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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:21 am

    They don't need to rush. Nobody will threaten their domination in the oceans for a long time. Possibly only China in the long run. They are already building a lot of destroyers. Russia has not yet started building new DDGs, and even if it does, there will be several in a decade.
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    Post  hoom Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:08 pm

    But they are building another new modernized Arleigh Burke. There are plans for 20 more ship. Mananother of the ships are quite young. AB's fleet of destroyers is impressive 68 units also heavily armed, which can function as ABM systems.
    All true but it remains the case that if you see a picture of a USN ship over the last decade or so its almost certainly covered in rust.

    Adding more new ships adds more workload on already overloaded shipyards -> more delayed maintenance & the decision whether to try to maintain the newer ships, allowing the older ships to degrade or to try to keep the older ships running but let the newer ships wear out quicker.

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    Post  mnztr Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:




    Yes, but even within 2,000km of any Russian airfield there is most of the rest of the planet to consider. Also the fact that aircraft can't land on the water and board a ship they suspect of smuggling or illegally fishing.

    Russia is looking to open up a North Sea Route for ships sailing from Asia to the EU and back... they need to be able to police that which means ships and aircraft.

    Russia needs to be able to interact with the whole world if it wants to grow and flourish... the west will keep it cornered and try to isolate it and they will get away with that if they can bully countries around the world not to trade with Russia or China.

    Russian land based air power would be of little use in Venezuela if Trump had decided to send in the Marines, but Russia having a destroyer and a few other ships visit do you think those Marines would get the green light to go?

    I am not suggesting Russia use its ships to fight the US... I am suggesting Russia being a global power able to send decent forces anywhere within a few days will prevent the US from doing as it pleases and choking Russia from international trade.

    Small countries around the world have a choice who to trade with... as long as that choice is the US because otherwise the big bully America will impose sanctions and cut them off from the world in a way they fail to do with Russia. Having a Russia with a real global navy (I don't mean 10 carriers groups and can fight in every ocean at one time to dominate the planet like the US tries to) but a navy that can sail anywhere they please and support allies with their presence.

    Small countries will feel safer trading with Russia and for that matter China, if those countries have modern capable navies that can show up to deter the bullies from marking their territory with piss.


    Small countries and even large ones are afraid of CAATSA, no navy is gonna help that. Any force of marines can be easily deterred by landing a small contingent of planes in Venezuela. Fishing and anti piracy issues can easily be dealt with by the patrol ships they are building. Sattelite recon and long range patrols aircraft and drones should ensure no corvette is ever "surprised" also the corvette can also operate drones to a fair distance. With 8 Tsirkon and decent survillence no covette is gonna be a sitting duck. If the US sinks a Russian ship then there is hell to pay, they know that. Sink a Russian ship and Russia will sink a US ship, except it will be a bigger one. They cannot go toe to toe with the USN in a conventional sense. They have 1/3 the population, much smaller GDP and difficult weather. Northern sea route will mostly be ice breaking and SAR. I doubt there will be any piracy or secuirty issues. If so Russian subs or aircraft can take out any threats. They are already experimenting with basing MIG-31s in the Arctic. Russia will DOMINATE the Arctic because really, they are the premier Arctic nation. No one else has enough real interest to do so. The fleet of Nuclear ice breakers, patrol ships and nuclear subs means Russia dominates the Arctic today. Russia is much better off investing in bases like they have in Syria, one in Venezuela would be ideal, and maybe they can build one in Vietnam.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:57 am

    Small countries and even large ones are afraid of CAATSA, no navy is gonna help that.

    They fear the bully that seems to have all the money and the technology and knowledge they need to grow and develop... but what if there was an alternative... other countries they could trade with that don't make demands that laws be changed and their people released from prison for crimes committed in your country...

    They will soon realise all these years of trading with the west has not developed their countries very much at all... look at Russian development over the last 20 years... they don't have the resources... or maybe they do... but now they have a new path they can follow and not just Russia but also China and perhaps other countries too like India and Brazil and South Africa.... there are a lot of countries that are not tied to the west who can trade with the rest of the world and are not forced to do as the US demands... of course Brazil and India are at risk of leaving that group, but that is their choice to make.

