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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:23 pm

    mnztr wrote:Isn't that the CR929?

    The CR929 is a plane created at the request of China that will be produced in China. Russia has no need for this, since they have the know how, the plane (Il-96) and the production cpacity, which they need transferred to China like a hole in the head. They will cash the ToT and help and maybe get the workload for some pieces and a portion of the engines. But their commercial aviation industry cannot be contingent on what the Chinese want.

    If they can build it it should be a decent plane, but Russian engines lost about 20 years of development during the collapse of the USSR, not sure if they can catch up in a single leap.

    Well, as you said, that is the CR929. If the PD-35 is not up to the task, then the eventual Il-96 version using it would not be affected any worse than the model designed with China.

    Russian composites are good and comparable, aerodynamics I would guage as superior metallurgy comparable, software superior (better quality but less quantity). Russia has a harsher operating environment so I am not sure if a plane that matches Western planes in efficiency may not be just too fragile to be suitable for Russia, that said a lot of western planes seem to be doing ok in Russia, but I am not sure if they are operated in the harshest conditions.

    Composite wing is very superior in aero and weight, so it is needed. The using conditions in Russia should be completely compatible with international requirements for foreign planes and airlines, these planes will not be operating in Siberia or the Arctic but in international airports mainly.

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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:53 pm

    BTW these plans for the Il-96 have been ongoing for decades, this is an old proposal named Il-98:

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 10 Il-98-10

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:07 pm

    LMFS wrote:BTW these plans for the Il-96 have been ongoing for decades, this is an old proposal named Il-98:

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 10 Il-98-10

    That the drunkard jackass Boorish Welpsin killed. Mad

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:09 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Isn't that the CR929?

    The CR929 is a plane created at the request of China that will be produced in China. Russia has no need for this, since they have the know how, the plane (Il-96) and the production cpacity, which they need transferred to China like a hole in the head. They will cash the ToT and help and maybe get the workload for some pieces and a portion of the engines. But their commercial aviation industry cannot be contingent on what the Chinese want.

    If they can build it it should be a decent plane, but Russian engines lost about 20 years of development during the collapse of the USSR, not sure if they can catch up in a single leap.

    Well, as you said, that is the CR929. If the PD-35 is not up to the task, then the eventual Il-96 version using it would not be affected any worse than the model designed with China.

    Russian composites are good and comparable, aerodynamics I would guage as superior metallurgy comparable, software superior (better quality but less quantity). Russia has a harsher operating environment so I am not sure if a plane that matches Western planes in efficiency may not be just too fragile to be suitable for Russia, that said a lot of western planes seem to be doing ok in Russia, but I am not sure if they are operated in the harshest conditions.

    Composite wing is very superior in aero and weight, so it is needed. The using conditions in Russia should be completely compatible with international requirements for foreign planes and airlines, these planes will not be operating in Siberia or the Arctic but in international airports mainly.

    The CR929 is not only needed by China, indeed Russia has a need for about 15-25 aircraft of this type.

    But it's not on the list of priorities for sure. It's main value are the Russian components used, like the engines; the success of this aircraft on the world market can bring in big profits for Russian enterprises.
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:57 pm

    flamming_python wrote:The CR929 is not only needed by China, indeed Russia has a need for about 15-25 aircraft of this type.

    But it's not on the list of priorities for sure. It's main value are the Russian components used, like the engines; the success of this aircraft on the world market can bring in big profits for Russian enterprises.

    Of this type, correct, that means modernized Il-96 to me. If the Chinese sell the CR929 abroad and buy say 50% of the engines to Russia, then it is even better. But in the rather short term, China will not need Russia at all and if you don't develop your own plane you will be left behind. Chinese are not an NGO
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:23 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:The CR929 is not only needed by China, indeed Russia has a need for about 15-25 aircraft of this type.

    But it's not on the list of priorities for sure. It's main value are the Russian components used, like the engines; the success of this aircraft on the world market can bring in big profits for Russian enterprises.

    Of this type, correct, that means modernized Il-96 to me. If the Chinese sell the CR929 abroad and buy say 50% of the engines to Russia, then it is even better. But in the rather short term, China will not need Russia at all and if you don't develop your own plane you will be left behind. Chinese are not an NGO

    The CR929 is better for very long range travel, it's more economic with only 2 engines per jet, and it's simply a newer model equipped with the latest technologies

    So Moscow - New-York, Moscow-Johanessburg, Moscow-San Paolo, Moscow-Beijing, Moscow-Mumbai - on all such routes the plane would be useful

    If they manage to come up with a 2-engine Il-96; then that would be something to look into, and indeed Russia has a large demand for long-range jets; but the CR929's niche is long-range international travel specifically between large world cities whose clients can afford to pay more.
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    Post  Kiko Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:07 am

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    Post  Backman Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:59 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:.

