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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:48 pm

    ^ Thanks for clearing that up. So there's no magic with the Pratt & Whitney engine that makes it better than the PD14 just because the diameter is bigger. Seems like an overly simple whinge to claim otherwise. dunno
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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Try running a commercial engine at 3600F...


    3150F with 20,000 cycles on wing is just as extreme, maybe more IMHO.


    Who says PD-14 is worse in that regard?


    They don't talk much about it or key engine specs.


    From what we know the MC-21 is world class product, an airliner is a more complex thing than the bypass ratio of the engines. Technically the plane is in conditions to compete, but we know there are many more factors that play a more important role. The duopoly is not going to be broken in a few years.

    Most gains in aviation are driven by engine tech. Look at how close the A330 NEO gets to the 787 with advanced engines.


    That was the best the Russian industry could do back then, now things have improved.

    I hope so


    Do you have a source for that figure? In any case, the initial deployment will be done in a controlled way in Russia, while the service structure is grown and optimized. It has been said many times already that they will not repeat the failures of the Superjet program of going abroad before having all factors under control at home.

    I hope so again, that is in the wiki I think. Even 99% is considered sub par today.
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    Post  Backman Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:29 am

    I hope so again, that is in the wiki I think. Even 99% is considered sub par today.

    These new high efficiency engines - pretty much all brands- have been finicky to say the very least. So we'll see how Russia's does.

    Troublesome advanced engines for Boeing, Airbus jets have disrupted airlines and shaken travelers
    Originally published June 15, 2018

    A slew of technical problems with the three latest-technology jet engines is widely disrupting operations at airlines, bleeding cash from the engine makers and grounding significant numbers of Airbus and Boeing jets.

    Full article - https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/troublesome-advanced-engines-for-boeing-and-airbus-jets-disrupt-airlines-and-production-lines/

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    Post  mnztr Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:50 am

    For sure they have had some teething problems. The RR engines on the 787 have been the worst. I think the P&W GTF issues are largely dealt with, as the engine is really not that highly stressed due to the concept. The GE LEAP has some issues with the CMC coatings for ultra high combustion temps and reduced cooling airflow. RR engines were some odd blade oxidation issue. The P&W also had some wierd engine blade harmonics that were fixed with software. All engines are pretty bleeding edge and you are unlikely to catch everything in testing.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:45 am

    The Russians could develop an engine that sucks in raw sewerage and blows unicorns out the back and many western airlines wouldn't touch it.

    Countries that do buy Russian military jets don't buy Russian airliners but what size planes do they need... Russia really does not cover the market at the moment in terms of brand new designs in different size weight and range classes.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:51 pm

    mnztr wrote:3150F with 20,000 cycles on wing is just as extreme, maybe more IMHO.

    Which brings us back to my original statement, that reliability and not performance is the key requirement for commercial aviation. So an engine that uses a tiny bit more fuel (difference in BPR does not even remotely translate directly into SFC) but with an airframe that is more efficient like the MC-21 and with smaller procurement costs can be 100% competitive.

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    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:16 pm

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 8 280921

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    Post  mnztr Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:19 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    mnztr wrote:3150F with 20,000 cycles on wing is just as extreme, maybe more IMHO.

    Which brings us back to my original statement, that reliability and not performance is the key requirement for commercial aviation. So an engine that uses a tiny bit more fuel (difference in BPR does not even remotely translate directly into SFC) but with an airframe that is more efficient like the MC-21 and with smaller procurement costs can be 100% competitive.

    It really depends on the efficiency margin, I doubt any airline would take the risk for a small savings. In some cases like the A330 they may buy it as it is cheaper and if they are an airbus airline they save training $$ but the margins are thin and any misstep results in huge losses. If Russia were to sell MC-21 to Arab airlines in return for a manufacturing hub, with the ME3 being so well located and oil prices so cheap, they may be able to make it happen.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:20 pm

    PhSt wrote:Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 8 280921

    Its a pretty plane, I will say that Russian wing technology is probably the best in the world.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Russians could develop an engine that sucks in raw sewerage and blows unicorns out the back and many western airlines wouldn't touch it.

    Countries that do buy Russian military jets don't buy Russian airliners but what size planes do they need... Russia really does not cover the market at the moment in terms of brand new designs in different size weight and range classes.

    The Superjet was a very useful size, the MC21 even more so. I think if they turn the CR929 into an ME3 specialist machine for Emirates, Qatar and Etihad it could pay dividends. Unfortunately the CEO of Emirates is British Sad

    Another option is to turn Sochi into an aviation hub and replicate what the ME3 are doing with a fully optimized CR929 and undercut everyone with subsidized planes and fuel.
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    Post  Backman Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:26 am

    Looking back at the Airbus story, it was a shaky quasi government conglomeration at the start. They started off with the A300.

