su-34 that Australia could make locally to replace their Hornets and F-111s, and also cooperation in a long range air to air missile... later identified as the KS-172 400km range two stage missile that does not seem to have gotten anywhere... it was the competition with the R-37M it seems.

    Never going to happen politically despite it being a good solution militarily.

    With an XLR version Russia can easily offer flights to every point on the planet with 1 stop from any point in Russia.

    Longer ranged models would make a lot of sense simply because of the distances in Russia and to other countries including China etc etc.
    flamming_python
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:17 pm

    Well in the current passanger aviation line-up we have in production:

    Diamond DA40, civil trainer aircraft, UWCA (Ekaterinburg)
    Yak-18T, civil trainer aircraft, SmAZ (Smolensk)
    L-42/44, 4-seater seaplane light transport, Aviatekh (Samara)
    Be-103, 5-seater seaplane light transport, KnAAPO (Komsomolsk-on-Amur)
    La-8, 8-seater seaplane light transport, AeroVolga (Samara)
    SM-2000, 5-seater light transport, SmAZ (Smolensk)
    L-410, 15-19 seater light transport, UWCA (Ekaterinburg)
    SSJ 100, 87-108 seater passenger airliner, KnAAPO (Komsomolsk-on-Amur)
    MS-21-200/300, 130-211 seater passenger airliners, Irkut (Irkutsk)
    Tu-204 family, 142-210 seater passenger airliners, Aviastar-SP (Ulyanovsk)
    Tu-214, 164-210 seater passenger airliner, KAPO (Kazan)
    Il-96, 237-300 seater passanger airliner, VASO (Voronezh)

    Up and coming:

    LMS-901 Baikal, 9-14 seater light transport, UWCA (Ekaterinburg), 2023
    TVRS-44 (L-610), 44 seater passenger airliner, UWCA (Ekaterinburg), 2025
    Il-114-300, 52-68 seater passenger airliner, MiG (Lukhovitsy)/VASO (Voronezh), 2023
    MS-21-400, 256 seater passenger airliner, Irkut (Irkutsk), 2024-2025?
    CR929 family, 230-320 seater passenger airliners, CRAIC (China-Russia), 2029?
    Il-96-400M, 370-390 seater passenger airliner, VASO (Voronezh), 2024

    I suspect there will be some problems now, especially with the models that use Western engines or components. That's the SSJ series, although import-substitution models are being worked on. The TVRS-44 plans may fall through as its a Czech model, although the L-410 and Diamond DA40 can potentially be nationalized.

    There can be some projects that can be revived as well, such as the Tu-334 to offer competition to the SSJ 100, or the SSJ 75 as an alternative to the Il-114-300.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Gazputin


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Airbus 321 XLRs and NEOs etc

    Post  Gazputin Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:40 pm

    now this is a REALLY interesting topic

    if you look at these NEO type Airbuses
    they now have such stretched fuselages and passenger capacity
    and range re those wide diameter high bypass engines ....

    they exactly resemble .... you guessed it Boeing 757 and Tu-214s .....
    that is a great observation

    Boeing can't respond as its 737s have too short undercarriage to fit these big diameter engines

    So these Airbuses are really popular with holiday travel etc
    instead of flying on a wide body from one big hub to another - then switching to a smaller regional plane to get to the beach
    these NEOs fly direct to the regional airport and are small enough to land there
    completely bypassing the big hubs .... and the dreaded "lost luggage" they are infamous for .....

    the wheel has turned ....

    so yeah I can see a role for Tu-214s flying Russians to holiday resorts .... definitely
    (but I suspect the west will then try to introduce new "noise standards" that just happen to exclude the PS-90)
    unfair competition is the west's speciality ....

    Re Tupolev
    Vlad has said he wants all milplex sites to make civil products too
    so they will get something you would think .....
    they were mulling over a "quiet" supersonic airliner ?







    flamming_python
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:53 pm

    Who cares what noise standards the West introduces. It's their market, their rules.

    Russia has its own, and the rest of the world have their own too. The main thing is to prevent the West from imposing its own standards on the rest of the world now. That's what the battle will be for.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 29 Empty VK-800SM UZGA

    Post  Gazputin Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:13 am

    the engine designed to replace the engine on the L-410
    (and use on Baikal 9 seater ... and possibly a trainer aircraft)
    it was being developed by UWCA not Klimov who designed it
    it seems hard to find out what is actually happening there

    but it does seem to be on that new UAV - Altius-R prototypes
    if so - what a great way to rack up kms for a new engine - an aircraft with no pilot

    and the Altius-R is assembled by the UWCA offshoot in Kazan ...

    here we go found something on UWCA ... or UZGA ..... massive article

    UZGA: THE WAY FROM REPAIR - TO ASSEMBLY AND DESIGN
    https://www.aviaport.ru/news/2022/03/16/712555.html

    "Today, UWCA continues to assemble a prototype of the engine, which in 2022 will be put on bench tests.
    Factory development is planned to be completed by 2023, and over the next year the company expects to conduct certification tests of the new engine.
    Thus, in 2024 it is planned to begin serial production of the LMS-901 with the VK-800SM engine."

    So if Altius-R is buzzing around with VK-800 engines - they are hand built it seems
    probably built at Klimov is my guess ? certification ? who cares its military and has no test pilot

    I know they are trying to build 18x Altius-R by the end of 2022 ....
    all a bit confusing ....

    I was getting the impression with the VK-800 it was a fairly old design that was brought back to life
    and that a review at CIAM of it recommended they look into updating the design to incorporation 3D printed parts ?
    ie saying the engine is fine .... just simplify it for assembly before mass production ?
    I remember it was a woman who headed the design review ....

    Klimov was going to concentrate on the helicopter engine .... UWCA would do the aircraft engine ?
    share the load

    hang on .... what's this

    The timing for certification of the aircraft engine VK-800С is specified
    https://en.topwar.ru/155263-utochneny-sroki-vyhoda-na-sertifikaciju-aviadvigatelja-vk-800s.html

    in any case UWCA plans to put it on 3x aircraft it builds .... maybe 4 if you include the proposed basic trainer
    L-410, Baikal 9, Altius-R .... UTS-800 trainer

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