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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:09 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:
    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    Hole wrote:Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 13-92010
    Adm. Golovko

    Wow. The third ship is progressing quick. The first ship took 10 years to build. Pretty long for a frigate.

    It didn't take 10 years to build, it took 10 years for the sub systems to get unfucked.

    Too many people in general first blame shipyards, while they're inefficient, they don't have problem cutting metal and welding when they're actually paid on time. The vast majority of time, its the subsystems that take forever to construct and finalize.

    And there was that whole Ukranian turbine issue.....

    The Ukrainian turbine issue should not have been an issue. China been making large turbines for Type 052C/D destroyers since late 90s and Russia has way better turbine industry than China.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:18 am

    If the Russians stopped buying Ukrainian gas turbines then the Ukrainian economy probably would have collapsed a lot sooner and they could then blame Russia for that.

    Russian purchasing GT engines for ships as well as rocket parts and tank parts and aircraft parts and aircraft as well as helicopter engines kept Ukraine stable and relatively friendly till Nuland and her cookies convinced them they were better off on their own.

    By delaying the split Russia was able to grow and develop and improve in a range of other areas... if Ukraine had stopped supplying anything in the mid 1990s Russia would have been in much more trouble because it would have had to pour money and energy into making those things as well as everything else it had to make from scratch.

    But doing it in 2014 means they have much better production technology and tooling and more money to develop not just copy replacement engines but improved new generation engines that are much better than what the Ukraine was making.

    More importantly now because they make everything themselves because things from the EU they were using like lighting and seats on their ships they now make everything themselves and can therefore sell to anyone they please without risk of sanction or some country or other objecting... it also means all the profit goes to Russian companies.

    The Su-30MKI is the most expensive Flanker but mainly because of the French gear the Indians insisted on being fitted... it costs more than the Su-35 costs...

    The engine issue was a pain in the ass, but now that it is sorted it is actually a bonus now... buying Ukrainian made engines meant buying US dollars to pay for it... now they can deal in roubles.

    For now only Palma CIWS on Vietnamese frigates use Sosna missiles.

    Now that Pine is entering Russian Army service I would think naval Sosna should not be far behind... these are relatively cheap laser beam riding missiles that are very fast and very capable... about 12 seconds to its flight range of 8km or so.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:38 am

    Soviet Union had all the naval turbines produced in Nikolaev. There were talks about opening a second naval gas turbine facility in the far east, but it was never realized.

    So when those idiots gorbachev, Yeltsin etc allowed Russian cities with strategic industries to end up in a foreign country, Russia remained without local production of naval gas turbine.

    At that time there were not many ships ordered (the navy was too big to be maintained by 90s Russia) and the russian naval industry was used to work with Zorya Mashproekt (the naval gas turbine manufacturer in Nikolaev).

    If they had put the effort (e.g. time and money) they could have "navalized" the PS90 and NK32 engines. If I am not mistaken GE and Rolls-Royce also have naval gas turbine derived from their aero gas turbine engines.

    Probably it was not worth at that time, since there were other priorities and no large ship planned to be built for years.

    Later they developed a new series of naval gas turbines the current one that Saturn is producing).

    If I am not mistaken they were a joint project of Zorya Mashproekt and Saturn, with initial production in Nikolaev but eventual secondary production site also in Russia.

    Maidan only made this phase happen earlier.

    The only disadvantage is that some ship series based on older engines cannot be produced without extensive redesign (like the grigorovich/ Taiwar class, that is an evolution of the Krivak class frigate) as it was not cost effective for Russia to establish production of all of the older engines.

    This is not a huge problem as new ships classes are better.
    Of course they could do a cheaper version of Gorshkov class with older radars and weapon systems (like the ones in grigorovich) but it would not make much sense, and they would need to spend money to see how the various systems work together anyway.

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    Post  hoom on Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:41 pm

    Would be interested to see any info you might have of anti armour use for Pine... it moves quickly but not anti armour quick...
    My bad it seems I was confusing Hermes with Sosna for some reason Embarassed

    But anti armor is generally much slower than SAMs, a lot of ATGMs have top speeds under 200m/s
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:28 am

    My bad it seems I was confusing Hermes with Sosna for some reason

    They have a habit of upgrading and modifying missiles... the Pine has a solid rocket booster that accelerates it to 1.3km per second which is at the low end of a tank gun fire APFSDS round, but a missile core 2m long of say 10kgs of DU, plus a HE filled nose... it is laser beam riding so within 5km direct impact (the Vikhr has a CEP of 80cm at 8km so the guidance is very accurate... so 50% of missiles will hit inside a 0.8m circle around the point of aim at 8km and therefore 99% of missiles will hit inside a 2.4m wide circle (1.2m radius)).

