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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:39 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Backman wrote:^What do you mean, not allowed ?
    It might have some sales success but it in no way forms part of the strategic plans for Ilyushin.

    Either Ilyushin had excess staff in R&D, testing, manufacturing, marketing etc that this project created work for or it took staff and resources away from those areas that could have been better used on its mainstream products.

    If Russia wants to be seen as a real competitor to Airbus or Boeing, its competing companies need to look like them. That the Il-103 has been relocated is perhaps a recognition of that.
    I do not understand your point, the aircraft has already been developed, and its production never affected ilyushin main plants in Voronezh and Ulyanovsk,  as it was produced at Lukhovitsy Machine-Building Plant, near Moscow.

    Now there is no engineering development work needed for it, so it is not impacting other more important programs.


    They could even consider  producing it also at Urals Civil Aviation Works (UZGA) in Yekaterinburg, where they assemble also the small austrian twin engine trainer Da42.
    Or in Samara, at Aviakor, that used to produce large aircrafts,  but is now without orders.

    It is good to have found a foreign country interested in producing it, but the aircrafts destined for Russia should be assembled at a Russian plant.

    As said, the only issue for those is the lack of small domestic aircraft piston engines (150 to 250 hp)

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:11 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Backman wrote:^What do you mean, not allowed ?
    It might have some sales success but it in no way forms part of the strategic plans for Ilyushin.

    Either Ilyushin had excess staff in R&D, testing, manufacturing, marketing etc that this project created work for or it took staff and resources away from those areas that could have been better used on its mainstream products.

    If Russia wants to be seen as a real competitor to Airbus or Boeing, its competing companies need to look like them. That the Il-103 has been relocated is perhaps a recognition of that.
    I do not understand your point, the aircraft has already been developed, and its production never affected ilyushin main plants in Voronezh and Ulyanovsk,  as it was produced at Lukhovitsy Machine-Building Plant, near Moscow.

    Now there is no engineering development work needed for it, so it is not impacting other more important programs.
    My point was that it needed what were presumably scarce resources at the time of its development, not now and that there was an opportunity cost in doing so.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:33 pm

    There's no date on this article but it looks like Hungary is trying to start an aviation industry. Looks like a win win deal. A way for Russia to get its foot into the European space.

    https://tungsram.com/en/news/a-hungarian-aviation-icooperation-is-born#

    The only 100% state-owned company of the Hungarian aircraft maintenance market Aeroplex of Central Europe Ltd. and Hungarian innovation technology multinational group Tungsram signed a cooperation agreement.


    This cooperation opens a new door for Tungsram; its activity will no longer be confined to the repair of engine components but the company will also be involved in the supply chain of airport maintenance.

    As a new actor of the aviation industry the company is continuously expanding its portfolio and searching for new opportunities. 

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:03 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Backman wrote:^What do you mean, not allowed ?
    It might have some sales success but it in no way forms part of the strategic plans for Ilyushin.

    Either Ilyushin had excess staff in R&D, testing, manufacturing, marketing etc that this project created work for or it took staff and resources away from those areas that could have been better used on its mainstream products.

    If Russia wants to be seen as a real competitor to Airbus or Boeing, its competing companies need to look like them. That the Il-103 has been relocated is perhaps a recognition of that.
    I do not understand your point, the aircraft has already been developed, and its production never affected ilyushin main plants in Voronezh and Ulyanovsk,  as it was produced at Lukhovitsy Machine-Building Plant, near Moscow.

    Now there is no engineering development work needed for it, so it is not impacting other more important programs.
    My point was that it needed what were presumably scarce resources at the time of its development, not now and that there was an opportunity cost in doing so.
    well at that time the il96 was already finished, and the il106 was killed by the government.

    The Ilyushin bureau even continued work on the il114 without support from the government after 1993 and the work on the il112v only started (with many interruptions) after year 2000 (in the 90s there was a mention of a il112, but they referred to a shortened il114). So actually there was not much going around in terms of new projects (thanks to the government cancelling most of the promising aircrafts).

