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Log inGorshkov class frigates actually have a active/passive OTH radar for AShM targeting. It's the round one below the main mast, Monolith I think is it's name. I'm on my phone right now so I can't access my bookmarks for it's specs yet.
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Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
x_54_u43- Posts : 337
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- Post n°476
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
x_54_u43 Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:58 am
kvs likes this post
limb- Posts : 1446
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Which lacks the endurance, radar power, and ability to take off and land in rough weather unlike the E-2.Ka-31 is already in service and operational...
This implies the US navy had an advantage during the cold war in detecting sea skimming missiles 500km out, while the Russian navy could do maybe 150km at most.Soviet groups had a huge array of onboard radars, placed as high as possible, because of the need to overcome the radar horizon. The US missiles are not fast enough to be a big threat IMHO unless launched in huge salvos, but still that is a delicate issue as far as I know. The topic of the OTH SW radar we discussed before, but I don't see it implemented, not that I am aware at least. It would be very nice and it would change things a bit in naval warfare, but systems like Podsolnukh are not specially small. The only onboard OTH systems I am aware on Russian vessels are passive radiolocators.
https://www.aorti.ru/en/competencies/radar-system/Podsolnukh-E/
Of course one of the main declared roles of AWACS is to provide naval groups early warning about low flying targets that would go otherwise below the radar horizon of the fleet, this is a major vulnerability of any surface force and one big reason for the need of carriers (not necessarily light ones) and air power in general, so that you can detect and down those missiles and their carriers before they become a problem. Additionally you have the issue of the radar silence that a fleet with AWACS can use but a fleet without them cannot, at any time, so they give themselves away at great distances.
The comment regarding radar silence is also eye opening.
It really sucks that the russian navy hasn't seriously installed OTH radars.
Isos- Posts : 10623
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x_54_u43 wrote:Gorshkov class frigates actually have a active/passive OTH radar for AShM targeting. It's the round one below the main mast, Monolith I think is it's name. I'm on my phone right now so I can't access my bookmarks for it's specs yet.
It's Mineral.
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/mineral-me/
450km in passive mode. 250 in active mode.
But I think they use triangulation so you need at least 3 ships. 9 max interacting ships connected.
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LMFS- Posts : 5022
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Yes, the passive OTH function is known, AWACS have it too, coastal defence missile complexes too, I referred above to it. From ROE's site:
The Passive Radar Channel provides for:
over-the-horizon detection of the radars emission;
The Passive Radar Channel provides for:
over-the-horizon detection of the radars emission;
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kvs- Posts : 13988
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The active OTH radars are coming into realization thanks to real time signal processing capacity and the development of
signal processing algorithms. This stuff wasn't worked out 100 years ago. It is bleeding edge.
But passive OTH radar signal detectors are not useless either since one ship or aircraft managing to light up an
AShM allows it to be detected by any ship with such detectors. Even a snapshot is useful.
The civilian systems cannot be dismissed since they have to deal with signal processing issues that are universal.
The research work enabling such systems is dual use.
signal processing algorithms. This stuff wasn't worked out 100 years ago. It is bleeding edge.
But passive OTH radar signal detectors are not useless either since one ship or aircraft managing to light up an
AShM allows it to be detected by any ship with such detectors. Even a snapshot is useful.
The civilian systems cannot be dismissed since they have to deal with signal processing issues that are universal.
The research work enabling such systems is dual use.
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GarryB- Posts : 35768
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- Post n°481
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
GarryB Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:08 am
Which lacks the endurance, radar power, and ability to take off and land in rough weather unlike the E-2.
It is not ideal, but being a standard Helix type helo it can pretty much land and refuel on any Russian ship corvette sized or bigger... its bad weather performance is actually very very good, and its endurance is not that bad... especially considering you could carry half a dozen of these things on the Kuznetsov easily enough.
The only onboard OTH systems I am aware on Russian vessels are passive radiolocators.
Apart from satellite based systems and other platforms like subs etc...
This implies the US navy had an advantage during the cold war in detecting sea skimming missiles 500km out, while the Russian navy could do maybe 150km at most.
AWACS platforms and fighter aircraft give a massive early warning advantage, which is why the Soviets came to the conclusion that the US would detect an attack, so their best attack was numbers and high speed.
The Kh-32 operates at 40km altitude at mach 4.5 so it flys over US Navy air defence capacity and its vertical dives makes it almost impossible for the weapons on the ship being targeted to defeat it... (their radars can't point straight up for the engagement.)
The Russian Navy however could smack down eye watering numbers of subsonic missiles... the US would have struggled to sink Russian ships most of the time.
