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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:23 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    dino00 wrote:MOSCOW, December 30 - RIA Novosti. The displacement of the universal amphibious assault ships - helicopter carriers, being built in Kerch , will amount to 40 thousand tons, twice as much as previously reported, said Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko .

    "Under the leadership of the President of the Russian Federation, two universal amphibious assault ships of a new project with a displacement of 40 thousand tons each were laid down," he said in an interview with the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper
    .


    https://ria.ru/20201230/vertoletonostsy-1591490559.html

    Shocked Shocked

    These two ships would take China about 1 year to build. While it's true Russian shipyards aren't as modern as Chinese shipyards, it should take Russia about 2 to 4 years to build.

    That was your last warning. clown It's about time to take Old Yeller out to pasture!

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    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:55 pm

    Is there a photo of the construction?
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:53 pm

    Rasisuki Nebia wrote:....Edit: Also wouldn't this amount to a considerable change in design ? if so no wonder the costs are up to 50 billion Ruble

    There ain't no changing something this much, it was 40.000 from the get go

    This makes it pretty much the size of Chinese Type-75

    With this they will have both landing ships and aircraft carriers covered (with appropriate modifications down the road, Izumo-style)

    This increase in size will also increase need for upgraded Ivan Gren-class since Rogov-class will obviously be available in smaller numbers than it would have been in smaller version

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    Post  mnztr Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:01 pm

    This makes a LOT of sense, I look forward to hearing what the propulsion choice is. These make the ships about the size of the de Gaulle which is pretty darn efffective IMHO. If they can deploy EMALS it would be great of they are CATOBAR ships and if they can use the propulsion from the Arktika class that would be SWEET!!!
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    Post  Hole Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:29 pm

    Maybe not with the Ships No. 1 and 2.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:12 pm

    mnztr wrote:This makes a LOT of sense, I look forward to hearing what the propulsion choice is. These make the ships about the size of the de Gaulle which is pretty darn efffective IMHO. If they can deploy EMALS it would be great of they are CATOBAR ships and if they can use the propulsion from the Arktika class that would be SWEET!!!

    They are UDKs not CVNs
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    Post  mnztr Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:47 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    They are UDKs not CVNs

    Who says anything needs to be in a fixed catagory. Some of the US ships were built without a dock, word is the Chinese will put a catapult on theirs. (and they are not as big as the Russian ones.)
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    Post  mnztr Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:50 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    If i am not mistaken Charles de Gaulle carrier needs to be almost constantly replenished,  much more often than their American counterparts... furthermore 40 rafales is stretching their capabilities as well. Even the american super carriers do not operate at full aircraft load because they will have other issues.


    Never confuse the max capacity with what they typically do. Planes can easily be flown out to the carrier to enable surge operations.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:39 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Who says anything needs to be in a fixed catagory. Some of the US ships were built without a dock, word is the Chinese will put a catapult on theirs. (and they are not as big as the Russian ones.)

    The UDK typically is a vessel where internal space is maximized because it needs to carry a substantial amount of forces for a landing, its sea-keeping capacities and specially navigation speed are secondary. The carrier is an oceanic ship that needs high speed and endurance, has no need for a dock and that is optimized for he operation of fixed wing aircraft. There are substantial differences created by those requirements in the propulsion, hull and onboard systems. What US does needs to be strongly filtered for meaningfulness before replicating it, they demand to have 15 CSGs to be capable of attending all the hot-spots they could see themselves involved simultaneously, so of course they want some of their LHA and LHD to be as close as possible to a carrier as possible. If that makes any sense is questionable. Meanwhile, VMF has no UDK at all, and they would need ships capable of fulfilling their main role first and foremost. They are not going to built 20 UDK, so the likelihood of them making frivolous experiments with them is low IMHO. What has been said until now is clear: they will carry helicopters and land forces for an amphibious operation and will have conventional propulsion, other options would be us simply speculating.

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    Post  mnztr Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:44 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    The UDK typically is a vessel where internal space is maximized because it needs to carry a substantial amount of forces for a landing, its sea-keeping capacities and specially navigation speed are secondary. The carrier is an oceanic ship that needs high speed and endurance, has no need for a dock and that is optimized for he operation of fixed wing aircraft. There are substantial differences created by those requirements in the propulsion, hull and onboard systems. What US does needs to be strongly filtered for meaningfulness before replicating it, they demand to have 15 CSGs to be capable of attending all the hot-spots they could see themselves involved simultaneously, so of course they want some of their LHA and LHD to be as close as possible to a carrier as possible. If that makes any sense is questionable. Meanwhile, VMF has no UDK at all, and they would need ships capable of fulfilling their main role first and foremost. They are not going to built 20 UDK, so the likelihood of them making frivolous experiments with them is low IMHO. What has been said until now is clear: they will carry helicopters and land forces for an amphibious operation and will have conventional propulsion, other options would be us simply speculating.