    Any force of marines can be easily deterred by landing a small contingent of planes in Venezuela.

    What small group of planes can intimidate a US carrier group?

    A few ships with UKSK launch tubes that might contain Onyx or Zircon would be a much better deterrent and can spend weeks or months there... with aircraft not so much.

    Sattelite recon and long range patrols aircraft and drones should ensure no corvette is ever "surprised" also the corvette can also operate drones to a fair distance. With 8 Tsirkon and decent survillence no covette is gonna be a sitting duck.

    Of course it is, because its self defence capability is not strong.... nothing like a Frigate let alone a destroyer... and the support ships that keep it supplied would also need protection too.

    If the US sinks a Russian ship then there is hell to pay, they know that.

    And if Turkey shoots down a plane? Or Columbia launches a Harpoon missile etc etc or an unknown sub launches missiles...

    Sink a Russian ship and Russia will sink a US ship, except it will be a bigger one.

    No they would not. Sinking a US ship would serve no practical purpose... just like they didn't shoot down Turkish fighters after a Turkish fighter shot down a Russian plane in Syria.

    The point is that with a bigger ship they would not be able to sink it because the effort would be enormous to launch that number of missiles.

    They cannot go toe to toe with the USN in a conventional sense.

    Course they can, but I agree they wont.

    HATO spent most of the cold war pretending a small but professional well armed force can defeat a much bigger force with the right weapons and the right tactics... well the Russians seem to have the right weapons and the right tactics for the job.

    The west has numbers but not the ability to exploit that by concentrating their numbers anywhere... because that could simply be countered with with nukes.

    Having 12 carrier groups means nothing if the first two carrier groups approaching Russia get smoked by MiG-31Ks with hypersonic missiles and Onyx missiles from corvettes... the remaining 10 carrier groups wont just charge in and if they do they wont last long either...

    They have 1/3 the population, much smaller GDP and difficult weather.

    The population size of WWII Germany didn't stop them occupying all of what is now Europe plus belarus, the ukraine and a large chunk of western Russia...

    Northern sea route will mostly be ice breaking and SAR. I doubt there will be any piracy or secuirty issues

    The North Sea Route cuts 14 days off the trip from Asia to the EU and 14 days back... there is going to be a lot of traffic going through there when it is an option and now bottlenecks like a certain canal which costs money to navigate.

    If so Russian subs or aircraft can take out any threats.

    How does a sub or an aircraft board a ship to search for contraband?

    They are already experimenting with basing MIG-31s in the Arctic.

    Those are to deal with US AEGIS class cruisers trying to swot down Russian ICBMs on their way to the US and any Russian bombers going that way.

    Russia will DOMINATE the Arctic because really, they are the premier Arctic nation.

    The NSR is their territorial waters so they are really only dominating their own territory... like any country would.

    No one else has enough real interest to do so.

    As temperatures rise and ice becomes less of an issue interest will increase regarding mining for minerals and energy... it has been neglected up until now because it has been inaccessible... but that is changing.

    The fleet of Nuclear ice breakers, patrol ships and nuclear subs means Russia dominates the Arctic today. Russia is much better off investing in bases like they have in Syria, one in Venezuela would be ideal, and maybe they can build one in Vietnam.

    Bases in democracies are vulnerable to regime change colour revolutions... a decent fleet can go anywhere and operate for long periods without needing friendly ports... much more powerful and flexible... it carries an air force and an air defence force with it... as well as a serious strike capability too.

    They are already building two helicopter carriers in the 40K ton weight range so they will need Destroyer sized ships to operate and protect them anyway... and if you are going to have destroyers and helicopter carriers it is not much of a stretch to go for a fixed wing CVN and some cruisers... not necessarily as big as the Slavas and Kirovs but very powerfully armed.
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    Post  mnztr Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:03 am

    Ok I say Russia does not need a vast navy because it has airpower, and when I say Russia cannot "conventionally" (meaning ship for ship)  match the USN in size and scope powerwise, your first retort on how they can defeat carrier task forces is air power. That is what I mean!! geez louise. The cost for Russia to build a navy the size of the USN does not make sense.

