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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

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    AlexDineley

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    Post  AlexDineley Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:21 am

    Ideally Russia should operate 4 carriers, 1 for each fleet.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:20 am

    AlexDineley wrote:Ideally Russia should operate 4 carriers, 1 for each fleet.

    Yeah, the Caspian sea would definitely need a carrier... Laughing

    Jokes apart. 4 carriers (2 for each of the large fleets (pacific and northern fleet)) would be the ideal number, but even three in total could be enough to ensure that an any given time one is always available for operations, while another could be used for training (maybe even the same kutznetov) and the last could be in maintenance.
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:10 am

    That's the chinese troll again with a new account. No need to answer.

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    Post  LMFS Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:17 pm

    Isos wrote:That's the chinese troll again with a new account. No need to answer.

    You mean the Chinese troll that was not Chinese? Laughing

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:21 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:That's the chinese troll again with a new account. No need to answer.

    You mean the Chinese troll that was not Chinese? Laughing

    OG 404

    Considering how long back he goes I dare to guess he might even be one of the folks from the pre-14 Butthurt Belt

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    Post  Backman Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:16 pm

    Isos wrote:Varan is too small. They put no weapons on it so no radar and FCS.

    Adding another 30m wouldn't be bad.


    It's too much compact. On the picture it's easy to draw 24 aircraft but in operation I doubt it could have more than 10 on the bridge. Not to mention that high intensity operations would be complicated by the recovery being impossible when plane takes off. Not only do the catapult precent that but they would also oblige sailors and plabes to move around the landing zone.

    IMO it's as good as the indian carrier, pretty bad. But the design looks good and the island is small and good looking. Some pantsir on the side should be added.

    Todays carriers are just for power projection and bombing failed states. It doesn't have to be tooled right up and ready for WW3.

    Peter the Great and some 22160 patrol ships can escort it.

    Charly015 realised an interesting detail on the Varan model:

    Canards. It has canards


    Last edited by Backman on Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  LMFS Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:45 pm

    Charly015 realised an interesting detail on the Varan model:

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 24 Caza%2Bdesconocido%2Bmonomotor

    https://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/10/rusia-desarrollara-un-avion-vtol.html?showComment=1614539144369#c994175715083318186
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:50 pm

    Shipbuilders don't have access to fighter project that are barely started.

    This VTOL is just an illustration made on a design software to show that the shop can carry such planes.

    Nothing interesting at all.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:01 pm

    LMFS wrote:Charly015 realised an interesting detail on the Varan model:

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 24 Caza%2Bdesconocido%2Bmonomotor

    https://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/10/rusia-desarrollara-un-avion-vtol.html?showComment=1614539144369#c994175715083318186

    It's a single engine version of Su-33 designed for Kuznetzov in the late 80s/early 90s

    Can't remember the name but it was excellent idea, two would fit in the place of one double engined plane both horizontally and vertically

    Prototype was built and ready for test flight but as everything else back then it went tits up when plug was pulled

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 24 ESMEg-XXkAAUmdn

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    Post  mnztr Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:04 am

    limb wrote:One consideration against a light carrier like the 45000ton Varan is the power needed to use the electromagnetic catapult. I dont know if power miniaturization and capacitor tech has gone far enough, and capacitors for it will take a lot of space, and on a small carrier space is at a premium. Also the larger the carrier is, the more powerful and rapid charging  the catapult so that would improve loadout capabilities and sortie rate.

    The power required for emals is not very much, at most 70 KWh per launch. They do not use electronic capacitors but flywheels to store the energy. It is much, much less energy then a steam catapult.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:28 am

    It's a single engine version of Su-33 designed for Kuznetzov in the late 80s/early 90s

    No, that was a trainer light fighter proposed by Sukhoi.... note the two seats...

    The fact that the model has planes with canards suggests it predates the Su-57s with more sophisticated control surfaces with the advantages of canards but without their problems.

    I remember seeing mockups and models of Soviet carriers in the early 1980s that had MiG-23s on them because at the time the model was made that is the standard fighter that was expected to be on it.

    This model perhaps came from the 1990s or early 2000s as the projected LMFS or what they thought it would look like... as mentioned... this carrier is a development of a ship design bureau... they will get models of potential future designs but no secret information that has not been proven and made part of the design yet.

    At best they will have dimensions and weights and basic performance figures which they will use to design their ships and deck lifts and hangars...

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    Post  limb Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:02 am

    is there any news if Russian EM catapults are ready?
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    Post  Backman Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:51 pm

    Many of the new Russian ship designs have this look. According to this video, it is a more efficient design. This favors the Varan concept. Which does look like one of the new nuclear ice breakers.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:51 pm

    MAPO MiG 412 project model: https://www.turbosquid.com/ru/3d-models/mig-412-fighter-3d-obj/398384

    ..Moscow desperately needs more smaller ships and especially icebreakers rather than any single large prestige vessel.
    Moscow’s Plans for New Kind of Aircraft Carrier Unlikely to Be Realized


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:33 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add links)
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    Post  lancelot Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:06 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Moscow’s Plans for New Kind of Aircraft Carrier Unlikely to Be Realized

    You have to laugh at these US military anal-ysts. So Russia does not have the money to build carriers, yet the UK has two? Give me a break.
    Just look at a map.