    Of this type, correct, that means modernized Il-96 to me. If the Chinese sell the CR929 abroad and buy say 50% of the engines to Russia, then it is even better. But in the rather short term, China will not need Russia at all and if you don't develop your own plane you will be left behind. Chinese are not an NGO

    The CR929 is better for very long range travel, it's more economic with only 2 engines per jet, and it's simply a newer model equipped with the latest technologies

    So Moscow - New-York, Moscow-Johanessburg, Moscow-San Paolo, Moscow-Beijing, Moscow-Mumbai - on all such routes the plane would be useful

    If they manage to come up with a 2-engine Il-96; then that would be something to look into, and indeed Russia has a large demand for long-range jets; but the CR929's niche is long-range international travel specifically between large world cities whose clients can afford to pay more.

    Its basically just a matter of engines which is a big thing. The IL-96 is modernized already. Which is what makes the 4 engines such a bummer. I just don't believe the idea that it would cost just as much to make a new 2 engine wing for the IL-96 as it would to build a new plane.

    It is a serious debate in the industry if an all carbon fiber fuselage is worth it. The aluminum fuselage doesn't make the IL-96 obsolete. If you wear out an airframe and didn't get the fuel savings to cover for the higher cost for composite, then you should have just bought aluminum. Plus there are some tricky maintenance issues with 787/A350



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    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:20 am

    Backman wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:.

    Of this type, correct, that means modernized Il-96 to me. If the Chinese sell the CR929 abroad and buy say 50% of the engines to Russia, then it is even better. But in the rather short term, China will not need Russia at all and if you don't develop your own plane you will be left behind. Chinese are not an NGO

    The CR929 is better for very long range travel, it's more economic with only 2 engines per jet, and it's simply a newer model equipped with the latest technologies

    So Moscow - New-York, Moscow-Johanessburg, Moscow-San Paolo, Moscow-Beijing, Moscow-Mumbai - on all such routes the plane would be useful

    If they manage to come up with a 2-engine Il-96; then that would be something to look into, and indeed Russia has a large demand for long-range jets; but the CR929's niche is long-range international travel specifically between large world cities whose clients can afford to pay more.

    Its basically just a matter of engines which is a big thing. The IL-96 is modernized already. Which is what makes the 4 engines such a bummer. I just don't believe the idea that it would cost just as much to make a new 2 engine wing for the IL-96 as it would to build a new plane.

    Well the new aircraft is already going to be built, and it's already being financed, on the Chinese dime I might add

    As for the Il-96; when they come up with something for it, then we can assess it.
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    Post  UZB-76 Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:49 pm

    LMFS wrote:BTW these plans for the Il-96 have been ongoing for decades, this is an old proposal named Il-98:

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 10 Il-98-10
    Would love to see planes in reality

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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:19 pm

    Also what is it with Russian commercial aircraft of this era needing 3 crew members?

    The Russian airlines used to prefer three man crews, pilot, copilot, and engineer, because with three crew it was easier to have at least one fluent in English, which is required to communicate with traffic air control.

    Having an extra crewman meant they could get through checklists faster and their turnaround time was quicker so they could get to earlier takeoff slots that a two crew aircraft might miss.

    The CR929 is better for very long range travel, it's more economic with only 2 engines per jet, and it's simply a newer model equipped with the latest technologies

    Not sure that the CR929 will be all that superior to a twin engined Il-96. Engines are the most important factor and wings is next, but fuselage design has not evolved all that much... with some seating configurations the Il-96 might be superior to a newer aircraft design.

    I just don't believe the idea that it would cost just as much to make a new 2 engine wing for the IL-96 as it would to build a new plane.

    It wouldn't.

    The Tu-95 and the Il-76 have both had several wing redesigns... if they cost as much as rebuilding a new plane they would have done that instead.

    As for the Il-96; when they come up with something for it, then we can assess it.

    Both are waiting for engines.

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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:42 pm

    UZB-76 wrote:Would love to see planes in reality

    This is relatively "low hanging fruit" for the Russian industry, so I think it is even likely.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:30 pm

    UEC is ready to assemble the gas generator of the first PD-8 prototype engine
    13.04.2021, 11:28 442

    United Engine Corporation has completed the production of the main components and systems of experimental gas generators of the new promising PD-8 engine. A high-pressure compressor, a combustion chamber and a high-pressure turbine are ready for assembly as part of a single product. The next stage of work will be the assembly of the gas generator, the UEC press service reported.

    During the development work on PD-8, technological preparation of production was carried out and the production of the entire range of parts and assembly units of the gas generator was mastered, including such high-tech ones as monowheels of the 1st and 2nd stages of the high-pressure compressor, a block of disks of 3-5 stages of the high-pressure compressor, a high-pressure turbine disk.