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:54 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The il-103 is a nice small aircraft and can be used as a trainer instead of foreign alternatives like Cessna 172, piper  or diamond da40.

    The only question is if it will be still powered by a foreign (American) powerplant.

    The ones flying now have a continental engine (the same as in the Cessna 172 and in the Piper Pa34 and a hartzell propeller.

    Powerplant: 1 × Teledyne Continental IO-360-ES2B 6-cyl. air-cooled horizontally-opposed piston engine, 157 kW (211 hp)
    Propellers: 2-bladed Hartzell BHC-C2YF-1BF/F8459A-8R


    It would be great if they build it with a v6 derivative of the RED diesel engine. That would be a really nice aeroplane.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:09 am

    TSAGI tested a model of a light convertible aircraft with new layout elements
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 9 F78e4cfbd58337d8240e3fbee5fbecd3
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    Specialists Of the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute named after Professor N.E. Zhukovsky (part of the N.E. Zhukovsky Institute) tested a model of a light convertible aircraft (LKS) with modified layout elements.

    The work was carried out in the wind tunnel t-102 TSAGI.

    At this stage of research, the staff of the center for aviation science determined the impact of new variants of landing gear fairings, vertical tail, fairing between the wing and fuselage, as well as engine nacelles on the aerodynamic characteristics of the model.

    The modified elements are aimed at reducing the drag of the aircraft in cruising flight mode, improving its flight quality and fuel efficiency. The new vertical tail is designed to improve the lateral handling of the aircraft by increasing the efficiency of the rudder at high deflection angles.

    The results of past tests showed that modifications to the model layout give the expected increase in aerodynamic characteristics. The research data are consistent with the estimates obtained in the calculations.

    At the next stage of experiments, which are scheduled for 2022, TSAGI specialists will continue to study the aerodynamic properties of the LCS modification, which has an external tank for cryogenic fuel.

    The planned research was preceded by the development of the LCS concept, performed by TSAGI scientists, and a series of experiments in aerodynamic installations. For example, research on the protection of LCS from icing. Several variants of the model's layout elements (fuselage, tail, wing, etc.) were also tested, including those with an external cryogenic fuel tank. As a result, the characteristics of the longitudinal and lateral stability of the model for take-off, landing and cruising modes were obtained, taking into account the blowing from working propellers.

    The light convertible aircraft can be used for both passenger and cargo transportation without changing the standard design. The aircraft will be able to carry 50 passengers for a distance of 1500 km or 6 tons of cargo for a distance of 1000 km. The cruising speed of the aircraft is 480 km/h.

    https://translate.yandex.com/translate?lang=ru-en&url=https%3A%2F%2Frg.ru%2Fsila%2F

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:40 am

    Just looking into the CRAIC CR929 again.

    High-speed wind tunnel testing was completed by December 2019 at the Moscow Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute, using a 1:39 scale model of the fuselage and wing. By July 2020, Irkut's chief disclosed that the first deliveries were delayed to 2028-2029, amid difficulties with Chinese partners cooperation.

    The ARJ 21 is their baby. Did anyone know that its actually a mash up of the MD 80/90 ? Which were produced under license in China. It makes sense now.

    wiki
    Resembling the McDonnell Douglas MD-80/MD-90 produced under license in China, it features a 25° swept, supercritical wing designed by Antonov and twin rear-mounted General Electric CF34 engines.

    So its an American fuselage, Ukrainian wing and American engines. Yeah. I'd say they will need Russia's help.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:35 pm

    Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov was presented with the second prototype of the IL-114-300 passenger aircraft.

