Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7176
    Points : 7162
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  Isos Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:58 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:IMO, if the Argentines were better armed, a USN CBG/MEU &/ AF would get involved "to help liberate them from the junta that attacked our NATO & British ally & prevent Soviet influence from increasing there". After the war, access to bases in the S. Atlantic with rich fishing grounds & next to Antarctic Peninsula wouldn't hurt.

    Argentina was their ally back then. That's why soviets didn't help them and just watch the show of US allies fight each other.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27934
    Points : 28462
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:10 pm

    Reagan remained neutral and didn't lift a finger to help Maggie.

    If the Argentinians had F-4 Phantoms then there would be no interference either.

    "to help liberate them from the junta that attacked our NATO & British ally & prevent Soviet influence from increasing there".

    The US created most of the worst dictators and their juntas in the region then and today...

    American oil companies would be telling Ronny to stay out of it because that oil belongs to American oil companies... not British ones...
    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 372
    Points : 349
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  RTN Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:49 am

    Isos wrote:Argentina was their ally back then. That's why soviets didn't help them and just watch the show of US allies fight each other.
    France, did share the codes of the Exocet missile they sold to Argentina with the U.K.

    LMFS and TMA1 like this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7176
    Points : 7162
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  Isos Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:38 am

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:Argentina was their ally back then. That's why soviets didn't help them and just watch the show of US allies fight each other.
    France, did share the codes of the Exocet missile they sold to Argentina with the U.K.

    UK operated the exocet. They had all the information they needed.

    French engineers that were there to maintain french stuff on the other hand helped Argentina to adapt its ship launched exocet on super etandard.

    GarryB likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2984
    Points : 2986
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  LMFS Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:32 pm

    Isos wrote:UK operated the exocet. They had all the information they needed.

    French engineers that were there to maintain french stuff on the other hand helped Argentina to adapt its ship launched exocet on super etandard.

    It is known that the French threw Argentina under the bus with the Exocet. I guess they were not interested in a wave of UK-sponsored decolonization efforts on their overseas territories...
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10185
    Points : 10259
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  PapaDragon Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:56 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:UK operated the exocet. They had all the information they needed.

    French engineers that were there to maintain french stuff on the other hand helped Argentina to adapt its ship launched exocet on super etandard.

    It is known that the French threw Argentina under the bus with the Exocet. I guess they were not interested in a wave of UK-sponsored decolonization efforts on their overseas territories...

    Still doesn't change the fact that Argentina was just a couple of faulty bombs away from magnificent victory

    And that biggest kill of the war was scored by a UK submarine

    Coastal aviation and submarines, magical combo


    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7176
    Points : 7162
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  Isos Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:42 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:UK operated the exocet. They had all the information they needed.

    French engineers that were there to maintain french stuff on the other hand helped Argentina to adapt its ship launched exocet on super etandard.

    It is known that the French threw Argentina under the bus with the Exocet. I guess they were not interested in a wave of UK-sponsored decolonization efforts on their overseas territories...

    Your statement is the opposite of what happened.

    Exocet work better than expected and french engineers did everything for that.

    British were so afraid they tried to stop the sell of exocet to Peru so that they don't go to Argentina.

    Argentina lost because they had not enough of hardware and faulty german torpedos. If they had working torpedos and 20 more of everything (super etandard and exocet) they would have send all the british ships to the bottom.

    GarryB likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2984
    Points : 2986
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  LMFS Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:16 pm

    Nuclear "Manatee": the head of the USC spoke about the prospect of creating a new aircraft carrier in Russia

    The project involves equipping this powerful ship with a nuclear power plant.

    Alexey Rakhmanov, General Director of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, spoke about the technological advantages that the creation of a new aircraft carrier together with an air group can bring to Russia.

    Rakhmanov admitted that the USC design bureaus could not stay away from the project of such a large and powerful ship, despite the fact that it was created on a purely initiative basis.

    As a prospective aircraft carrier for the Russian Navy, "Nevsky PKB" prepared the "Manatee" project, which not only absorbed the developments and promising ideas of today, but also left in itself a large modernization reserve.

    “I am convinced that the implementation of the project to create an aircraft carrier (and its air group) can lead to a technological breakthrough, and for more than 10 years, in many segments of the economy and industry: in addition to shipbuilding, also in aircraft construction, mechanical engineering, nuclear technology, instrumentation, IT, production of weapons, metallurgy and metalworking ", - the head of USC told" Zvezda ".