    "In the production of parts and assemblies of the gas generator of a promising engine, advanced technological processes and modern equipment are used, including the formation of the main engine parts in an additive way, "said Yuri Shmotin, Deputy General Director and General Designer of UEC JSC.

    The production of prototype gas generators is necessary to determine the characteristics of the main components of the hot part of a gas turbine engine, evaluate their joint operation, and also to confirm the operability of the main parts.

    The creation of the PD-8 main propulsion system for use on SSJ-NEW aircraft is carried out in a broad cooperation of UEC enterprises using the positive experience of creating the PD-14 engine.

    https://aviation21.ru/odk-gotova-k-sborke-gazogeneratora-pervogo-opytnogo-dvigatelya-pd-8/

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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:04 am

    UEC to test PD-35 gas generator in September 2021
    19.04.2021, 17:18 283

    UEC-Perm Motors and UEC-Aviadvigatel planned to test the PD-35 gas generator in September 2021, according to the press service of the company. On the Telegram channel MAKS Air Show with reference to Alexander Inozemtsev, Managing Director and General Designer of UEC - Aviadvigatel JSC.

    "This year we will assemble and test the PD-35 gas generator in September. This is the "heart" of the engine, it is 70% of the technical and technological problems that can be detected during testing, " he said.

    Comparing the work that the company has done over 10 years in the development of the PD-14 engine, Alexander Inozemtsev noted that for the PD-35, this is only half the way. "Now we have to go through another stage and create the next generation of technologies that will allow us to compete with the Americans and the British in high-thrust engines," the general designer added.

    During this year, UEC will also test other parts of the PD-35 engine made from domestic composites, including the working fan blade made of polymer composite materials, which will be manufactured using two different methods – using prepreg technology and 3D-weaving technology.

    In 2022, the first samples of fan blades should be obtained, which can later be used not only on the PD-35, but also on the updated version of the PD-14 engine, as well as in the interests of third-party customers.

    In the future, based on the PD-35, it is planned to create a family of aircraft engines of various thrust up to 50 tons. The launch of ground tests of the engine is scheduled for mid-2023. Flight tests at the flying laboratory are scheduled to start in 2025. The PD-35 type certificate is scheduled to be issued in 2027.

    In 2016, Alexander Inozemtsev reportedthat the total investment in the PD-35 project is 180 billion rubles. Serial production of the engine should be launched in 2028.

    The development of the PD-35 is one of the most ambitious projects in the Russian aircraft industry. In addition to UEC and UAC enterprises, almost all leading Russian research centers are involved in the work. In particular, the All-Russian Research Institute of Aviation Materials will help developers create new materials. TsAGI will conduct research that will make it possible to choose the optimal shape for the nacelles and pylon, and the Institute of Applied Mechanics will assist Aviadvigatel in physical and mathematical modeling and research in the field of mechanics.

    https://aviation21.ru/odk-ispytaet-gazogenerator-dvigatelya-pd-35-v-sentyabre-2021-goda/

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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:50 am

    IL-96-400M will be produced individually for special customers
    19.04.2021, 01:46 551

    April 16, 2021 newspaper «Vedomosti"It is reported that the resumption of serial production of the Il-96-400M wide-body long-haul airliner is not planned. The aircraft will be produced in one-piece copies for a special customer-SLO "Russia".

    It is impossible to say that this news was unexpected, because initially the same United Aircraft Corporation did not count on a large number of orders for this aircraft, and the production time of even the first prototype was postponed.

    One look back

    Reports about the resumption of production of the Il-96 in the Il-96-400M version and the development of a joint Russian-Chinese wide-body long-haul airliner CR929 appeared in 2014-2015. Initially, it was not entirely clear why it was necessary to develop two similar aircraft, to spend additional material and design resources on this. Full clarity was provided in September 2016 by Dmitry Rogozin, who during a visit to Voronezh said that in the period before the creation of the strategically new CR929 passenger aircraft, which is approximately 2027, the Il-96-400M will cover the main needs of Russia both for long-haul flights to the Far East and Kamchatka from the European part,and for charter flights during the holiday season to those countries where

    In May 2016, at a meeting on aviation development in Sochi, it was decided to resume production of Il-96-400M passenger aircraft. The Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov said at the time that it is planned to allocate about 50 billion rubles for the implementation of the project for the production of the liner for the period up to 2021.

    IL-96-400M is a project of a long-haul passenger aircraft with 300-430 seats based on the less spacious IL-96-300. The program involves the production of one prototype and six production vehicles. The total cost of the program is estimated at more than 53 billion rubles. It was planned to start deliveries of the updated airliner in 2025. This was announced on the sidelines of the Army Forum in August 2017 by UAC General Director Yuri Slyusar.

