Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

Gone through English Channel https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3559932.html

Previously, the detachment operated in the Mori Firth Bay, fulfilling the tasks of counter-sabotage defense when parked on an unprotected raid and anti-air defense with tracking of airborne targets by radio equipment.

2 contestants for a beauty pageant.

RF consulate in Edinburgh now says bad weather was the reason for Scottish visit:

due to adverse weather conditions was forced to approach the coast of Scotland

https://vz.ru/news/2019/3/8/967537.html

Still unclear if the story is closed. A lot of sarcasm on Balancer. To go 40 km off Scotland and say you're having drills when RF-UK relations are so tense.

On the one hand yes its pretty rude to be that close & doing radar tracking etc.
On the other hand UK saw nothing wrong with having a Type 45 just off Sevastopol doing the same a while back.

Unclear whether the Scottish parliament guy just doesn't know the definition of Territorial Waters or if mislead by poor media 'reporting' claiming they were in UK territorial waters.

Source: Zirkon rocket will be launched from the frigate Admiral Gorshkov at the end of the year

MOSCOW, March 12. / TASS /. At the end of 2019, the Russian hypersonic rocket Zircon will be launched for the first time from a warship, the frigate of the project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov. This was announced on Tuesday Tass source in the military-industrial complex

"At the end of this year, it is planned to begin testing the missile from the sea carrier, the lead frigate of project 22350, Admiral Gorshkov, which is part of the Northern Fleet," the agency’s source said. Earlier tests of the rocket were carried out only from the coastal stand, the source recalled.

TASS does not have official confirmation provided by the source of information.

As Russian President Vladimir Putin said in his message to the Federal Assembly on February 20, the newest Russian hypersonic Zircon rocket can reach speeds of about 9 Machs, and its range can exceed 1 thousand km. The head of state noted that Zircon can destroy both sea and land targets. The president also said that the use of the new rocket is provided from ships and submarines that have already been produced or are being built for Caliber missile systems.

Later, the rear admiral, Candidate of Technical Sciences Vsevolod Khmyrov, told reporters that ships and submarines armed with Zircon could destroy key elements of control, in particular missiles that could be deployed in Europe, within five minutes.

So it can be launched from UKSK on 22350...

hoom wrote:On the one hand yes its pretty rude to be that close & doing radar tracking etc.
On the other hand UK saw nothing wrong with having a Type 45 just off Sevastopol doing the same a while back.

Unclear whether the Scottish parliament guy just doesn't know the definition of Territorial Waters or if mislead by poor media 'reporting' claiming they were in UK territorial waters.

It is a routine NATO propaganda tactic to speak of some military zone (e.g. ADIZ) as if it was territorial and not an ad hoc and
not legally binding construct. The average NATO MSM consumer sap does not have enough focus to pick out the distinction
so this lie is effective.

Reports in the NATO MSM always refer to Russian aircraft or ships being "intercepted" but omit the context that this is in international
airspace of waters. But when Russia intercepts NATO spy planes it is always cast as some sort of dangerous maneuver in international
airspace and cast as harassment. A cheap propaganda circus designed to herd the NATO sheeple.

Speaking about harassment....a P-8 from Sicily went sniffing on Gorshkov's group yesterday. Dropped from 10 km to 150 m over them it made a turn, just as the ships made an interesting turn, possibly an evasive maneuver?





P-8 chart is from Balancer.

Russia is increasing its naval presence in the Mediterranean. Gorshkov's 4 ship squadron could be soon joined with destroyer Severomorsk and submarine Krasnodar that recently transited Bosphorus. Yury Ivanov intelligence ship also sailed from Sevastopol yesterday, and the day before Ropucha Tsezar Kunikov. Admiral Essen is already in the Mediterranean.

A simulation from this morning predicts a rendez vous on Sunday.



Edit: Kunikov returned to Sevastopol

submarine Krasnodar that recently transited Bosphorus

I'll believe it went through the Bosphorus when I see a photo of it there heading South.
Having gone in it can't come out without needing to leave for repair.

There does seem to be a build up for Syrian offensive to liquidate the Al Queda dominated Idlib pocket.

Edit: gonna follow this up on the Kilo thread.

George1 wrote:

Russia develops new frigates capable of carrying nearly 50 cruise missiles - source

The frigates will have a displacement of up to 7,000 tonnes

MOSCOW, March 17. /TASS/. The Northern design bureau has started developing the construction documentation for modernized frigates of Project 22350M capable of carrying up to 48 Kalibr cruise missiles, a source in the defense and production sector told TASS on Sunday.