    Yes I know that but the possibility is that the larger version of the Ivan Gren class will fullfill this while the new ships are more focused on the essential aviation component of a successful landing of troops.
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    Post  marcellogo Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:57 pm

    Certainly the 23900 having a catamaran i.e.double hull would open IMHO a series of new possibilities into developing something that could bridge the gap btw CV and UDK.

    "Wet" part of the twin hull could be designed to get higher speeds that the ones possible with a conventional one, loading space would instead sit over the waves.
    Another advantage of such a configuration could possibly be the possibility of having a larger flying deck that the one on a single hull ship.
    I would however try to keep them as simpl as possible i.e. no EMALS or CATOBAR.
    STOVL or STOBAR would be more than enough.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:37 pm

    marcellogo wrote:Certainly the 23900 having a catamaran i.e.double hull would open IMHO a series of new possibilities into developing something that could bridge the gap btw CV and UDK.

    "Wet" part of the twin hull could be designed to get higher speeds that the ones possible with a conventional one, loading space would instead sit over the waves.
    Another advantage of such a configuration could possibly be the possibility of having a larger flying deck that the one on a single hull ship.
    I would however try to keep them as simpl as possible i.e. no EMALS or CATOBAR.
    STOVL or STOBAR would be more than enough.
    I agree. The eventual use of VSTOL planes will be an added functionality of this class of ships..I see it as a sort of cherry on the top. A (very) useful addition (and it can also facilitate sales of the aircraft and the vessel to foreign countries) but it will not replace a full carrier (and it is probably not very wise to try and add to the ship too many new functionalities and untested technologies.


    And yeah the upgraded and enlarged 11711M will solve some of the needs for amphibious ships especially if they produce several of them.

    By the way, it is also possible that if they cannot build them in a good number some smaller ships would be useful too, as an example some cheaper landing transport docks with a full displacement around 4000 tons, like the old project 775 (Ropucha class) and the 1171 (Alligator class).

    The ones existing are quite long in the teeth and have been used extensively. I see the enlarged Ivan Gren more as a replacement for the old Ivan Rogov class (even if with different functionalities) as a replacement for ropucha and Alligator.

    I would also be curious to hear more news about the VSTOL combat planes, whether they are actually working on them and at what stage of development are they.

    Concerning the proper aircraft wing and the catapult, eventually Russia will build a full carrier with both an angled ramp and a catapult.

    The most promising project that I have seen was a sort of modernised Ulyanovsk, called Lamantin, but that is totally another story.
    https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/4/2020/2/10/273/

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    Post  mnztr Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:06 am

    marcellogo wrote:Certainly the 23900 having a catamaran i.e.double hull would open IMHO a series of new possibilities into developing something that could bridge the gap btw CV and UDK.

    "Wet" part of the twin hull could be designed to get higher speeds that the ones possible with a conventional one, loading space would instead sit over the waves.
    Another advantage of such a configuration could possibly be the possibility of having a larger flying deck that the one on a single hull ship.
    I would however try to keep them as simpl as possible i.e. no EMALS or CATOBAR.
    STOVL or STOBAR would be more than enough.

    SOTVL requires an aircraft be developed which is super high risk and expensive. STOBAR is somewhat logical, but the point is EMALS is not necessarily super complex and lends itself to a whole range of important tech the Russians need anyway.
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    Post  LMFS Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:38 am

    marcellogo wrote:Certainly the 23900 having a catamaran i.e.double hull would open IMHO a series of new possibilities into developing something that could bridge the gap btw CV and UDK.

    "Wet" part of the twin hull could be designed to get higher speeds that the ones possible with a conventional one, loading space would instead sit over the waves.
    Another advantage of such a configuration could possibly be the possibility of having a larger flying deck that the one on a single hull ship.
    I would however try to keep them as simpl as possible i.e. no EMALS or CATOBAR.
    STOVL or STOBAR would be more than enough.