    "Last year, a decision was made to modernize this machine (Il-96-300 - Note: "AR") to the IL-96-400M variant, which has a larger capacity, new systems. 2025 - the beginning of deliveries of the aircraft in operation, eight to nine years the car will be produced in a small, limited quantity, " he said.

    On August 28, 2018, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev signed a decree according to which 4 billion rubles allocated to the State Transport Leasing Company were reallocated for the purchase of L-410 helicopters and aircraft. According to the previous version of the resolution, approved at the end of 2017, PJSC GTLK received 4 billion rubles from the budget to advance the order for two Il-96-400MS.

    In December 2018, UAC posted on the public procurement website a tender for the implementation of ROC for the modernization of the IL-96-300 into the IL-96-400M version. The tender documentation for these works included more than 10 billion rubles. Preliminary tests of the aircraft were to take place from November 2019 to January 2020, and additional certification tests were to be completed in May 2020.

    In September 2019, the slipway assembly of the first Il-96-400M was completed at the Voronezh Aircraft Factory (VASO), and the fuselage of the airliner was moved to the final assembly shop. And the dates of the first flight were postponed to 2021 instead of 2020.

    At the end of 2019, Yuri Slyusar said that the first flight should take place in late 2020-early 2021. "A small shift in the first flight may be due to the workload of the Voronezh Aircraft Factory, associated with the implementation of other orders. In parallel with the construction of the Il-96-400M prototype, aircraft are being built and repaired for special customers, and we have to reallocate efforts, " Slyusar said.

    Covid Reality

    In 2020, due to the pandemic, lockdown and the cessation of international air traffic, a large number of wide-body airliners around the world stopped flying and were sent to storage. Airlines have given priority to smaller aircraft, and part of their fleet of narrow-body airliners has been adapted for cargo transportation. The recovery of the aviation industry is predicted no earlier than in 1.5-2 years, and if in five years after the decision was made to resume production of the airliner, not even a single agreement of intent was concluded to buy the Il-96-400M, now in the context of the ongoing crisis in international air traffic, signing contracts with airlines looks all the more illusory. The Ministry of Industry and Trade in 2020, citing the lack of interest in the aircraft from commercial carriers, proposed redirecting another 7 billion rubles intended for the Il-96-400M program to the purchase of helicopters and IL-114-300 aircraft.

    "There is no order from airlines, and taking into account COVID-19 and the downtime of long-haul aircraft around the world, serial production of Il-96-400M is not yet planned," a representative of the profile Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov confirmed. He specified that production will be organized for state customers. «Vedomosti"they write that a total of two aircraft will be assembled, which will enter the fleet of the special flight detachment "Russia". A representative of Rostec confirmed that the manufacturer "has an understanding" on potential state customers:" It should be taken into account that this is not a mass – produced car initially, we are talking about a special aircraft that will be produced in single copies, " he stressed.

    "At the moment, the first prototype is at the final assembly stage. By the second half of 2021, it is planned to complete the production of the aircraft, then its preparation for the first flight will begin. Certification tests and obtaining an addendum to the type certificate are planned for 2022-2023, " the UAC representative said.

    The IL-96-400M was supposed to be a "transition" product for the period of creation of the CR929 SHFDMS. In addition, the Russian aviation industry needs to develop its existing competencies and load its production capacities. The production rate at VASO is not high, but, according to Yuri Slyusar, the Il-96-400M was supposed to maintain the existing competence and increase the number of aircraft in operation.

    IL-96-400M or CR929

    Russia is a big country, and it is necessary to transport people from the Far East and Kamchatka to the European part, so Russian airlines are not going to abandon long-haul airliners. Aeroflot plans to receive its 21st Boeing 777 in May, and three of these aircraft will go to the Red Wings fleet. In addition, Aeroflot is preparing to receive three A350s in May and July. The carrier received its first and so far only copy in February 2020. A firm contract for the supply of 22 A350 airliners was signed back in 2017, Vedomosti reports.

    The situation with wide-body aircraft for Russian airlines could be solved by a two-engine version of the Il-96, and there were such plans – with the installation of two PD-35 engines. But these engines are still at the development stage and will be ready by 2026. By that time, the real shape will have already acquired SHFDMS CR929.

    Installing promising new high-power engines on an airplane with a metal wing looks like a half-hearted solution. Here, as an example, we can cite the history of the creation of the MC-21 aircraft. In one of the interviews, the General Designer of the OKB named after him. Yakovlev Corporation "Irkut" Oleg Demchenko told that in the process of developing the design of the new airliner, he invited many leading specialists of the Russian aircraft industry for consultations, including Genrikh Novozhilov, with whom they discussed and argued a lot about what the future aircraft should be, and eventually came to a consensus that the wing must necessarily be composite.