    When the target is hard armour which could be any vehicle from tank and down the penetration performance should be pretty good except against frontal tank armour, and against soft targets like aircraft the HE charge should be enough but the added bonus of a DU metal rod penetrating any helicopter or aircraft completely... when used against soft targets you could place HE charged to make the penetrator rod tumble on impact...

    The Vikhr uses a fully dual purpose warhead with HEAT and HEFRAG designed to engage armoured and air targets... the Hokum has a switch the pilot can operate before launch to select HEAT or proximity fused HE Frag for ground or air targets...

    But anti armor is generally much slower than SAMs, a lot of ATGMs have top speeds under 200m/s

    Yes, HEAT warhead weapons don't really benefit from missile velocity directly, and early models were wire draggers so 120-180m/s was a common flight speed for those. Newer laser beam riding missiles used by the Russians like Kornet and Pine/Sosna can be much much faster which reduces the amount of time during the engagement.

    With is low drag body and large solid rocket booster the PINE/SOSNA looks like a rather more sleek Pantsir/Tunguska/Hermes missile... it only takes 10-12 seconds to reach 10km range targets.

    The new Hermes missiles will have powered missile sections, which is all new too... and will enable it to manouver and evade defence systems on its way to its target... Smile
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    Post  Sujoy on Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:10 am

    GarryB wrote:The Su-30MKI is the most expensive Flanker but mainly because of the French gear the Indians insisted on being fitted... it costs more than the Su-35 costs...
    Gears that could not be exported to India. Since India never bothered to design those systems in house they had to be imported from France and Israel. Su 35 also has/had french gear.

    That being said, the original Su-30 MKI used the Mission computer, Display Processor, RWR and other avionics developed for the LCA Tech Demo. Today's Su30 MKIs will receive far more advanced systems again developed via the LCA, parallel programs, as upgrades. The one thing that the IAF has yet not implemented in the Su30, but likely will, over time, are NLOS SATCOM datalinks. These will allow the Su30 MKIs to act as distributed mission controllers and soak up, retransmit sensor data they pick up.


    GarryB wrote:The new Hermes missiles will have powered missile sections, which is all new too... and will enable it to manouver and evade defence systems on its way to its target...  Smile
    Older Russian missiles also had a powered missile section, isn't it? Or are you referring to the development of a brand new powered missile section?

    In missiles the controller section converts the power of the controller drive motor to power for the three-channel variable-speed motors. These motors operate when a signal is received from the amplifiers.
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    Post  medo on Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:34 am

    Sujoy wrote:Gears that could not be exported to India. Since India never bothered to design those systems in house they had to be imported from France and Israel. Su 35 also has/had french gear.

    No, Su-35 is fully Russian from the beginning. Su-30SM have some French gear as it was made from export Su-30MKM. Now it is fully Russian as well.

    That being said, the original Su-30 MKI used the Mission computer, Display Processor, RWR and other avionics developed for the LCA Tech Demo. Today's Su30 MKIs will receive far more advanced systems again developed via the LCA, parallel programs, as upgrades. The one thing that the IAF has yet not implemented in the Su30, but likely will, over time, are NLOS SATCOM datalinks. These will allow the Su30 MKIs to act as distributed mission controllers and soak up, retransmit sensor data they pick up.

    Yes and we see results. RWR doesn't work, communications are jammed, no data link, etc. SATCOM data link is nice idea, but does India have communication satellites? Most probably it will be another lemon from Israel and dependent on US satellites, which could be turned off for you, when you will need them.

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    Post  Sujoy on Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:09 pm

    medo wrote:RWR doesn't work, communications are jammed
    There is no evidence that Su 30MKI's RWR didn't work and that its communications were jammed

    medo wrote:no data link, etc.
    Su 30MKIs are already datalinked, they have the Polyot which allows flights of Flankers to share targeting information, designate, attack. Maybe the challenge was to establish datalinks between Su 30MKI and other aircraft namely Mig 21 Bison. However, IAF is now standardizing on it's new Operational Data Link.

    medo wrote: SATCOM data link is nice idea, but does India have communication satellites?
    Yes! GSAT-7A

    https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/India_launches_military_communications_satellite_999.html

    medo wrote:Most probably it will be another lemon from Israel and dependent on US satellites, which could be turned off for you, when you will need them.
    Has Russia ever transferred such technologies to a foreign country? There were local rules in Russia (like many other countries) that forbids the export of SATCOM data for several platforms.

    So India might not get this technology from Russia either. GLONASS signals made available for BRAHMOS is a different ball game.

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    Post  PhSt on Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:40 am

    Russian tech corporation delivers 1st fully domestic power unit for latest frigates

    MOSCOW, November 24. /TASS/. The United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of the state tech corporation Rostec) has delivered the first completely domestic M55R diesel/gas turbine power unit for the latest Project 22350 frigates, UEC Deputy CEO Viktor Polyakov announced on Tuesday.