    Think the top picture is the military straffing version, with ports for 11 machine guns in each wing Laughing Laughing

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 9 EyTl1DbXEAQ6OGa?format=jpg&name=small
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 9 EyTl1DbWEAoM4-c?format=jpg&name=small

    uacrussia.ru/ru/press-cente

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    Post  lancelot Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:05 am

    Backman wrote:Just looking into the CRAIC CR929 again.
    ...
    The ARJ 21 is their baby. Did anyone know that its actually a mash up of the MD 80/90 ? Which were produced under license in China. It makes sense now.

    wiki
    Resembling the McDonnell Douglas MD-80/MD-90 produced under license in China, it features a 25° swept, supercritical wing designed by Antonov and twin rear-mounted General Electric CF34 engines.

    So its an American fuselage, Ukrainian wing and American engines. Yeah. I'd say they will need Russia's help.

    The Chinese are essentially starting their civil aviation industry from zero.

    Using foreign expertise at this stage is not dumb. It is smart. Better than doing some Great Leap Forward backyard furnace stunt.
    The Soviets started their civil aviation industry by working with Junkers and licensing production of the Douglas DC-3 as the Li-2.
    We can blame the Chinese all we want about not using their own engines and I agree. They could have easily licensed production of engines from Lotarev back when the ARJ-21 was originally designed. That would have made this aircraft more sanctions proof. Of course the USA wouldn't license them any aviation engine technology. Even old tech like the GE CF34.
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 pm



    PJSC Irkut Corporation (part of the United Aircraft Corporation of the State Corporation Rostec) has successfully completed certification tests of the MS-21-300 airliner under natural icing conditions.

    07 April 2021
    Press release

    PJSC Irkut Corporation (part of the United Aircraft Corporation of the State Corporation Rostec) has successfully completed certification tests of the MS-21-300 airliner under natural icing conditions. The aircraft confirmed the estimated flight performance even with a layer of ice 8 cm thick. This fully complies with Russian and European aviation standards: according to the certification rules, the design characteristics must be maintained with a layer of ice 7.6 cm thick.

    The airliner made 14 test flights lasting from 3 to 5 hours over the coast of the White Sea, the Pechora Bay of the Barents Sea, south of Novaya Zemlya, as well as in the area of the Circumpolar Urals. Today, the plane returned from the Arkhangelsk airport to the Ramenskoye airfield in Zhukovsky.

    In the spring, under the influence of the White and Barents Seas, multi-layered clouds, frequent precipitation and frontal sections, conditions for the occurrence of aircraft icing are created in this region. The main danger of ice is the distortion of the carefully calculated shape of the wing and other surfaces of the aircraft, as a result of which its flight performance can significantly deteriorate.

    Test flights of the MS-21-300 aircraft from the Arkhangelsk airport took place in several stages. At the first stage, based on the data of the weather service, the crew searched for clouds, the icing in which corresponds to the conditions of the certification basis of the aircraft. During the flight in such clouds, the crew used special devices to control the formation of ice on the surfaces of the aircraft. When the required thickness of the ice was reached, the aircraft occupied the specified height, at which the behavior of the machine in the conditions of natural icing was checked. The thickness of the ice layer increased from flight to flight.

    In addition to the stability and controllability of the aircraft, the operation of the anti-icing systems of the MS-21-300 aircraft was checked. According to the current regulations, to improve safety during tests, the ability of the aircraft to continue flying with the de-icing system not working is confirmed. Also, in the conditions of icing, the operation of a number of aircraft systems, in particular, external lighting equipment, radio communication equipment and landing gear, was checked.

    The flights were carried out by the crew of PJSC Irkut Corporation consisting of test pilot Vasily Sevastyanov, test navigator Sergey Kudryashov, test engineers Nikolai Fonurin and Alexander Popov. Also, the crew included the pilot-certifier of the State Research Institute of Civil Aviation Nikolai Grigoriev.

    Representatives of authorized certification centers and the Aviation Register of the Russian Federation participated in the processing of materials received during the flights.

    The United Aircraft Corporation (PJSC UAC, part of the Rostec State Corporation) was established in 2006 to consolidate the assets of Russia's largest airlines. The enterprises belonging to the corporation produce aircraft of such world – famous brands as "Su", "MiG", "Il", "Tu", "Yak", "Beriev", as well as new ones-Superjet 100 and MS-21. OAK enterprises perform a full cycle of work from design to after-sales service and disposal of aircraft equipment. General Director of PJSC "UAC" - Vice-President of the NGO "Soyuzmash of Russia" Yuri Borisovich Slyusar.