    As for the IL-96-400M, the development of a composite wing for it will immediately entail the need to rework the center section, then the fuselage and tail, and this, in fact, is the development of a completely new aircraft with enormous financial, time and human costs. A completely new modern airframe and wing with high aerodynamic characteristics should be developed for the new powerful and economical engine. It is impractical and unsafe to use a design developed in the conditions of the previous technological order, just remember the infamous B737 MAX, where modern engines were installed on the design of the 60s of the last century, which radically changed the dynamic parameters of the aircraft not for the better.

    The decision to abandon the serial production of the IL-96-400M comes from the emerging realities. VASO will produce the number of these aircraft required by the special customer, while UAC and Irkut will focus on the promising Russian-Chinese CR929 airliner, which will meet the needs of the two countries for a wide-body modern aircraft.

    Andrey Velichko
    for the Russian Aviation website»

    https://aviation21.ru/il-96-400m-budet-vypuskatsya-shtuchno-dlya-speczakazchika/

    I don't agree with the rationale of the author, but it is always good to have additional details of the project

    1. The Il-96-400M is not a stop-gap measure until the CR929, it is a risk reduction measure by the Russian industry to re-train the industrial base and the designers, it does not make sense to develop it for the two or three odd copies the Russian government can order, much less considering the lack of resources and predictable shift to the right of the project
    2. I don't think any serial production of this plane was thought, since it would be unprofitable for the companies involved and would need to have its operation heavily subsidized by the state
    3. The 737MAX example is flawed since they put bigger engines without changing the wing, such was the hack Boeing perpetrated, since their executives preferred to put more cash in their pockets than doing things properly
    4. I am not sure the new composite wing would mean such a complete redesign of the plane, the author does not provide authoritative sources in that regard

    For me this plane represents the typical progressive, low risk Russian approach of not being 100% dependent on partners of any kind. If relations with the Chinese sour then they will have their Il-96 ready for the final upgrade to twin engine / composite wing and the industrial base ready for it, so it will not be any problem and they will be able to offer a new plane with 100% Russian production both for the domestic market, state customers and also airlines abroad.

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:42 am

    LMFS wrote:
    https://aviation21.ru/il-96-400m-budet-vypuskatsya-shtuchno-dlya-speczakazchika/

    I don't agree with the rationale of the author, but it is always good to have additional details of the project

    1. The Il-96-400M is not a stop-gap measure until the CR929, it is a risk reduction measure by the Russian industry to re-train the industrial base and the designers, it does not make sense to develop it for the two or three odd copies the Russian government can order, much less considering the lack of resources and predictable shift to the right of the project
    2. I don't think any serial production of this plane was thought, since it would be unprofitable for the companies involved and would need to have its operation heavily subsidized by the state
    3. The 737MAX example is flawed since they put bigger engines without changing the wing, such was the hack Boeing perpetrated, since their executives preferred to put more cash in their pockets than doing things properly
    4. I am not sure the new composite wing would mean such a complete redesign of the plane, the author does not provide authoritative sources in that regard

    For me this plane represents the typical progressive, low risk Russian approach of not being 100% dependent on partners of any kind. If relations with the Chinese sour then they will have their Il-96 ready for the final upgrade to twin engine / composite wing and the industrial base ready for it, so it will not be any problem and they will be able to offer a new plane with 100% Russian production both for the domestic market, state customers and also airlines abroad.

    An excellent decision all-around

    If the new engine won't be available until 2026, then by then the Il-96 design will simply be outdated.

    And yes working in software development, also a field of engineering, it's a common occurrence that even updating one library dependency can ripple down into having to make changes across the rest of the app, even with all the best design and measures taken to ensure isolation and modularity. For something like a wide-body airliner, that's going to be even more so. Change the engine, so you have to change the wing. Change the wing, and you'll have to modify the fuselage. And so on.
    It simply makes more sense by that point, in 2026 and with a new engine, to draw up a new aircraft altogether. But what's the point of that, if the CR929 will be available by then?

    Russia, if it needs to, can always elect to duplicate production of the CR929 on its own territory, and substitute components for its own technology. But with the existing high amount of Russian input and tech into the project, and the stable nature of relations with China, means that there is hardly any need to do so.
    The Chinese depend as much on Russian participation as Russia does on Chinese participation, even with the fact that the aircraft will be manufactured in China. Better to be economically-minded about this, streamline the costs and production process as much as possible, and achieve mass-production and an economy of scale. Else the aircraft will never become a Boeing and Airbus competitor that would make sense for Russian airlines to procure in the first place.