    The proposal by Krylov (Priboi) was a semicatamaran, I was holding still some tiny hope they would go that way since I had proposed something similar (trimaran hull) time ago. They are very fast, they have good sea-keeping and of course they have the logical advantages you have mentioned, together with way smaller propulsive needs if the speed is kept low as other UDKs do. But the model shown has nothing to do with that, so the hope they use the breakthrough design proposed by Krylov with its huge advantages is essentially gone. They should know what is best and what is possible right now. We will see, but at least from what we read, the project is not even close to being finished.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:19 am

    LMFS wrote:
    mnztr wrote:This makes a LOT of sense, I look forward to hearing what the propulsion choice is. These make the ships about the size of the de Gaulle which is pretty darn efffective IMHO. If they can deploy EMALS it would be great of they are CATOBAR ships and if they can use the propulsion from the Arktika class that would be SWEET!!!

    They are UDKs not CVNs

    South Koreans know what I'm talking about

    They took LHD design and tweaked it to carrier, roughly same displacement as Rogov

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:45 pm

    Considering its primary fighter aircraft is an expensive dog I would say it is a dumb idea...
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    Post  mnztr Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:Considering its primary fighter aircraft is an expensive dog I would say it is a dumb idea...

    Its more of a delivery truck ...lol
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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:42 pm

    If your truck is breaking down continuously it´s time to change the model/supplier.

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    Post  Isos Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:11 pm

    South korea could buy yak 141 doc and build its own vtol. Russia already helped them with s-350 technology and it was already sold to US for the f-35 program so there is nothing secret anymore.

    Avionics, radar and body can be homemade and buy the engines from Russia.

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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:32 pm

    Isos wrote:South korea could buy yak 141 doc and build its own vtol. Russia already helped them with s-350 technology and it was already sold to US for the f-35 program so there is nothing secret anymore.

    Avionics, radar and body can be homemade and buy the engines from Russia.

    Oh please, nobody will be making Yak-141 again not even Russia

    Time for that is long gone and besides Americans already made improved version

    F-35 can be even worse than expected but it has one colossal advantage over competition: it exists


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    Post  Isos Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:51 pm

    Buying yak 141 docs for a new jet. Not building the old yak 141.

    Make their own f-35 but without going crazy like the US.

    Then use that experience to create a normal fighter and get ride of US fighters.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:30 pm

    Isos wrote:Buying yak 141 docs for a new jet. Not building the old yak 141.

    Make their own f-35 but without going crazy like the US.

    Then use that experience to create a normal fighter and get ride of US fighters.

    Or just do the logical and cost effective thing and use F-35

    Saves loads of money and decades of time, whatever they make will be inferior to F-35 they can barely build trainer jets

    And why would they want to get rid of US fighters? They have been dominating the Norks for decades thanks to them
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    Post  mnztr Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:02 pm

    Isos wrote:Buying yak 141 docs for a new jet. Not building the old yak 141.

    Make their own f-35 but without going crazy like the US.

    Then use that experience to create a normal fighter and get ride of US fighters.

    The cost of designing, building and testing a plane is BILLIONS. Even the crappy Korean T50 cost billions to design and put into production. Just to take the T-50 and evolve it into a fighter cost 2B ...fighternomics are not forgiving.
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    Post  Isos Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:09 pm

    Billions that stay within the country and create jobs but also an industry that will create high qualified jobs for a hundred of years.


    100 f-35 cost billions (more than a local program for a vtol jet) and they go in US pockets. And they keep being US dogs controled by the US that can make those f-35 as flyable as a horse shit by stoping supply of spare parts if korean gov doesn't obei and switch for russian/chinese/european/local firms instead of US firms in the civilian or military market.


    Any guy with 2 cells in its brain would choose the first option.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:44 am

    Isos wrote:Billions that stay within the country and create jobs but also an industry that will create high qualified jobs for a hundred of years.


    100 f-35 cost billions (more than a local program for a vtol jet) and they go in US pockets. And they keep being US dogs controled by the US that can make those f-35 as flyable as a horse shit by stoping supply of spare parts if korean gov doesn't obei and switch for russian/chinese/european/local firms instead of US firms in the civilian or military market.


    Any guy with 2 cells in its brain would choose the first option.

    100 F-35s will cost about $9B or so plus S. Korea is part of the F-35 partner group and gets contracts to develop and manufacture parts of the plane. if you contrast the options, Japan spent 12.7B to buy 98 slightly larger F-16s with updated avionics (F-2). The T-50 was the best Korea could come up with with US assistance, they are now working on the KF-X. Even using GE-414 engines this is a 9B R&D effort. (just R&D)

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