    Rostec State Corporation is one of the largest industrial companies in Russia. It unites more than 800 scientific and industrial organizations in 60 regions of the country. Key areas of activity – aircraft construction, radio electronics, medical technologies, innovative materials, etc. The corporation's portfolio includes such well-known brands as AVTOVAZ, KAMAZ, UAC, Russian Helicopters, UEC, Uralvagonzavod, Shvabe, Kalashnikov Concern, etc. Rostec is actively involved in the implementation of all 12 national projects. The company is a key supplier of Smart City technologies, is engaged in the digitalization of public administration, industry, and social sectors, and develops plans for the development of 5G wireless communication technologies, the industrial Internet of Things, big data, and blockchain systems. Rostec is a partner of the world's leading manufacturers, such as Boeing, Airbus, Daimler, Pirelli, Renault, etc. The corporation's products are delivered to more than 100 countries around the world. Almost a third of the company's revenue is provided by the export of high-tech products.

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    Post  Backman Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:05 am

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 9 282658

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:10 am

    Unusual colour scheme for the front of the nacelles, making the engines look bigger than they are.
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    Post  Backman Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:08 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Unusual colour scheme for the front of the nacelles, making the engines look bigger than they are.

    Yeah the engines just look different in this shot. The inside is black so you can see daylight through them.
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    Post  Hole Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:44 pm

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 9 040210
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 9 040310
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 9 040710

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    Post  George1 Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:57 pm

    Ansat and Mi-17-1V helicopters delivered to Turkmenistan

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    Post  Kiko Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:23 pm

    What makes the new "board number 1" unique for the President of Russia
    11.4.2021

    The President of Russia will receive a new "board number 1" - at least, this directly follows from the tests that have begun on the Il-96-300PU airliner. Why is this particular airliner used as a government aircraft in Russia, what features does it have in terms of everyday life, communications and safety, and what do the PU letters in its name mean?

    Few can boast that they flew, they say, on the IL-96. Serial production of these long-range wide-body aircraft (since 1993 at the plant of the Voronezh Joint-Stock Aircraft Building Company) was limited - 25 aircraft. Six of them were produced for Aeroflot, which completed its operation in 2014, three more for Domodedovo Airlines, which were put on the hook back in 2008. The rest are for the needs of the Ilyushin Design Bureau and the Rossiya special flight unit serving the president and the government.

    Actually, only Vladimir Putin flies around the country and abroad (before the pandemic) on the Il-96-300PU (M). What is the reason for this, when the president completely trusts his airliner, and Russian airlines have abandoned an aircraft of this class?

    Ever since the creation of the IL-96 (based on the IL-86 liner), this passenger aircraft was considered the most promising domestic development. As a result, it became a kind of pinnacle of the domestic civil aircraft industry and could turn into a worthy competitor to Boeing and Airbus systems of the same class.

    During the tests, the Il-96 made a unique non-stop flight Moscow - Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky - Moscow, covering a distance of 14,800 kilometers in 18 hours and 9 minutes. The liner was successfully operated on foreign flights - it flew to Singapore, New York, Tokyo, Havana and a number of other cities. The Il-96, according to one of its first pilots, Sergei Knyshov, was worthy of a better lot - a Russian-made aircraft could provide the continuation of a whole series of domestic passenger liners.

    The Il-96 turned out to be too heavy for Russian airlines due to its high cost, it was more profitable to lease foreign airliners. And, of course, a significant drawback of the machine in comparison with foreign counterparts was the fact that the Il-96 uses four engines, and foreign ones - two. Accordingly, the domestic car has higher fuel consumption and operating costs.