    He added that the project involves equipping the Manatee with a nuclear power plant, as well as the ability to operate not only existing, but also promising aircraft. This will be done through the use of both a springboard and, in the future, an electromagnetic catapult.

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/2021291819-5ixAv.html
    avatar
    owais.usmani

    Posts : 490
    Points : 488
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 34

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  owais.usmani Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:36 am

    LMFS wrote:Nevskoe design bureau presented the project of the universal sea ship "Varan"

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 5946567

    It can carry 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 unmanned aerial vehicles.

    MOSCOW, January 18. / TASS /. The Nevsky Design Bureau (PKB, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has developed two new projects of universal ships, in particular the Varan universal sea ship (UMK) and a new universal landing ship (UDC). This is stated in the materials of the PKB dedicated to the 90th anniversary of the enterprise and available to TASS.

    UMK "Varan" is an aircraft-carrying complex, characterized by a high degree of automation and the possibility of using robotic systems. It can carry 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 unmanned aerial vehicles.

    The ship's displacement is about 45 thousand tons, length - about 250 m, width - 65 m, draft at the structural waterline - 9 m. "Varan" is capable of speeds up to 26 knots.

    The displacement of the promising UDC is about 30 thousand tons. The length of the ship reaches about 220 m, the width is 42 m, the draft along the constructive waterline is 7 m. The new UDC is capable of developing a speed of about 24 knots. There are seven helicopter landing pads on the deck of the ship.

    Nevskoe PKB is one of the largest domestic developers of universal ships and the only designer of aircraft carriers and training complexes in Russia. The company celebrates its 90th anniversary on 18 January.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10488643

    Nevskoe design bureau started working out the concept of floating airfields


    The bureau said that these platforms will become "a kind of centers for supporting the entire spectrum of activities of Russia and partner countries in the Arctic."

    MOSCOW, January 18. / TASS /. The Nevsky Design Bureau (PKB, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) develops floating airfields for aviation for various purposes. This is stated in the materials of the PKB dedicated to the 90th anniversary of the enterprise and available to TASS.

    "As part of the initiative work of the Nevsky Design Bureau, pre-design studies of the architectural and structural appearance of floating islands and airfields are being carried out," the materials say.

    As noted in the bureau, floating airfields can be used to support the actions of transport, rescue and military aviation in the Arctic, develop new gas fields in the northern seas, ensure the safety of navigation of the Northern Sea Route and perform the functions of the Ministry of Defense in the Arctic zone. "[These platforms] will become a kind of centers for supporting the entire spectrum of activities of Russia and partner countries in the Arctic," the booklet says.

    The PKB stressed that floating aerodromes ensure all-weather use of the runway in the Arctic, as well as countering the longitudinal and lateral rolling of the platform during takeoff and landing operations.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10488755

    Some more pics from Balancer forum:

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Umk_va10
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Umk_va11

    dino00, LMFS, lancelot and Backman like this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10185
    Points : 10259
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:55 am


    Looking good thumbsup
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2984
    Points : 2986
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  LMFS Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:33 pm

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 EuxJCEAXIAAoYle?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 EusAuOyXIAADELV?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10185
    Points : 10259
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:53 pm


    In Royal Navy it would have been called HMS Reasonable
    avatar
    11E

    Posts : 8
    Points : 10
    Join date : 2020-12-08

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  11E Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:Reagan remained neutral and didn't lift a finger to help Maggie.

    If the Argentinians had F-4 Phantoms then there would be no interference either.

    "to help liberate them from the junta that attacked our NATO & British ally & prevent Soviet influence from increasing there".

    The US created most of the worst dictators and their juntas in the region then and today...

    American oil companies would be telling Ronny to stay out of it because that oil belongs to American oil companies... not British ones...

    Not entirely neutral. The US did an ''emergency'' delivery of the newest AIM-9Ls. The Sea Harrier had the AIM-9G during that time.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/sep/06/falklands.world

    Regards
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27934
    Points : 28462
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:01 am

    Officially those Mike and Lima model Sidewinders were for HATO stocks which the UK misused.

    What pissed the Argentines most was there was an agreement in central and south america which effectively states that you be Americas bitch and America will protect you from any and all outside interference... including European colonial powers.

    Based on that agreement I think Argentina was probably expecting active US support but Ronnie loved Maggie which led a lot of countries in the region to realise there is a pecking order and America will only protect you against some threats and not others.
    marcellogo
    marcellogo

    Posts : 413
    Points : 419
    Join date : 2012-08-02

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  marcellogo Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:24 am

    LMFS wrote:Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 EuxJCEAXIAAoYle?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 EusAuOyXIAADELV?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

    May I dare say that some projects seems me to have their own numbers (Displacement, length, number of aeromobiles) assembled together quite casually.