    As for growth by trading with Russia, many countries have done so and not progressed. While many nations like Japan, Taiwan, S. Korea, etc etc HAVE benfitted from trading with the West and advanced nicely. The BIGGEST problem with Russian is that even its own people largely want to leave. You cannot advance your nation when your young people most dream of moving away. Russia has had very little success in manufacturing commercial goods, you cannot build an economy on the MIC. MIC and Oil, that is pretty much the Russian economy. Which I have always found very puzzling when you have such a highly cultured and brilliant population.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:54 pm

    mnztr wrote:They cannot go toe to toe with the USN in a conventional sense
    GarryB wrote:Course they can, but I agree they wont

    They can't

    The moment they leave range of their coastal assets they will get stomped

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    Post  LMFS Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:54 pm

    They can't, but they will. Why on earth do you think they are creating ocean going ships, the 22350M , restoring the Nakhimov and the rest of the fleet? Tsirkon is the enabler, further down the road a fleet will be created to be able to deter USN anywhere. They are not so defeatist not to even try, because of USN.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:52 pm

    LMFS wrote:They can't, but they will. Why on earth do you think they are creating ocean going ships, the 22350M , restoring the Nakhimov and the rest of the fleet? Tsirkon is the enabler, further down the road a fleet will be created to be able to deter USN anywhere. They are not so defeatist not to even try, because of USN.

    Further down the road

    But not now as Garry claims

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    Post  LMFS Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:35 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Further down the road

    But not now as Garry claims

    The issue is to avoid the "preventive suicide" for which some advocate here, of not developing the VMF because, come on, there is a USN you will never match, so why even bother, better stay within your borders and not mess with the big boys. VMF may not be ready to take on the USN at any place of the world ocean today, but the USN is also not ready to defend the Tsirkon in a couple of years from now, so this decade a tense balance will develop in which the former modernizes many crucial ships and develops the ocean fleet full speed, while the later scrambles to find an answer to Russian hypersonic weapons. The deterring effort the USN exerts on the development of competitors by their mere existence is their trump card and something the VMF should constantly try undermine, not reinforce.

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    Post  Backman Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:29 am

    mnztr wrote:Ok I say Russia does not need a vast navy because it has airpower, and when I say Russia cannot "conventionally" (meaning ship for ship)  match the USN in size and scope powerwise, your first retort on how they can defeat carrier task forces is air power. That is what I mean!! geez louise. The cost for Russia to build a navy the size of the USN does not make sense.

    As for growth by trading with Russia, many countries have done so and not progressed. While many nations like Japan, Taiwan, S. Korea, etc etc HAVE benfitted from trading with the West and advanced nicely. The BIGGEST problem with Russian is that even its own people largely want to leave. You cannot advance your nation when your young people most dream of moving away. Russia has had very little success in manufacturing commercial goods, you cannot build an economy on the MIC. MIC and Oil, that is pretty much the Russian economy. Which I have always found very puzzling when you have such a highly cultured and brilliant population.

    This is such a BS narrative. Russia is way more than MIC and oil.

    Yandex is the biggest tech start-up in Europe. Kaspersky is the biggest anti virus company in Europe. Nginx is one of the biggest web server companies in the world.

    Russia makes all kinds of consumer goods. It's all mostly exported to the post Soviet space.

    Just because of the strange relationship that the US made with China , we all see everything made in China and assume that every other country is backward and makes nothing because we don't see it on our shelves.

    Clinton gave China most favored nation status under WTO in the 90's. It was all part of the regime change plan. Trade with them and they will become like us. Russia wasn't even in the WTO till the late 2000's. Nevermind MFN status. Why would it want that anyway

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    Post  Arrow Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:49 am

    ndex is the biggest tech start-up in Europe. Kaspersky is the biggest anti virus company in Europe. Nginx is one of the biggest web server companies in the world. wrote:

    And it doesn't stop there. They build the most nuclear power plants in the world, they sell great Rostelmash agricultural machines, they have excellent CNC machines, medical equipment, they build huge icebreakers, huge ice class gas tanks, their own processors, they have their own automotive industry, new MS-21 passenger planes, and aero engines for them. Certainly many more. Russia has a diversified economy in full swing, and it is more real than the USA. Laughing

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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:11 am

    Ok I say Russia does not need a vast navy because it has airpower, and when I say Russia cannot "conventionally" (meaning ship for ship) match the USN in size and scope powerwise, your first retort on how they can defeat carrier task forces is air power. That is what I mean!! geez louise. The cost for Russia to build a navy the size of the USN does not make sense.