    By the way, Aeroflot at one time undertook to purchase additional Il-96s in exchange for a reduction in duties on the import of foreign equipment, but the deal did not take place, although the duties were reduced. However, such a fate awaited the rest of the domestic airliners, which ultimately put the Russian aviation industry on the brink of survival.

    It turns out that the "luxury" of flying on airplanes is available only to the government? President Boris Yeltsin became the first "passenger No. 1" of the Il-96-300. Then Vladimir Putin moved to a similar one, for whom a new plane was built in Voronezh (first flight in 2003). Then several more similar machines were put into operation, including for President Medvedev. And now a new special board has been made, its first test flights have begun . It is not officially reported that this machine will be used by the president of the country, but the letters PU (control center) in its name leave no doubt about its real purpose.

    “There are a number of reasons why the Il-96 is now being used as a government aircraft,” Honored Pilot of the Russian Federation Vladimir Talanov explained to the VZGLYAD newspaper. - Firstly, it is indeed a very reliable and safe aircraft, which is confirmed by the long-term operation of this aircraft. Plus, this is an element of prestige for the head of state - the leader of not every country can afford to fly on "his" plane, made by the forces of his own state.

    Secondly, the very concept of "board number 1" is not just one aircraft, because, in addition to the advanced aircraft, there is always a reserve aircraft: with guards, assistants, and journalists. And if some breakdown occurs or a malfunction occurs, especially at a foreign airport, the president will switch to a spare liner - and there will be no hesitation or embarrassment. After all, abroad there is no proper base of spare parts for prompt repair. They will find it quickly for a Boeing or a watermelon; for Russian airliners, which you practically cannot see on international flights now, this can become a big problem related to the delivery of spare parts.

    The presidential Il-96-300 with a reserve aircraft provides a kind of double security guarantee".

    So the current Il-96-300PU (control center), which has now made its first flight in Voronezh, will go straight to the special flight unit "Russia" upon commissioning, as evidenced by the corresponding inscription on its fuselage. VASO Managing Director Farit Sharafeev does not focus on who will be the operator of the new aircraft. He only notes: “The IL-96 program traditionally provides the main load of the plant. About 70 percent of the company's employees are employed on this project. We have accumulated colossal experience in the production of such machines. Today we are consistently provided with orders under the IL-96 program. " And if you look at the schedule for the release of these aircraft from 2011, then in 10 years they were produced six units - exactly for the needs of the government squadron.

    The current new aircraft was produced in the modification of the Il-96-300, and not the Il-96-400, which is considered as a passenger aircraft with a larger capacity. It is 10 meters longer, and the number 400 is the number of passenger seats in the cabin. The launch of production of "four hundred" in VASO was discussed in 2016, and in 2018, and in 2019. It seems that the assembly of the airframe elements of the first Il-96-400M airliner has even begun, but at the exit again there was a presidential "three hundred" aircraft.

    By the way, the Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu flies on the Il-96-400VPU (military command post) with registration number RA-96102. For him, in 2016, it was converted into a "special board" from a cargo Il-96T (transport).

    It should be understood that the Il-96-300PU aircraft is a means of air travel for the head of a nuclear power. And the chief leader must be aware of all events related to the security of the country, and be able to make a decision at any time in accordance with the situation - up to pressing the nuclear "red button". Detailed information about the stuffing of this aircraft is one of the most important state secrets. It is clear that the head of state has at his fingertips all the necessary means of communication - satellite and other special communication channels, which make it possible to transmit messages encrypted with a special code from any height to anywhere in the world.

    With a high degree of probability, it can be assumed that "board number 1" is also equipped with the "President-S" complex, which is designed for individual protection of the aircraft from being hit by aviation and anti-aircraft missile systems. This complex detects missile launches and activates the use of passive and active interference in infrared and radio bands, as a result of which the operation of missile homing systems is disrupted and their retargeting is carried out.

    More is known about the other stuffing of the "presidential board" - household. In particular, the liner has a mini-gym, rest rooms, a canteen, a bar, showers and a medical unit for resuscitation and emergency medical care.