"The Northern design bureau has completed designing frigates of Project 22350M and is now developing working design documentation for these vessels in line with the customer’s tactical and technical order," the source said.

The frigates will have a displacement of up to 7,000 tonnes. The vessels will also carry Zircon hypersonic cruise missiles.

The new frigates will have a universal automated fire control system for all destruction means. "This will significantly boost their combat capability," the source stressed.

Russia’s Navy currently has in its service the lead ship of project 22350, the Admiral Gorshkov. The first serial Admiral Kasatonov frigate of project 22350 is running trials. These ships have a displacement of 4,500 tonnes, and each of them can carry up to 16 Kalibr cruise missiles.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/1049002

Great News the kalibration/Zirkonization of the Russian Navy should go full speed, 48 missiles in a 7000 tonnes frigate is very impressive
Frigate

7000 tonnes is pretty much same as Udaloi-class.

With​ 50 UKSK cells plus AA VLS cells it would have roughly same number of missiles as Arleigh Burke-class.

If they get this off the ground they will solve many problems for many years to come.

They will definitely need new class name though, this one would be twice the size of Gorshkov.



Although they could easily double the number of cruise missiles on standard Gorshkov simply by replacing main gun with something smaller to free up space. Who the heck needs 130mm gun in this day and age?

75mm is more than plenty. Personally I'd just settle for 57mm for warning shots and let missiles do the rest.

75mm is more than plenty. Personally I'd just settle for 57mm for warning shots and let missiles do the rest.

76mm for Ru navy.

Bug guns are very capable. They can shot down anti ship missiles too. And ships are often at gun range. However 130 mm fir gorshkov is too much. Agree about a 76mm.

Impressive! Let's call it a frigate if we want, but that is a destroyer, or am I missing something??

LMFS wrote:Impressive! Let's call it a frigate if we want, but that is a destroyer, or am I missing something??

48 UKSK-M  -> frigate
112 UKSK-M ->destroyer

now better ?  



So in CSG 1 Lider + 2 Gorskhov-M you can have up to 200 CMs? enough to send UK to middle ages...

PapaDragon wrote:
7000 tonnes is pretty much same as Udaloi-class.

With​ 50 UKSK cells plus AA VLS cells it would have roughly same number of missiles as Arleigh Burke-class.

Though Burke has 90 cells but cells are shared between CM/AAMs. Tomahawks so far are not ASh.So they have 8 Harpoons if Im correct.

PD wrote: Although they could easily double the number of cruise missiles on standard Gorshkov simply by replacing main gun with something smaller to free up space. Who the heck needs 130mm gun in this day and age?

to have relatively cheap 120km range anti-ship/shore bombardment?

https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/vulcano-127mm

So in CSG 1 Lider + 2 Gorskhov-M you can have up to 200 CMs? enough to send UK to middle ages...

The point of Gorshkov (M) is that it gives the Russian navy the ability to do interventions like Syria in distant countries, like Venezuela. The only anti-surface ships they could send right now are Pyotr Velikiy, Ustinov and Ushakov. However sending all of them would leave no capital ships at home. With 6 Gorshkovs (and some Ms) they will be able to send 3 accross the ocean. It should be enough to get the job done and still leave 3 at home.

verkhoturye51 wrote:

So in CSG 1 Lider + 2 Gorskhov-M you can have up to 200 CMs? enough to send UK to middle ages...

The point of Gorshkov (M) is that it gives the Russian navy the ability to do interventions like Syria in distant countries, like Venezuela. The only anti-surface ships they could send right now are Pyotr Velikiy, Ustinov and Ushakov. However sending all of them would leave no capital ships at home. With 6 Gorshkovs (and some Ms) they will be able to send 3 accross the ocean. It should be enough to get the job done and still leave 3 at home.

they wont go alone, ever.  They will be part of expeditionary group.  I can imagine Lider/Orlan  + 2-3 22350-M + auxiliary + UDK/BDK + CV(N)? + 2xHusky/Kazan

BTW Ushakhov is dead only 2 Orlans are left.

With 6 Gorshkovs (and some Ms) they will be able to send 3 accross the ocean. It should be enough to get the job done and still leave 3 at home.

They expressed a need for 20-30 Gorshkov.

they wong go lone, ever. They will be part of expeditionary group. I can imagine Lider/Orlan + 2-3 22350-M + auxiliary + UDK/BDK + CV(N)? + 2xHusky/Kazan

They have none of those ships, only 2 yassen. The rest are not even started.