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    Post  mnztr Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:40 am

    It would be better if Russia tried something like the Frigate Ecojet then the CR929 which is a me too 787/A330
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    Post  Backman Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:58 am

    mnztr wrote:It would be better if Russia tried something like the Frigate Ecojet then the CR929 which is a me too 787/A330

    Isn't the Frigate Ecojet a "me too" of the Aurora D8 ? It says on the Wiki page that the program is being incorporated outside of Russia as well. TBH Im not a fan of these new slow fat airliner concepts coming out. Anything that is a reduction in speed, is moving backwards. Time is money. Efficiency that requires you to go slower doesn't count.

    The MC-21 is designed to be fastest in its class.

    Russia should have had a supersonic business/airliner program 15 years ago. It would have been a good niche for Russia.
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    Post  mnztr Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:34 am

    I don't believe its slower then other airliners. But the real truth is that most commercial operators actually fly the planes slower to save fuel and to allow them some buffer in the schedule.
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    Post  Backman Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:44 am

    mnztr wrote:I don't believe its slower then other airliners. But the real truth is that most commercial operators actually fly the planes slower to save fuel and to allow them some buffer in the schedule.

    All of these extra wide prototypes are slower than the average speed today.

    The real truth also is that people pay extra to get there faster. Which is why ppl pay for direct flights. It's not as simple as going slow to save fuel. If you go too slow , you sell less tickets.
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:15 am

    Backman wrote:
    mnztr wrote:I don't believe its slower then other airliners. But the real truth is that most commercial operators actually fly the planes slower to save fuel and to allow them some buffer in the schedule.

    All of these extra wide prototypes are slower than the average speed today.

    The real truth also is that people pay extra to get there faster. Which is why ppl pay for direct flights. It's not as simple as going slow to save fuel. If you go too slow , you sell less tickets.
    I think that you would find that for most no business passengers ticket price is top. The actual time in flight is only an element of the journey, reducing at that.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:44 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    Backman wrote:
    mnztr wrote:I don't believe its slower then other airliners. But the real truth is that most commercial operators actually fly the planes slower to save fuel and to allow them some buffer in the schedule.

    All of these extra wide prototypes are slower than the average speed today.

    The real truth also is that people pay extra to get there faster. Which is why ppl pay for direct flights. It's not as simple as going slow to save fuel. If you go too slow , you sell less tickets.
    I think that you would find that for most no business passengers ticket price is top. The actual time in flight is only an element of the journey, reducing at that.

    It really depends on how long we are talking about. I pay for fewer connections and shorter layovers, but I am not gonna care if one flight is 20 min longer and its $100 less.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:49 am

    Backman wrote:

    All of these extra wide prototypes are slower than the average speed today.

    The real truth also is that people pay extra to get there faster. Which is why ppl pay for direct flights. It's not as simple as going slow to save fuel. If you go too slow , you sell less tickets.
    other jet liners 0.8-0.83 M
    Its wider but less tall, all that matters is total cross section. It cruises the same speed as
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    Post  George1 Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:00 pm

    Agreement on the production of Il-103 aircraft in Hungary

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4276071.html

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    Post  mnztr Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:58 pm

    Nice, clever. Now the US can try and sanction an EU member and NATO ally lol.

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    Post  JohninMK Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:22 am

    George1 wrote:Agreement on the production of Il-103 aircraft in Hungary

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4276071.html

    Not quite what one might expect from the mighty Ilyushin Smile

    Bet it won't be allowed under the new structure, not a core product. Is that why its now in Hungary?

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    Post  Backman Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:06 am

    ^What do you mean, not allowed ?

    Operational history of IL-103

    Reviewers Dave Unwin and Marino Boric described the design in a 2015 review as "very robust, safe and comfortable. It was designed for everyday operation on poor runways and with the ability to cope with every variation of the harsh Russian climate."

    South Korea has 23 in service.

    Laos has 21 on order.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:54 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:Agreement on the production of Il-103 aircraft in Hungary

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4276071.html

    Not quite what one might expect from the mighty Ilyushin Smile...

    Hey, it flies and it sells

    Ergo, it's all good

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:32 am

    The il-103 is a nice small aircraft and can be used as a trainer instead of foreign alternatives like Cessna 172, piper or diamond da40.

    The only question is if it will be still powered by a foreign (American) powerplant.

    The ones flying now have a continental engine (the same as in the Cessna 172 and in the Piper Pa34 and a hartzell propeller.

    Powerplant: 1 × Teledyne Continental IO-360-ES2B 6-cyl. air-cooled horizontally-opposed piston engine, 157 kW (211 hp)
    Propellers: 2-bladed Hartzell BHC-C2YF-1BF/F8459A-8R

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    Post  JohninMK Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:20 pm

    Backman wrote:^What do you mean, not allowed ?
    It might have some sales success but it in no way forms part of the strategic plans for Ilyushin.

    Either Ilyushin had excess staff in R&D, testing, manufacturing, marketing etc that this project created work for or it took staff and resources away from those areas that could have been better used on its mainstream products.

    If Russia wants to be seen as a real competitor to Airbus or Boeing, its competing companies need to look like them. That the Il-103 has been relocated is perhaps a recognition of that.

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