LMFS- Posts : 5022
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Nevskoe design bureau presented the project of the universal sea ship "Varan"
It can carry 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 unmanned aerial vehicles.
MOSCOW, January 18. / TASS /. The Nevsky Design Bureau (PKB, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has developed two new projects of universal ships, in particular the Varan universal sea ship (UMK) and a new universal landing ship (UDC). This is stated in the materials of the PKB dedicated to the 90th anniversary of the enterprise and available to TASS.
UMK "Varan" is an aircraft-carrying complex, characterized by a high degree of automation and the possibility of using robotic systems. It can carry 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 unmanned aerial vehicles.
The ship's displacement is about 45 thousand tons, length - about 250 m, width - 65 m, draft at the structural waterline - 9 m. "Varan" is capable of speeds up to 26 knots.
The displacement of the promising UDC is about 30 thousand tons. The length of the ship reaches about 220 m, the width is 42 m, the draft along the constructive waterline is 7 m. The new UDC is capable of developing a speed of about 24 knots. There are seven helicopter landing pads on the deck of the ship.
Nevskoe PKB is one of the largest domestic developers of universal ships and the only designer of aircraft carriers and training complexes in Russia. The company celebrates its 90th anniversary on 18 January.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10488643
Nevskoe design bureau started working out the concept of floating airfields
The bureau said that these platforms will become "a kind of centers for supporting the entire spectrum of activities of Russia and partner countries in the Arctic."
MOSCOW, January 18. / TASS /. The Nevsky Design Bureau (PKB, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) develops floating airfields for aviation for various purposes. This is stated in the materials of the PKB dedicated to the 90th anniversary of the enterprise and available to TASS.
"As part of the initiative work of the Nevsky Design Bureau, pre-design studies of the architectural and structural appearance of floating islands and airfields are being carried out," the materials say.
As noted in the bureau, floating airfields can be used to support the actions of transport, rescue and military aviation in the Arctic, develop new gas fields in the northern seas, ensure the safety of navigation of the Northern Sea Route and perform the functions of the Ministry of Defense in the Arctic zone. "[These platforms] will become a kind of centers for supporting the entire spectrum of activities of Russia and partner countries in the Arctic," the booklet says.
The PKB stressed that floating aerodromes ensure all-weather use of the runway in the Arctic, as well as countering the longitudinal and lateral rolling of the platform during takeoff and landing operations.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10488755
It can carry 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 unmanned aerial vehicles.
MOSCOW, January 18. / TASS /. The Nevsky Design Bureau (PKB, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has developed two new projects of universal ships, in particular the Varan universal sea ship (UMK) and a new universal landing ship (UDC). This is stated in the materials of the PKB dedicated to the 90th anniversary of the enterprise and available to TASS.
UMK "Varan" is an aircraft-carrying complex, characterized by a high degree of automation and the possibility of using robotic systems. It can carry 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 unmanned aerial vehicles.
The ship's displacement is about 45 thousand tons, length - about 250 m, width - 65 m, draft at the structural waterline - 9 m. "Varan" is capable of speeds up to 26 knots.
The displacement of the promising UDC is about 30 thousand tons. The length of the ship reaches about 220 m, the width is 42 m, the draft along the constructive waterline is 7 m. The new UDC is capable of developing a speed of about 24 knots. There are seven helicopter landing pads on the deck of the ship.
Nevskoe PKB is one of the largest domestic developers of universal ships and the only designer of aircraft carriers and training complexes in Russia. The company celebrates its 90th anniversary on 18 January.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10488643
Nevskoe design bureau started working out the concept of floating airfields
The bureau said that these platforms will become "a kind of centers for supporting the entire spectrum of activities of Russia and partner countries in the Arctic."
MOSCOW, January 18. / TASS /. The Nevsky Design Bureau (PKB, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) develops floating airfields for aviation for various purposes. This is stated in the materials of the PKB dedicated to the 90th anniversary of the enterprise and available to TASS.
"As part of the initiative work of the Nevsky Design Bureau, pre-design studies of the architectural and structural appearance of floating islands and airfields are being carried out," the materials say.
As noted in the bureau, floating airfields can be used to support the actions of transport, rescue and military aviation in the Arctic, develop new gas fields in the northern seas, ensure the safety of navigation of the Northern Sea Route and perform the functions of the Ministry of Defense in the Arctic zone. "[These platforms] will become a kind of centers for supporting the entire spectrum of activities of Russia and partner countries in the Arctic," the booklet says.