    Their Air Power and their Army will keep Russia safe and protected from outside enemies, but with just those and some corvettes they are isolated and vulnerable because on their own there is no potential to grow and develop.

    The Russian Navy should not be built up to fight and defeat the US Navy... Fuck the US Navy... I could care less about those homos.

    Building up the Russian Navy is about being able to trade with any country on the planet without the west being able to block you... right now Russia can defend its airspace but it can't really do shit to help an ally like Cuba or Venezuela or Brazil and there is no point in building ties with Argentina if the west goes in and starts a coup and turns the country against you.

    If the Russian Navy can't reach a country there is no way it will risk trading with Russia because the US Navy will certainly punish them for it... and what is Russia going to do to stop them... with all those planes and satellites and MPAs?


    As for growth by trading with Russia, many countries have done so and not progressed.

    Russia has never had a strong global capable navy and has certainly never used to to secure good trade links to countries.

    While many nations like Japan, Taiwan, S. Korea, etc etc HAVE benfitted from trading with the West and advanced nicely.

    Those countries are pathetic.... Japan is a pussy that does as it is told, and South Korea is no better.

    And Taiwan just did what China did... US investment does wonders sometimes, but the political reasons for the success is pretty clear... Iran was in a good place when owned by the CIA, yet the actual Iranian people didn't benefit that much ultimately did they?

    Germany is still Washingtons bitch and can't say no to the US regarding Germanys energy security...

    Pussies.

    The BIGGEST problem with Russian is that even its own people largely want to leave. You cannot advance your nation when your young people most dream of moving away.

    You seem very confident of that opinion... so what exactly stopping them from leaving?

    I would think well educated skilled people like the Russians would have no problem getting citizenship in other countries...

    Russia has had very little success in manufacturing commercial goods, you cannot build an economy on the MIC.

    For someone who visits this site your ignorance is very disappointing.

    China makes most western commercial goods, why would Russia need to compete with China?

    The west has enormous trade deficits with China because China makes most of their consumer items... is that why people in the west want to leave and go and live in China?

    MIC and Oil, that is pretty much the Russian economy.

    Food exports exceeded military exports by quite a margin...

    Which I have always found very puzzling when you have such a highly cultured and brilliant population.

    Don't you understand that their consumer products are not sold where you live so why do you think you would have heard of them?

    How many New Zealand brands do you know about?

    Does that mean New Zealand does not make anything either?

    If Russian companies don't export products to your country why would they bother paying good money to advertise their products to you... someone who can't buy their products...

    The moment they leave range of their coastal assets they will get stomped

    By whom?

    I have seen lots of photos of Russian ships sailing past UK waters but no information about anyone being stomped.

    I would think any ships or subs that left Russian waters would not go alone nor with their eyes closed... I am sure there would be plenty who would like to take a swing but Russian ships tend to be able to defend themselves from the weak subsonic anti ship weapons the west tends to use, but how would they go receiving the response?

    They are not so defeatist not to even try, because of USN.

    It will take 10-20 years before they are a fully global modern Navy... I wonder if the USN will still exist?


    But not now as Garry claims

    Russian ships leave Russian ports quite often and have never been stomped AFAIK.

    Clinton gave China most favored nation status under WTO in the 90's. It was all part of the regime change plan. Trade with them and they will become like us. Russia wasn't even in the WTO till the late 2000's. Nevermind MFN status. Why would it want that anyway

    Ironically Kissenger suggested using Russia to counter the growth of China in a symmetric way that China was used during the Cold War to counter the Soviet Union.

    But that ship has sailed... it seems Putin has finally given up trying to pander to the west for his Eurasian continent from the Pacific to the Atlantic...
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:By whom?

    I have seen lots of photos of Russian ships sailing past UK waters but no information about anyone being stomped.