    I do think a carrier like Storm is way, way over spec for what a country like Russia needs, but I could easily see Russia having four carriers, two in the North, and another two in the East quite easily if they wanted to. I think two nuclear powered carriers is the bare minimum they will build.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:04 am

    Russia is already building significant numbers of ice breakers of all types, and the second link Jamestown institute... please...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:55 pm

    Sure they can revive the Buran with An-225 for it (1 is unfinished in Ukraine) too, but as with them, CV/Ns r not a priority before the last ship & sub r ready for their CBGs to be formed 1st.
    If Russia overspends on her VMF & breaks apart like the USSR 30 years ago, her CV/Ns will end up sold/scrapped like those Kiev/Kuz. class TAVKRs.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Backman Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:37 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:MAPO MiG 412 project model: https://www.turbosquid.com/ru/3d-models/mig-412-fighter-3d-obj/398384

    ..Moscow desperately needs more smaller ships and especially icebreakers rather than any single large prestige vessel.
    Moscow’s Plans for New Kind of Aircraft Carrier Unlikely to Be Realized

    From your link :
    "Russia does not have money even for one aircraft carrier” let alone a new fleet."

    This is pure unadulterated propaganda bullshit. Russia has more FX reserves (money) than India and yet India is operating one carrier and building a second. Yet you will NEVER hear these same propaganda rags pout about India "not having the money for even one aircraft carrier, let alone a whole fleet"

    Why ? Because most of these outfits are in the anti Russia bullshit business. And not the real geopolitical analysis business.

    Edit. There's also France with one carrier and the UK with 2. Both of which have less reserves than Russia does.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:38 pm

    She may have the $ for even 5 CVNs, but not with most of the other ships, subs & planes that must be built 1st.
    The gov. can't demand sacrifices from its people to catch & overtake the West as during Stalin & Khrushchev eras.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:09 am

    Sure they can revive the Buran with An-225 for it (1 is unfinished in Ukraine) too, but as with them,

    Those two are dead projects.

    There is no reason to revive either of them except conceptually... there will be a new Russian shuttle but will likely be rather different from Buran, though Buran was the best shuttle design so far from any country. The new shuttle design will benefit from an An-225 like aircraft but that will most likely be Slon based.

    CV/Ns r not a priority before the last ship & sub r ready for their CBGs to be formed 1st.

    A new CV or CVN will take a minimum of 10 years from laying down to being operational so they will not be waiting for the last ship it will operate with is built first.

    They need a lot more experience with new weapons and sensors and aircraft and systems before it is time to start looking at a new CVN design.

    If Russia overspends on her VMF & breaks apart like the USSR 30 years ago, her CV/Ns will end up sold/scrapped like those Kiev/Kuz. class TAVKRs.

    The Russian military budget will never become big enough to break Russia... a conventional military is useful but it is nukes that keep her safe and they are relatively cheap. certainly very cost effective.

    This is pure unadulterated propaganda bullshit. Russia has more FX reserves (money) than India and yet India is operating one carrier and building a second. Yet you will NEVER hear these same propaganda rags pout about India "not having the money for even one aircraft carrier, let alone a whole fleet"

    More importantly the US is getting buddy buddy with India to play them off against China, so obviously they are going to way India to buy lots of their old cast off ships to "boost" them to the point where they think they can match China... so we are talking about getting India to buy trillions of dollars of old carriers and ships and aircraft and helicopters from the US...

    I would call it grooming really, but India is a country and not a child... can't tell them what to do... but they should look at what the US did for Pakistan against India and they were best buddy allies, but now economics say 1.2 billion Indians buying jeans and fast food... of course they are going to switch sides... they do that all the time.

    She may have the $ for even 5 CVNs, but not with most of the other ships, subs & planes that must be built 1st.
    The gov. can't demand sacrifices from its people to catch & overtake the West as during Stalin & Khrushchev eras.

    The Russian military are working well within their budgets and their budgets are not even nearly damaging the Russian economy, in fact production is probably rather good for the Russian economy as a whole.

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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:UK operated the exocet. They had all the information they needed.

    French engineers that were there to maintain french stuff on the other hand helped Argentina to adapt its ship launched exocet on super etandard.

    It is known that the French threw Argentina under the bus with the Exocet. I guess they were not interested in a wave of UK-sponsored decolonization efforts on their overseas territories...

    Still doesn't change the fact that Argentina was just a couple of faulty bombs away from magnificent victory

    And that biggest kill of the war was scored by a UK submarine

    Coastal aviation and submarines, magical combo



    A couple of properly fused bombs and better maintained torpedos and it would have been carnage for the British.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:UK operated the exocet. They had all the information they needed.

    French engineers that were there to maintain french stuff on the other hand helped Argentina to adapt its ship launched exocet on super etandard.

    It is known that the French threw Argentina under the bus with the Exocet. I guess they were not interested in a wave of UK-sponsored decolonization efforts on their overseas territories...