The PKB stressed that floating aerodromes ensure all-weather use of the runway in the Arctic, as well as countering the longitudinal and lateral rolling of the platform during takeoff and landing operations.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10488755
dino00, PapaDragon, Isos, thegopnik, Backman and Rasisuki Nebia like this post
PapaDragon- Posts : 12790
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- Post n°483
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
PapaDragon Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:59 am
Allright, we might be on to something here...
Looks reasonable enough (love the name too)
Isos- Posts : 10623
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I see VTOL aircraft.
That's nice and it could end up that the helicopter carrier become this ship very quickly.
Nice design.
That's nice and it could end up that the helicopter carrier become this ship very quickly.
Nice design.
Backman- Posts : 2048
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- Post n°485
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Backman Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:53 am
^Now we are talkin.
It looks like maybe VTOL aircraft on the starboard side. But those on the port side look like su 33's. Plus an su 33 is lined up for takeoff.
I support it if su 57's can fit on the deck. Just no to VTOL aircraft. Rigging up a catapult system for a powerful jet like a phase 2 su 57 has to be cheaper. WAY cheaper.
It looks like maybe VTOL aircraft on the starboard side. But those on the port side look like su 33's. Plus an su 33 is lined up for takeoff.
I support it if su 57's can fit on the deck. Just no to VTOL aircraft. Rigging up a catapult system for a powerful jet like a phase 2 su 57 has to be cheaper. WAY cheaper.
PapaDragon- Posts : 12790
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- Post n°486
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
PapaDragon Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:09 am
Isos wrote:I see VTOL aircraft.
That's nice and it could end up that the helicopter carrier become this ship very quickly.
Nice design.
Not VTOL necessarily, it could simply be that proposed single engine fighter jet
Also, this ship would clearly be nuclear
George1- Posts : 17915
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- Post n°487
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
George1 Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:16 am
Varan looks like a smal aircraft carrier with MiG-29Ks. A class similar to Kuznetsov
GarryB- Posts : 35768
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- Post n°488
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
GarryB Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:03 pm
But I think they use triangulation so you need at least 3 ships. 9 max interacting ships connected.
Or they could simply move and track it while moving... and take signals over time from slightly different locations to get a fix...
This new ship design looks unarmed... terrible.
Also the single tower design would be a problem as the tower functions to sail the ship but also to manage the air group (ie control tower at an air port as well as a ships bridge). A control tower works better from the rear (on a normal airfield the direction the aircraft land from depends on the wind direction, but on a carrier it is always from behind so moving the tower rearward makes sense). Sailing the ship from the bridge is normally done from the front...
It look unarmed and devoid of any sensors... it looks like a western carrier design.
BTW the lack of a ski jump suggests catapult launch only so no VSTOL fighters for this carrier... having a ski jump deck design is ideal for VSTOL aircraft to get airborne with the most possible weight...
Isos- Posts : 10623
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PapaDragon wrote:Isos wrote:I see VTOL aircraft.
That's nice and it could end up that the helicopter carrier become this ship very quickly.
Nice design.
Not VTOL necessarily, it could simply be that proposed single engine fighter jet
Also, this ship would clearly be nuclear
They look like yak-141.
Not necessarly nuclear. The little carrier they alrzady showed was said to be conventionnal abd its exhausts were designed in the superstructure.
The article also talks about a new helicopter carrier/ landing ship. IMO they are made on the same basis. However they are already building 2 so they won't choose this design.
I'm affraid this this thing will have the same future as the Shtorm or Lamantin. Only a design.
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George1- Posts : 17915
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- Post n°490
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
George1 Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:11 pm
Isos wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Isos wrote:I see VTOL aircraft.
That's nice and it could end up that the helicopter carrier become this ship very quickly.
Nice design.
Not VTOL necessarily, it could simply be that proposed single engine fighter jet
Also, this ship would clearly be nuclear
They look like yak-141.
Not necessarly nuclear. The little carrier they alrzady showed was said to be conventionnal abd its exhausts were designed in the superstructure.
The article also talks about a new helicopter carrier/ landing ship. IMO they are made on the same basis. However they are already building 2 so they won't choose this design.
I'm affraid this this thing will have the same future as the Shtorm or Lamantin. Only a design.
i think they look like a type of UAV. They dont have cockpit
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Isos- Posts : 10623
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The picture is shitty quality to say so but it looks really strange. Anyway I doubt that a naval design bureau would give the design of a new aircraft. It was just designed quickly different than su-33 so they can show that many different aircraft can be used. Even the blue su-33 doesn't look like su-33.
Anyway did they post the picture of the second ship they talk about in the article somewhere ?
Anyway did they post the picture of the second ship they talk about in the article somewhere ?