    I would think any ships or subs that left Russian waters would not go alone nor with their eyes closed... I am sure there would be plenty who would like to take a swing but Russian ships tend to be able to defend themselves from the weak subsonic anti ship weapons the west tends to use, but how would they go receiving the response?

    .....

    Russian ships leave Russian ports quite often and have never been stomped AFAIK....


    This is limpest dick strawman BS fanboyism I have seen ever

    They leave quite often?

    Estonian speedboats often leave their ports and pass Russian ones without getting stomped which would according to you mean that Estonia is more powerful than Russia

    If not then why don't Russians stomp them? What are they afraid of?



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    Post  mnztr Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    The issue is to avoid the "preventive suicide" for which some advocate here, of not developing the VMF because, come on, there is a USN you will never match, so why even bother, better stay within your borders and not mess with the big boys. VMF may not be ready to take on the USN at any place of the world ocean today, but the USN is also not ready to defend the Tsirkon in a couple of years from now, so this decade a tense balance will develop in which the former modernizes many crucial ships and develops the ocean fleet full speed, while the later scrambles to find an answer to Russian hypersonic weapons. The deterring effort the USN exerts on the development of competitors by their mere existence is their trump card and something the VMF should constantly try undermine, not reinforce.

    The correct goal to shoot for is to develop assymetic threats that can neutralize USNs and other navies power. In the past we saw how KH-22 and 31 did this, now there is Kinzhal and Tsirkon. An Oscar class with Granit missiles could take on a CBG now with 24 Tsirkons a single Gorshkov can do this. The bigger the USN gets the more targets for Russian equalizing weapons.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:06 am

    This is limpest dick strawman BS fanboyism I have seen ever

    They leave quite often?

    Estonian speedboats often leave their ports and pass Russian ones without getting stomped which would according to you mean that Estonia is more powerful than Russia

    If not then why don't Russians stomp them? What are they afraid of?

    You seem to think the US rules the waves... piracy is a problem in lots of places... could it be that they are not omnipotent and all powerful?

    A Russian ship leaving Russian waters is not blind.... Russian recon systems and services will be able to tell them what is out and about... are you suggesting a Russian corvette passing the 2,000km point from Russian waters will immediately be pounced upon by 10 US carrier groups with no warning and with no chance to launch any weapons of its own?

    I would think even a corvette would get the respect of most western opposing vessels if only for the fact that those 8 missile tubes can do serious damage to them too.

    The simple fact is that even the smallest and weakest Russian ship has decent air defence capability and serious attack capacity to back that up too.

    No minor country would take a swing on its own without thinking it is seriously backed up... which would probably be quite visible to Russian intelligence at the time... which means that Corvette might have a few other platforms above and below the water as escorts... or are they fucking stupid?

    The west has vastly more ships than Russia has, but if they amass them to stomp anyone they become vulnerable to a submarine launched nuclear armed torpedo detonated in their midst... let alone an Onyx or supersonic Kalibr.

    The correct goal to shoot for is to develop assymetic threats that can neutralize USNs and other navies power.

    They need complete mobile forces that can operate anywhere independently of Russia for periods of months at a time. Thousands of Corvettes just wont cut it... in the same way that just having thousands of pistols will be cheaper and simpler than having pistols and SMGs and rifles and machine guns and rocket launchers.

    An Oscar class with Granit missiles could take on a CBG now with 24 Tsirkons a single Gorshkov can do this. The bigger the USN gets the more targets for Russian equalizing weapons.

    Yeah, but the role has changed from defeating the west and imposing communism on the rest of the world, to making the west really not want to tangle with or interfere with Russian business globally using military force, while supporting Russian and allied countries commercial shipping and trade around the world.

    No, that doesn't mean world police, or controlling all the seas and oceans of the world at once, but it does mean being able to send a group of ships to a conflict zone to influence things in Russias favour or send them to an area before the conflict starts to prevent the west from turning a potential trade partner.

    They don't need a USN sized force of 100 cruisers and however many destroyers and 10 aircraft carriers etc etc.

    The boost in trade should help pay for the fleet expansion...