    The Il-96-400M is a special modification that's required by the Presidential service and some other agencies. Plans for serial production of it can always be held as a reserve option. But otherwise all this talk about a 2-engined Il-96 and so on sounds like nothing more than an attempt to get leverage with China on the CR929.
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    Post  Backman Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:15 am

    Is the US going to allow sales of its engines for the CR929 program ? I doubt it but you never know. The program is designed to eat the 787's market.

    If not , then Russia has China by the balls for the engines of the 929. And yes. Russia should be able to produce it's own copy as well. It's learning the ropes on carbon fiber now. China bought one of the top aviation mfg tooling companies in the west. Maybe russia can build an aluminum version and use the same carbon fiber wing.
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:15 am

    Backman wrote:Is the US going to allow sales of its engines for the CR929 program ? I doubt it but you never know. The program is designed to eat the 787's market.

    If not , then Russia has China by the balls for the engines of the 929. And yes. Russia should be able to produce it's own copy as well. It's learning the ropes on carbon fiber now. China bought one of the top aviation mfg tooling companies in the west. Maybe russia can build an aluminum version and use the same carbon fiber wing.

    Thing is, it really doesn't need to

    Russia's internal market is not large enough to justify setting up its own production, when production next door in China will do just as well

    The priority should be to concentrate orders there, through mass-production lower the cost, and then conquer world markets. If hundreds of planes can be produced, that's hundreds of orders for Russian engines and components, and big profits for the JV which Russia is part of too. Russian airliners meanwhile will get access to a competitively priced airliner to purchase.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:44 am

    flamming_python wrote:If the new engine won't be available until 2026, then by then the Il-96 design will simply be outdated.

    A bold statement. The plane is already outdated, they are upgrading the avionics with the 400M and then you could change engines and wing. What is the big problem with the fuselage?

    And yes working in software development, also a field of engineering, it's a common occurrence that even updating one library dependency can ripple down into having to make changes across the rest of the app, even with all the best design and measures taken to ensure isolation and modularity. For something like a wide-body airliner, that's going to be even more so. Change the engine, so you have to change the wing. Change the wing, and you'll have to modify the fuselage. And so on.

    To say aerospace engineering works like SW is also bold

    Russia, if it needs to, can always elect to duplicate production of the CR929 on its own territory,

    As far as I know, that is not how the program is set up. I am sure Russians are fighting for their rights, but the way Chinese are defending their own interests tells me they see themselves as the senior partner in the project, going long term. Which makes sense, since they will be (by far) the bigger market for the plane. Chinese are not a NGO, they go for the money and for the seniority, why would they keep draining money to Russia and making the plane more expensive with the long range transport of parts, once they have mastered the technologies they are after, namely high thrust engines and production of composite wings? They are no idiots, neither are the Russians, that is why they have not abandoned the Il-96. That B plan being in place, the Chinese will have more incentive to compromise. The current unity of purpose (to defeat the Western influence) gets them in line at a strategic level, once that threat is not present anymore, the leadership of both countries may not see it necessary to interfere in the market interests of their companies for the sake of common understanding at a higher level.

    and substitute components for its own technology.

    I could ask why to do that, when they already have a Russian plane like the Il-96? Exchanging systems on a plane is not cheap or fast, and in this case it would be also all the fuselage that would need to be produced in Russia, with the huge design, certification and production effort involved, even if allowed by the IP regulations of the contract. And it would improve essentially nothing or very little, just result in a knockoff that could only be used internally but probably not sold abroad if infringing on the contract, while designing a composite wing for the Il-96 would massively raise the value of a fully legal Russian product that can be sold anywhere.

    Else the aircraft will never become a Boeing and Airbus competitor that would make sense for Russian airlines to procure in the first place.

    Of course they can, Western manufacturers are much more expensive and rely mainly in the privileges of their parent countries. Once those are eroded in the coming years, countries will be more inclined to buying other equipment and one of the main candidates then will be Russia, unless they outsource all their knowledge and industrial based to China.

    The Il-96-400M is a special modification that's required by the Presidential service and some other agencies.

    That is interesting, because why to enlarge the plane 10 m for the president, when they have the Il-96-300 and they are still producing it?

    Russia's internal market is not large enough to justify setting up its own production, when production next door in China will do just as well

    The same "reasonable" narratives we heard in the West from the people that destroyed our industry, the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions and nice words. To turn into one of many potential parts suppliers to China instead of building and selling your planes yourself makes no sense for the Russian industry. Production is planned in China, main market is China as well as most suppliers and not even the PD-35 is the single engine option, those are not strong cards for Russia in the program. IMHO they should deliver the parts to China and cash their ToT while it works, but have their own plane and industry ready for the moment China sees themselves capable of going solo.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:09 pm

    Russia cannot dipend on China for the production of their own aircrafts, and cannot abandon the production and assembly of widebodies.