George1- Posts : 17915
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- Post n°492
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
George1 Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:29 pm
LMFS wrote:Nevskoe design bureau presented the project of the universal sea ship "Varan"
It can carry 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 unmanned aerial vehicles.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10488755
Isos- Posts : 10623
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The unmanned vehicles are the little choppers near the sail.
What I say is similar to yak-141 is the 3 black jet in the rear right and they seem to have a cockpit.
What I say is similar to yak-141 is the 3 black jet in the rear right and they seem to have a cockpit.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7403
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- Post n°494
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
miketheterrible Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:17 pm
This is the type of vessels I said years ago should be built.
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arbataach- Posts : 2
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- Post n°495
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
arbataach Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:50 pm
hello,
if I am just there is still no air carrier chapter in russian doctrine.(?)
so this project is perhaps a call for a cooperation ( with india ?) Russians dont develop alone an emal air carrier.
deck too short, speed too slow, plane to heavy...
if I am just there is still no air carrier chapter in russian doctrine.(?)
so this project is perhaps a call for a cooperation ( with india ?) Russians dont develop alone an emal air carrier.
deck too short, speed too slow, plane to heavy...
Isos- Posts : 10623
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arbataach wrote:hello,
if I am just there is still no air carrier chapter in russian doctrine.(?)
so this project is perhaps a call for a cooperation ( with india ?) Russians dont develop alone an emal air carrier.
deck too short, speed too slow, plane to heavy...
You need to introduce yourself in the good thread before posting.
As far as we know russian navy isn't still planing a carrier.
All those projects are just made by the design bureaus by themselves to show what they can do. If the russian navy starts a projects they will first give specification and design bureau will create a design according to that.
This project looks like french charles de gaulles with a modern design. It lacks weapons but also the catapults are on the landing zone which makes impossible catapulting and recovery at the same time. It is also a small carrier, they could have gone for 300m at least to give it some freedom. However it seems to be cheap and easy to build. If they can make one for them I guess they will have some export clients for it.
Backman- Posts : 2048
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- Post n°497
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Backman Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:42 pm
GarryB wrote:But I think they use triangulation so you need at least 3 ships. 9 max interacting ships connected.
Or they could simply move and track it while moving... and take signals over time from slightly different locations to get a fix...
This new ship design looks unarmed... terrible.
Also the single tower design would be a problem as the tower functions to sail the ship but also to manage the air group (ie control tower at an air port as well as a ships bridge). A control tower works better from the rear (on a normal airfield the direction the aircraft land from depends on the wind direction, but on a carrier it is always from behind so moving the tower rearward makes sense). Sailing the ship from the bridge is normally done from the front...
It look unarmed and devoid of any sensors... it looks like a western carrier design.
BTW the lack of a ski jump suggests catapult launch only so no VSTOL fighters for this carrier... having a ski jump deck design is ideal for VSTOL aircraft to get airborne with the most possible weight...
Those are specifics and could be legit concerns. When I say I like it , I mostly mean the concept. The size and scope mostly. A small carrier with a catapult. Which is something the British used to do.
It seems like they are focusing on automation too. To reduce the size of the crew. Which is something the Russians focus on in their submarines. Russian subs have more automation and smaller crews than even the most modern US subs
LMFS- Posts : 5022
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- Post n°498
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
LMFS Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:58 pm
There are aspects of automation that indeed could make sense, like handling the plane sin the hangar, servicing, maybe even fuelling and arming could be done to a certain extent in automated stations, there was a crazy multihull proposal I made couple of years ago that would handle planes a bit like a production line.
Has Nevskoe's proposal anything to do with that, o what is the automation they are thinking about?
Has Nevskoe's proposal anything to do with that, o what is the automation they are thinking about?
kvs- Posts : 13988
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Building something the size of Kuznetsov but without the missiles and other functionality just to host UAVs and some helicopters
is a royal waste of money. Batch build proper Kuznetsov replacements and then task some of them in this UAV carrier role.
Way more military value and no extra cost for low volume manufacturing.
is a royal waste of money. Batch build proper Kuznetsov replacements and then task some of them in this UAV carrier role.
Way more military value and no extra cost for low volume manufacturing.
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limb- Posts : 1446
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- Post n°500
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
limb Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:24 am
If the carrier is going to be nuclear powered, why not just make it as large as possible. It really sucks that Russians are trying to make their icebreakers bigger but not their carriers. Small carriers have repeatedly proven to be of very limited worth in combat capability and their price is still to high for what its worth. This was proven by both the royal and US navies in the cold war. This isn't WW2.
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