    Look at the US getting together with Japan and South Korea and Australia and India to try to block chinas trade lanes to Europe through the Malyarka straights (or whatever they are called).

    When the North Sea Route through Russian waters don't you think those assholes will try to do the same... they already tried to sail 2km inside Russian waters claiming international navigation rules let them do that... imagine the shit they are going to try in the arctic... do you think corvettes will be of any use in such a situation...
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    Post  mnztr Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    They need complete mobile forces that can operate anywhere independently of Russia for periods of months at a time. Thousands of Corvettes just wont cut it... in the same way that just having thousands of pistols will be cheaper and simpler than having pistols and SMGs and rifles and machine guns and rocket launchers.

    An Oscar class with Granit missiles could take on a CBG now with 24 Tsirkons a single Gorshkov can do this. The bigger the USN gets the more targets for Russian equalizing weapons.

    Yeah, but the role has changed from defeating the west and imposing communism on the rest of the world, to making the west really not want to tangle with or interfere with Russian business globally using military force, while supporting Russian and allied countries commercial shipping and trade around the world.


    I don't thing having this type of task force is realistic. If anyone is worth helping they need to provide a base for Russia. The US has a massive network of bases to sustain operations, and that is really only because no one of significance has tried to oppose them.

    Interference with Russian commercial business is more effetively done by sanctions, if they actually start to interdict Russian ships, Russia can do a lot of its own interdiction.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:24 am

    mnztr wrote:I don't thing having this type of task force is realistic. If anyone is worth helping they need to provide a base for Russia. The US has a massive network of bases to sustain operations, and that is really only because no one of significance has tried to oppose them.

    Interference with Russian commercial business is more effetively done by sanctions, if they actually start to interdict Russian ships, Russia can do a lot of its own interdiction.

    To sustain those bases you need the navy in the first place...
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    Post  mnztr Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:27 am

    LMFS wrote:
    mnztr wrote:I don't thing having this type of task force is realistic. If anyone is worth helping they need to provide a base for Russia. The US has a massive network of bases to sustain operations, and that is really only because no one of significance has tried to oppose them.

    Interference with Russian commercial business is more effetively done by sanctions, if they actually start to interdict Russian ships, Russia can do a lot of its own interdiction.

    To sustain those bases you need the navy in the first place...

    Yes its a chicken and egg deal. You cannot mount sustained ops without bases and you cannot have bases without a navy. This is why Russia now has overseas naval bases in Syria, Vietnam and now Sudan (I think this one is quite new) I suspect they will have one in either Cuba or Venezulela again. But if you look at the economic ramifications of being in Russias orbit, the price paid by Cuba is really appalling.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:35 am

    Source: frigates of the modernized project 22350 will be able to carry hypersonic weapons

    According to the interlocutor of the agency, the frigates "Admiral Amelko" and "Admiral Chichagov" will be able to carry a total of 32 cruise missiles

    MOSCOW, February 16. / TASS /. The frigates of the modernized project 22350 "Admiral Amelko" and "Admiral Chichagov" will become carriers of hypersonic weapons and will be capable of carrying a total of 32 cruise missiles. A source in the shipbuilding industry informed TASS about this.

    "The pair [frigates Admiral Amelko and Admiral Chichagov] will be able to perform tasks that are performed by" classic "serial ships of this project. They have increased ammunition. There is a possibility of installing hypersonic weapons," he said.

    According to him, "according to the contract, they will each have four universal shipborne firing complexes (UKSK), and this series of ships will continue." Each UKSK is designed for eight Kalibr-NK and / or Onyx cruise missiles, and in the future - Zircon. "Onyx" and "Zircon" are designed and manufactured by Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya.

    TASS has no official confirmation of this information.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10707043

    Apparently not 3 but 4 UKSK in the new modification of the 22350...

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    Post  mnztr Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:46 am

    I wonder if it will be longer or if they will replace some of the SAMs.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:52 am

    I don't thing having this type of task force is realistic. If anyone is worth helping they need to provide a base for Russia.

    The US built a nice base in Cam Rahn Bay in Vietnam... but then their side lost and the Soviet Navy went in to use it... much like if Russia had done nothing in the Crimea then HATO and the US would probably have moved their ships in to Sevastopol...