Huge auxiliary ships are also needed if you want such task force. Not the small tankers we mostly see. I doubt they have it.

Isos wrote:

With 6 Gorshkovs (and some Ms) they will be able to send 3 accross the ocean. It should be enough to get the job done and still leave 3 at home.

They expressed a need for 20-30 Gorshkov.

recently it was talk bout 6-8 22350M what perfectly fits 2-3 CSGs. on top of 8 regular ones.

Isos wrote:

they wont go lone, ever. They will be part of expeditionary group. I can imagine Lider/Orlan + 2-3 22350-M + auxiliary + UDK/BDK + CV(N)? + 2xHusky/Kazan

They have none of those ships, only 2 yassen. The rest are not even started.

Huge auxiliary ships are also needed if you want such task force. Not the small tankers we mostly see but something the size of kuznetsov. I doubt they have it.

[/quote]

22350-M design is no even started

Yasens? 1 in service, 1 since last yer in trials. Next 2 ships comes within 2-3 years. Auxiliary fleet till 2027 should be renewed. No 50,000 tons tankers are planed though

Hmm, 48* Kalibr/Zirkon.

That could be basically just a foredeck redesign converting the separate Redut + UKSK into unified UKSK-M -> practically would not ever carry anything close to 48.
It'd be far short of a Burke but still a comparable armament to the better of the similar size Euro-frigates/Destroyers.
UKSK-M should be compatible with S-400 (& S-500?) missiles -> gains extra range & anti-ballistic capabilities.

But if its 48* UKSK/M and a bunch of Redut cells, we're surely talking another 48-64 -> total 96 or 112 cells (plus probably 2* 32 from Pantsir-Ms) which is at least directly competitive with Burkes/the bigger Asian cousins.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:...

PD wrote: Although they could easily double the number of cruise missiles on standard Gorshkov simply by replacing main gun with something smaller to free up space. Who the heck needs 130mm gun in this day and age?

to have relatively cheap 120km range anti-ship/shore bombardment?

https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/vulcano-127mm

Range of 130mm gun is just 23km at best, not 120.

They have no need for this gun on this type of ship, it's a waste of space.

hoom wrote:Hmm, 48* Kalibr/Zirkon.

That could be basically just a foredeck redesign converting the separate Redut + UKSK into unified UKSK-M -> practically would not ever carry anything close to 48.
It'd be far short of a Burke but still a comparable armament to the better of the similar size Euro-frigates/Destroyers.
UKSK-M should be compatible with S-400 (& S-500?) missiles -> gains extra range & anti-ballistic capabilities.

But if its 48* UKSK/M and a bunch of Redut cells, we're surely talking another 48-64 -> total 96 or 112 cells (plus probably 2* 32 from Pantsir-Ms) which is at least directly competitive with Burkes/the bigger Asian cousins.

I doubt they would design a ship with twice the displacement in that case, they could get 50 just by replacing gun with something smaller to clear space.

This new thing will be packing triple digit number of VLS cells.

I doubt they would design a ship with twice the displacement in that case

As I pointed out a while back the point would be decompressing excessively densely packed equipment which may increase reliability or at least serviceability & increasing autonomy/range, both of which would be useful for a ship intended for long range expeditionary voyages ie carrier escort.

I'm inclined to the more densely armed version but I wouldn't be too surprised to see lesser armament increase for above reasons.

\"GunshipDemocracy wrote:48 UKSK-M  -> frigate
112 UKSK-M ->destroyer

now better ?  

Yeah, your destroyer is actually a cruiser hahaha

hoom wrote:As I pointed out a while back the point would be decompressing excessively densely packed equipment which may increase reliability or at least serviceability & increasing autonomy/range, both of which would be useful for a ship intended for long range expeditionary voyages ie carrier escort.

I'm inclined to the more densely armed version but I wouldn't be too surprised to see lesser armament increase for above reasons.

I think your first impression makes more sense than "decompressing" the ships. They have a clear focus in packing a lot of punch for a given displacement, for obvious reasons of compensating disadvantage in numbers and budget with more firepower per vessel and ton than other navies. And they are pretty damn right, this is the main merit index of a military ship design as far as other characteristics are not suffering as a result. This is a critical enabler for RuN and I don't expect them renouncing to it any time soon.

So IMHO Gorshkov-M will be their equivalent to AB with 48 CMs + additional SAM VLS cells, while Lider will be a cruiser in practical terms, actually unmatched if they go for the NPP in the end. The prospects of the blue water navy look very well to me, if they only manage to build something