    "The first power unit was dispatched in November. The dispatch of the second unit is scheduled for the first half of December. Therefore, our partners, the United Shipbuilding Corporation and the Severnaya Shipyard, will get a full-fledged power plant for the ship that will consist of two power units," the deputy chief executive said.

    The United Engine Corporation started R&D work on seaborne gas turbine engines in 2014, Polyakov said. "We have confirmed that Russia can produce diesel/gas turbine engines independently. We have fully acquired the competence, which Russia previously lacked. As of today, the United Engine Corporation has the scientific and technical potential to develop, produce, test, install on ships and provide support for the whole range of diesel/ gas turbine engines during their entire service life," he stressed.

    Russia’s state hi-tech corporation Rostec is consistently implementing the programs of developing advanced engines of all types, Rostec First Deputy CEO Vladimir Artyakov said. "Creating seaborne gas turbine power units and assemblies is a science-intensive hi-tech process. Only few producers in the world possess such competence. We are ready to meet the requirements of Russian shipbuilders for new gas turbine engines. The second power unit of this series is set for delivery in December 2020," he said.

    The Project 22350 multi-purpose frigates like the Admiral Gorshkov that have been floated out are equipped with imported power units. The first fully domestic power plant is designated for the Project 22350 third frigate under construction for the Russian Navy at the Severnaya Shipyard in St. Petersburg.

    Project 22350 frigates are based on stealth technology and are designated to conduct combat operations in the distant oceanic area against enemy surface ships and submarines and repel air attack weapons both on their own and as part of a naval group.

    All of Project 22350 frigates carry Kalibr-NK and (or) Oniks cruise missiles. The warships of the Project’s first version are armed with two universal launchers of eight Kalibr-NK and (or) Oniks missiles.

    Project 22350 frigates are expected to become the Russian Navy’s most advanced warships in their class. These frigates displace 4,500 tonnes and can develop a speed of 29 knots. They are also armed with Poliment-Redut air defense missile systems.

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:03 am

    The third frigate of project 22350 will strengthen the Northern Fleet in 2021

    The third frigate of Project 22350 - "Admiral Golovko" - is planned to be accepted into the Northern Fleet by the end of 2021. This was announced on Wednesday, December 9, by the Commander of the Northern Fleet, Vice Admiral Alexander Moiseev , in an interview with Krasnaya Zvezda .

    "In May of this year, another frigate of project 22350, Admiral Golovko, was launched at the Severnaya Verf enterprise. It is expected that by the end of 2021 it will become part of the fleet and become the third frigate of this project," he said.


    He stressed that this will significantly increase the combat capabilities of the naval forces of the fleet and various groupings.

    Let's remind that now the frigates of project 22350 " Admiral Gorshkov " and " Admiral Kasatonov " are serving in the Northern Fleet .

    The frigate "Admiral Golovko" was laid down in February 2012. In May 2020, during the launch of the ship, representatives of Severnaya Verf claimed that the ship would be handed over to the Navy in 2022.

    "Admiral Golovko" will become the first ship of Project 22350 equipped with a Russian gas turbine unit (GTU) - frigates "Admiral Gorshkov" and "Admiral Kasatonov" use GTU manufactured by a Ukrainian enterprise as afterburners " Zorya-Mashproekt ".

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/СеверныйФлот68/

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    Post  Arrow on Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:08 am

    These few 22,350 frigates are still not enough if Russia wants to count on the seas and oceans. From the side of the Pacific, it is not even able to compete with Japan, only with Japan, not to mention Korea and China.

    I wonder if they will start the project 22350M? This ship will already be a destroyer.

    Meanwhile, France already has a project for another nuclear carrier. Which shows how still Russia is still lagging behind the West in terms of the navy.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:08 pm

    ...He stressed that this will significantly increase the combat capabilities of the naval forces of the fleet and various groupings....

    This is bullshit

    It will not significantly increase combat capability of anything, it will barely plug the hole created by presence of obsolete Soviet leftovers

    Number of orders and production pace is still a pathetic joke and retarded statements like these are making their entire Navy look like gang of morons




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    Post  walle83 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:10 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    Hole wrote:Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 13-92010
    Adm. Golovko

    Wow. The third ship is progressing quick. The first ship took 10 years to build. Pretty long for a frigate.

    Well so far it has taken 8 years to complete the 3th ship, and it still hasnt started trails. By the time she enters the Navy it probably will be around 10 years.
    The first 4 ships probably will take a minimum 8 years to complete.
    The question is how fast the second batch of ships will be constructed.
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:18 pm

    If you consider that in the meantime sabotage by Ukrostan plus development of new world-class gas turbines and air defence system happened, it is a pretty short time...