    The best jewelers from Zlatoust worked on the interior decoration of the current “Putin's plane” Il-96-300PU, built on special order in Voronezh, the salon was decorated with engravings on historical themes, embroidered by masters of the Pavlovo-Posad silk factory, etc. After all, the president's plane, which here he also received very important foreign persons - the stamp of the state must be kept, and even the liner, which is called the "flying Kremlin", must correspond to the level. All this, by the way, determines its cost - many billions of rubles.

    The long-haul Il-96 is still the pinnacle of the domestic civil aviation industry, which now, for a variety of reasons, relies on much smaller aircraft. In particular, at the same VASO, the Il-114-300 turboprop intended for local airlines is being tested, and the Il-112V light military transport, which also made only its second test flight. Sukhoi Superjet 100 continues to be serially built, of which 207 units have been produced at the aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur since 2011.

    And, of course, the main hope of the Russian aircraft industry is the medium-range MS-21, which is actively being tested. Perhaps he, too, will one day take the place of "board number one".

    Text: Victor Sokirko

    https://m.vz.ru/society/2021/4/11/1093986.html

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:36 pm

    Put 2 engines on it. Then it can be the IL-96 Neo. The A330 and 737 are still based on 60's and 90's designs. Why cant the IL be ?

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    Post  lancelot Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:18 pm

    Backman wrote:Put 2 engines on it. Then it can be the IL-96 Neo. The A330 and 737 are still based on 60's and 90's designs. Why cant the IL be ?

    That would require the PD-35 to be available and you would need to redesign the wing.
    It might happen but with the CR929 being in design right now it might not make a lot of sense.
    The CR929 will be superior in every way to it.

    I thought Cubana used this aircraft? The quoted article does not mention this.

    Also what is it with Russian commercial aircraft of this era needing 3 crew members? I am sure this factored into the limited sales of this aircraft.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:40 pm

    A twin engine does not have the redundancy. As the article points out, spares are an issue for this plane. If they have an engine problem on a 4 engine plane, they can still ferry it home on 3 engines. No way with a twin. Also, if you just go with a twin engine, then you are about equal to the old A330 , not the NEO and certainly not the A350 and 787 .
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    Post  Backman Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:13 am

    lancelot wrote:
    Backman wrote:Put 2 engines on it. Then it can be the IL-96 Neo. The A330 and 737 are still based on 60's and 90's designs. Why cant the IL be ?

    That would require the PD-35 to be available and you would need to redesign the wing.
    It might happen but with the CR929 being in design right now it might not make a lot of sense.
    The CR929 will be superior in every way to it.

    I thought Cubana used this aircraft? The quoted article does not mention this.

    Also what is it with Russian commercial aircraft of this era needing 3 crew members? I am sure this factored into the limited sales of this aircraft.

    So the whole wing needs a redo and not just the nacelles ?

    It might happen but with the CR929 being in design right now it might not make a lot of sense.
    The CR929 will be superior in every way to it.
    I agree. Time as sorta passed it by. But why are they building this updated version right now ? Let it die or give it 2 engines. But they aren't doing either. The CR929 has promise but it could go either way. Its not a smooth running program as of now. I am unsure why they went full composite for it. Some in the industry say that full composite didn't have the
    weight savings that they expected in the end. Just a carbon wing is the ticket. Like the MC-21.

    I thought Cubana used this aircraft? The quoted article does not mention this.
    Cubana operates 4 and has 3 on order.

    Also what is it with Russian commercial aircraft of this era needing 3 crew members?

    The basic Il-96-300 is equipped with modern Russian avionics integrating six multi-function colour LCD displays, inertial and satellite navigation systems, and a Traffic Collision Avoidance System (including mode "S"). It allows the airplane to be operated with two crew members. The avionics correspond to modern requirements on international routes in Europe and North America (RNP-1) and allow navigation and landing under ICAO CAT III/A conditions.