    Furthermore 737NG the first modernisation with engines from the 80s and a320 neo work just fine. The problem is that the 737 (a project from the 1960s) had already exhausted its modernisation potential. Furthermore it had a low landing gear and not much clearance under the wings for the larger engines.

    The il96 is not in the same situation.

    It can be modernised as the A330 or the Boeing 777 are being modernised with modern engines

    The difference is that in this case since it will need a different number of engines it will probably need a new type rating.
    Thus, with a new wing, it will be practically a new aircraft evolved from the il96.

    If you ask if it is worth, due to the presence of the CR929 the answer is absolutely yes. It is also useful to compare the advantages of a full composite fuselage with a mixed aluminium and composite.

    Furthermore western companies also have more than one widebodies in production (e.g Boeing 777 and Boeing 787 and Airbus A330Neo and A350)

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:39 pm

    LMFS wrote:A bold statement. The plane is already outdated, they are upgrading the avionics with the 400M and then you could change engines and wing. What is the big problem with the fuselage?

    There is no problem with the fuselage. It's just an old design and all the more so would be by 2026. Compare it to its competitors - the A350, Boeing 787 and CR929

    To say aerospace engineering works like SW is also bold

    It's all engineering, many of the principles carry over

    As far as I know, that is not how the program is set up. I am sure Russians are fighting for their rights, but the way Chinese are defending their own interests tells me they see themselves as the senior partner in the project, going long term. Which makes sense, since they will be (by far) the bigger market for the plane.

    Precisely

    Airliners of this class are a privilege of very few manufacturers in the world. And aside from the US with its Boeing 787 (and even that one had Russian design input and titanium sections), no-one is going it alone. France-Germany with their Airbus A350, and China-Russia with their CR929. There's no shame in sharing.

    Chinese are not a NGO, they go for the money and for the seniority, why would they keep draining money to Russia and making the plane more expensive with the long range transport of parts, once they have mastered the technologies they are after, namely high thrust engines and production of composite wings?

    The same goes for Russia too. If the project is a JV, then the parties respective ownership and responsibilities will be defined and protected.

    They are no idiots, neither are the Russians, that is why they have not abandoned the Il-96. That B plan being in place, the Chinese will have more incentive to compromise. The current unity of purpose (to defeat the Western influence) gets them in line at a strategic level, once that threat is not present anymore, the leadership of both countries may not see it necessary to interfere in the market interests of their companies for the sake of common understanding at a higher level.

    That threat is going to be present for quite a while and it doesn't make sense to refuse such a project on the basis of maybe's.

    I could ask why to do that, when they already have a Russian plane like the Il-96? Exchanging systems on a plane is not cheap or fast, and in this case it would be also all the fuselage that would need to be produced in Russia, with the huge design, certification and production effort involved, even if allowed by the IP regulations of the contract. And it would improve essentially nothing or very little, just result in a knockoff that could only be used internally but probably not sold abroad if infringing on the contract, while designing a composite wing for the Il-96 would massively raise the value of a fully legal Russian product that can be sold anywhere.

    Could be that by taking part in this project, Russia will in the future be able to come up with something much better than the Il-96-400M, if it wants to

    But again, why go it alone. The biggest market is in China anyway, they know that, and have their own conditions. Has it occurred to you that Russian producers of engines, avionics, components, etc... are looking at this as a way to grab a huge slice of that market?

    Of course they can, Western manufacturers are much more expensive and rely mainly in the privileges of their parent countries. Once those are eroded in the coming years, countries will be more inclined to buying other equipment and one of the main candidates then will be Russia, unless they outsource all their knowledge and industrial based to China.

    If Russia had the capability to produce an ultra-modern design to rival Airbus's and Boeing's latest efforts, then it would have done so by now

    I mean yes in theory it could do it. In practice though the Superjet has suffered export challenges, the smaller MS-21 is not out yet.. what makes you so confident of Russia's success on the world market?
    The CR929 is not an assured win either, but at the very least it's China orders alone will be enough to turn a large profit. It's splitting the risks, it's a win-win for Russia.

    That is interesting, because why to enlarge the plane 10 m for the president, when they have the Il-96-300 and they are still producing it?

    Well whoever it is that needs it then

    I can tell you though that the commercial airlines don't need it though or its 4 engine configuration

    The same "reasonable" narratives we heard in the West from the people that destroyed our industry, the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions and nice words. To turn into one of many potential parts suppliers to China instead of building and selling your planes yourself makes no sense for the Russian industry. Production is planned in China, main market is China as well as most suppliers and not even the PD-35 is the single engine option, those are not strong cards for Russia in the program. IMHO they should deliver the parts to China and cash their ToT while it works, but have their own plane and industry ready for the moment China sees themselves capable of going solo.