    Also because an UAV, an helo, a MiG-29 and a Su-33 cannot be put together in same list.

    Look, my one is better, at half displacement host double number of planes!
    OKKAaay, I know, you are right, they are mainly An-2 but what matter? Have you something against biplanes?
    Backman
    Backman

    Posts : 356
    Points : 360
    Join date : 2020-11-11

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  Backman Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:37 pm

    The Varan looks like a converted ice breaker ship. Just the blunt front end and the placement of the bridge.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2984
    Points : 2986
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  LMFS Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:49 pm

    marcellogo wrote:May I dare say that some projects seems me to have their own numbers (Displacement, length, number of aeromobiles) assembled together quite casually.

    Also because an UAV, an helo, a MiG-29 and a Su-33 cannot be put together in same list.

    Look, my one is better, at half displacement host double number of planes!
    OKKAaay, I know, you are right, they are mainly An-2 but what matter? Have you something against biplanes?

    Yeah it is not easy to judge those values published, but we know a couple of things. For instance, the Krylov hull type allowed much higher amount of aircraft per kT. The hull of the Varan seems really wide, I doubt it has the speed of designs like the Kuznetsov, but maybe it actually has a very big internal capacity. In the diagram, the carrier missing is the one which is the most interesting, the medium carrier by Krylov, with 60 kT and almost he capability of the Shtorm. Electromechanical catapults and CONAG propulsion, the perfect balance. It was mentioned but either it was not shown, or they used the same basic layout of the light carrier by Krylov. I think that is the really promising design VMF has got their hands onto, maybe Nevskoye is trying now to counterattack with other innovative proposals?
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7176
    Points : 7162
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  Isos Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:44 pm

    Varan is too small. They put no weapons on it so no radar and FCS.

    Adding another 30m wouldn't be bad.


    It's too much compact. On the picture it's easy to draw 24 aircraft but in operation I doubt it could have more than 10 on the bridge. Not to mention that high intensity operations would be complicated by the recovery being impossible when plane takes off. Not only do the catapult precent that but they would also oblige sailors and plabes to move around the landing zone.

    IMO it's as good as the indian carrier, pretty bad. But the design looks good and the island is small and good looking. Some pantsir on the side should be added.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2984
    Points : 2986
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  LMFS Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:41 pm

    It does not even have ramp, no mast for proper radars, second TO position in the middle of landing strip etc. It is difficult to understand what the proposal is all about, honestly.
    avatar
    limb

    Posts : 100
    Points : 108
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  limb Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:56 am

    One consideration against a light carrier like the 45000ton Varan is the power needed to use the electromagnetic catapult. I dont know if power miniaturization and capacitor tech has gone far enough, and capacitors for it will take a lot of space, and on a small carrier space is at a premium. Also the larger the carrier is, the more powerful and rapid charging  the catapult so that would improve loadout capabilities and sortie rate.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2984
    Points : 2986
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  LMFS Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:01 am

    Must read about Varan, from Nevskoye

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10773887

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 6003503

    The key: it is not a carrier, but an UDK!
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2984
    Points : 2986
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  LMFS Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:52 pm

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 EvEhLqKWgAQB5zW?format=jpg&name=large

    http://www.npkb.ru/html/varan.html
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7176
    Points : 7162
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  Isos Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:39 pm

    With that many aircraft on baord it's hardly going to carry anything else.

    What are the other 2 ships on the picture ?
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2168
    Points : 2158
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  hoom Today at 7:16 am

    I kinda dig this Varan concept.

    Scaled comparison by Charly015 shows the angled deck is nearly same size as K
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Umk%2Bvara%2Bvs%2Bkuznetsov

    Small forward island precludes designing the starboard cat for simultaneous use with landing ops but provides a big unobstructed deck park aft which should make for much more efficient deck handling/prep vs K.
    Also extra deck park on port outside the angled deck fed by its own lift.

    The lifts seem weirdly small at first but K lifts are actually much bigger than they strictly need to be (designed assuming K would take bigger planes like Yak-44 later?)
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 8bca6de2432be64e8c5d1b092fc4162a
    So you can save a bunch of weight, deck & hangar area by scaling them down to match the stuff its actually going to fly.

    I'm not so keen on being entirely unarmed as here but looking at the family concept
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 1
    The LHD variant on left has Pantsir-Ms covering each corner in positions that could be matched with minor rework of the Varan

    Sponsored content

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:33 am