    Still doesn't change the fact that Argentina was just a couple of faulty bombs away from magnificent victory

    And that biggest kill of the war was scored by a UK submarine

    Coastal aviation and submarines, magical combo



    A couple of properly fused bombs and better maintained torpedos and it would have been carnage for the British. So imagine if you can what Russias capabilities could do out to about 2000 km from the cost of Russia they have (not including nuclear) about 10000x the capabilties of Argentina at the time.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:43 pm

    The stillborn "Varan"

    He hit the nail on the head!
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    Post  Backman Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:21 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The stillborn "Varan"

    He hit the nail on the head!

    Just a garden verity carrier skeptic with a boring wise guy piece.

    Lost illusions

    All five Russian concept models have one thing in common: they will never be implemented. The design and construction of a full-fledged domestic aircraft carrier, even smaller than the Americans, will require much more financial resources.  

    This is just some defense pundit. There was an article in the economy section of a site like this which was saying that the Russian central bank was dumping its gold. When really, he was getting gold exports mixed up with CB sales. And this mistake managed to get past the editor.

    So I really don't know if a guy like this is qualified to make an assertion about the financial capabilities of Russia. Russia has more FX reserves than India. India is operating one aircraft carrier and building another. Russia has more gold reserves than China. China is operating 2 carriers and building 2 more. He should make an argument instead of just saying it. Saying it doesn't cut it. Make a real argument with economic data.

    Why has there been 5 carrier proposals if there is no way Russia is going to build a carrier ? He says this while Russia is currently cutting its teeth building 2 large helicopter carriers. Russia is in the top 5 in ship building tonnage. Its maybe higher. Plus they are building nuclear powered ships. The only other country doing that recently is Russia.

    There is no one in Russia to design such ships today. Specialized Nevsky PCB in the post-Soviet era rapidly collapsed. The staff ran away, retired, died of despair. There are few specialists who rebuilt "Admiral Gorshkov" in indian Vikramaditya. I had to resort to the help of the Nikolayev shipbuilders. But many years have passed since then.

    The same thing was said about all Russian industry since the 90's. Rockets and aviation specifically. Yet Russia is still in the rocket business and has the MC-21 coming along.

    Next year will be a hundred years since the first aircraft carrier Langley, converted from a coal transport engine, entered service in the United States. Since then, 77 aircraft carriers have been built for the U.S. Navy. And more than a hundred convoy, training and universal amphibious ships capable of carrying planes of shortened takeoff and vertical landing. Still, American designers with tremendous experience face difficulties.

    In this regard, it is impossible not to remember the American Gerald R. Ford. Its commissioning was delayed by three years, and the cost increased to 13.3 billion dollars.

    All US industry is suffering from F-35itus. This is irrelevant to Russia.

    Anyway , I think Putin wants an aircraft carrier. From what he has said , this has already been decided. The Varan is the most realistic option. I also disagree that it won't be nuclear powered. The Varan is basically an oversized helicopter carrier mixed with a nuclear ice breaker. If Russia can build those , it can build the Varan.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:52 pm

    Nothing we did not already know.

    And the usual can't afford it bullshit excuse.

    It seems hypersonic manouvering missiles will never be defeatable, except we know that with a bit of work of course they will be... even if it means a directed energy weapon that fries its guidance equipment and turns it into an unguided rock that will fly till it runs out of fuel and then falls to the sea...

    The sort of weapon that would be huge and require a lot of power to use... say on a cruiser... but then if such a cruiser is present then it will need ships to protect it from sneak attack like subs or low flying missiles so a big ship with a flat top that can carry anti sub helicopters and drones as well as an airborne radar aircraft that can see long distances low flying threats and of course some aircraft that can respond to those threats by flying out and checking them and attacking them if needed... hey... lets call my new invention an aircraft carrier.

    Long range and endurance dictate nuclear propulsion and decent flight group of fighters and anti sub helicopters and also drones and AWACS aircraft...

    so the best solution would probably be in the 70-90K ton weight class... perhaps a catamaran design with a huge wide hull for a big hangar and an even wider flight deck...

    Anyway , I think Putin wants an aircraft carrier. From what he has said , this has already been decided. The Varan is the most realistic option. I also disagree that it won't be nuclear powered. The Varan is basically an oversized helicopter carrier mixed with a nuclear ice breaker. If Russia can build those , it can build the Varan.

    Smaller carriers are cheaper... the UK and Soviet Union went down that road in the 1980s and it is stupid and a dead end. Spend a bit more and get a much better ship that is actually useful and effective.

    Put Su-57s on it. You can't have a lot so have the best.

    EM cats will help develop all sorts of new technology in super magnets and plasma and electrics etc etc... it is good for investment because it can be used in a wide variety of areas in aerospace.

    Don't think of a carrier as a burden to a Russian surface fleet, think of it as a force multiplier which makes it safer and more powerful and much much harder to defeat.

    Right now penetrating Russian air defences is hard, but if you took away all the airfields and airborne radar it doesn't really get that much cheaper but it becomes easier to defeat... and for what... by the time the west gets hypersonic anti ship missiles the Russian Navy will have S-350 and S-400 and S-500 missiles on their ships, and who knows what else EM and other systems to defend themselves.

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