    No it's just about making sense and not throwing billions away on dubious projects. Russia is now doubting the need for the Lider program. Good, it's not a priority either

    Does Russia need a capability to produce destroyers? Sure, but it's not a priority.

    As for large widebody airliners, Russia is having trouble with smaller classes still, and I don't see this deal as giving away Russia's capability. What, Russia looses the ability to wield a fuselage? This particular aircraft class is just going to be produced in China, that's all. Maybe future ones will be too. The engines, probably some wing sections and other key systems are still going to be Russian-made though, it would still yield a ton of experience for everyone involved.

    China may eventually decide to go it alone. I get the sense that they are interested in splitting the risks too and getting a 2nd perspective on board from somebody who has actually produced this class of civil aircraft before.
    But let's say they do decide to go it alone. By participating, Russia will still emerge from this project stronger and more experienced then they were before.
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    Post  George1 Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:30 pm

    Manufacturing of the first prototype of the light aircraft LMS-901

    Photos of the production of the first prototype of the light multifunctional aircraft LMS-901 ("Baikal") at the production of the Moscow Aviation Institute (MAI) in Moscow have been published on social networks.

    Recall that in 2019, following the results of the competition, Baikal Engineering LLC, a subsidiary of Ural Civil Aviation Plant JSC (UZGA, Yekaterinburg), received a contract from the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia for the development of a light single-engine turboprop multifunctional aircraft for nine passengers LMS- 901 (code "Baikal").

    According to the terms of the contract, the developer was to transfer the first prototype of the LMS-901 (Baikal) aircraft to static tests by the end of 2020, which should take place at MAI, and at the end of 2021 to begin flight tests of the first prototype. The production of the first prototype of the aircraft for static tests is being actively carried out at the MAI production, although the deadlines were obviously not met. It was reported that in the future, UZGA plans to retrofit this first prototype under construction at MAI into a flight model for flight tests, as well as produce two more prototypes (one for flight and one for static tests).

    Prototypes LMS-901 should be equipped with a General Electric H80-200 turboprop engine (a modernized version of the Czech Walter M601 engine). Serial samples of the aircraft are supposed to be equipped with the promising Russian VK-800S turboprop engine. In accordance with the terms of reference, the cost of the LMS-901 serial sample should not exceed 120 million rubles in 2020 prices, and the cost of a flight hour excluding leasing is 40 thousand rubles.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 10 88642910

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4295195.html

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    Post  Backman Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:36 pm

    @LMFS @Flaming python

    It all depends on if the CR929 will be able to get Western engines. If not , China will have no choice but to share the CR929 as Russia sees fit. China has made acquisitions in the aircraft mfg space but not the engine space. They even lost out on Motor Sich.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:14 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Compare it to its competitors - the A350, Boeing 787 and CR929

    Yes, it is bigger and with a wider cabin, I see no big problem

    Has it occurred to you that Russian producers of engines, avionics, components, etc... are looking at this as a way to grab a huge slice of that market?

    Yes of course, that is essentially the only reason Russia would want to take part in the program.

    If Russia had the capability to produce an ultra-modern design to rival Airbus's and Boeing's latest efforts, then it would have done so by now

    Precisely they are bothering with the 400M so that they can get develop those capacities again. Ten yeas ago they had to settle for the Superjet with a big share of foreign systems, now they are doing the MC-21 almost solo and in few years they could go for the widebodies, it makes lots of sense.

    The CR929 is not an assured win either, but at the very least it's China orders alone will be enough to turn a large profit. It's splitting the risks, it's a win-win for Russia.

    I agree a new plane would be too expensive, but the Il-96 is already there adn the CR929 is an enabler as they will develop the engines for that project. The potential twin engine Il-96 would come as a by-product at a very reduced price compared with doing plane and engine from scratch, it is not a silly idea I think.

    Well whoever it is that needs it then

    That is still a relevant question, because that is a fuselage size for lots of passengers rather than reduced government teams.

    The engines, probably some wing sections and other key systems are still going to be Russian-made though, it would still yield a ton of experience for everyone involved.

    As said the engine is just one option, no obligation from what I know for CRAIC to order them. Depending on the cost sharing agreements, Russia may develop the engine and pay a major part of it, acting as an insurance for the whole program since US would not be anymore able to effectively harm it by sanctions, and then China may decide not to use it because some customer prefer a Western manufacturer, having developed an engine of their own or whatever other reason. So the share of Russia in the project in the future is not that clear, that is why I think we are hearing rumours of disputes inside CRAIC.
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    Post  Scorpius Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:44 pm


    IL-96 cannot be produced in an amount of more than 3-5 units per year in the current state of the plant in Voronezh.

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