    Last edited by Backman on Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:16 am

    mnztr wrote:A twin engine does not have the redundancy. As the article points out, spares are an issue for this plane. If they have an engine problem on a 4 engine plane, they can still ferry it home on 3 engines. No way with a twin. Also, if you just go with a twin engine, then you are about equal to the old A330 , not the NEO and certainly not the A350 and 787 .

    So Boeing and Airbus can keep reheating the 737 and A320 time after time as they please, but for Russia modernizing the Il-96 is not acceptable, says who? Any advance of those newer planes is mainly not in the fuselage, once the engines were replaced with 2x PD-35 and a new composite wing was created, what do you think the advantage of a 787 would be? Specially if it costs a lot more than the Russian plane...

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    Post  kvs Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:31 am

    A new composite wing is worth the investment. It is not an excuse to trash the whole model. Two PD-35s with composite wings
    is the ideal upgrade for the IL-96.

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    Post  Backman Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:32 am

    Here is some notes on whether a composite fuselage is worth it. What they did with the MS-21 is probably the best of both worlds and they should have done the same on the CR929 instead of going full composite.

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311916.2017.1285483

    Lightweight but expensive new materials, such as carbon fiber reinforced plastics (CFRPs), are widely applied for the newest fuel-save jet liners such as Boeing B787 and Airbus A350. However, under the low fuel price condition after the middle of 2014, steady sales are reported for lower-priced, older, and less efficient legacy aluminum liners. Therefore, the authors have set a question if selecting new materials contributed the business pay-off, and have proposed a new monetary trade-off method combining the fuel price, aircraft range, material strength, and material cost, for the decision-making of civil aircraft materials.

    The prices of crude oil and jet fuel peaked in 2008 and remained high until the middle of 2014 due to the monetary surpass and spreading of unrest across crude oil production areas. Engineers were thus motivated to develop an airliner that guarantees excellent fuel efficiency by changing airframe materials from legacy aluminum alloys, such as Al-2024 and Al-7075, to new lightweight but more expensive materials,

    However, the return of investment has come into question for some CFRP airframes since the prices of crude oil and jet fuel crashed in the middle of 2014 to approach the levels before 2005. Therefore, the success of investment in airframe business projects is dependent on timely decision-making through a complex trade-off between rising airframe cost when using these expensive materials and the reduction in fuel costs they permit.



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    Post  mnztr Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:32 am

    LMFS wrote:
    mnztr wrote:A twin engine does not have the redundancy. As the article points out, spares are an issue for this plane. If they have an engine problem on a 4 engine plane, they can still ferry it home on 3 engines. No way with a twin. Also, if you just go with a twin engine, then you are about equal to the old A330 , not the NEO and certainly not the A350 and 787 .

    So Boeing and Airbus can keep reheating the 737 and A320 time after time as they please, but for Russia modernizing the Il-96 is not acceptable, says who? Any advance of those newer planes is mainly not in the fuselage, once the engines were replaced with 2x PD-35 and a new composite wing was created, what do you think the advantage of a 787 would be? Specially if it costs a lot more than the Russian plane...

    Isn't that the CR929? If they can build it it should be a decent plane, but Russian engines lost about 20 years of development during the collapse of the USSR, not sure if they can catch up in a single leap. Russian composites are good and comparable, aerodynamics I would guage as superior metallurgy comparable, software superior (better quality but less quantity). Russia has a harsher operating environment so I am not sure if a plane that matches Western planes in efficiency may not be just too fragile to be suitable for Russia, that said a lot of western planes seem to be doing ok in Russia, but I am not sure if they are operated in the harshest conditions.
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    Post  mnztr Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:50 am

    re composite vs Aluminum. From what I see Aluminum is about $4/lb vs $10/lb for composites, but the weight savings is about 42$ so the actual cost for a structure is not that much more. It comes down to labour and then the savings from lower maint cost and less heat loss etc etc. I think compostite will continue to grow and get cheaper. Also since oil is a large part of their input cost, composites also get cheaper when oil gets cheaper. In smaller planes (single aisle) it is said the benefits of compsites for the wing as compared to AlLi alloys is questionable.

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