    The problem is that such bases are much more expensive than any carrier group and subject to change of ownership either from war or simply a coup.

    And even then having a friendly port you can operate from means nothing if you only have corvettes to operate there.... who is going to build you a port for Frigates and Corvettes?

    The US has a massive network of bases to sustain operations, and that is really only because no one of significance has tried to oppose them.

    They do but that is part of their world police complex... and economically it is killing them.

    Interference with Russian commercial business is more effetively done by sanctions, if they actually start to interdict Russian ships, Russia can do a lot of its own interdiction.

    The situation in Georgia told the Russians that they cannot rely on the international community to help... even when they are clearly right... and also the support the US provided to Georgia... a country they took as cannon fodder to Afghanistan and Iraq... was pathetic and useless because their navy could not reach... now they could have sent army forces or air power via Turkey which is right next door... but it seems their best option was still their navy because it would be a more complete and useful force... the Georgian conflict left the US in the same boat so to speak as the Russians found themselves in Serbia/Kosovo.... just words and not force.

    It would be cheaper and more useful (more mobile and independent) to build destroyers and cruisers and aircraft carriers... than to try to pick some countries and either build new ports for them or ask them to upgrade ports for you... with the promise of future protection.

    You don't become a world power and then build a navy.... it happens the other way around.

    You cannot mount sustained ops without bases and you cannot have bases without a navy.

    Of course you can mount sustained ops without bases... it is just easier if you do have local support... They have support tankers as shown in the Auxiliary Ships thread that carry fuel and food and fresh water to maintain other ships on location for long periods... such vessels could also support oil and gas tanker operations delivering energy around the world too.

    This is why Russia now has overseas naval bases in Syria, Vietnam and now Sudan (I think this one is quite new) I suspect they will have one in either Cuba or Venezulela again

    Russian troops in Syria still have a job to do so having air and naval bases makes sense. They have a new base in Sudan but I don't know of any Russian base in Vietnam that is currently being used, nor in Venezuela or Cuba at the moment.

    Of course they don't need Actual bases... just good relations with countries would be good enough where they can go in to port and receive fuel and water and food supplies and maybe fly in a replacement crew perhaps...

    But if you look at the economic ramifications of being in Russias orbit, the price paid by Cuba is really appalling.

    The price paid by Cuba was for saying no to the US... not for saying yes to the Soviet Union... Iran is not best friends with Russia or the Soviet Union and it gets the same treatment essentially... as does North Korea...

    The price Cuba pays and is still paying reflects more on the US than anyone else.

    I wonder if it will be longer or if they will replace some of the SAMs.

    Maybe they have shifted a few other things around to fit more in essentially the same space.

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    Post  Arrow Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 am

    So Admiral Amelko, Admiral Chichagov will be 24 VLS USKS and Admiral Yumashev, Admiral Spiridonov will be 32 VLS USKS Shocked If they leave 32 VLS for SAM for that, it will total 64 VLS.This is the same as the Chinese Type 052 destroyer, which is almost twice as large.
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    Post  marcellogo Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:42 am

    Arrow wrote:So Admiral Amelko, Admiral Chichagov will be 24 VLS USKS and Admiral Yumashev, Admiral Spiridonov will be 32 VLS USKS Shocked If they leave 32 VLS for SAM for that, it will total 64 VLS.This is the same as the Chinese Type 052 destroyer, which is almost twice as large.

    Yes but it not the age of Sail anymore in which category of a military ship is determined by the number of guns then and VLS now.

    A modern surface combatant ship is a complex system, encompassing electronics, sensors and Helicopters.
    You can put same modules on a Karakurt, a Gorshkov and on Nakhimov, obviously in different numbersbut not same sensors but also same live spaces
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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:09 am

    They can always make them 5m longer to fit another 2 uksk.

    135m is way too small.

    Maybe they will use the 1x4 UKSK at mid ship where there is some place left and unused.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:14 am

    If thier corvettes outmatch enemy frigates and frigates humiliate enemy destroyers then I look forward to seeing what thier heavy nuclear cruisers will look like, I am guessing they will have the ability to wipe out countries single handedly.

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