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:36 pm

    LMFS wrote:If you consider that in the meantime sabotage by Ukrostan plus development of new world-class gas turbines and air defence system happened, it is a pretty short time...
    Besides that these 'frigates' can destroy a Chinese/American destroyer quicker from a far greater range than they could vice-versa thanks to Zircon. The Sinus-nuggets Sino-nuggets should put that in their pipe and smoke it! Razz
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    Post  walle83 on Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:12 am

    LMFS wrote:If you consider that in the meantime sabotage by Ukrostan plus development of new world-class gas turbines and air defence system happened, it is a pretty short time...

    Still, 2 ships in 14 years time, they need to speed things up if they want any larger ships for the North and Pacific Fleets by 2030-35. The Udaloys and the Sovremennys wont be there for ever.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:48 am

    walle83 wrote:Still, 2 ships in 14 years time, they need to speed things up if they want any larger ships for the North and Pacific Fleets by 2030-35. The Udaloys and the Sovremennys wont be there for ever.

    Of course, the building speed until now is not representative of anything. People talk as if in early 2000 Russia's naval industry was in condition of building them and were just waiting hand in hand to be tasked with the order, but it is almost a miracle that they did not end up building stoves like Nykolaev. Those frigate projects are very old and only recently the industry reached the point of actually being able to build them. But this is not seen from the outside. So you may not have any discernible progress for one decade while the capacities are being recreated and the next you have one frigate delivered every year, which is roughly what they are announcing, and they have not even started producing them in two shipyards, which makes sense since only very recently have the serial deliveries of engines for this class started BTW. So yes, 14 or 40 years doesn't matter, if you don't have engines or the systems or the shipyard specialists or the equipment, you cannot build the ship no matter how much time goes by, because their efforts have not been directed into building ships but into obtaining the capacities that will allow them to build. Now that pieces are starting to fall in place, we will see what their real building capacity is.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:04 am

    Russia neither has the budget nor the interest to out produce Japan or China in terms of ships, but now that the propulsion problems have been sorted I would expect they will start orders for more ships which will not have to worry about delays over engine supply and will be good solid designs that they can now start producing in numbers.

    The purpose of the modular design is to make production quicker and easier, so now the design is finalised and they can make engines I would think production will ramp up to give multiple yards production practise while they work on their first destroyers and possibly cruisers too.

    Still, 2 ships in 14 years time, they need to speed things up if they want any larger ships for the North and Pacific Fleets by 2030-35. The Udaloys and the Sovremennys wont be there for ever.

    These are small fully multirole vessels of an order of magnitude more complex than previous corvettes and frigates.

    Previously only cruisers were big enough to carry the variety of weapons to be fully multirole, but now they are doing it on their corvettes.

    Most systems are the same, just that the newer systems for the bigger vessels will either be bigger (propulsion, sonar, radar, guns) or in greater numbers (Redut tubes and UKSK tubes ).

    Even still they don't need an enormous fleet any time soon...

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    Post  walle83 on Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Still, 2 ships in 14 years time, they need to speed things up if they want any larger ships for the North and Pacific Fleets by 2030-35. The Udaloys and the Sovremennys wont be there for ever.

    These are small fully multirole vessels of an order of magnitude more complex than previous corvettes and frigates.

    Previously only cruisers were big enough to carry the variety of weapons to be fully multirole, but now they are doing it on their corvettes.

    Most systems are the same, just that the newer systems for the bigger vessels will either be bigger (propulsion, sonar, radar, guns) or in greater numbers (Redut tubes and UKSK tubes ).

    Even still they don't need an enormous fleet any time soon...

    Small or not, they are the only "larger" vessels buing built at this time.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:22 am

    So you are ignoring the 2 x 30K ton helicopter carriers they are building?

    Now that the engines are ready for production it is just a case of deciding which shipyards you want to start using, with the plan that once they have finished one then some shipyards will continue to build these frigates and corvettes till they have the numbers they want but some shipyards will likely stop after one and then lay down a bigger ship for testing to finalise the shape and size of their new destroyer types...
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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:49 pm

    Not much to see here but anyway...
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 Cirkon22
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 Cirkon23
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 Cirkon24

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    Post  Arrow on Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:13 am

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 18-9310945-gel6tdmzttu

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    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:23 pm

    The frigate "Admiral of the Kasaton Fleet" in Algeria

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 41827410
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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 41833610
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 41841310
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 24 41845610

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    Post  mnztr on Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:20 pm

    Man, Russians design really pretty ships. Even the ship The Drive claimed was ugly is super cool!!!
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    Post  kvs on Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:49 pm

    mnztr wrote:Man, Russians design really pretty ships. Even the ship The Drive claimed was ugly is super cool!!!

    I recall Joan Rivers going on about how Russian women were ugly back during the 1980s. Typical western hate propaganda
    addled, masturbatory pissing.


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